hecarim has recieved some love recently in part to his popularity on the korean server and also with few certain members of this forum. he is a strong jungler, but takes a bit of time to learn his nuances. stick with it a few games and you will come to see his strengths. he is not without weaknesses however, so dont go in facerolling and wonder why u lose.
JUNGLE GUIDE:
runes: i go move speed quints, mr blue, armor yellow, and ad red. other setups will probably work.
masteries: 9/12/9 is my standard. again other setups will probably work, this is what i go with.
summoner spells: smite and ghost are my choices. ghost lets u zoom zoom even faster.
Skills: Passive: Hecarim ignores unit collision and gains attack damage equal to 10 / 12.5 / 15 / 17.5 / 20 / 22.5 / 25% of his bonus movement speed.
i choose to max this passive through runes/masteries/and my item build. maybe not the most eye-popping passive in the game but it works for hec's kit and provides a unique advantage in that building movespeed is encouraged. Q: Hecarim cleaves nearby enemies, dealing physical damage. (66% damage to minions and monsters) If Hecarim damages at least one enemy unit with this attack, he gains a stack of Rampage, reducing the base cooldown of this skill by 1 second for a short duration. This effect can stack up to 2 times.
hec's bread and butter. max first. W: Hecarim surrounds himself with the spirit of dread for 4 seconds, dealing magic damage per second to all enemies within its reach. Additionally, Hecarim is healed for a percentage of the damage enemies within the area take from any source. Healing from damage dealt to minions is capped per cast.
this skill is really awesome, and gets better the more points you put in it. i max it 2nd. E: Hecarim gains 75% movement speed over the course of three seconds, ending one second afterward. His next attack knocks the target back, dealing physical damage based on how far Hecarim has traveled during Devastating Charge's duration.
useful for chasing or running away. kind of a long cooldown, but still useful in many different ways. max last.
R: Hecarim summons spectral riders and charges forward, dealing magic damage to anyone they strike. Hecarim releases a shockwave when he finishes his charge, dealing additional magic damage and causing nearby enemies to flee in terror away from Hecarim for 1 second.
awesome ult. good for picking up kills over walls and for initiating if you find yourself needing some initiate. also good for escaping if necessary.
ITEMS:rg boots x3 philo hog (or wriggles instead of gp5, make your own choice) triforce maw (surprisingly good on hec)
other good items include your general tanky stuff like randuins (if you got hog), shurielias/frozen heart if no one else on your team has one, force of nature (MOER MOVE SPEED). basically, build to counter whatever is strong on the other team with your first real tanky item, and then build the other one after. spirit visage is also an option for more heals from w.
if you are the main tank/initiate (which hec is also good at with his op ult) you can forgo the triforce/maw and just build tanky from the start. personally, i would pick a different jungler for that role if its clear in champ select you are going to be the main/only tank (sejuani, ali, malphite, naut, etc), but hey, its a free world, do what you want, and hec can certainly fill that role with his disruption ult and w sustain. hec doesnt have the peeling capabilities of some other junglers, but that godlike initiate makes up for a lot.
one thing ive found hec to be extremely good at is coming in after the main initiate, or after your team gets initiated on, and ulting and just cleaning up the mess. this idea also works well in counterganking. wait for the enemy jungler to go in on your laner and then ult or e if you are pre6 and do your thing.
jungling is fairly straightforward: spam q/and or w.
I take it you go 20-0 every game by getting kills "with help from your laners" because I don't see how you farm up anything beyond a triforce in an actual game. Not to mention you'll just get blown up by anything that even glances at you with that build.
I guess the funniest part is that you build a carry jungler and don't get any damage items at all. DRs on ms means you don't get nowhere near as much damage from stacking it. Not to mention his passive is pretty shit anyway.
i just went 20-1-10 lol. i had triforce + 2x pd at 30 min, and sold my gp5 and 1 pd to get my final 6 item build (triforce, boots, pd, lw, fromal, force of nature). the gp5 and hec's natural clear speed let you farm ez. you do ridiculous damage with the build i posted and can easily run away from any bad situation. your w gives you deceptive sustain also. ive played 30 or 40 games with hec and this build is effective.
the gp5 is like a safety net. if you get kills or assists then the gp5 increases your lead that much more (ie. triforce +2x pd at 30 min), if you dont then you are able to farm your jungle quickly and still have enough gold to get your items. and once you get sheen you are beastly, like i said, from that point forward.
hecarim maxes W first, in jungle and in lane. don't max Q first, even after the buff. maybe when it goes to 100% damage to minions. maybe in rare lane cases where you somehow how a 6 minute sheen. otherwise max W.
Why max W first when jungling? You're sacrificing both your ability to clear quickly and your ability to gank effectively for a marginal increase in survivability.
I rather don't like PD on Hec. I find myself going Wriggles/Mercs/HoG early, transitioning into Phage and either TF or some other tanky dps like Wit's or Hexdrinker. Hexdrinker in general is really nice on him for some reason. He does well with Sheen (who doesn't nowadays), but it seems that I get focused a lot in fights so I prefer something that boosts damage and survivability.
One day I'd like to try AP Hec and make his Ult and W death machines. Maybe with like a Lichbane and Rabadoodles?
On May 31 2012 07:53 Seuss wrote: Why max W first when jungling? You're sacrificing both your ability to clear quickly and your ability to gank effectively for a marginal increase in survivability.
Q doesn't clear any faster until you have quite a bit of AD, most of your clearing speed comes from autos (another reason I like Wriggles on him). W makes it so you're almost always topped off for ganks, and can really help those ganks as well for doing damage outside of auto range and also keeping you alive during early game tower dives.
Unless you're magically killing creep camps in under four seconds Q is faster/more damage, even without AD. On the first clear the difference gets lost in the noise, but it doesn't take long for Q to outstrip W.
Also, maxing W first puts the onus on your team to do all the damage in ganks and team fights. For ganks that can work depending on the lane, but in team fights you're basically praying you get focused for no reason like a Rammus with rank 5 DBC.
I said there are other ways to build hec. The way in my post is what I have settled on and trust me, u can dominate with that build. The increase to q damage is noticeable and one pt in w is enough sustain
On May 31 2012 08:59 Vaporized wrote: I said there are other ways to build hec. The way in my post is what I have settled on and trust me, u can dominate with that build. The increase to q damage is noticeable and one pt in w is enough sustain
The problem with your build is that you're spending 11k gold on items before investing in any meaningful defense. Hecarim's W is pretty ridiculous survivability in the right circumstances, but it's not so overpowered that you can completely ignore all defensive items until the late-late game.
If you're extremely fed Trinity Force into 2*PD could possibly work, but it's not reasonable to assume you'll have that kind of money as a top lane, let alone a jungler.
i guess i should say this is at low elo that i use my build. maybe its not as easy to get farmed at higher elo. (although i suspect it is, saintvicious does it routinely) i farm constantly tho, 300cs easy in a normal 45 minute game. + 2x gp5 (i get these asap), and you have a lot of gold to work with. i just played a game where i had triforce, boots2, pd, maw, fromal, 2xgp5 (hog sold for fromal). i make it my priority to farm, ganking comes 2nd, and only if i feel like i can get a kill or assist. i dont waste time not killing things. this particular game i started 1-3 and still managed to get all my items. i just farm always.
before i even knew who SV was i had developed this style of jungle on my own mainly using skarner and shyvana. it feels like the most effective use of the jungle role. if the other team has a 100 cs support naut and i am 300 cs terror hec we are probably going to win everything else being equal.
