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On January 07 2015 05:51 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2015 05:10 Basic wrote:
Due to the start on frog instead of Blue, my room mate and I have been exploiting the smiteless blue by having our own team hard leash our red, killing it with out smite, walking over to the enemy jungle dropping a ward and smiting blue away from them. I fully expect this play to become common place in not too long and for us to see a switch back to blue or red first.
Regards,
Basic That's fairly unlikely to become standard as any lvl1 ward around those places in the river will make that ineffective
It also fails if the enemy jungler for whatever reason pulls golem towards his brush so it is out of range for your smite.
I've had a lot of success with something quite similar.
Whenever I play Lee I start red, kill it with smite and head towards enemy blue and ward jump over the wall to their blue. Either they started krugs so you just take their blue or they started gromp and should be about to finish blue with 100-300hp on blue left. You can either try stealing blue with Q execute or go for the jungler. You should be able to at least force them to flash.
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The flattening of EXP over camps makes early counterjungling slightly less punishing than it used to be, outside of the few truly blue-reliant junglers. As long as you don't actually die (and this is more of a risk at camps 4-6 when an invader has 3 skills and your hp is much lower), you can still catch back up in levels just by doing non-buff camps.
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On January 07 2015 09:22 craaaaack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2015 05:51 Scip wrote:On January 07 2015 05:10 Basic wrote:
Due to the start on frog instead of Blue, my room mate and I have been exploiting the smiteless blue by having our own team hard leash our red, killing it with out smite, walking over to the enemy jungle dropping a ward and smiting blue away from them. I fully expect this play to become common place in not too long and for us to see a switch back to blue or red first.
Regards,
Basic That's fairly unlikely to become standard as any lvl1 ward around those places in the river will make that ineffective It also fails if the enemy jungler for whatever reason pulls golem towards his brush so it is out of range for your smite. I've had a lot of success with something quite similar. Whenever I play Lee I start red, kill it with smite and head towards enemy blue and ward jump over the wall to their blue. Either they started krugs so you just take their blue or they started gromp and should be about to finish blue with 100-300hp on blue left. You can either try stealing blue with Q execute or go for the jungler. You should be able to at least force them to flash.
if you wardjump and then steal blue with q how are you getting out? why not just take q e and walk around to their blue and kill them guaranteed
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It is going to have an impact no matter what I would say. The current state seems to be punishable and with things so fresh in season five, it seems unlikely to stay so static. Perhaps it is drastic to say a switch back to buffs first, but it needs to be respected. In regards to Krugs, there are a few junglers who are clearing so fast that if you take Krugs they have to sit there and wait. Might still be best they are taken, but I am not so sure about it. Also I believe they are patching out the camps being as kiteable as the are now.
Regards,
Basic
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I think you are right to some extent, you just overstated the impact (at first at least). Some sneaky blue buff steals can be a useful cheese strat against blue dependent junglers. Of course, correct warding will prevent it, just like correct scouting stops cheese in sc2. Nevertheless it may sometimes be a gamble worth taking and it would not completely surprise me if someone tries it in a tournament setting (and in soloq any cheese can work - I've seen my share of lvl 1 Nunu buffsteals).
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On January 07 2015 10:27 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2015 09:22 craaaaack wrote:On January 07 2015 05:51 Scip wrote:On January 07 2015 05:10 Basic wrote:
Due to the start on frog instead of Blue, my room mate and I have been exploiting the smiteless blue by having our own team hard leash our red, killing it with out smite, walking over to the enemy jungle dropping a ward and smiting blue away from them. I fully expect this play to become common place in not too long and for us to see a switch back to blue or red first.
Regards,
Basic That's fairly unlikely to become standard as any lvl1 ward around those places in the river will make that ineffective It also fails if the enemy jungler for whatever reason pulls golem towards his brush so it is out of range for your smite. I've had a lot of success with something quite similar. Whenever I play Lee I start red, kill it with smite and head towards enemy blue and ward jump over the wall to their blue. Either they started krugs so you just take their blue or they started gromp and should be about to finish blue with 100-300hp on blue left. You can either try stealing blue with Q execute or go for the jungler. You should be able to at least force them to flash. if you wardjump and then steal blue with q how are you getting out? why not just take q e and walk around to their blue and kill them guaranteed
Walking all the way around makes you arrive after they finished blue, there's no point to it. Also e doesn't help you 1v1 that much besides some lousy damage (no more AS slow). If you got blue you don't need to get out, you just kill the other jungler. Even if you didn't manage to get blue you go for the other jungler, he is at most at 60-70% hp while you are full because of smiting red and only doing one camp. The enemy can't duel you because you are lvl 2 lee with red. So what basically happens is that you either get or don't get blue but the enemy jungler has to flash to get away and is too low to do anything. If the other teams mid is coming for help you should go towards them and try to fight, they wont have hit lvl 3 yet and if your midlaner reacts you turn it into a very easy 2v1.
