|
On April 07 2016 04:37 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 03:56 Goumindong wrote:On April 07 2016 02:14 nafta wrote:
Kda is useless ignore it. Very often as support you walk into blitz hook or w/e to start a fight and you die but you get the good engage and win the teamfight.
Also as support you need to learn to make people focus you even if they don't have to which makes you die more but also makes it easier for your carries to do their job. Yea, but you rack up assists doing that, generally. And he isn't. Just because you don't get 5 assists doesn't mean you didnt win the fight wtf. I die all the time for an engage that catches 1 person and I die without getting other assists but we kill all 5 from it.
Yea, over the course of 1 game that is absolutely true. You can die for 1 assist and get an ace out of it and win the game from your one assist. But not all of your 0/1/1 rackups are going down like that. Some are you getting caught and getting 1 kill while you and your allies die. Some are small skirmishes where you trade 1 for 1. Sometimes you get the objective and sometimes you don't.
And then you have your 0/1/2 rackups and how they go down and your 0/0/5 rackups and how they go down. And you add up all your rackups and you get your KDA. And as we add assists and reduce kills we will find that the situations tend to get better for your team, in aggregate.
So over the course of 100 games its not true. Even if you tend to be better than other people for those 0/1/1 rackups being positive they're probably less positive than those 0/0/5 rackups.
We can use KDA to glean some information. Bard has an AoE on his auto attack at a reasonable number of meeps. His speedup and voyage(iirc) grant assists. He should be swimming in them. Leona has an AoE Ult, and another AoE splash. She should be swimming in assists. If games are going on long enough that dying 6 times isn't a problem then you should generally have lots of assists.
Similarly 6 deaths is a high average. My average is high at 4.5.
|
KDA doesn't necessarily mean that much, and also is partially dependent on champion. If you're playing something like Janna, Soraka or Karma, 3 is a low KDA.
|
Why is maokai not a playable support, or not played as support? It seems like with 4 people in lane his passive would keep him at always good health. He has slows and roots to help his adc get kills. He has good vision tools to help keep lane safe from ganks. And late game he is a useful tank.
|
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
He's totally playable as support. He's just not as good as more popular tank supports. And that means there's basically no reason to pick him, over say, Alistar. Compared to Alistar, Maokai's distinguishing advantage is that he can use his saplings as wards and his Q is a lot shorter cooldown, but he's a lot less tanky post-6, has little AoE engage, and his engage range is much shorter.
|
He needs farm to be relevant and only has one direction. He can't actually cast himself in order to stack his passive besides saplings because that relies on trading or pushing the wave or wasting mana so he doesn't have as much sustain as it seems like he should (and ADs aren't exactly spamming so it kind of relies on the other support being ineffective with their abilities)
Plus other melee supports can abuse relic just have much but have better peel and self sustain to deal with ranged supports.
|
On April 08 2016 05:29 General_Winter wrote:
Why is maokai not a playable support, or not played as support? It seems like with 4 people in lane his passive would keep him at always good health. He has slows and roots to help his adc get kills. He has good vision tools to help keep lane safe from ganks. And late game he is a useful tank.
My usual answer for this kind of question would be this:
Play 1-3 games as maokai support, in ranked on your main. Try to evaluate how useful you were to your team unbiased.
Now play 1-3 games as braum or alistar or whatever popular and similar support. Do the same thing.
You usually realize very quickly that there's a good reason that people play those supports and it's because they excel at laning skirmishing and teamfighting all without relying on gold and being able to help snowball the game with your adc.
Anytime I thought X support might be good, you play a game of two of janna and you realize how garbage that support really is.
It's not that X support is bad, it's just that actual supports provide an insane amount to their team without needing to be ahead to do it. Your support still contributes to the team but you can't see how much less until you see the comparison.
This method is good because it's somewhat scientific. Many of the logical reasons people will give you will be biased because they see common supports do well all the time so they have a memory of how effective they can be, it's easy to reject something out of hand. You get to experience the strengths of weaknesses of both common and your niche support in a short period of time allowing you to gain a reasonable evaluation.
If you ask why almost any champ who is unpopular in a role isn't played in a role, people will come up with a reason why, even if it ends up becoming meta and ban status in the next 2 weeks.
|
On April 07 2016 07:25 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 04:37 nafta wrote:On April 07 2016 03:56 Goumindong wrote:On April 07 2016 02:14 nafta wrote:
Kda is useless ignore it. Very often as support you walk into blitz hook or w/e to start a fight and you die but you get the good engage and win the teamfight.
