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Well in that situation, there were a few things other than Riven's Kit working against you. Ezreal is really fucking good against J4 because he just laughs at the ult. Ryze is super good against Riven because of his snare, MS boost, and high sustained damage (I assume he also was building pretty tanky on top of it with Glacial and RoA). Lulu is also stupidly good against divers, not even just Riven in particular.
Just a bad situation for Riven. Two things you have to look out for before you pick her which were prevalent in that game:
-Long duration hard CCs. In this case, the Ryze W and Lulu polymorph.
-Slippery ADs. After your initial combo, if they're not dead, you need to stick on them. I assume even if you reached Ez, you'd get E'd away from, Lulu ulted up, and then slowed, right? That's a very bad situation for someone like Riven, you need someone with good hard CC to deal with Ez most of the time.
Looking at your match history, if that's the most recent game with Riven, that was just a really bad team to be Riven against. Your best bet probably would have been to stick around your MF and kill the Kha when he came to dive, then do clean up with your chasing and ult active.
Riven is one of those champs you just can't pick in some situations.
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On February 21 2013 05:32 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 05:28 Mondeezy wrote:On February 21 2013 05:11 Requizen wrote:
What change to her E are you talking about?
In teamfights, you should never be one of the first ones in, whether your team is engaging or you are the ones being engaged upon. Dodge big initiates like Amumu ult, Malph ult, or Rupture with your dashes, and then once the bruisers go where they will you charge at the nearest squishy. Hopefully it's the AD, but APs are fine too. Derp, I'm an idiot. Ignore the E comment. Yeah, but for example yesterday I was playing with a team consisting of J4 MF Ahri Leona vs a team of lulu k6 ez malph ryze. Id wait for J4 to initiate, and then follow up while avoiding malph ult. Ryze proceeds to cc me and rock my world while I'm trying to get on Ez, although J4 would ult him effectively blocking me out and Ez would just blink out. If I managed to get close to Ez or Ryze, Lulu would ult me and peel as well. Idk, I just felt as if I was derping in trying to burst someone down but being either CCd or trained before I could effectively do anything. Maybe I'm just playing like a scrub, but my lane phase tends to be very good most games whilst my team fight tends to just suck either due to peels, positioning, or tunnel vision. CC will always be Riven's bane, and just about everybody not named Irelia, having J4 stop you sure doesn't help. Do you have a replay we could look at?
Sadly no. I should start streaming more often for that reason alone tbh.
I guess I should just watch positioning. It sucks to play like Best Riven NA in lane then play like an 800 ELO riven in teamfights lol. Then again I was having an off day yesterday so maybe my vision is just clouded.
Speaking of Best Riven NA, does anyone know why he runs the defensive masteries that he does? I'd provide a link but I'm at work and posting on mobile. He doesn't get the +30 health mastery but instead runs 3/3 in that hp5 one.
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hp5 is better for your laning and mid game if you're good with your shield. You should take minimal damage from poke-oriented harass in most cases, since you can just shield it off when you see it coming and let your regen take care of it.
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To be fair, Requizen, almost no champ is going to be successful trying to dive onto Ezreal with backup from Lulu + Ryze - not even Irelia. Don't even try. Ezreal isn't a super scary AD though (unless he's fed compared to MF)
With MF, setting up a good ulti for MF is priority 1 for teamfighting success. If MF is murdering their entire front line with her ulti, it doesn't matter what Ezreal and Lulu do anymore. Work on getting a good stun off when MF is trying to get her ulti off - extra damage + hold them down. If she gets a great ult off, your own ult active is nothing short of perfect to follow up on it. Riven does enough damage to kill front liners, especially if you (or MF) have black cleaver, doubly especially when you focus with J4 to take advantage of his armor shreds.
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True, worth noting. That's a really slippery comp. Maybe a good Olaf could stick to him and take him down, but I think that's one of those situations where focusing the AD is actually what you don't want to do most of the time.
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On February 21 2013 05:47 Requizen wrote:
hp5 is better for your laning and mid game if you're good with your shield. You should take minimal damage from poke-oriented harass in most cases, since you can just shield it off when you see it coming and let your regen take care of it.
According to the description you need to be pretty low on HP to actually get the regen though, so is it really worth it if most of the time you won't lose much to begin with?
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On February 21 2013 06:10 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 05:47 Requizen wrote:
hp5 is better for your laning and mid game if you're good with your shield. You should take minimal damage from poke-oriented harass in most cases, since you can just shield it off when you see it coming and let your regen take care of it. According to the description you need to be pretty low on HP to actually get the regen though, so is it really worth it if most of the time you won't lose much to begin with?