I typically play AP hecarim now, but when i play regular hecarim i start boots +3 in jungle, get Q E W making Q then E, w last, first item bought is sheen, then philo/HoG. Ending up with (trying to) Merc treads, Reverie, brutalizer, sunfire, Hexdrinker. usually games won't last too much longer than that.
On May 31 2012 10:49 Vaporized wrote: i guess i should say this is at low elo that i use my build. maybe its not as easy to get farmed at higher elo. (although i suspect it is, saintvicious does it routinely) i farm constantly tho, 300cs easy in a normal 45 minute game. + 2x gp5 (i get these asap), and you have a lot of gold to work with. i just played a game where i had triforce, boots2, pd, maw, fromal, 2xgp5 (hog sold for fromal). i make it my priority to farm, ganking comes 2nd, and only if i feel like i can get a kill or assist. i dont waste time not killing things. this particular game i started 1-3 and still managed to get all my items. i just farm always.
before i even knew who SV was i had developed this style of jungle on my own mainly using skarner and shyvana. it feels like the most effective use of the jungle role. if the other team has a 100 cs support naut and i am 300 cs terror hec we are probably going to win everything else being equal.
except everything is likely not going to be equal, because that 100cs naut probably has 10 more assists than you, and his team is up 10 kills from his ganks, and he has the CC to control teamfights while his hella fed team just focuses you down...
On May 31 2012 10:49 Vaporized wrote: i guess i should say this is at low elo that i use my build. maybe its not as easy to get farmed at higher elo. (although i suspect it is, saintvicious does it routinely) i farm constantly tho, 300cs easy in a normal 45 minute game. + 2x gp5 (i get these asap), and you have a lot of gold to work with. i just played a game where i had triforce, boots2, pd, maw, fromal, 2xgp5 (hog sold for fromal). i make it my priority to farm, ganking comes 2nd, and only if i feel like i can get a kill or assist. i dont waste time not killing things. this particular game i started 1-3 and still managed to get all my items. i just farm always.
before i even knew who SV was i had developed this style of jungle on my own mainly using skarner and shyvana. it feels like the most effective use of the jungle role. if the other team has a 100 cs support naut and i am 300 cs terror hec we are probably going to win everything else being equal.
except everything is likely not going to be equal, because that 100cs naut probably has 10 more assists than you, and his team is up 10 kills from his ganks, and he has the CC to control teamfights while his hella fed team just focuses you down...
if i see an opportuinity to get a kill i take it, because a kill or assist is worth lots of gold. i just dont camp lanes or wait in brush etc. i find it actually easier to get kills on hec then most other jungles because of his gap closing and dps. 20-1-12, 15-4-8 in my last two hec games. 350 cs in one game and 250 in the other.
How do you guys feel about Spirit Visage on Hecarim? Overall it's a pretty mediocre item, but it gives some MR and CDR, as well as a boost to healing. Though with Shurelia's and Youmuu's you would go past the cap..
On May 31 2012 10:49 Vaporized wrote: i guess i should say this is at low elo that i use my build. maybe its not as easy to get farmed at higher elo. (although i suspect it is, saintvicious does it routinely) i farm constantly tho, 300cs easy in a normal 45 minute game. + 2x gp5 (i get these asap), and you have a lot of gold to work with. i just played a game where i had triforce, boots2, pd, maw, fromal, 2xgp5 (hog sold for fromal). i make it my priority to farm, ganking comes 2nd, and only if i feel like i can get a kill or assist. i dont waste time not killing things. this particular game i started 1-3 and still managed to get all my items. i just farm always.
before i even knew who SV was i had developed this style of jungle on my own mainly using skarner and shyvana. it feels like the most effective use of the jungle role. if the other team has a 100 cs support naut and i am 300 cs terror hec we are probably going to win everything else being equal.
Saintvicious does not routinely go 20-1-10 at high elo, no one does. You can't pretend like it's normal or easy for that to happen. Similarly, 300cs in a 45 minute game is barely enough for you to finish your second PD. You're arguing for a build where you have near-zero defense for almost an entire 45 minute game, it's terrible.
On May 31 2012 12:52 Mystogun wrote: How do you guys feel about Spirit Visage on Hecarim? Overall it's a pretty mediocre item, but it gives some MR and CDR, as well as a boost to healing. Though with Shurelia's and Youmuu's you would go past the cap..
It's not a terrible idea, but it doesn't seem all that amazing either. You go from 30->34.5% healing on Hecarim's W, which is basically one rank's worth. Unless you really need MR I'd rather build Glacial for a CDR alternative.
On May 31 2012 10:49 Vaporized wrote: i guess i should say this is at low elo that i use my build. maybe its not as easy to get farmed at higher elo. (although i suspect it is, saintvicious does it routinely) i farm constantly tho, 300cs easy in a normal 45 minute game. + 2x gp5 (i get these asap), and you have a lot of gold to work with. i just played a game where i had triforce, boots2, pd, maw, fromal, 2xgp5 (hog sold for fromal). i make it my priority to farm, ganking comes 2nd, and only if i feel like i can get a kill or assist. i dont waste time not killing things. this particular game i started 1-3 and still managed to get all my items. i just farm always.
before i even knew who SV was i had developed this style of jungle on my own mainly using skarner and shyvana. it feels like the most effective use of the jungle role. if the other team has a 100 cs support naut and i am 300 cs terror hec we are probably going to win everything else being equal.
except everything is likely not going to be equal, because that 100cs naut probably has 10 more assists than you, and his team is up 10 kills from his ganks, and he has the CC to control teamfights while his hella fed team just focuses you down...
if i see an opportuinity to get a kill i take it, because a kill or assist is worth lots of gold. i just dont camp lanes or wait in brush etc. i find it actually easier to get kills on hec then most other jungles because of his gap closing and dps. 20-1-12, 15-4-8 in my last two hec games. 350 cs in one game and 250 in the other.
Wait, so you're just assuming that you're playing against people worse than you who are going to let you get fed every game? Just because you see an enemy doesn't guarantee a kill unless you're already quite far ahead in the first place, and you shouldn't hit that high of CS in the jungle unless you're seriously taxing your laners or something. Maybe if you're invading, I guess. You can't just assume that you'll always get this build by getting the first 5 kills on the field. If you do, great, but if you don't, you shouldn't be neglecting Gp5 or defensive items.
