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Thank you Loci.
I struggled with Teleport panth for a solid 15-20 games, but then after figuring it out, I feel like it is vastly superior to ignite. You have so much map pressure its actually kind of disgusting. You can just win all your lanes for you, and then enemy team rages at opposing mid even though realistically, they doing all they can.
Case in point: I just played a game against a Cass mid. Great panth counter, just started like 90 armor, shoved the lane with skills and didn't really let me deal any damage to her. Told J4 to cover my lane, and just forced fights bottom with TP and Ult... by like ten minute mark I have 8 kills, we have secured a dragoin, and have taken bottom tower, and some how our Vayne Evelynn lane is 20 CS and many kills ahead of the enemy Sona-Cait lane.
Feels so good to have like BT+GA before anyone else in agme complete their first item.
<3 Spartans.
I also like your tip about not buying boots because of your base movespeed. I've always bought rather fast boots to force fights, but you really dont need them, and you rather strong at forcing fights anyways with your basemovsepeed alone. Being able to grab an extra Dorans instead of boots is huge. Really feel that boost. That one took a long time to ingrain as well.
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After seeing jungle Pantheons in LCS and on some streams, I've been thinking about possible ways to build him. I also bought the champ a few days ago, and I've always liked him.
So you want a bit of tankiness but most of all some hard damage seems to be the recipe for succes.
What's bothering my mind is if the added farm from rushing Elder Lizard outweighs the later-coming tankiness of Spirit Golem, assuming it's either:
[start]->Elder->Cleaver (?)
[start]->Spirit stone->Bruta->Golem
What I'm thinking is, with the second option you could end up with an all-round "finished" midgame build of golem, cleaver, (LW if you afford), GA. HP, resists, damage, possibly even CDR cap if you get CDR boots and mastery.
The first option is lacking on HP if you do it similarily, so you'll want another item? to make up for it.
Also, anyone have experience with Doran's blade starts at the moment? Panth used to be able to do it, but then it was often combined with a level 2 gank...
I tried CDR vs AS mastery quickly, and I didn't get noticable differences in the first clear. I can easily imagine AS pulling ahead when you don't have blue though... This was in a blank game though, so leash might change stuff up?
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for jungle... i dont know... in my opion there are stronger junglers... but for jungling pan:
how about thinking of your spirit stone as a "dorans-jungle".
i think after the introduction of the new passive on spirit stone (and the other jungle items), there is no need to upgrade it.
(before changes i was real fan of the wraith upgrade  )
i dont think, that any of the upgrade options are worth 1300g. and not even the gold passive makes them worth buying :/
and, by the time u have all other item slots full, u definitly wanna sell that jungle item first anyway.
well, not many games last that long... but just in case - that could be an argument
that said. the spirit stone passive is STRONG, farming jungle and regain health+mana... so gud! always rush^^
pantheon is _kind of_ a ranged ad caster. his Q is ranged, his E is ranged, both low cd. he can stay back and do a lot of dps (therefore, ranged ad caster), his W is a double edged sword. putting himself in danger for a stun. so...
ad and cdr are the most powerfull stats for him.
i think after the spirit stone i would go for burtalizer, cdr/mob boots, IE, BC
after maybe a guardian angel? i think, afterwards depends on enemy team: last whisper is almost always a good buy
the IE is super expensive, but his 100% crit passive... synergize real well. if u can -> get IE - if not... well yeah^^ buy what u need vs dat team/for your team)
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That's just wrong. IE is bad on Pantheon, because the 100% crit chance only occur when enemies will die in one hit anyway. Unless you're up against a full team of tanks, and then you'd not pick panth in the first place.
Also, the jungle items are good for junglers, since you really need some cost efficiency.
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On February 02 2014 10:52 Duvon wrote:
That's just wrong. IE is bad on Pantheon, because the 100% crit chance only occur when enemies will die in one hit anyway. Unless you're up against a full team of tanks, and then you'd not pick panth in the first place.
Also, the jungle items are good for junglers, since you really need some cost efficiency.
I've actually been wondering for a while what the point of Certain Death is, since it usually triggers when, like you said, they'd die anyways.
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Some rough calculations later, at precisely 15% hp:
You'll need about 200 AD to AA 1-shot a 2k hp 100 armor target. Easy.
You'll need 400+ AD to AA 1shot a 3k hp 200 armor target. Not so easy. Spearshot is closer, but not quite there either (~380 damage).
*Assuming LW and Cleaver.
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It's more that Certain Death is useless for a larger part of your targets' health, so all the gold for IE's passive is wasted in these cases, and the gold for the crit% is wasted too for all the damage you deal through Q/E. IE's already super expensive, but on top of that it's effectiveness/gold is weaker than straight AD stuff like BT or Hydra.
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Feel like lizard Elder is pretty good, hitting them with spear when low + the burn passive is pretty leet
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On February 03 2014 05:31 arb wrote:
Feel like lizard Elder is pretty good, hitting them with spear when low + the burn passive is pretty leet
Yeah, Lizard elder is good.
