On May 31 2012 10:49 Vaporized wrote: i guess i should say this is at low elo that i use my build. maybe its not as easy to get farmed at higher elo. (although i suspect it is, saintvicious does it routinely) i farm constantly tho, 300cs easy in a normal 45 minute game. + 2x gp5 (i get these asap), and you have a lot of gold to work with. i just played a game where i had triforce, boots2, pd, maw, fromal, 2xgp5 (hog sold for fromal). i make it my priority to farm, ganking comes 2nd, and only if i feel like i can get a kill or assist. i dont waste time not killing things. this particular game i started 1-3 and still managed to get all my items. i just farm always.
before i even knew who SV was i had developed this style of jungle on my own mainly using skarner and shyvana. it feels like the most effective use of the jungle role. if the other team has a 100 cs support naut and i am 300 cs terror hec we are probably going to win everything else being equal.
except everything is likely not going to be equal, because that 100cs naut probably has 10 more assists than you, and his team is up 10 kills from his ganks, and he has the CC to control teamfights while his hella fed team just focuses you down...
if i see an opportuinity to get a kill i take it, because a kill or assist is worth lots of gold. i just dont camp lanes or wait in brush etc. i find it actually easier to get kills on hec then most other jungles because of his gap closing and dps. 20-1-12, 15-4-8 in my last two hec games. 350 cs in one game and 250 in the other.
Wait, so you're just assuming that you're playing against people worse than you who are going to let you get fed every game? Just because you see an enemy doesn't guarantee a kill unless you're already quite far ahead in the first place, and you shouldn't hit that high of CS in the jungle unless you're seriously taxing your laners or something. Maybe if you're invading, I guess. You can't just assume that you'll always get this build by getting the first 5 kills on the field. If you do, great, but if you don't, you shouldn't be neglecting Gp5 or defensive items.
On May 31 2012 10:49 Vaporized wrote: i guess i should say this is at low elo that i use my build. maybe its not as easy to get farmed at higher elo. (although i suspect it is, saintvicious does it routinely) i farm constantly tho, 300cs easy in a normal 45 minute game. + 2x gp5 (i get these asap), and you have a lot of gold to work with. i just played a game where i had triforce, boots2, pd, maw, fromal, 2xgp5 (hog sold for fromal). i make it my priority to farm, ganking comes 2nd, and only if i feel like i can get a kill or assist. i dont waste time not killing things. this particular game i started 1-3 and still managed to get all my items. i just farm always.
before i even knew who SV was i had developed this style of jungle on my own mainly using skarner and shyvana. it feels like the most effective use of the jungle role. if the other team has a 100 cs support naut and i am 300 cs terror hec we are probably going to win everything else being equal.
except everything is likely not going to be equal, because that 100cs naut probably has 10 more assists than you, and his team is up 10 kills from his ganks, and he has the CC to control teamfights while his hella fed team just focuses you down...
if i see an opportuinity to get a kill i take it, because a kill or assist is worth lots of gold. i just dont camp lanes or wait in brush etc. i find it actually easier to get kills on hec then most other jungles because of his gap closing and dps. 20-1-12, 15-4-8 in my last two hec games. 350 cs in one game and 250 in the other.
Wait, so you're just assuming that you're playing against people worse than you who are going to let you get fed every game? Just because you see an enemy doesn't guarantee a kill unless you're already quite far ahead in the first place, and you shouldn't hit that high of CS in the jungle unless you're seriously taxing your laners or something. Maybe if you're invading, I guess. You can't just assume that you'll always get this build by getting the first 5 kills on the field. If you do, great, but if you don't, you shouldn't be neglecting Gp5 or defensive items.
i swear if anyone says anything that doesnt exactly line up with predetermined thoughts then it is immediately discarded.
i didnt say i go 20-1-12 every game. i said it is possible to get your farm through gp5 and cs. enough farm that you can get whatever items you want. i know saintvicious doesnt get 20 kills a game. but you know what he is still top 3 in cs. its not hard. while other ppl are jerking off, you farm. if you watch SV closely he never stops farming no matter what champ he is playing.