Also as support you need to learn to make people focus you even if they don't have to which makes you die more but also makes it easier for your carries to do their job. Yea, but you rack up assists doing that, generally. And he isn't. Just because you don't get 5 assists doesn't mean you didnt win the fight wtf. I die all the time for an engage that catches 1 person and I die without getting other assists but we kill all 5 from it. Yea, over the course of 1 game that is absolutely true. You can die for 1 assist and get an ace out of it and win the game from your one assist. But not all of your 0/1/1 rackups are going down like that. Some are you getting caught and getting 1 kill while you and your allies die. Some are small skirmishes where you trade 1 for 1. Sometimes you get the objective and sometimes you don't. And then you have your 0/1/2 rackups and how they go down and your 0/0/5 rackups and how they go down. And you add up all your rackups and you get your KDA. And as we add assists and reduce kills we will find that the situations tend to get better for your team, in aggregate. So over the course of 100 games its not true. Even if you tend to be better than other people for those 0/1/1 rackups being positive they're probably less positive than those 0/0/5 rackups. We can use KDA to glean some information. Bard has an AoE on his auto attack at a reasonable number of meeps. His speedup and voyage(iirc) grant assists. He should be swimming in them. Leona has an AoE Ult, and another AoE splash. She should be swimming in assists. If games are going on long enough that dying 6 times isn't a problem then you should generally have lots of assists. Similarly 6 deaths is a high average. My average is high at 4.5.
The solution to this discussion is really simple. You played for 40 minutes live time and saw most of what happened in the game, you have so much more information on what happened in the game that if you need to use your KDA to justify how well you played, you are either
a: bullshitting yourself
b: not really paying attention to what's going on and just autopiloting.
b usually leads to a. If you wander around getting in fights sometimes, getting caught sometimes, getting picks sometimes yeah you'll probably get an okay KDA because supports are easy to not get focused on and easy to pick up assists with, it doesn't mean necessarily that you made a huge impact on the game.
There's plenty of things you can ask yourself as a support to see if you are carrying the game
1: Did you win lane?
If no, did you minimise the damage by not dying yourself and picking up the creeps?
If yes, did you maximise the advantage by doing things like pushing to roam, freezing to deny, pushing to set up a 3-4 man dive?
2: Did you avoid ganks?
Did you ward at appropriate times and places where you could have been ganked? Did you avoid the actual attempts at ganking you? Did you help set up the lane for your own jungler to gank when he was around?
3: Did you roam?
Did you make successful roams with your adc to push towers? Did you make successful roams to mid or top lane to gank? Did you make roams that cost your adc cs or his life or his tower due to bad timing?
4: Did you set up vision at IMPORTANT times in the game?
Did your team have vision of baron at necessary times? Did you have vision of dragon ready so you don't get surprised at a dragon fight? Did you ward the sides when pushing mid to avoid top/bot flanking or tping behind? Did you ward to help a split pusher avoid being ganked?
5: Did you make calls?
Did you make calls for your adc to roam or back off to avoid ganks? Did you make calls for objectives/towers? Did you make correct calls of going in or backing out of skirmishes?
6: Did you help your team win teamfights?
Did you make key picks or engages? Did you peel members of your team at the right time? Did you draw fire or skillshots when necessary? Did you use your CDs at the right time for your team to coordinate kills?
I mean these are things you can probably go through in 2 minutes while in queue, and usually if you weren't able to achieve most of them while trying because you were too far behind, it means that you probably fucked up in laning phase either letting yourself die to ganks too much or just falling behind in general.
I mean snowballing bot lane is a really easy way to win because you can shut down two members +their jungler if you deflect his ganks to put him behind and top is just an island and mid lane can't do anything because you can ward around him and then roam against him so you just take towers whenever they make some kind of mistake and make sure you avoid bad skirmishes.
|
On April 08 2016 20:59 Slayer91 wrote:
The solution to this discussion is really simple. You played for 40 minutes live time and saw most of what happened in the game, you have so much more information on what happened in the game that if you need to use your KDA to justify how well you played, you are either.
Yea, but that is not what we're talking about. I would 100% agree that an in game assessment is of more value.