I dunno, ilove me some spartan, but I think Jungle Spartan is really... Cheesy.
Either the other team sucks and doesn't ward and you kill them all, or you are useless. You just like can't farm on jungle Panth.
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So I've been thinking about taking the Pantheon man up top lane.
Can anyone tell me a typical 6-item build on him? Or better yet, what is the ratio of offensive items to defensive items on this guy? Do people usually go Ravenous Hydra, Last Whisper, Brutalizer, Randuin's Omen and then Banshee's Veil on him? I realize that his items choices are going to vary from game to game but I'm just wondering what is decent on him.
And then my next question is what are his early core items? I realize that he likes his early Brutalizer, but does anyone else have good suggestions for him?
and my last question, which top laners have a better early game than Pantheon? I know Pantheon's early game is supposed to be godly but I was wondering if there was anyone in particular I have too look out for.
Thanks!
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On June 18 2014 00:30 Frudgey wrote:
So I've been thinking about taking the Pantheon man up top lane.
Can anyone tell me a typical 6-item build on him? Or better yet, what is the ratio of offensive items to defensive items on this guy? Do people usually go Ravenous Hydra, Last Whisper, Brutalizer, Randuin's Omen and then Banshee's Veil on him? I realize that his items choices are going to vary from game to game but I'm just wondering what is decent on him.
And then my next question is what are his early core items? I realize that he likes his early Brutalizer, but does anyone else have good suggestions for him?
and my last question, which top laners have a better early game than Pantheon? I know Pantheon's early game is supposed to be godly but I was wondering if there was anyone in particular I have too look out for.
Thanks!
Not really, he pretty much bodies every top laner. Granted I havn't played him top in like two seasons and a lot of champions got changed.
I find the swain matchup really challenging, but no one plays swain anymore. Xin is a bitch, but again no one plays. Malphite is like a hard lose lane. Jax will outplay you and beat you if he is good. Irelia should win the matchup too, but you have a chance to snowball really hard if your opponent doesn't know the matchup. Yorick will dominate you, as will Volibear, and Darius. I personally think a GP played right beats your too, but if they don't they get rolled.
Other than that Pantheon wins pretty much every lane pretty hard. Not sure about some of the newer champions though.
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A Nasus in one of my games gave up first blood to panth at 2mins... Was not a fun game. I know it's not a common pick but Fiora would probably have a scarier level 1/2 right?
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On June 18 2014 09:33 miicah wrote:
A Nasus in one of my games gave up first blood to panth at 2mins... Was not a fun game. I know it's not a common pick but Fiora would probably have a scarier level 1/2 right?
No, Pantheon shits on Fiora.
Like hard.
Nasus is one of those that I'm not sure about.
He was buffed a lot since I played Pantheon top frequently, I feel like he is likely too hard to push out of lane if he itemizes / runes correctly and should win, but I honeslty havn't played it. For the longest time though, yeah Pantheon would absolutely roll over Nasus.
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Yeah I just played a couple of games of Pantheon top, and I played a couple game of Dominion with him. He can body people really hard. Like I went against a Kayle top lane and I just crushed her. I also went against a Riven and it wasn't too hard to assert lane dominance against her either.
I think Darius versus Pantheon is in favor of Darius, but if he's dumb and doesn't build armor straight away you can just wear him out with spears. (Believe me that's a mistake I've made before)
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On June 18 2014 12:52 Frudgey wrote:
Yeah I just played a couple of games of Pantheon top, and I played a couple game of Dominion with him. He can body people really hard. Like I went against a Kayle top lane and I just crushed her. I also went against a Riven and it wasn't too hard to assert lane dominance against her either.
I think Darius versus Pantheon is in favor of Darius, but if he's dumb and doesn't build armor straight away you can just wear him out with spears. (Believe me that's a mistake I've made before)
No, Darius just wins unless the Darius is really really bad.
Panth has like no chance in that matchup. You just straight up can't fight him after he levels E. Any good Darius will pull you if you get in spear range then all in you. And you will die.
Best case scenario you get shoved into your tower and Darius out CS+creeps you and you have zero game relavence unless Darius himself roams. Worst case scenario you fight him and die.
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On June 18 2014 13:15 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 12:52 Frudgey wrote:
Yeah I just played a couple of games of Pantheon top, and I played a couple game of Dominion with him. He can body people really hard. Like I went against a Kayle top lane and I just crushed her. I also went against a Riven and it wasn't too hard to assert lane dominance against her either.
I think Darius versus Pantheon is in favor of Darius, but if he's dumb and doesn't build armor straight away you can just wear him out with spears. (Believe me that's a mistake I've made before) No, Darius just wins unless the Darius is really really bad. Panth has like no chance in that matchup. You just straight up can't fight him after he levels E. Any good Darius will pull you if you get in spear range then all in you. And you will die. Best case scenario you get shoved into your tower and Darius out CS+creeps you and you have zero game relavence unless Darius himself roams. Worst case scenario you fight him and die.
