On April 30 2013 01:58 TomatoShark wrote: nice guide is it bad that I do armor pen red armor yellow scaling mr blue 2 ms quint 1 ad and go 21/9? :<
The reason I don't take armor pen runes on Renekton is because I try and build my advantages in the early game. Attack Damage > Armor pen early game because of Renekton's high ratios (225% on empowered w). Armor yellows are pretty standard in top lane. Scaling mr blues are only good against top lanes with little magic damage, flat mr blues are more effective against hybrid or ap tops. I feel like the ms quints are a waste against 90% of the common top lane picks, 3 AD quints is the way to go imo. Your rune page is geared toward team fights and offers Renekton very little in lane. Runes are most effective early game so I feel it is more important to get early game stats from runes that increase early game power. Strong early game runes on Renekton are Attack Damage, Flat Armor, Flat Magic Resist, and Cool Down Reduction. I will have a Rune page video guide up either today or tmrw where I will go into more detail and show my 4 rune pages I use and when to use each.
As far as going 21/9 it offers slightly more damage than 9/21 in exchange for a huge loss in trading power. You can use 21/9 if you know you will stomp the lane. 21/9 gives you 3 AD, 5 ARP, 2%Damage and 5% increased damage to targets below 50% over the 9/21. I would trade all of that just for the unyielding and block masteries in the defensive tree. The defensive tree is far more effective than the offensive tree on top laners early game and scales better into mid and late game.
Actually, full AD is only better than Apen marks AD quints until lvl 3 and afterwards becomes better, especially if you go for a Brutalizer or Doran Blades.
Let's compare empowered Q and W with no AD starting item and 9/21/0 and full AD runes vs AD quints and Apen marks at lvl 3 against a 40 armor target(lvl 1 all skills):
Q: Full AD runes: 80 dmg
APen Marks, AD Quints: 81 dmg
W: Full AD runes: 141 dmg
APen Marks, AD Quints: 140 dmg
Also, the 2.25 AD ratio is a common misconception. It's pretty much an autoattack, so it only has a 1.25 AD bonus ratio. In addition, it is off all AD instead of bonus AD, which means that it includes your base AD as well and hence leads into the rune portion being significantly smaller than expected.
What about something like 17/13 which lets you grab Unyielding/Block but no further defense masteries? You get most (but not all) of the direct durability like that, giving up mostly honor guard, bonus% HP (doesnt really help early) armor/MR based on # of opponents (ok but not amazing in lane against a non-mixed opponent, better in teamfights) or tenacity (already a choice)
On April 30 2013 04:02 Shikyo wrote: Actually, full AD is only better than Apen marks AD quints until lvl 3 and afterwards becomes better, especially if you go for a Brutalizer or Doran Blades.
Let's compare empowered Q and W with no AD starting item and 9/21/0 and full AD runes vs AD quints and Apen marks at lvl 3 against a 40 armor target(lvl 1 all skills):
Q: Full AD runes: 80 dmg
APen Marks, AD Quints: 81 dmg
W: Full AD runes: 141 dmg
APen Marks, AD Quints: 140 dmg
Just did the math myself and you are right about empowered, however non empowered resulted the with AD runes coming out slightly ahead. Attack damage imo is still better because Renekton All-ins occur at level 2 (sometimes level 3) where AD runes come out slightly ahead. AD runes also help last hitting. I think it is very close and I ran AD quits and Apen marks for a long time before switching, I guess it all depends on if you can gain an advantage between levels 1-3 or not.
Also, the 2.25 AD ratio is a common misconception. It's pretty much an autoattack, so it only has a 1.25 AD bonus ratio. In addition, it is off all AD instead of bonus AD, which means that it includes your base AD as well and hence leads into the rune portion being significantly smaller than expected.
You raised a great point about the W ratio being base AD leading to AD runes being less effective but the 2.25 ratio is not a misconception. The reasoning is that W resets your auto attack animation so saying one of the auto attacks doesn't count is wrong and means the ability is not being used to its fullest. W should be used immediately after an auto attack.
On April 30 2013 04:02 Shikyo wrote: Actually, full AD is only better than Apen marks AD quints until lvl 3 and afterwards becomes better, especially if you go for a Brutalizer or Doran Blades.
Let's compare empowered Q and W with no AD starting item and 9/21/0 and full AD runes vs AD quints and Apen marks at lvl 3 against a 40 armor target(lvl 1 all skills):
Q: Full AD runes: 80 dmg
APen Marks, AD Quints: 81 dmg
W: Full AD runes: 141 dmg
APen Marks, AD Quints: 140 dmg
Just did the math myself and you are right about empowered, however non empowered resulted the with AD runes coming out slightly ahead. Attack damage imo is still better because Renekton All-ins occur at level 2 (sometimes level 3) where AD runes come out slightly ahead. AD runes also help last hitting. I think it is very close and I ran AD quits and Apen marks for a long time before switching, I guess it all depends on if you can gain an advantage between levels 1-3 or not.
Also, the 2.25 AD ratio is a common misconception. It's pretty much an autoattack, so it only has a 1.25 AD bonus ratio. In addition, it is off all AD instead of bonus AD, which means that it includes your base AD as well and hence leads into the rune portion being significantly smaller than expected.