This is what we were talking about
So I main support (I get that role almost 100 percent of the time) and my winrate is below 50 while having an average score of 1/6/17. I see my carry friends with good ratios usually come out of their games with wins, while I feel like I lose a lot. Is it something to do with my skill or is the myth that supports can't carry true? Or is my score most likely inflated with me having assist steals and my impact on the team is probably very little?
And my response which was(boiled down)
1) Yes its harder for supports to carry this season
2) A 1/6/17 ratio for a support is not "good". There probably is something in your play which is causing you to lose because given the amount of Assist generation in the supports it looks like you play you should be higher if you're being impactful.
|
the guy is deflecting the blame from his play to his role, maybe that's what the conversation about but what we should be talking about is how he evaluates his games.
getting good kda as support is easy if you play passive and follow the team, doesn't mean it's the best way to play
1/6/17 can be a great score in a short game it can indicate a solo carry
but in a long game it might mean nothing at all
no point talking about this the guy is wondering why he can't carry so i told him
|
ok so i calibrated at silver 3
but why am i still getting diamonds and plats in my games?
shouldnt i be getting silvers and shit so i can beat them and climb?
|
On April 10 2016 20:34 evilfatsh1t wrote:
ok so i calibrated at silver 3
but why am i still getting diamonds and plats in my games?
shouldnt i be getting silvers and shit so i can beat them and climb?
Are you still getting plats and diamonds in your ranked games? If so can tell us what's your account so we can look at it?
Normal games and ranked games have separated MMR so finishing your placement games has no impact on your normal games.
|
turned out they are golds/silvers in season 6. they just have the plat/diamond frames from last season
my last game did have 3 silvers and 2 golds on my team vs 4 golds 1 plat on theirs though. even if i were better than my current placement how the hell are you supposed to climb consistently when the teams are so blatantly imbalanced lol
|
I haven't touched this game since last season. can someone explain to me how the crafting system works.
|
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 04 2016 05:23 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I haven't touched this game since last season. can someone explain to me how the crafting system works.
Get chests: get an S grade on a champ or queue with someone who gets an S grade. You can only get one chest per champion per season, and 4 chests per week.
Get key fragments: win a game (greater chance early in the month and when queued in a party). Three key fragments = a key.
Use keys to open chests
Chests contain "temporary skins", "temporary champs", or "temporary ward skins", which you can either a) disenchant for essence; b) turn them into permanent skins, champs, and ward skins by spending essence; or c) reroll three of them to get a permanent of the same type.
|
On May 04 2016 06:00 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 05:23 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I haven't touched this game since last season. can someone explain to me how the crafting system works. Get chests: get an S grade on a champ or queue with someone who gets an S grade. You can only get one chest per champion per season, and 4 chests per week. Get key fragments: win a game (greater chance early in the month and when queued in a party). Three key fragments = a key. Use keys to open chests Chests contain "temporary skins", "temporary champs", or "temporary ward skins", which you can either a) disenchant for essence; b) turn them into permanent skins, champs, and ward skins by spending essence; or c) reroll three of them to get a permanent of the same type.
thanks. whats s grade mean?
|
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
After your game, the game grades your performance on a scale from D-C-B-A-S. (Not sure if it's actually possible to get below a D+, anyone know?) Chests require an S-, S, or S+ by you or someone in your party.
How your grade is determined is a big mystery, but it seems to depend on a bunch of factors, chief of which is whether you won the game or not, but also probably KDA, damage dealt, wards placed, etc. etc.
|
On May 04 2016 06:04 GrandInquisitor wrote:
After your game, the game grades your performance on a scale from D-C-B-A-S. (Not sure if it's actually possible to get below a D+, anyone know?) Chests require an S-, S, or S+ by you or someone in your party.
thanks a lot. that makes sense
|
Here's a breakdown of grades from my experience:
A- you fed hard and your team carried you OR you lost the game
A/A+ you got carried
S- you played decently
S you carried the game
S+ you carried the game, didn't die once, got top damage dealt, and the gods have decided to favour you this day
i never did any crafting though since I don't care about skins or anything else
|
Your grade also depends on wards killed/placed on all roles. That is why often people go ridiculous stats and everything and still don't get s.
|
that explains an awful lot to me.
actually yeah I remember you told me that before.
starting playing taric (old) being useless but spamming wards/oracles in ways that never effected the game at all and got S/S+ grades real easily
riot overestimates bad warding so much LOL
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