That doesn't mean that it's not giving you hp5 while you're at 90% though. With a shield and no innate regen outside of your base hp5 (sadly nerfed), the little bit you get is going to help you more than flat health will over time.
That said, of course health is better against burst you can't mitigate or sustained damage you can't escape. I'd wager the flat health will server you better if you're in a lane that will constantly be putting damage on you that you can't wait to heal off, like a particularly pushy Malph or Cho with their passive AoE.
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On February 15 2013 08:58 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 06:24 Slayer91 wrote:
What about when you're level 9, and level 18? Arpen benefits off your base damages, level 2 is more auto attack heavy. Marks OnlyLvl9, double dorans. 3 Qs, 1 W, 5 passive autos. + Show Spoiler +Pen marks, at this point, fall off between 120-130. At 200 armor, they are roughly 8 damage behind. 18 will be tricky, because with BC the order in how things are done matters. Thoughts?
In the mean time, since I've gotten no responses...
lvl14 with 2xDoran, Brutalizer, BT not using ult
+ Show Spoiler +
ArPen marks never fall behind in reasonable situations.
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On February 21 2013 05:40 Requizen wrote:
Well in that situation, there were a few things other than Riven's Kit working against you. Ezreal is really fucking good against J4 because he just laughs at the ult. Ryze is super good against Riven because of his snare, MS boost, and high sustained damage (I assume he also was building pretty tanky on top of it with Glacial and RoA). Lulu is also stupidly good against divers, not even just Riven in particular.
Just a bad situation for Riven. Two things you have to look out for before you pick her which were prevalent in that game:
-Long duration hard CCs. In this case, the Ryze W and Lulu polymorph.
-Slippery ADs. After your initial combo, if they're not dead, you need to stick on them. I assume even if you reached Ez, you'd get E'd away from, Lulu ulted up, and then slowed, right? That's a very bad situation for someone like Riven, you need someone with good hard CC to deal with Ez most of the time.
Looking at your match history, if that's the most recent game with Riven, that was just a really bad team to be Riven against. Your best bet probably would have been to stick around your MF and kill the Kha when he came to dive, then do clean up with your chasing and ult active.
Riven is one of those champs you just can't pick in some situations.
Thanks for the insightful post 
Yeah unfortunately I was like 1st pick, so I probably should've swapped. Kha did little to no damage as he was 1-9 at some point. We largely lost due to the fact our J4 got outsmited at Baron and MF dc'd during the teamfight after, effectively closing the lead he had. I was just curious as to if teamfight wise I was doing ok or eating too much CC, but it looks like in that situation their team composition was brutal.
Ah well. Maybe ill start banning Ryze when I'm going to play Riven, haha. They always play that asshole and he always ends up fed by endgame one way or the other. Other than that I definitely will start looking at team composition before picking from now on, as I tend to just play what I'm comfortable with.
Edit: @Gahlo
So essentially armor pen runes are better in every situation damage-wise? What about with ulti up? I feel like we need to factor in the effectiveness of her E as well since you'd lose the damage scaling if you went with arp runes.
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On February 21 2013 07:25 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 05:40 Requizen wrote:
Well in that situation, there were a few things other than Riven's Kit working against you. Ezreal is really fucking good against J4 because he just laughs at the ult. Ryze is super good against Riven because of his snare, MS boost, and high sustained damage (I assume he also was building pretty tanky on top of it with Glacial and RoA). Lulu is also stupidly good against divers, not even just Riven in particular.
Just a bad situation for Riven. Two things you have to look out for before you pick her which were prevalent in that game:
-Long duration hard CCs. In this case, the Ryze W and Lulu polymorph.
-Slippery ADs. After your initial combo, if they're not dead, you need to stick on them. I assume even if you reached Ez, you'd get E'd away from, Lulu ulted up, and then slowed, right? That's a very bad situation for someone like Riven, you need someone with good hard CC to deal with Ez most of the time.
Looking at your match history, if that's the most recent game with Riven, that was just a really bad team to be Riven against. Your best bet probably would have been to stick around your MF and kill the Kha when he came to dive, then do clean up with your chasing and ult active.
Riven is one of those champs you just can't pick in some situations. Thanks for the insightful post Yeah unfortunately I was like 1st pick, so I probably should've swapped. Kha did little to no damage as he was 1-9 at some point. We largely lost due to the fact our J4 got outsmited at Baron and MF dc'd during the teamfight after, effectively closing the lead he had. I was just curious as to if teamfight wise I was doing ok or eating too much CC, but it looks like in that situation their team composition was brutal. Ah well. Maybe ill start banning Ryze when I'm going to play Riven, haha. They always play that asshole and he always ends up fed by endgame one way or the other. Other than that I definitely will start looking at team composition before picking from now on, as I tend to just play what I'm comfortable with. Edit: @Gahlo So essentially armor pen runes are better in every situation damage-wise? What about with ulti up? I feel like we need to factor in the effectiveness of her E as well since you'd lose the damage scaling if you went with arp runes.