its not even necessary to get ANY kills before you get your sheen. as long as you get 2x gp5 and your sheen by about 15-18 minutes you can beast mode the rest of the game EVEN if you are behind.
i just won a 30 min surrender. i had 240 cs (60 more then anyone else), boots2, 2x gp5, triforce, fromal, pd. 9-1-12. when i say hec is a carry i mean i fucking carry. i dont tank. i carry. does your ad carry build tank items? NO. hec has enough mobility and escapes that you can just run away if you are in danger. if you ult in slightly after your tank initiates, and a lot of cd's have been blown, you can mop up ez. hec excels at coming in slightly late and just cleaning up the mess. once u get triforce and pd, you can basically 3-4 shot any squishy if u pop ghost after u ult in.
this is, to me anyway, clearly how hecarim is meant to be played. he scales with movespeed. if he didnt he would be a useless champ with a useless passive. if you are outnumbered in any way you just run the other direction faster then anyone else can chase u.
I've played quite a bit of Hecarim and I don't think building him damage works. I play him as a tank/support jungle with a focus on maximizing the effectiveness of his W.
Smite and Ghost/Flash
Attack speed red/armor yellow/MR/lvl blue/move speed or armor quints (runes are all up to playstyle; that's just what I've been using because tbh it's a pretty cookie cutter page)
9/21/0 masteries
Skill order: WQWEWR R>W>Q>E
Honestly I think his Q needs to do full damage to creeps. Skarner's Q has a similar base damage and mana cost, a lower base CD AND a 48% slow and it does full damage to creeps.
I start boots+3 (boots give you 6 AD at level 1 with your passive) and usually start blue. You could also do wraiths and red first and take E and go for a level 2 gank, but I'm afraid of failing the level 2 gank and falling behind since Hecarim's clear is slow.
After that I go the normal Philo/HoG into tanky CDR. Frozen Heart for armor, and Spirit Visage and Merc Treads for MR (Spirit Visage makes your W heal more). If you are doing well you could try and squeeze a Sheen in there after your GP10 items for some damage. After you are sufficiently tanky go for Triforce. It's very similar to my Skarner build except there's no attack speed focus since I don't build a Wit's End.
Frozen Heart, Spirit Visage, the CDR/lvl mastery in the defense tree should put you at 38.10% CDR. Your W will have an 8.6 second CD and can be used multiple times in a fight.
In teamfights I try to use my ult to initiate and divide teams up. After that is a bit shaky though because while his initiate is great, after that he has pretty much nothing to make you focus him. Skarner can at least permaslow people to help his team kite them, Hecarim can maybe save his E to knock people away from his squishies I guess :x
Basically initiate, get people to blow their spells on you, and when you get low use W to heal back up since your team will be wailing on the enemy. In a large fight his W can be pretty troll for sustaining himself in a fight. For this reason Hecarim is probably better in an AoE comp since there will be overall more damage going out from your team, allowing you to get even more heals. Not to mention the healing isn't capped against champs and there's no penalty for AoEs (according to the Wiki at least).
On June 01 2012 05:09 Ferrose wrote: After that is a bit shaky though because while his initiate is great, after that he has pretty much nothing to make you focus him. Skarner can at least permaslow people to help his team kite them, Hecarim can maybe save his E to knock people away from his squishies I guess :x .
thats why i dont buid him tanky. he gets no boosts to his defense (besides w) from his kit. he has no stun or slow to peel for squishies. he does do massive damage tho if u want him to.