On May 31 2012 10:49 Vaporized wrote: i guess i should say this is at low elo that i use my build. maybe its not as easy to get farmed at higher elo. (although i suspect it is, saintvicious does it routinely) i farm constantly tho, 300cs easy in a normal 45 minute game. + 2x gp5 (i get these asap), and you have a lot of gold to work with. i just played a game where i had triforce, boots2, pd, maw, fromal, 2xgp5 (hog sold for fromal). i make it my priority to farm, ganking comes 2nd, and only if i feel like i can get a kill or assist. i dont waste time not killing things. this particular game i started 1-3 and still managed to get all my items. i just farm always.
before i even knew who SV was i had developed this style of jungle on my own mainly using skarner and shyvana. it feels like the most effective use of the jungle role. if the other team has a 100 cs support naut and i am 300 cs terror hec we are probably going to win everything else being equal.
except everything is likely not going to be equal, because that 100cs naut probably has 10 more assists than you, and his team is up 10 kills from his ganks, and he has the CC to control teamfights while his hella fed team just focuses you down...
if i see an opportuinity to get a kill i take it, because a kill or assist is worth lots of gold. i just dont camp lanes or wait in brush etc. i find it actually easier to get kills on hec then most other jungles because of his gap closing and dps. 20-1-12, 15-4-8 in my last two hec games. 350 cs in one game and 250 in the other.
Wait, so you're just assuming that you're playing against people worse than you who are going to let you get fed every game? Just because you see an enemy doesn't guarantee a kill unless you're already quite far ahead in the first place, and you shouldn't hit that high of CS in the jungle unless you're seriously taxing your laners or something. Maybe if you're invading, I guess. You can't just assume that you'll always get this build by getting the first 5 kills on the field. If you do, great, but if you don't, you shouldn't be neglecting Gp5 or defensive items.
i swear if anyone says anything that doesnt exactly line up with predetermined thoughts then it is immediately discarded.
i didnt say i go 20-1-12 every game. i said it is possible to get your farm through gp5 and cs. enough farm that you can get whatever items you want. i know saintvicious doesnt get 20 kills a game. but you know what he is still top 3 in cs. its not hard. while other ppl are jerking off, you farm. if you watch SV closely he never stops farming no matter what champ he is playing.
its not even necessary to get ANY kills before you get your sheen. as long as you get 2x gp5 and your sheen by about 15-18 minutes you can beast mode the rest of the game EVEN if you are behind.
i just won a 30 min surrender. i had 240 cs (60 more then anyone else), boots2, 2x gp5, triforce, fromal, pd. 9-1-12. when i say hec is a carry i mean i fucking carry. i dont tank. i carry. does your ad carry build tank items? NO. hec has enough mobility and escapes that you can just run away if you are in danger. if you ult in slightly after your tank initiates, and a lot of cd's have been blown, you can mop up ez. hec excels at coming in slightly late and just cleaning up the mess. once u get triforce and pd, you can basically 3-4 shot any squishy if u pop ghost after u ult in.
this is, to me anyway, clearly how hecarim is meant to be played. he scales with movespeed. if he didnt he would be a useless champ with a useless passive. if you are outnumbered in any way you just run the other direction faster then anyone else can chase u.
I've played quite a bit of Hecarim and I don't think building him damage works. I play him as a tank/support jungle with a focus on maximizing the effectiveness of his W.
Smite and Ghost/Flash
Attack speed red/armor yellow/MR/lvl blue/move speed or armor quints (runes are all up to playstyle; that's just what I've been using because tbh it's a pretty cookie cutter page)
9/21/0 masteries
Skill order: WQWEWR R>W>Q>E
Honestly I think his Q needs to do full damage to creeps. Skarner's Q has a similar base damage and mana cost, a lower base CD AND a 48% slow and it does full damage to creeps.
I start boots+3 (boots give you 6 AD at level 1 with your passive) and usually start blue. You could also do wraiths and red first and take E and go for a level 2 gank, but I'm afraid of failing the level 2 gank and falling behind since Hecarim's clear is slow.
After that I go the normal Philo/HoG into tanky CDR. Frozen Heart for armor, and Spirit Visage and Merc Treads for MR (Spirit Visage makes your W heal more). If you are doing well you could try and squeeze a Sheen in there after your GP10 items for some damage. After you are sufficiently tanky go for Triforce. It's very similar to my Skarner build except there's no attack speed focus since I don't build a Wit's End.
Frozen Heart, Spirit Visage, the CDR/lvl mastery in the defense tree should put you at 38.10% CDR. Your W will have an 8.6 second CD and can be used multiple times in a fight.
In teamfights I try to use my ult to initiate and divide teams up. After that is a bit shaky though because while his initiate is great, after that he has pretty much nothing to make you focus him. Skarner can at least permaslow people to help his team kite them, Hecarim can maybe save his E to knock people away from his squishies I guess :x
Basically initiate, get people to blow their spells on you, and when you get low use W to heal back up since your team will be wailing on the enemy. In a large fight his W can be pretty troll for sustaining himself in a fight. For this reason Hecarim is probably better in an AoE comp since there will be overall more damage going out from your team, allowing you to get even more heals. Not to mention the healing isn't capped against champs and there's no penalty for AoEs (according to the Wiki at least).
On June 01 2012 05:09 Ferrose wrote: After that is a bit shaky though because while his initiate is great, after that he has pretty much nothing to make you focus him. Skarner can at least permaslow people to help his team kite them, Hecarim can maybe save his E to knock people away from his squishies I guess :x .
thats why i dont buid him tanky. he gets no boosts to his defense (besides w) from his kit. he has no stun or slow to peel for squishies. he does do massive damage tho if u want him to.
On May 31 2012 10:49 Vaporized wrote: i guess i should say this is at low elo that i use my build. maybe its not as easy to get farmed at higher elo. (although i suspect it is, saintvicious does it routinely) i farm constantly tho, 300cs easy in a normal 45 minute game. + 2x gp5 (i get these asap), and you have a lot of gold to work with. i just played a game where i had triforce, boots2, pd, maw, fromal, 2xgp5 (hog sold for fromal). i make it my priority to farm, ganking comes 2nd, and only if i feel like i can get a kill or assist. i dont waste time not killing things. this particular game i started 1-3 and still managed to get all my items. i just farm always.
before i even knew who SV was i had developed this style of jungle on my own mainly using skarner and shyvana. it feels like the most effective use of the jungle role. if the other team has a 100 cs support naut and i am 300 cs terror hec we are probably going to win everything else being equal.
except everything is likely not going to be equal, because that 100cs naut probably has 10 more assists than you, and his team is up 10 kills from his ganks, and he has the CC to control teamfights while his hella fed team just focuses you down...
if i see an opportuinity to get a kill i take it, because a kill or assist is worth lots of gold. i just dont camp lanes or wait in brush etc. i find it actually easier to get kills on hec then most other jungles because of his gap closing and dps. 20-1-12, 15-4-8 in my last two hec games. 350 cs in one game and 250 in the other.