You raised a great point about the W ratio being base AD leading to AD runes being less effective but the 2.25 ratio is not a misconception. The reasoning is that W resets your auto attack animation so saying one of the auto attacks doesn't count is wrong and means the ability is not being used to its fullest. W should be used immediately after an auto attack.
That's not exactly what I meant. If it was just off bonus dmg for example the difference would be between 38 and 20, almost double, whereas here it's between 178 and 160. Also I guess we just think differently about this, it's all sementics anyway and doesn't really matter. Just pointing out that the AD ratio isn't really as solid a reason for having AD over Apen in this case because it includes the base AD as well.
I didn't know he could allin effectively at lvl 2 though, and it's true that for that level full AD is better. Shows what I know.
It's weird if AD comes out ahead of Apen when it's not empowered because it's supposed to just be 2/3 the damage and so the apen amplification should be the same. For example if you do 3 autoattacks, all 3 hits should be dealing the same damage. Just like with Renekton W, when he has no Fury he should be doing 2 attacks of 5 + 75% AD and with Fury 3, so the armor to Apen difference really should not be there. Too lazy to calculate though as it's so late.
Oh right, and awaiting your next video, hopefully it's soon.
On April 30 2013 04:04 sylverfyre wrote: What about something like 17/13 which lets you grab Unyielding/Block but no further defense masteries? You get most (but not all) of the direct durability like that, giving up mostly honor guard, bonus% HP (doesnt really help early) armor/MR based on # of opponents (ok but not amazing in lane against a non-mixed opponent, better in teamfights) or tenacity (already a choice)
I had the exact same thoughts about a month ago and began running 17/13 but 4 points get wasted in the offense tree imo. The 3 points in Havoc and 1 point in Butcher give almost nothing to Renekton all we are really getting is 3 AD and 2 Apen. I feel like the extra utility and defense stats from 9/21 make these build about even in lane but unlike the 17/13 build 9/21 scales into mid and late game making it the clear choice in my mind.
@shikyo I enjoyed the discussion and you raised some great points that made me think hard about my reasoning and realize where AD runes true strengths lie. Renekton's level 2 all in is very scary because if done correctly you will have 75 rage when you get to lane and by the time you kill the 3 melee minions for lv 2 you will have 100 rage making for a huge amount of burst when combined with a red pot and ignite. Depending on your opponent you can either take W and E or W and Q. W+E is great against ranged champs and Q + W is great against melee champs. This all in either gets a kill or denies your opponent quite a few minions.
I got dumpstered on by garen. After my dash stun he Qs me and spin to win... Ended up trading harder than me i had to use empowered Qs to heal up... didnt really die to him but i felt like i did nothing and we ended up losing..
Souza, this is good stuff. Much better than you spamming your stream link in the LoL subforum. You're doing something rather niche, keep making vids of Renek v X and update them in your OP. And it's fine if you mistakes in vids, it's actually normal if you do. Just point them out and rectify/explain what you messed up on.
On May 06 2013 07:37 Flopplop wrote: I got dumpstered on by garen. After my dash stun he Qs me and spin to win... Ended up trading harder than me i had to use empowered Qs to heal up... didnt really die to him but i felt like i did nothing and we ended up losing..
Any tips?
You can trade even with his low level spins with just auto attacks, worst thing you can do is just turn and run. This lane often feels like you are running into a brick wall but if you keep Garen's passive off you will out sustain him forcing him from lane or netting you a kill. So keep trading and make sure to never get silenced without your w activated and look for a kill at level 6.
On May 12 2013 20:38 zer0das wrote: That vs Jayce video was very informative. Glad you're working on assembling clips for a vs Elise video too.
Not many people play elise top atm so I only gotten 3 elise replays in the past 2 months but it might be enough to cover everything I want to cover. Worst case scenario I get a buddy to 1v1 me as elise until I can get enough clips
What about the matchup against Quinn, how do you play that?
I have started to play renekton against pretty much anything to get at least one stable top champion, and this is the matchup that gives me the most problems so far. Of course that might all be just because i play it completely wrong, so it would be nice to know how i am supposed to play it.
I'd imagine it should feel very similar to the vs. Jayce matchup. Shove quick, get 2 first, trade with abilities, trade then dodge into bush, don't eat too many skillshots. Like many vs. ranged characters, you want W/E early. Don't use W if you're blind (though I believe? that the stun goes off anyway, but you lose a ton of damage.)
Early Ninja Tabis go a long way vs someone like Quinn - at some point you essentially start ignoring her damage entirely, shoving with Q and trading when you decide.
On May 13 2013 21:55 sylverfyre wrote: I'd imagine it should feel very similar to the vs. Jayce matchup. Shove quick, get 2 first, trade with abilities, trade then dodge into bush, don't eat too many skillshots. Like many vs. ranged characters, you want W/E early. Don't use W if you're blind (though I believe? that the stun goes off anyway, but you lose a ton of damage.)
Early Ninja Tabis go a long way vs someone like Quinn - at some point you essentially start ignoring her damage entirely, shoving with Q and trading when you decide.
This^^^ against almost every champ that can poke Renekton I use this general strat. Push so they are forced to last hit minions over hitting me. Try to take level advantages and get trades off. Ninja tabi into sunfire and run ghost ignite so you can get free kills with ghost and ult.
EPT