On May 31 2012 10:49 Vaporized wrote: i guess i should say this is at low elo that i use my build. maybe its not as easy to get farmed at higher elo. (although i suspect it is, saintvicious does it routinely) i farm constantly tho, 300cs easy in a normal 45 minute game. + 2x gp5 (i get these asap), and you have a lot of gold to work with. i just played a game where i had triforce, boots2, pd, maw, fromal, 2xgp5 (hog sold for fromal). i make it my priority to farm, ganking comes 2nd, and only if i feel like i can get a kill or assist. i dont waste time not killing things. this particular game i started 1-3 and still managed to get all my items. i just farm always.
before i even knew who SV was i had developed this style of jungle on my own mainly using skarner and shyvana. it feels like the most effective use of the jungle role. if the other team has a 100 cs support naut and i am 300 cs terror hec we are probably going to win everything else being equal.
except everything is likely not going to be equal, because that 100cs naut probably has 10 more assists than you, and his team is up 10 kills from his ganks, and he has the CC to control teamfights while his hella fed team just focuses you down...
if i see an opportuinity to get a kill i take it, because a kill or assist is worth lots of gold. i just dont camp lanes or wait in brush etc. i find it actually easier to get kills on hec then most other jungles because of his gap closing and dps. 20-1-12, 15-4-8 in my last two hec games. 350 cs in one game and 250 in the other.
Wait, so you're just assuming that you're playing against people worse than you who are going to let you get fed every game? Just because you see an enemy doesn't guarantee a kill unless you're already quite far ahead in the first place, and you shouldn't hit that high of CS in the jungle unless you're seriously taxing your laners or something. Maybe if you're invading, I guess. You can't just assume that you'll always get this build by getting the first 5 kills on the field. If you do, great, but if you don't, you shouldn't be neglecting Gp5 or defensive items.
i swear if anyone says anything that doesnt exactly line up with predetermined thoughts then it is immediately discarded.
i didnt say i go 20-1-12 every game. i said it is possible to get your farm through gp5 and cs. enough farm that you can get whatever items you want. i know saintvicious doesnt get 20 kills a game. but you know what he is still top 3 in cs. its not hard. while other ppl are jerking off, you farm. if you watch SV closely he never stops farming no matter what champ he is playing.
its not even necessary to get ANY kills before you get your sheen. as long as you get 2x gp5 and your sheen by about 15-18 minutes you can beast mode the rest of the game EVEN if you are behind.
i just won a 30 min surrender. i had 240 cs (60 more then anyone else), boots2, 2x gp5, triforce, fromal, pd. 9-1-12. when i say hec is a carry i mean i fucking carry. i dont tank. i carry. does your ad carry build tank items? NO. hec has enough mobility and escapes that you can just run away if you are in danger. if you ult in slightly after your tank initiates, and a lot of cd's have been blown, you can mop up ez. hec excels at coming in slightly late and just cleaning up the mess. once u get triforce and pd, you can basically 3-4 shot any squishy if u pop ghost after u ult in.
this is, to me anyway, clearly how hecarim is meant to be played. he scales with movespeed. if he didnt he would be a useless champ with a useless passive. if you are outnumbered in any way you just run the other direction faster then anyone else can chase u.
9-1-12 isn't getting your farm through CS, it's getting fed. With that sort of lead you can use a build randomizer and still stomp faces.
This has nothing to do with going against our predetermined biases and everything to do with the fact that the type of game you describe does not frequently occur within 500 Elo of any of us arguing against you.
i said u can get farmed with only cs and gp5 if u dont get any kills or assists. u get a 17-18 min sheen after gp5 instead of 14-15 min. and in that game where i was 9-1-12 i was 1-0-0 when i got my sheen. basically any kills before you get sheen are just a bonus that let u get sheen sooner. some games i get nothing and can still carry with gp5 and sheen rush.
gp5 is severely underrated. there is a reason pro mid's have started going 3x gp5 if they are a farm oriented champ. the gp5 is a safety net (doubly so in the jungle where farm is at a premium) if you dont get kills you still have the income to get your core items. if you do get kills then great, you are even more ahead. thats at least the 2nd time ive written that in this thread.
on the spectator screen GOLD EARNED is the most prominent visible stat (besides kills). it is the determining factor to who wins the game. gp5 rush gives you an advantage in the mid- and late-games. I can be behind in the early game, but i know my gp5 items will give me an advantage in the mid and late game.
it blows my mind that someone could say finishing triforce for a jungler is iffy, let alone pd or fromal. get gp5 ASAP and keep your jungle clear and you will have a triforce by 25-30 minutes with no kills or assists. but even shitty junglers can manage a few kills or assists by 25 minutes. and if you havent managed to do anything by 25 minutes then you shouldnt be jungling in the first place.
this is a pointless argument. ill continue doing what i do, and you do whatever u want.