Wait, so you're just assuming that you're playing against people worse than you who are going to let you get fed every game? Just because you see an enemy doesn't guarantee a kill unless you're already quite far ahead in the first place, and you shouldn't hit that high of CS in the jungle unless you're seriously taxing your laners or something. Maybe if you're invading, I guess. You can't just assume that you'll always get this build by getting the first 5 kills on the field. If you do, great, but if you don't, you shouldn't be neglecting Gp5 or defensive items.
i swear if anyone says anything that doesnt exactly line up with predetermined thoughts then it is immediately discarded.
i didnt say i go 20-1-12 every game. i said it is possible to get your farm through gp5 and cs. enough farm that you can get whatever items you want. i know saintvicious doesnt get 20 kills a game. but you know what he is still top 3 in cs. its not hard. while other ppl are jerking off, you farm. if you watch SV closely he never stops farming no matter what champ he is playing.
its not even necessary to get ANY kills before you get your sheen. as long as you get 2x gp5 and your sheen by about 15-18 minutes you can beast mode the rest of the game EVEN if you are behind.
i just won a 30 min surrender. i had 240 cs (60 more then anyone else), boots2, 2x gp5, triforce, fromal, pd. 9-1-12. when i say hec is a carry i mean i fucking carry. i dont tank. i carry. does your ad carry build tank items? NO. hec has enough mobility and escapes that you can just run away if you are in danger. if you ult in slightly after your tank initiates, and a lot of cd's have been blown, you can mop up ez. hec excels at coming in slightly late and just cleaning up the mess. once u get triforce and pd, you can basically 3-4 shot any squishy if u pop ghost after u ult in.
this is, to me anyway, clearly how hecarim is meant to be played. he scales with movespeed. if he didnt he would be a useless champ with a useless passive. if you are outnumbered in any way you just run the other direction faster then anyone else can chase u.
9-1-12 isn't getting your farm through CS, it's getting fed. With that sort of lead you can use a build randomizer and still stomp faces.
This has nothing to do with going against our predetermined biases and everything to do with the fact that the type of game you describe does not frequently occur within 500 Elo of any of us arguing against you.
i said u can get farmed with only cs and gp5 if u dont get any kills or assists. u get a 17-18 min sheen after gp5 instead of 14-15 min. and in that game where i was 9-1-12 i was 1-0-0 when i got my sheen. basically any kills before you get sheen are just a bonus that let u get sheen sooner. some games i get nothing and can still carry with gp5 and sheen rush.
gp5 is severely underrated. there is a reason pro mid's have started going 3x gp5 if they are a farm oriented champ. the gp5 is a safety net (doubly so in the jungle where farm is at a premium) if you dont get kills you still have the income to get your core items. if you do get kills then great, you are even more ahead. thats at least the 2nd time ive written that in this thread.
on the spectator screen GOLD EARNED is the most prominent visible stat (besides kills). it is the determining factor to who wins the game. gp5 rush gives you an advantage in the mid- and late-games. I can be behind in the early game, but i know my gp5 items will give me an advantage in the mid and late game.
it blows my mind that someone could say finishing triforce for a jungler is iffy, let alone pd or fromal. get gp5 ASAP and keep your jungle clear and you will have a triforce by 25-30 minutes with no kills or assists. but even shitty junglers can manage a few kills or assists by 25 minutes. and if you havent managed to do anything by 25 minutes then you shouldnt be jungling in the first place.
this is a pointless argument. ill continue doing what i do, and you do whatever u want.
Noone's arguing against you buying gp5, if anything that's what we all agree on. We're arguing that building phantom dancers out of the jungle is a fucking retarded choice because you get blown up in every 5v5 engagement. There's a reason why tanky junglers are so prominent nowadays, and it's because it's a lot easier to get tanky with limited gold out of the jungle rather than get enough farm to carry.
i think carrying out of the jungle is born out of the necessity of carrying shitty players in low elo. i dont trust anyone to do anything. i have one of the highest k/d/a/ ratios of all the champs i play on sejuani, but my w/l is only around 50% because sejuani requires teammates to help. whereas on my favored champs - skarner shyv or hec my win rate is closer to 70% because you can carry with the right items and mindset regardless of what your idiot teammates are doing. if i trusted my teammates to benefit from a tanky jungle i would be more willing to go that route, but jesus, people at low elo just dont give a shit, and if you want to win, you have to win the game yourself 9 times out of 10.
ive had games where all my lanes fail miserably (like down 0-4 3 minutes into the game) with my hec build i can carry them and salvage a win almost singlehandedly. this kind of game happens OFTEN at low elo. like 40% of the time. ive had streaks of 10+ games in a row where my team is down 0-3 or 0-4 after just a few minutes. it is infuriating.
Carrying out of the jungle is not feasible just because of how the jungle works. It's why jungling people like Riven or Jax will always be objectively worse than laning with them. There's not as much gold in the jungle as there is in the lanes (especially if you're running out to gank lanes), so heavy carrying items aren't really workable. The only time they are workable is when you get kills. Gp5 and jungle farm won't cover Triforce and PD until way, way, way late into the game.
Is the build good? Sure, yes, if you get kills and have the money, it's a good enough dps build.
In any game where you're playing against people who know what they're doing, the total number of kills of the entire game won't go above ~20, so you can't even assume a single kill or assist before the 15 minute mark in some cases.
If this build/guide is for you at sub 1000 ELO, that's fine, but it shouldn't be the TL official guide. These threads are for higher level playing and theorycrafting, not how to win games when you get fed and everyone else sucks.
On June 04 2012 23:00 arb wrote: I really thought fed Darius was something to behold, but now after seeing fed Hec i just laugh at the statement.
been going boots -> hog/philo -> sheen -> triforce, then frozen heart/situational tanky item
does going wriggles have any real merit? just seems like you kinda lack damage till after sheen unless you get pretty damn fed
I find myself buying Wriggles quite a bit. It helps conserve mana from your W, though Philo in part makes up for that. The Armor is great if you're ganking AD lanes a lot, and the lifesteal is extra help when dueling. I can't decisively say whether it's better than Philo/HoG, but I think they both have their ups and downs. Plus, Wriggle's (as always) has it's prowess as neutral creep control and can help with clearing until you get enough AD/AP for Q/W to clear faster.
Just my $0.02 on the issue. It doesn't really matter overall to me, though, as that early stage of the game goes so fast for Hec, with the power of his ganks and clearing you should be moving into better items quickly (Trinity starting either Phage or Sheen, sometimes Hex).
On June 04 2012 23:00 arb wrote: I really thought fed Darius was something to behold, but now after seeing fed Hec i just laugh at the statement.
been going boots -> hog/philo -> sheen -> triforce, then frozen heart/situational tanky item
does going wriggles have any real merit? just seems like you kinda lack damage till after sheen unless you get pretty damn fed
I find myself buying Wriggles quite a bit. It helps conserve mana from your W, though Philo in part makes up for that. The Armor is great if you're ganking AD lanes a lot, and the lifesteal is extra help when dueling. I can't decisively say whether it's better than Philo/HoG, but I think they both have their ups and downs. Plus, Wriggle's (as always) has it's prowess as neutral creep control and can help with clearing until you get enough AD/AP for Q/W to clear faster.
Just my $0.02 on the issue. It doesn't really matter overall to me, though, as that early stage of the game goes so fast for Hec, with the power of his ganks and clearing you should be moving into better items quickly (Trinity starting either Phage or Sheen, sometimes Hex).
Are you maxing Q or W?