It's something to consider. He's only doing math as it applies to the passive, of course.
I would still wager that flat AD is more helpful because of the shield and multiplicative scaling with your ult, but I'd welcome other veiwpoints as well.
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On February 21 2013 07:25 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 05:40 Requizen wrote:
Well in that situation, there were a few things other than Riven's Kit working against you. Ezreal is really fucking good against J4 because he just laughs at the ult. Ryze is super good against Riven because of his snare, MS boost, and high sustained damage (I assume he also was building pretty tanky on top of it with Glacial and RoA). Lulu is also stupidly good against divers, not even just Riven in particular.
Just a bad situation for Riven. Two things you have to look out for before you pick her which were prevalent in that game:
-Long duration hard CCs. In this case, the Ryze W and Lulu polymorph.
-Slippery ADs. After your initial combo, if they're not dead, you need to stick on them. I assume even if you reached Ez, you'd get E'd away from, Lulu ulted up, and then slowed, right? That's a very bad situation for someone like Riven, you need someone with good hard CC to deal with Ez most of the time.
Looking at your match history, if that's the most recent game with Riven, that was just a really bad team to be Riven against. Your best bet probably would have been to stick around your MF and kill the Kha when he came to dive, then do clean up with your chasing and ult active.
Riven is one of those champs you just can't pick in some situations. Thanks for the insightful post Yeah unfortunately I was like 1st pick, so I probably should've swapped. Kha did little to no damage as he was 1-9 at some point. We largely lost due to the fact our J4 got outsmited at Baron and MF dc'd during the teamfight after, effectively closing the lead he had. I was just curious as to if teamfight wise I was doing ok or eating too much CC, but it looks like in that situation their team composition was brutal. Ah well. Maybe ill start banning Ryze when I'm going to play Riven, haha. They always play that asshole and he always ends up fed by endgame one way or the other. Other than that I definitely will start looking at team composition before picking from now on, as I tend to just play what I'm comfortable with. Edit: @Gahlo So essentially armor pen runes are better in every situation damage-wise? What about with ulti up? I feel like we need to factor in the effectiveness of her E as well since you'd lose the damage scaling if you went with arp runes.
Same setup as my last chart, though with an extra auto+passive charge gained from activating ult. This doesn't include Wind Slash.
+ Show Spoiler +
You'll lose ~12 hp worth of shield, given that the marks only provide ~9ad.
@Req, this is all 3Q, W, and all the passive charged autos with ult active.
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Ah, interesting. I'll likely update the guide to reflect this.
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On February 21 2013 07:59 Requizen wrote:
Ah, interesting. I'll likely update the guide to reflect this.
The last, more daunting, task is to find a combo that is realistic for BC calculations. =S
I'm thinking RE>AA>Q>AA>WQ>AA>Q>AA>AA>AA, but it seems a bit wonky.
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Is there still that glitch with Riven in which you can get a 4th Q out, or was it fixed? Anyone know how to do it properly?
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On February 21 2013 08:10 Mondeezy wrote:
Is there still that glitch with Riven in which you can get a 4th Q out, or was it fixed? Anyone know how to do it properly?
I've seen people say mash Q hardcore, but I've never been able to reproduce it.
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On February 21 2013 08:14 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 08:10 Mondeezy wrote:
Is there still that glitch with Riven in which you can get a 4th Q out, or was it fixed? Anyone know how to do it properly? I've seen people say mash Q hardcore, but I've never been able to reproduce it.
I think it happens when you get CC'd while using Q, and the damage goes off but the cast is still available because you got "interrupted". I don't exactly know, though.
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Well, it's currently 4:30am so...later today I'm gonna do some Phage math.
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I think Phage is a decent item on Riven, but there's too much... not great stuff about it. You don't particularly like either of the upgrades, and while the early health is fine for laning, later on it tapers off. The slow also stops being very useful once you get some CDR for your jumps and stun.
I buy it from time to time if I'm laning against someone I need a lot of health against (Irelia, for example, with her sustained true damage), but it's really super situational.
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People still buy phage? I haven't seen it the last 20+ games I've played I think.
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On February 23 2013 05:03 Sufficiency wrote:
People still buy phage? I haven't seen it the last 20+ games I've played I think.
I like to rush FMallet on Darius, but that's about it.
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