Noone's arguing against you buying gp5, if anything that's what we all agree on. We're arguing that building phantom dancers out of the jungle is a fucking retarded choice because you get blown up in every 5v5 engagement. There's a reason why tanky junglers are so prominent nowadays, and it's because it's a lot easier to get tanky with limited gold out of the jungle rather than get enough farm to carry.
i think carrying out of the jungle is born out of the necessity of carrying shitty players in low elo. i dont trust anyone to do anything. i have one of the highest k/d/a/ ratios of all the champs i play on sejuani, but my w/l is only around 50% because sejuani requires teammates to help. whereas on my favored champs - skarner shyv or hec my win rate is closer to 70% because you can carry with the right items and mindset regardless of what your idiot teammates are doing. if i trusted my teammates to benefit from a tanky jungle i would be more willing to go that route, but jesus, people at low elo just dont give a shit, and if you want to win, you have to win the game yourself 9 times out of 10.
ive had games where all my lanes fail miserably (like down 0-4 3 minutes into the game) with my hec build i can carry them and salvage a win almost singlehandedly. this kind of game happens OFTEN at low elo. like 40% of the time. ive had streaks of 10+ games in a row where my team is down 0-3 or 0-4 after just a few minutes. it is infuriating.
Carrying out of the jungle is not feasible just because of how the jungle works. It's why jungling people like Riven or Jax will always be objectively worse than laning with them. There's not as much gold in the jungle as there is in the lanes (especially if you're running out to gank lanes), so heavy carrying items aren't really workable. The only time they are workable is when you get kills. Gp5 and jungle farm won't cover Triforce and PD until way, way, way late into the game.
Is the build good? Sure, yes, if you get kills and have the money, it's a good enough dps build.
In any game where you're playing against people who know what they're doing, the total number of kills of the entire game won't go above ~20, so you can't even assume a single kill or assist before the 15 minute mark in some cases.
If this build/guide is for you at sub 1000 ELO, that's fine, but it shouldn't be the TL official guide. These threads are for higher level playing and theorycrafting, not how to win games when you get fed and everyone else sucks.
On June 04 2012 23:00 arb wrote: I really thought fed Darius was something to behold, but now after seeing fed Hec i just laugh at the statement.
been going boots -> hog/philo -> sheen -> triforce, then frozen heart/situational tanky item
does going wriggles have any real merit? just seems like you kinda lack damage till after sheen unless you get pretty damn fed
I find myself buying Wriggles quite a bit. It helps conserve mana from your W, though Philo in part makes up for that. The Armor is great if you're ganking AD lanes a lot, and the lifesteal is extra help when dueling. I can't decisively say whether it's better than Philo/HoG, but I think they both have their ups and downs. Plus, Wriggle's (as always) has it's prowess as neutral creep control and can help with clearing until you get enough AD/AP for Q/W to clear faster.
Just my $0.02 on the issue. It doesn't really matter overall to me, though, as that early stage of the game goes so fast for Hec, with the power of his ganks and clearing you should be moving into better items quickly (Trinity starting either Phage or Sheen, sometimes Hex).
On June 04 2012 23:00 arb wrote: I really thought fed Darius was something to behold, but now after seeing fed Hec i just laugh at the statement.
been going boots -> hog/philo -> sheen -> triforce, then frozen heart/situational tanky item
does going wriggles have any real merit? just seems like you kinda lack damage till after sheen unless you get pretty damn fed
I find myself buying Wriggles quite a bit. It helps conserve mana from your W, though Philo in part makes up for that. The Armor is great if you're ganking AD lanes a lot, and the lifesteal is extra help when dueling. I can't decisively say whether it's better than Philo/HoG, but I think they both have their ups and downs. Plus, Wriggle's (as always) has it's prowess as neutral creep control and can help with clearing until you get enough AD/AP for Q/W to clear faster.