Not maxing Q just makes me think even using its a waste of mana tbh
On June 04 2012 23:00 arb wrote: I really thought fed Darius was something to behold, but now after seeing fed Hec i just laugh at the statement.
been going boots -> hog/philo -> sheen -> triforce, then frozen heart/situational tanky item
does going wriggles have any real merit? just seems like you kinda lack damage till after sheen unless you get pretty damn fed
I find myself buying Wriggles quite a bit. It helps conserve mana from your W, though Philo in part makes up for that. The Armor is great if you're ganking AD lanes a lot, and the lifesteal is extra help when dueling. I can't decisively say whether it's better than Philo/HoG, but I think they both have their ups and downs. Plus, Wriggle's (as always) has it's prowess as neutral creep control and can help with clearing until you get enough AD/AP for Q/W to clear faster.
Just my $0.02 on the issue. It doesn't really matter overall to me, though, as that early stage of the game goes so fast for Hec, with the power of his ganks and clearing you should be moving into better items quickly (Trinity starting either Phage or Sheen, sometimes Hex).
Are you maxing Q or W?
Not maxing Q just makes me think even using its a waste of mana tbh
Depends really on what I feel like. I'll usually go WQWE for jungling then play it by ear from there. Without at least two ranks in the early jungle I feel that I come out for ganks with too little health.
Past that point, Q max is great for straight up dueling, but W has a lot more utility, I find. In big fights, the healing is insane and makes you tanky as hell, and in small fights or single ganks, it can keep you alive in a tower dive or close fight. I generally max W because I play more aggressively and dive when I really shouldn't, the sustain very much helps, and the damage just out of auto range can help with those down-to-the wire kills.
If I am maxing W, though, Q is still very necessary. Rushing Sheen + Q makes you a deadly force, clears stupid fast, and generally is just awesome.
On June 16 2012 02:41 Ferrose wrote: What about Hecarim? Some players like Saint and I Will Dominate have started to play him a bit, and even Oddone admits that he is a decent tank coming out of the jungle.
The last time I watched Oddone play Hecarim he kept raving about how awful he was, Haven't seen Saint or Dominate play him at all though.
The last time I watched Oddone play Hecarim he maxed E before Q or W. You might as well max Bear Stance on jungle Udyr.
Hecarim is a strong jungler, but most players/teams aren't familiar with him and what he can do. The safe build for Hecarim is:
Runes: Movespeed Quints, AD Marks, Armor Seals, MR/Lvl Glyphs
If you get fed or need to do more damage you can build Avarice/GB instead for more damage, but if you build that way you need to be a lot smarter about your positioning and teamfight entrances (hence the "safe" build being more tanky). CDR turns you into a monster because Q is a lot of damage and W is a lot of tankiness.
Could have sworn there was some post regarding a Saintvicious VoD on Hecarim, but can't seem to locate it now.
On June 16 2012 02:41 Ferrose wrote: What about Hecarim? Some players like Saint and I Will Dominate have started to play him a bit, and even Oddone admits that he is a decent tank coming out of the jungle.
The last time I watched Oddone play Hecarim he kept raving about how awful he was, Haven't seen Saint or Dominate play him at all though.
The last time I watched Oddone play Hecarim he maxed E before Q or W. You might as well max Bear Stance on jungle Udyr.
Hecarim is a strong jungler, but most players/teams aren't familiar with him and what he can do. The safe build for Hecarim is:
Runes: Movespeed Quints, AD Marks, Armor Seals, MR/Lvl Glyphs
If you get fed or need to do more damage you can build Avarice/GB instead for more damage, but if you build that way you need to be a lot smarter about your positioning and teamfight entrances (hence the "safe" build being more tanky). CDR turns you into a monster because Q is a lot of damage and W is a lot of tankiness.
Could have sworn there was some post regarding a Saintvicious VoD on Hecarim, but can't seem to locate it now.
Been playing Hecarim a lot lately... I never really realized his w heals him for ALL the damage your team does to enemies. Talk about an insane skill. Get a good ult off and sit in the middle of their entire enemy team with 200/200 armor/magic resist and just laugh all day long.
Think he's pretty good, but his midgame feels pretty awkward to me. You really want to get a triforce but you need to be tanky at the same time. Can't really afford to get both as a jungler in any reasonable amount of time. I settled on going wriggles/zeal/phage, then working on tanky items and completing the Triforce later.... but then you're starved for ward slots and it's just really messy. :/ Can't imagine getting gp/10 either, because that just slows down everything so much more.
Maybe skip the wriggles, but then you're running around with low sustain and no low resists.
On August 04 2012 04:26 zer0das wrote: Been playing Hecarim a lot lately... I never really realized his w heals him for ALL the damage your team does to enemies. Talk about an insane skill. Get a good ult off and sit in the middle of their entire enemy team with 200/200 armor/magic resist and just laugh all day long.
Think he's pretty good, but his midgame feels pretty awkward to me. You really want to get a triforce but you need to be tanky at the same time. Can't really afford to get both as a jungler in any reasonable amount of time. I settled on going wriggles/zeal/phage, then working on tanky items and completing the Triforce later.... but then you're starved for ward slots and it's just really messy. :/ Can't imagine getting gp/10 either, because that just slows down everything so much more.
Maybe skip the wriggles, but then you're running around with low sustain and no low resists.
why do you need the zeal so fast? My impression is that hec doesn't desperately want either attackspeed or crit early on. It might be better to skip the zeal for something like warden's mail for omen or glacial shroud, or even just a giant's belt or something like that (not too familiar with hec builds, but you can do a lot with 1195 gold).
On August 04 2012 04:26 zer0das wrote: Been playing Hecarim a lot lately... I never really realized his w heals him for ALL the damage your team does to enemies. Talk about an insane skill. Get a good ult off and sit in the middle of their entire enemy team with 200/200 armor/magic resist and just laugh all day long.
#1 reason people think Hecarim sucks, failing to understand how stupid a skill W is.
On August 04 2012 04:26 zer0das wrote:Think he's pretty good, but his midgame feels pretty awkward to me. You really want to get a triforce but you need to be tanky at the same time. Can't really afford to get both as a jungler in any reasonable amount of time. I settled on going wriggles/zeal/phage, then working on tanky items and completing the Triforce later.... but then you're starved for ward slots and it's just really messy. :/ Can't imagine getting gp/10 either, because that just slows down everything so much more.
Maybe skip the wriggles, but then you're running around with low sustain and no low resists.
I never bother with Wriggle's on him. Literally if you remove Wriggle's from your Wriggle's/Zeal/Phage opening you have enough gold for Trinity. If you really need resistances Aegis is 325g more than Wriggles, but gives you tons of them. If you really have trouble with jungle sustain you can take a second rank in W early to up the healing cap.
I've usually started Philo -> Kindle+Aegis on him because I plan on getting Reverie since CDR is so good on Hecarim, but Trinity is definitely super strong on him. Really as long as you have MR glyphs, Merc's, and some form of health buffer you can do very well in the mid-game even without much in the way of defensive items.
Looking at XJ9's latest games in Elobuff he seems to be experimenting with a Double gp10 -> Trinity + FH mix. In some games he's had Sheen + FH, and others Trinity + Glacial, so he's obviously working out priorities for individual pieces.
I tried removing Wriggles, and yeah, I barely even noticed the difference. Clear speed is slightly slower, but you get the added utlity of phage, etc much sooner. Though I will say it still feels like trinity force takes forever and an age to finish, even if you're doing well...