Panth spears have 600 range and no cast time I believe. Apprehend has 540 range and a slight cast time. Not to mention Pantheon's base movement speed is 15 higher than Darius, so it's a little easier to kite him. Not to mention, Apprehend is on a ~22 second cool down at level one, so even if he does grab you, you can stun him him and disengage. Spears are on a much lower cooldown than apprehend.
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I don't think it's as much of a free win as you think it is for Darius.
Of course that being said, I might just be an awful Darius player haha!
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Darius has a 5% MS buff (per champion affected) on his passive. I've seen some run MS quints just to be able to catch someone more easily, apply the passive and grind them down.
Pantheon will have to get close to the creep wave to farm, Darius' blade-Q deals more damage than Panth's Q and he's (at least) as fast as you once you're tagged, it also helps him push to hit 2 first and/or have the creep wave advantage.
If Darius tags Pantheon with his passive using a blade-Q then stacks it, there's no way Pantheon wins the fight at early levels. Darius' passive is just too strong.
After this if he builds some armour/HP (to abuse his very high armour and consistent damage) and pots he can grind Pantheon's mana pool down, at which point there's not much Panth can do. He also automatically loses the lane at level 6 obv.
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On June 18 2014 17:25 Alaric wrote:
Darius has a 5% MS buff (per champion affected) on his passive. I've seen some run MS quints just to be able to catch someone more easily, apply the passive and grind them down.
Pantheon will have to get close to the creep wave to farm, Darius' blade-Q deals more damage than Panth's Q and he's (at least) as fast as you once you're tagged, it also helps him push to hit 2 first and/or have the creep wave advantage.
If Darius tags Pantheon with his passive using a blade-Q then stacks it, there's no way Pantheon wins the fight at early levels. Darius' passive is just too strong.
After this if he builds some armour/HP (to abuse his very high armour and consistent damage) and pots he can grind Pantheon's mana pool down, at which point there's not much Panth can do. He also automatically loses the lane at level 6 obv.
Oh yes I agree with what you're saying. All I wanted to say is that if Darius doesn't build straight up armour and health then Pantheon can just whittle him down with spears.
I'm really going to have to play the lane match up again though. You guys are raising a lot of good points in which frankly I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't consider them. To be honest I haven't played the lane match-up very many times so I can't speak from much experience, so I can't really say that I know what I'm talking about.
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On June 18 2014 13:15 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 12:52 Frudgey wrote:
Yeah I just played a couple of games of Pantheon top, and I played a couple game of Dominion with him. He can body people really hard. Like I went against a Kayle top lane and I just crushed her. I also went against a Riven and it wasn't too hard to assert lane dominance against her either.
I think Darius versus Pantheon is in favor of Darius, but if he's dumb and doesn't build armor straight away you can just wear him out with spears. (Believe me that's a mistake I've made before) No, Darius just wins unless the Darius is really really bad. Panth has like no chance in that matchup. You just straight up can't fight him after he levels E. Any good Darius will pull you if you get in spear range then all in you. And you will die. Best case scenario you get shoved into your tower and Darius out CS+creeps you and you have zero game relavence unless Darius himself roams. Worst case scenario you fight him and die.
I'm no pro, but in my experience, it's a lot closer than you make it out. Top pantheon was my most played season 2-3 and I don't ever recall being concerned about a darius pick. Granted, not recently so my memory might be biased, but pre-6 I don't think Darius is going to do that well in a straight up fight.
First off, at lvl 1-3, spear is has over 100 range longer than decimate and less than half the cd. Not to mention Pantheon has higher base movement speed. Also, a huge portion of darius' damage comes from auto attacks which is Pantheon's specialty. Assuming darius goes Q-E-Q-W by level 4, honestly, I wouldn't even bother trying to avoid being apprehended. In a straight fight at lvl 4:
Spear does more damage than decimate on half the cd
Pantheon will guaranteed block 2 autos, possibly 3, especially if you can prep your passive/w stacks.
Stun vs an extra auto for Ws
HSS does huge damage while apprehend does literally nothing.
Darius has bleed passive. Pantheon has certain death passive.
(I mean, yea the bleed hurts but the fight starts out with Darius being stunned, getting his next 2 autos blocked, standing in HSS, and already having eaten a spear. Bleed is over 5 seconds and considering he has to stack them, I really don't think it will significantly turn the tide of an all in.)
So assuming equal stats, over a 5-7 second fight, it seems to me on paper, Pantheon has a clear upper hand.
Also, it possible that the Darii I face are just garbage, but outside of Apprehend, there is literally nothing Darius can do other than push the lane while whiffing Qs. Which, given Darius has no sustain, he's always going to be overextended and half hp as a 0 mobility, 0 cc melee champion. And even if you do get apprehended, it's a 24 second cd vs 13 seconds for pantheon's disengage.
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EPT