On January 07 2015 21:01 Prog wrote:
I think you are right to some extent, you just overstated the impact (at first at least). Some sneaky blue buff steals can be a useful cheese strat against blue dependent junglers. Of course, correct warding will prevent it, just like correct scouting stops cheese in sc2. Nevertheless it may sometimes be a gamble worth taking and it would not completely surprise me if someone tries it in a tournament setting (and in soloq any cheese can work - I've seen my share of lvl 1 Nunu buffsteals).
I'd say as of right now 90% of players ward either as they arrive at river (~0:40) or wait till 1:00. These wards won't spot you coming right after doing red. Player warding behaviour certainly changes over time but right now this is a nice thing to abuse.
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Since this is the "jungle thread" I hope its the right place for this question.
I a new player and also new to Jungle-ing. I have two characters that I have used in the jungle enough times to be 'somewhat' comfortable with, Warwick and Fiddle Sticks.If I am trying to be a good team player and help my team win, when should I pick one vs the other? What factors about my team would make one or the other stronger?
If I get to the point when I'm playing draft instead of blind, what factors about the opposing team would make one or the other stronger?
Thanks very much.
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Since someone else bumped the topic I also have a question. It seems to me like lot of people (even high elo like Scip) will always do the same jungle route for given champion every game. This seems extremely dangerous to me as getting counter-jungled seems to completely shut down even junglers who don't have much trouble with clearing - and since most people do the same path, it seems like early invading is a really good idea. Even in our inhouses I only avoided getting killed by a Jarvan because I have a very unusual route (Gromp -> Wolves -> Red so that I'm level 3, with red and max hp after smiting red and drinking 1 pot). So why don't we see lots of invades? Is it just gentleman's agreement? Is it because invaded jungler always has the advantage for some reason? Do you just assume that jungle entrances are always warded and thus don't risk invading?
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On January 16 2015 03:31 AlterKot wrote:
Since someone else bumped the topic I also have a question. It seems to me like lot of people (even high elo like Scip) will always do the same jungle route for given champion every game. This seems extremely dangerous to me as getting counter-jungled seems to completely shut down even junglers who don't have much trouble with clearing - and since most people do the same path, it seems like early invading is a really good idea. Even in our inhouses I only avoided getting killed by a Jarvan because I have a very unusual route (Gromp -> Wolves -> Red so that I'm level 3, with red and max hp after smiting red and drinking 1 pot). So why don't we see lots of invades? Is it just gentleman's agreement? Is it because invaded jungler always has the advantage for some reason? Do you just assume that jungle entrances are always warded and thus don't risk invading?
This I actually don't know. Consider the fact that most people will head straight out of base to the river areas and drop their trinket wards around a minute or so. I do think that by the time you finish your first camp and get level 2, most wards will be down already. I actually don't see why people don't just go fuck with others at the second/third camps, but I think a lot of it has to do with unfamiliarity of a lot of players with new jungle routes because as you said people do different things and it's hard to predict. That's why if I'm aiming to invade, I'm a fan of the level 2 because most people will do the secondary camp -> buff camp these days because it's just "meta" to do so.
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On January 16 2015 03:31 AlterKot wrote:
Since someone else bumped the topic I also have a question. It seems to me like lot of people (even high elo like Scip) will always do the same jungle route for given champion every game. This seems extremely dangerous to me as getting counter-jungled seems to completely shut down even junglers who don't have much trouble with clearing - and since most people do the same path, it seems like early invading is a really good idea. Even in our inhouses I only avoided getting killed by a Jarvan because I have a very unusual route (Gromp -> Wolves -> Red so that I'm level 3, with red and max hp after smiting red and drinking 1 pot). So why don't we see lots of invades? Is it just gentleman's agreement? Is it because invaded jungler always has the advantage for some reason? Do you just assume that jungle entrances are always warded and thus don't risk invading?
I don't think it's worth to invade the enemy on their third camp. As far as I can tell, junglers are typically pathing gromp-blue-wolves-red or krugs-red-wolves-blue. For instance, if you're on blue side and you go to invade red side wolf camp, the enemy is so close to their inner turret you're not likely to get a kill, but you are likely to waste a lot of time. Then there's the off chance bot lane/mid lane show up and kill you. If the laners don't come and help what's the reward? Wolf camp?
Another reason might be, like you said, different jungle routes. Some people go gromp-blue-wolves-jungle item. So invading their red buff might be a waste of time and actually put you at a disadvantage.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
What do you mean invade lvl2, as in start golems/red buff and then go straight to the enemy blue? Meh
If I remember correctly you wouldn't have died had you went standard route either Alterkot, but you'd be forced to give up your blue without any wards giving you a warning in advance.
The reason why I go pretty much the same jungle path early game for each champion is because there is usually a massive timeloss or a complete waste in any alteration of the path, just the consequence of how the jungle is arranged right now. It might very well be that some invading jungle paths (perhaps golems->red->wraiths->enemy blue vs a golems starting enemy? just theorycrafting here) are viable and not accounted for by many people. I haven't spent any time on exploring them though. I'd just like to say that if you wish to do so, you should focus on discovering and testing very concrete and precise jungle paths; any other way of "invading" early is not gonna be worth the time loss and danger.