I also somewhat paradoxically had better dragon control because phage procs netted some kills that wouldn't have happened otherwise leading to easier dragons haha.
Don't build wriggles. Go double gp5 99% of the time. Then if you have enough for glacial when you back, get that. Otherwise a sheen and gank gank gank. Get boots 2 next and finish triforce, then frozen heart. Might need situational negatron/hexdrinker etc.
ideal full build is : boots, hog, philo, triforce, frozen heart, maw of malmortius, --> shureliya + randuin's. Against fed AP you get FoN instead of hexdrinker, but you normally don't even need to bother with that much MR
On August 05 2012 11:44 Perplex wrote: Don't build wriggles. Go double gp5 99% of the time. Then if you have enough for glacial when you back, get that. Otherwise a sheen and gank gank gank. Get boots 2 next and finish triforce, then frozen heart. Might need situational negatron/hexdrinker etc.
ideal full build is : boots, hog, philo, triforce, frozen heart, maw of malmortius, --> shureliya + randuin's. Against fed AP you get FoN instead of hexdrinker, but you normally don't even need to bother with that much MR
No clue why you wouldn't want to get Shurelia sooner; the CDR and active are amazing on him. Extra health is pretty good aswell.
On August 04 2012 04:26 zer0das wrote: Been playing Hecarim a lot lately... I never really realized his w heals him for ALL the damage your team does to enemies. Talk about an insane skill. Get a good ult off and sit in the middle of their entire enemy team with 200/200 armor/magic resist and just laugh all day long.
#1 reason people think Hecarim sucks, failing to understand how stupid a skill W is.
On August 04 2012 04:26 zer0das wrote:Think he's pretty good, but his midgame feels pretty awkward to me. You really want to get a triforce but you need to be tanky at the same time. Can't really afford to get both as a jungler in any reasonable amount of time. I settled on going wriggles/zeal/phage, then working on tanky items and completing the Triforce later.... but then you're starved for ward slots and it's just really messy. :/ Can't imagine getting gp/10 either, because that just slows down everything so much more.
Maybe skip the wriggles, but then you're running around with low sustain and no low resists.
I never bother with Wriggle's on him. Literally if you remove Wriggle's from your Wriggle's/Zeal/Phage opening you have enough gold for Trinity. If you really need resistances Aegis is 325g more than Wriggles, but gives you tons of them. If you really have trouble with jungle sustain you can take a second rank in W early to up the healing cap.
I've usually started Philo -> Kindle+Aegis on him because I plan on getting Reverie since CDR is so good on Hecarim, but Trinity is definitely super strong on him. Really as long as you have MR glyphs, Merc's, and some form of health buffer you can do very well in the mid-game even without much in the way of defensive items.
Looking at XJ9's latest games in Elobuff he seems to be experimenting with a Double gp10 -> Trinity + FH mix. In some games he's had Sheen + FH, and others Trinity + Glacial, so he's obviously working out priorities for individual pieces.
I normally like Philo+HoG into Aegis and Glacial. Triforce is great, but like zer0das said it's hard for me to justify it on a jungler's salary especially since I pick Hecarim to be a tank. But if I do go Triforce I like to get Phage first for the HP, though he makes great use of Sheen like Skarner does with Q, but Zeal is a waste I think because attack speed on crit aren't that great on Hecarim and at the point when you get Zeal it's only gonna give you like 4-5 AD with your passive.
Man, Played probably one of my most intense LoL games ever today with hecarim. Just wondering what should hecarims 6th item be? I had Maw of malmortus (really fed diana), Trinity, randuins, mercs, frozen mallet, aegis. Should i replace aegis with something else or just keep it like that?
On August 08 2012 10:12 LazyFailKid wrote: Man, Played probably one of my most intense LoL games ever today with hecarim. Just wondering what should hecarims 6th item be? I had Maw of malmortus (really fed diana), Trinity, randuins, mercs, frozen mallet, aegis. Should i replace aegis with something else or just keep it like that?
ideal full build is : boots, hog, philo, triforce, frozen heart, maw of malmortius, --> shureliya + randuin's. Against fed AP you get FoN instead of hexdrinker, but you normally don't even need to bother with that much MR. Also might change out shureliya for warmog's or GA if you think you need to be that much more tanky
Hec's my main jungler. Only things I dislike about him are his weird midgame, which is just barely mitigated by Spirit Visage, and his reliance on a good team to follow up your initiate. Skarner's much better than him for soloqueue. Hec is loads better than Rammus, though.
Boots 3, Philo -> HoG, Glacial or Negatron depending on what's a bigger threat, Merc's, Sheen > Phage > Zeal > Triforce.
Endgame build is usually Randuin's, Merc's, Triforce, Frozen Heart, FoN, GA. You do a LOT of damage in a teamfight after you get your CDR items. Also, you never die because of your W.
Shurelya's and Maw of Malmordius are good options, whereas Wriggle's, FM, and Wit's End are usually pretty bad.
Start with W. Skill order is R > Q > W > E. Start boots/3. Get philo, usually gets HoG. Sheen, Mercs, Glacial Shroud (CDR) With blue buff and cdr, you can spam q even more with your sheen.
I don't know why everyone asks what to build on champions, as if there's some kind of standard build order you always need to follow. Look at your team, look at how much damage they do, what they have, and look at the other team. There 5 enemy champions, which do physical or magic damage. Build according to your matchups always.
Triforce, Frozen Heart, Randuins, Maw, Last Whisper are good items to look into. You probably shouldn't ever build something like a Phantom Dancer on this guy.
Start with W. Skill order is R > Q > W > E. Start boots/3. Get philo, usually gets HoG. Sheen, Mercs, Glacial Shroud (CDR) With blue buff and cdr, you can spam q even more with your sheen.
I don't know why everyone asks what to build on champions, as if there's some kind of standard build order you always need to follow. Look at your team, look at how much damage they do, what they have, and look at the other team. There 5 enemy champions, which do physical or magic damage. Build according to your matchups always.
Triforce, Frozen Heart, Randuins, Maw, Last Whisper are good items to look into. You probably shouldn't ever build something like a Phantom Dancer on this guy.
I don't think it's really fair to call ppl out on wanting builds. When you're starting out with a champion, it's really good to have a basic core + follow-through in mind that has been tried and tested by other people. Sure, once you get a grasp of the champion you should def have the flexibility to figure out what you want on the fly, but your first few games are just going to be figuring out how to get the reins on your champion; having a preset buildpath really helps out in terms of just getting out the first steps.
I think it's best if a build path only has like, the first few items though. That above build, for example, looks good. The first items (start through Glacial) is a fine path, but then just saying "TF/FH/Randuin/Maw/LW as needed to deal with builds" is plenty good as a descriptor.
On August 09 2012 07:39 LeeDawg wrote: just played hec for the first time as he's free this week and I thought he was pretty cool. question though: how viable is top hec?
he's like 4x better as an unkillable, get-all-the-farm top-laner than he is as a jungler imo the secret is atmas
I have to say after a lot of games getting used to how he plays Hecarim has definitely joined Skarner as a go-to jungler. Skarner's ganks are a little better most of the time, but Hecarim can carry like a boss.