Just my $0.02 on the issue. It doesn't really matter overall to me, though, as that early stage of the game goes so fast for Hec, with the power of his ganks and clearing you should be moving into better items quickly (Trinity starting either Phage or Sheen, sometimes Hex).
Are you maxing Q or W?
Not maxing Q just makes me think even using its a waste of mana tbh
On June 04 2012 23:00 arb wrote: I really thought fed Darius was something to behold, but now after seeing fed Hec i just laugh at the statement.
been going boots -> hog/philo -> sheen -> triforce, then frozen heart/situational tanky item
does going wriggles have any real merit? just seems like you kinda lack damage till after sheen unless you get pretty damn fed
I find myself buying Wriggles quite a bit. It helps conserve mana from your W, though Philo in part makes up for that. The Armor is great if you're ganking AD lanes a lot, and the lifesteal is extra help when dueling. I can't decisively say whether it's better than Philo/HoG, but I think they both have their ups and downs. Plus, Wriggle's (as always) has it's prowess as neutral creep control and can help with clearing until you get enough AD/AP for Q/W to clear faster.
Just my $0.02 on the issue. It doesn't really matter overall to me, though, as that early stage of the game goes so fast for Hec, with the power of his ganks and clearing you should be moving into better items quickly (Trinity starting either Phage or Sheen, sometimes Hex).
Are you maxing Q or W?
Not maxing Q just makes me think even using its a waste of mana tbh
Depends really on what I feel like. I'll usually go WQWE for jungling then play it by ear from there. Without at least two ranks in the early jungle I feel that I come out for ganks with too little health.
Past that point, Q max is great for straight up dueling, but W has a lot more utility, I find. In big fights, the healing is insane and makes you tanky as hell, and in small fights or single ganks, it can keep you alive in a tower dive or close fight. I generally max W because I play more aggressively and dive when I really shouldn't, the sustain very much helps, and the damage just out of auto range can help with those down-to-the wire kills.
If I am maxing W, though, Q is still very necessary. Rushing Sheen + Q makes you a deadly force, clears stupid fast, and generally is just awesome.
On June 16 2012 02:41 Ferrose wrote: What about Hecarim? Some players like Saint and I Will Dominate have started to play him a bit, and even Oddone admits that he is a decent tank coming out of the jungle.
The last time I watched Oddone play Hecarim he kept raving about how awful he was, Haven't seen Saint or Dominate play him at all though.
The last time I watched Oddone play Hecarim he maxed E before Q or W. You might as well max Bear Stance on jungle Udyr.
Hecarim is a strong jungler, but most players/teams aren't familiar with him and what he can do. The safe build for Hecarim is:
Runes: Movespeed Quints, AD Marks, Armor Seals, MR/Lvl Glyphs
If you get fed or need to do more damage you can build Avarice/GB instead for more damage, but if you build that way you need to be a lot smarter about your positioning and teamfight entrances (hence the "safe" build being more tanky). CDR turns you into a monster because Q is a lot of damage and W is a lot of tankiness.
Could have sworn there was some post regarding a Saintvicious VoD on Hecarim, but can't seem to locate it now.
On June 16 2012 02:41 Ferrose wrote: What about Hecarim? Some players like Saint and I Will Dominate have started to play him a bit, and even Oddone admits that he is a decent tank coming out of the jungle.
The last time I watched Oddone play Hecarim he kept raving about how awful he was, Haven't seen Saint or Dominate play him at all though.
The last time I watched Oddone play Hecarim he maxed E before Q or W. You might as well max Bear Stance on jungle Udyr.
Hecarim is a strong jungler, but most players/teams aren't familiar with him and what he can do. The safe build for Hecarim is:
Runes: Movespeed Quints, AD Marks, Armor Seals, MR/Lvl Glyphs
If you get fed or need to do more damage you can build Avarice/GB instead for more damage, but if you build that way you need to be a lot smarter about your positioning and teamfight entrances (hence the "safe" build being more tanky). CDR turns you into a monster because Q is a lot of damage and W is a lot of tankiness.
Could have sworn there was some post regarding a Saintvicious VoD on Hecarim, but can't seem to locate it now.
EPT
