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Slayer91
Ireland23469 Posts
There's probably just as many cases where lacking a tiny bit of ad lost you a 1v1 as when that 0.5% crit make you win one. like that 1 AD or whatever over 50 shots in a lane phase lol people running 1 crit mark are like people buying lotto tickets its mathematically dumb and like 99.999999% of them are making a bad decision or rather they all are and some of them luck out there is a point where crit is actually good later though so it's not horrible lol | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 11 2015 07:14 Slayer91 wrote: It was always more or less stupid but its so small you won't see the difference. There's probably just as many cases where lacking a tiny bit of ad lost you a 1v1 as when that 0.5% crit make you win one. like that 1 AD or whatever over 50 shots in a lane phase lol people running 1 crit mark are like people buying lotto tickets its mathematically dumb and like 99.999999% of them are making a bad decision or rather they all are and some of them luck out there is a point where crit is actually good later though so it's not horrible lol It's not like buying lotto tickets at all because your payoff curve is not smooth. Even a negative EV play overall (when looking at average damage dealt) might be worth it if the reward for the crit is sufficiently greater than the reward for the marginal increased AD. For example, against a Sona, doing an extra bit of damage every AA is probably not a big deal. But a chance at doing way more damage opens up an opportunity to drive them out of lane and force them to back. The real reason I don't do crit chance marks is because you're just as likely to screw up CS or mis-leash a buff because of it. But it's not simply because you calculate the expected AD. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23469 Posts
Doing an extra bit of ad consistently over a laning phase could end up being the difference between getting the kill or sona surviving when you flash for the kill for example and can turn the lane around looking at the crit as a 1 time thing compared to the ad as a 1 time thing is short-sighted really. The marginal AD builds up over a lane phase its just less noticable. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
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InvaderUK
225 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 11 2015 23:22 Slayer91 wrote: The reward for winning the lotto is a lot higher than the reward for not spending 3$ on a lotto ticket doesn't mean it's smart to buy a lotto ticket. Doing an extra bit of ad consistently over a laning phase could end up being the difference between getting the kill or sona surviving when you flash for the kill for example and can turn the lane around looking at the crit as a 1 time thing compared to the ad as a 1 time thing is short-sighted really. The marginal AD builds up over a lane phase its just less noticable. You are obviously not understanding what I'm saying. Your argument seems to be that you did the math on expected value of damage dealt, and came to the (obvious) conclusion that crit chance runes is overall negative expected value in terms of damage dealt, just like how a lottery ticket is overall negative expected value in terms of money. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad choice, because unlike the lottery, the value you get from damage dealt to the enemy is not a smooth curve. $60 at once is not worth losing $1 100 times. But 60 more damage on a single AA is well worth losing 1 damage over 100 autoattacks, especially if you're up against Sona or Soraka. By the time you've gotten in 100 autoattacks, passive and active health regeneration is more than enough to negate the value of 1 more damage per AA over that time. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23469 Posts
On September 11 2015 23:59 GrandInquisitor wrote: You are obviously not understanding what I'm saying. Your argument seems to be that you did the math on expected value of damage dealt, and came to the (obvious) conclusion that crit chance runes is overall negative expected value in terms of damage dealt, just like how a lottery ticket is overall negative expected value in terms of money. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad choice, because unlike the lottery, the value you get from damage dealt to the enemy is not a smooth curve. $60 at once is not worth losing $1 100 times. But 60 more damage on a single AA is well worth losing 1 damage over 100 autoattacks, especially if you're up against Sona or Soraka. By the time you've gotten in 100 autoattacks, passive and active health regeneration is more than enough to negate the value of 1 more damage per AA over that time. I am understanding exactly what you're saying and I still think it's dumb. I didn't do any math because if it had higher EV people would have been using it regularly. Passive and active health regeneration are happening anyway, it doesn't magical take effect when you doing 1 extra damage. Unless you are doing literally no damage and then you suddenly get a crit and it's supposed to have a big impact. What you're trying to say is that if you get a crit you somehow gain some large advantage and can go all in and if you don't crit you don't go in, but there's no reason that an auto attack being a crit would have any large effect at all. If you're harassing sona or soraka then it might give you some small advantage the one time it happens but you're falling slightly behind compared to a regular build all the rest of the time. If you're going all in I'd argue the chance of getting a crit is such that the number of times that you lose a fight because of a marginal health gap (happens quite a lot in bot lanes I find) is more than the number of times you win a fight due to an unexpected crit that also is enough to turn the tables. There's another argument based on surprise which is that lets assume the players are good enough to expect every source of possible damage and the crit comes in as a surprise and you get an unexpected kill. But then I think good players would have a harder time accepting a slightly disadvantage a lot of the time in the hope that things are close and you get a surprise crit. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On the other hand, the alternative is a flat ad rune, right? How many creeps would you miss due to missing 1 damage, taking into account both AA's and missed ability damage? In terms of pressuring enemy champions, the cumulative damage between the first rune caused damage and the next time the enemy hero is full health, should be high enough to force the use of an ability or item, to gain a positional advantage, to kill someone, etc when the damage would not be enough without the rune. I feel it's not worth it, but I don't think people can actually estimate all the above matters well enough to find an objective answer. I think one should look at these things strategically more than technically. How/who do you actually want to play? I can imagine playing a lane bully like lucian with a crit, as you'll want to make plays early. A trist however, will probably want to be stable in the early game to get to the late game. I can see why you'd favor the more stable ad rune. I'm only level 24 though and really bad. Feel free to stomp my argument into the ground, so I can learn. | ||
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On September 12 2015 01:22 Yorbon wrote: On the other hand, the alternative is a flat ad rune, right? How many creeps would you miss due to missing 1 damage, taking into account both AA's and missed ability damage? Even when it happens, it's hard to say if you really missed the creep by less that 0.95 hp or if one extra ad mark wouldn't have made a difference. However it's not uncommon for me to miss a cs because I get a crit while trying to get a minions low and it gets last hit by a minion. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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nath
United States1788 Posts
I just realized he works so well for me, I have no idea why I didnt pick him up earlier (my best champs are similar to him). I see for starts, flask or long sword. I have sometimes not been able to secure a kill because of ms, i was thinking of starting boots like kat does, but for different reason. Is this ok idea? | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On September 20 2015 09:10 nath wrote: Talon is free this week. I just realized he works so well for me, I have no idea why I didnt pick him up earlier (my best champs are similar to him). I see for starts, flask or long sword. I have sometimes not been able to secure a kill because of ms, i was thinking of starting boots like kat does, but for different reason. Is this ok idea? For a matchup where the ability to dodge skillshots is important I can see that making sense. But I imagine just pushing them out of lane is still great value you gain XP advantage and get the 'free' back. I don't play Talon or most assassins, but I don't think there'd be a great reason for a boots start over flask. The sustain and lane pressure that can give I think would be far more important especially as unlike Zed he's not a resource less champion. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
I've seen multiple guides and most of them either told me to go ravenous hydra or black cleaver. Which one is preferred in what situations? Phage seems like a good snowballing item on renekton, and a kindlegem gives some nice cdr, so I go black cleaver often. Are there circumstances where ravenous is better? Is it worth it to take tp and ignite on renekton instead of flash? And which one (tp or ignite) would be preferred in what match-ups given you do take flash? | ||
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loSleb
Austria1389 Posts
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Misder
United States1557 Posts
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Celial
2602 Posts
Shaclone - Shaco Cowsep - Master Yi TheRainMan - Teemo (or random shit in Gold) SaintVicious has been spamming A LOT of Tahm Kench lately. Froggen has been playing Anivia A LOT. Honestly I just Youtube for champions nowadays. Limit the upload to within 1 month or smth. Many many VoDs from high level streamers for the more popular champions. | ||
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Luepert
United States1934 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Leona is sort of the baseline for any tanky support: is there something meaningful that Sejuani can bring to the table that Leona cannot? Pretty much the only thing I can think of is the E slow and a slightly stronger ult, but that doesn't really make up for the free stats that Leona's W provides (which allows her to be tanky even on a support budget). | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On October 18 2015 03:22 Yorbon wrote: Hi, I have a question about Renekton. I decided to try him, but am unsure about first big items and summoners. I've seen multiple guides and most of them either told me to go ravenous hydra or black cleaver. Which one is preferred in what situations? Phage seems like a good snowballing item on renekton, and a kindlegem gives some nice cdr, so I go black cleaver often. Are there circumstances where ravenous is better? Is it worth it to take tp and ignite on renekton instead of flash? And which one (tp or ignite) would be preferred in what match-ups given you do take flash? Ravenous hydra lets you push faster, which helps you maintain a lot of pressure. Also the vamp helps too. I wouldn't be going BC first that often, not enough AD for my tastes and its pretty rare you're facing someone who is going to stack armor against you. I'm going to go ahead and say no, it's almost never worth it to take ignite over flash. Ignite is more of a "get ahead" laning summoner. Renekton shouldn't really be having laning issues. Closing the gap on the backline is much harder so flash should almost always be taken. | ||
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WhiteAngelXinZhao
1 Post
On February 11 2013 03:26 Alaric wrote: If you're good at pushing/killing towers yourself, if you don't have a good enough ward coverage that it's safe to follow (as in if you're against a Malz or an Ahri, facechecking while following him can a one-way trip to the fountain for example), if you're a vulnerable champ in general (Malz, Karthus with his ult down so he can't just stay in lane and press R, Anivia...). totally agreed! | ||
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