I've been doing the standard philo, boots, hog. After that I usually get mercs right away, chain vest first into glacial shroud, and immediately after I've been going with phage to start the tri force for the added tankiness because one thing you definitely realize is that he's not as tanky as you'd think when you're getting used to him. With Skarner I feel I can stay in the middle of everything more often but with Hecarim I find that if I jump in with R a lot of times I have to jump out pretty quickly. So as others have stated he's better in a cleanup role where you R over the top of everyone after the fight has already broken out. With earlier ganks they're definitely going to fail until you get used to the fact that you have to get a good E on them pushing them away from their retreat path. Definitely requires your opponent getting caught out further than for a lot of junglers. But once you get used to it, you hit 6, get a good E push on them, then when they recover and start to pull away you R on top of them for the fear and the cleanup and it's a guaranteed kill almost every time like a Skarner ult. So good. Of course usually when they get away the fear procs into the direction they were running already.
Another thing I like about him is that I don't have to complete my philo into a shurelya's. Riding the double gp 10s + his really fast clear speeds + really solid ganks, I'm highest on the team in gold pretty often.
Start with W. Skill order is R > Q > W > E. Start boots/3. Get philo, usually gets HoG. Sheen, Mercs, Glacial Shroud (CDR) With blue buff and cdr, you can spam q even more with your sheen.
I don't know why everyone asks what to build on champions, as if there's some kind of standard build order you always need to follow. Look at your team, look at how much damage they do, what they have, and look at the other team. There 5 enemy champions, which do physical or magic damage. Build according to your matchups always.
Triforce, Frozen Heart, Randuins, Maw, Last Whisper are good items to look into. You probably shouldn't ever build something like a Phantom Dancer on this guy.
I don't think it's really fair to call ppl out on wanting builds. When you're starting out with a champion, it's really good to have a basic core + follow-through in mind that has been tried and tested by other people. Sure, once you get a grasp of the champion you should def have the flexibility to figure out what you want on the fly, but your first few games are just going to be figuring out how to get the reins on your champion; having a preset buildpath really helps out in terms of just getting out the first steps.
What is the reasoning behind the 3 ASPD reds over going full arpen?
On September 02 2012 17:53 zulu_nation8 wrote: does anyone else realize how ridiculously broken this champion is? gonna bust him out in go4lol tomorrow
can you provide some vods afterwards or a very explicitly detailed analysis of how you're using him? because as i (and most of the other jungle-only guys here) have stated time and time again, i just don't think he's as strong as skarner, or even in the top tier of junglers, let alone broken. i'd love to see exactly what you're doing differently than i am. unless you're talking about top lane, in which case i do agree, as he's got infinite sustain and is impossible to gank. but i know you're a jungle main and i just don't see what you could be doing that makes him better than skarner, shyvana, mundo, udyr, etc.
just a reiteration of why i think skarner is much better >hecarim's damage, tankiness and CC are on different skills whereas skarner can level up 2 skills and get everything done. >hecarim has the worst passive in the game, skarner has the best passive in the game. >hecarim's ult particle is extremely slow, easy to dodge, and inconsequential when it does hit. >hecarim is a really poor duelist because of his inability to stick to anyone early-game >hecarim is a really poor carry due to his inability to stick to anyone late-game
i have seen hecarims do well, and i've done well enough times to know that he's a viable champion. but i just don't see him as top tier, or see any reason why he should crack my top 3 most played along with shyv, skarner, ww, udyr.
i'll just throw out there that in my enormous sample space of 2 skarner games and 3 hec games, i'll say that i wreck a lot harder with hec than skarner.
no reasoning behind it tho. Then again, this is from the guy who can't last hit with yorick, so.....
On September 02 2012 17:53 zulu_nation8 wrote: does anyone else realize how ridiculously broken this champion is? gonna bust him out in go4lol tomorrow
can you provide some vods afterwards or a very explicitly detailed analysis of how you're using him? because as i (and most of the other jungle-only guys here) have stated time and time again, i just don't think he's as strong as skarner, or even in the top tier of junglers, let alone broken. i'd love to see exactly what you're doing differently than i am. unless you're talking about top lane, in which case i do agree, as he's got infinite sustain and is impossible to gank. but i know you're a jungle main and i just don't see what you could be doing that makes him better than skarner, shyvana, mundo, udyr, etc.
just a reiteration of why i think skarner is much better >hecarim's damage, tankiness and CC are on different skills whereas skarner can level up 2 skills and get everything done. >hecarim has the worst passive in the game, skarner has the best passive in the game. >hecarim's ult particle is extremely slow, easy to dodge, and inconsequential when it does hit. >hecarim is a really poor duelist because of his inability to stick to anyone early-game >hecarim is a really poor carry due to his inability to stick to anyone late-game
i have seen hecarims do well, and i've done well enough times to know that he's a viable champion. but i just don't see him as top tier, or see any reason why he should crack my top 3 most played along with shyv, skarner, ww, udyr.
As a rebuttal:
1. Irrelevant. Hecarim puts one point in his CC and is done. At the end of the day Skarner has one nigh-useless ability unless you're trolling with an AP build, while Hecarim doesn't. 2. Ignoring unit collision is strong, hyperbole is not a point. 3. Hecarim's ultimate, when landed properly, is far from inconsequential. Between the fear effect and his E an opponent can be displaced by as much as a Blitz grab. 4. Hecarim isn't a bad duelist, he has two incredibly strong tools for closing distance early-game, and his primary damage abilities don't require him to stop to be used. Sticking to targets isn't that hard. 5. Hecarim can stick to people late game better than Skarner, simply by virtue of having an easier time getting to them in the first place.
I'm not saying Hecarim is better than Skarner or vice versa, but at the end of the day the problem is less that Hecarim is bad and more that you and others have the "Skarner 2.0" label he briefly received stuck in your heads. He is not Skarner, you do not play him like Skarner, and trying to compare him 1 to 1 with Skarner is ultimately an exercise in futility.
He's a weaker duelist than most junglers early game (which I think is why he's not that popular), but he can run away from most bad situations, so it is only problematic if they counter jungle you extensively.
It kind of boggles my mind someone would say he can't stick to people late game though. Huh? He's faster than Skarner with his e, and the enemy team can't take that from you. I can't count the number of times I've chased a straggler on the enemy team down across multiple screens and killed them. Phage procs are generally more than enough given how fast he is.
Hecarim controls space extremely well. He excels in 5v5 teamfights, because his power largely scales off the health restored from his w. If the game is relatlvely even, he's an excellent siege breaker, because if the enemy team makes the smallest positioning error, you just leap into them and if your team follows up properly, they're all probably going to die.
What does Skarner to try to break a siege? Spam his e and pray the enemy makes an unbelievably stupid positioning error. Hecarim can force errors. Most of my Hecarim wins come down to the enemy team sieging a turret (usually with an advantage), eating a Hecarim ult and then getting absolutely destroyed by the followup.
Being a strong duelist is not a requirement for a good jungler. Junglers have strengths and weaknesses, you play them to their strengths, and Hecarim's strengths are ridiculous. Hecarim is a better jungler than Skarner in almost every situation. I really don't think it's close at all. Hecarim has a very strong chance of being consistently picked in tourney play in the near future, while Skarner has no chance. There are many reasons to this but I will not discuss further unless scip wants to know.