Also, what champion exactly do you propose people should invade with? I guess Lee Sin's early invades should be alright in theory. If Kha'Zix gets a decent pull I should think he is still formidable lvl3 too. Can't think of any other champions; either lacking in killing potential or drop too low on hp to invade.
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Minor notes from the leashing change with regard to range-abusing junglers:
Only really affects wolves and red buff, the latter of which can still be kited / pulled around the backside of the rock cove thing.
If you do single target damage, you can still start with the little wolves and then just start the big one after it hits it 5 leashes and resets. It will probably hard reset at least once unless you're willing to tank damage or have smite up. Basically it's either way slower (effectively gains a few hundred health or so) or you take damage (make it soft reset 4 times and then tank it).
Red buff is similar, but due to it's higher HP total it will reset more than once unless you tank or kite around the back. That's super slow and dumb, so I suggest tanking it for speed whenever possible.
Doing a full clear without taking damage has become basically impossible (or just takes more skill than I have, I guess).
This obviously means some ranged junglers just can't full clear / infinite jungle, or clear and have lots of HP left over to gank / invade anymore, which was their only selling point over many otherwise better junglers.
Rocks -> Red -> Birds -> lv3 Gank still works alright if you're into early ganks.
Frog -> Blue -> Wolves -> lv3 Gank is way harder than the above and I don't recommend.
Twitch works fine but it's defs a nerf to his versatility, but he was always a niche jungler anyways and this just shoehorns him a bit more. I'm not gonna pretend it was ever particularly good or anything.
Kayle basically unaffected, range buff expires after leash cap anyway.
Things that kind of sucked before like Annie I can't make work anymore.
I dunno about melee kiting like Eve.
Also, a mechanics question for Scip: How many tries / how much time do you spend perfecting your PvE with a specific champion, generally? I'm sure a lot of it is general PvE mechanics that you carry over from champ to champ, but when practicing with a new jungler how much practice would you say is worth it?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Some champions are pretty easy and you can do them correctly on like 5th try, some champions take longer, took like 2 hours practicing Skarner and maybe 4-5? on Eve. Practice is worth it until you can do 1st clear perfectly or very close to (if you can do 1st clear perfectly, you can probably do all subsequent clears perfectly too). The difference between having a good early clear and not is absolutely staggering and if you're a jungle main PvE practice until perfect is probably the fastest way to improve your win%.
Oh, before you practice PvE for the love of all that is holy make sure you use the proper runes and masteries. The guidelines for jungle are pretty simple but if you're unsure you can consult me.
The preferred Eve path is probably Frog->Blue->Wolves base or perhaps Golems->Red->Wraiths base now. You have no chance of doing 6 camp clear and honestly 4-5 camp clear that allows you to get a lot of mana pots isn't particularly useful because with purple smite thing you can probably sustain for long enough until your 2nd back and the utility of early pink wards is somewhat questionable on Eve. I'm uncertain about whether you want to go Skirmisher or Stalkers before you upgrade to Warrior's but I think it depends and I think Skirmisher might very well be viable in certain cases (1 very important damage threat that will likely focus you).
Random thoughts: Pretty much every jungler wants to get Trailblazer on first back and then change it just before they upgrate it into their jungle item of choice. With Rammus I've been experimenting with Sunfire first build, in which case you switch to Stalker's right after you get Sunfire. This change is a buff to all Trailblazer champions. I still don't see Poacher's ever beign worth it.
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The Golems/Red, back for Machete upgrade, blue, check for gank opportunity, clear rest of the jungle route is so strong.
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On January 18 2015 19:38 Scip wrote:
The preferred Eve path is probably Frog->Blue->Wolves base or perhaps Golems->Red->Wraiths base now. You have no chance of doing 6 camp clear and honestly 4-5 camp clear that allows you to get a lot of mana pots isn't particularly useful because with purple smite thing you can probably sustain for long enough until your 2nd back and the utility of early pink wards is somewhat questionable on Eve. I'm uncertain about whether you want to go Skirmisher or Stalkers before you upgrade to Warrior's but I think it depends and I think Skirmisher might very well be viable in certain cases (1 very important damage threat that will likely focus you).
Random thoughts: Pretty much every jungler wants to get Trailblazer on first back and then change it just before they upgrate it into their jungle item of choice. With Rammus I've been experimenting with Sunfire first build, in which case you switch to Stalker's right after you get Sunfire. This change is a buff to all Trailblazer champions. I still don't see Poacher's ever beign worth it.
For eve, I quite like doubles --> wraiths --> red. It's slower than doing doubles red wraiths, but it does leave you enough HP to go for a gank or to full clear (though it's slow as fuck) depending on the situation.
3 camps --> back works well too, but I think it's a little too predictable in terms of your gank timings. (And I think Eve is pretty much only good when you can get an early lead, so it's vital to make one of your first ganks work).
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EPT