On September 03 2012 17:17 zulu_nation8 wrote: Being a strong duelist is not a requirement for a good jungler. Junglers have strengths and weaknesses, you play them to their strengths, and Hecarim's strengths are ridiculous. Hecarim is a better jungler than Skarner in almost every situation. I really don't think it's close at all. Hecarim has a very strong chance of being consistently picked in tourney play in the near future, while Skarner has no chance. There are many reasons to this but I will not discuss further unless scip wants to know.
i just feel like that's something that pro teams would have picked up on if it was true. i've seen hecarim only once in a high level tourney game, run by saintvicious right after he joined curse; i'm nearly positive that pick was him trying to show that he could beat hotshot even with a subpar jungler (believe hotshot had mundo). turns out, it didn't pay off. saint was 3-1-somehighnumberofassists, and was the last to die in every teamfight. but he also did 0 damage and in a competitive setting where everyone is on high alert for initiates, his ult rarely hit more than one person and i only saw him get an ult-E combo off once one a target that didn't matter.
to be fair, elementz was a lot worse back then, so i will accept that there might have been other factors leading to the loss. but in terms of me eagerly watching saint's stream for how a "pro" might play hec differently, i was disappointed. he basically followed monte's exact build/style, and had about as much success as you'd think hec would, which is to say, not as much as shyvana would have.
so if there's something that you know, that SV doesn't, that no other pro team knows, i'm VERY EAGER to hear it. i spent real cash dollas on a skin for hecarim and i enjoy playing him a ton. do you gank often? do you have a special route? do you counterjungle? is he strong against certain picks? is he strong in certain comps? what is your build? i've tried many many things on hecarim and until i see the magic build that i haven't tried yet, i'm prone to think he's just simply not as good as other junglers
and i still maintain my stance that his top lane is very strong
He moves fast, clears fast, can gank through lane with R, can gank from side with E, can R then E back, W makes him tanky. How do you not do well with a jungler who ganks fast and clears fast.
i just feel like your standard jungle low-income build is really unsuited to his kit - i feel like he needs a good deal of damage and a good deal of resists, something that neither philo/hog offer (but something that he gets easily from top lane, which is why i like playing him there). he feels innately flimsy compared to shyv/skarner/mundo/udyr and every ult feels like a suicide dive - but i do no damage with it. maybe he's better in 5s and i will admit i've never played him in 5s
On September 03 2012 17:17 zulu_nation8 wrote: Being a strong duelist is not a requirement for a good jungler. Junglers have strengths and weaknesses, you play them to their strengths, and Hecarim's strengths are ridiculous. Hecarim is a better jungler than Skarner in almost every situation. I really don't think it's close at all. Hecarim has a very strong chance of being consistently picked in tourney play in the near future, while Skarner has no chance. There are many reasons to this but I will not discuss further unless scip wants to know.
i just feel like that's something that pro teams would have picked up on if it was true. i've seen hecarim only once in a high level tourney game, run by saintvicious right after he joined curse; i'm nearly positive that pick was him trying to show that he could beat hotshot even with a subpar jungler (believe hotshot had mundo). turns out, it didn't pay off. saint was 3-1-somehighnumberofassists, and was the last to die in every teamfight. but he also did 0 damage and in a competitive setting where everyone is on high alert for initiates, his ult rarely hit more than one person and i only saw him get an ult-E combo off once one a target that didn't matter.
to be fair, elementz was a lot worse back then, so i will accept that there might have been other factors leading to the loss. but in terms of me eagerly watching saint's stream for how a "pro" might play hec differently, i was disappointed. he basically followed monte's exact build/style, and had about as much success as you'd think hec would, which is to say, not as much as shyvana would have.
so if there's something that you know, that SV doesn't, that no other pro team knows, i'm VERY EAGER to hear it. i spent real cash dollas on a skin for hecarim and i enjoy playing him a ton. do you gank often? do you have a special route? do you counterjungle? is he strong against certain picks? is he strong in certain comps? what is your build? i've tried many many things on hecarim and until i see the magic build that i haven't tried yet, i'm prone to think he's just simply not as good as other junglers
and i still maintain my stance that his top lane is very strong
The first pro I saw play Hecarim was TheOddOne, and he decided to max E first. He quickly concluded Hecarim sucked. Just because they're pro doesn't mean they know what the hell they're doing when they play a new jungler for the first time.
I don't build HoG anymore on pretty much any of the "double gp10" junglers. You're supposed to be dominating the early game, HoG doesn't help you do that anymore than a plain Ruby Crystal. I either go Kindlegem or Aegis instead. My build is usually Philo -> Aegis -> Brutalizer (if fed) / Glacial (if not or if I'm the only tank) -> Shurelya's. I've also had success with Sheen before Glacial/Shurelya's. Ghostblade is ridiculously good on Hecarim, as are resistance items.
I gank often, but unless I know there's no ward I either lane gank or go the long way around. If you know they have flash and have good reflexes avoid landing your E because good players will flash so that you push them further away. Bait it and then chase them down. I also like ghost more than flash on Hecarim, though that choice means you can't steal Dragon/Baron easily.
A question on ghost vs flash, could you provide a reason for picking ghost? To me ghost seems completely redundant (like, COMPLETELY) because the unit collision is covered by his passive, and the speed boost is covered by both his e and shurelia's. Flash, on the other hand, always has it's uses. You can use it over walls to escape etc etc like normal, but you can also use it offensively during ganks to position for a good e knockback. I don't know, to me it just seems flash has way more uses on heca, whereas every single aspect of ghost is already covered for in his abilities and even more with shurelia's o.O
I've been running Flash exclusively for a while, I much prefer my "get out of shit situation free" card. Ghost is somewhat useful if the enemy wards really hard (Ghost + E + maybe Shurelia = lolwards), or if they have MS boosts of their own for stronger sticking power, but I think the usefulness of Flash far outweighs Ghost.
Flash is def better on Hecarim. While it's easy to go "oh hey more speed = more damage", it's hardly significant enough to make up for the escaping and initiating power of Flash. Flashing to the other side of someone for the E knockback can make or break a gank.
On September 18 2012 18:16 Solaris.playgu wrote: A question on ghost vs flash, could you provide a reason for picking ghost? To me ghost seems completely redundant (like, COMPLETELY) because the unit collision is covered by his passive, and the speed boost is covered by both his e and shurelia's. Flash, on the other hand, always has it's uses. You can use it over walls to escape etc etc like normal, but you can also use it offensively during ganks to position for a good e knockback. I don't know, to me it just seems flash has way more uses on heca, whereas every single aspect of ghost is already covered for in his abilities and even more with shurelia's o.O
I like Ghost for a number of reasons.
Ghost is better for ganking. The additional movement speed covers at least twice the distance of Flash over its duration, sets you up for an ult + E combo, and even gives a little extra AD.
Ghost is better for counter-ganking. Being able to rush to lane that's being ganked by chaining Ghost with E is incredibly powerful.
Ghost has a shorter cooldown. The 40-55 seconds add up during the early game.
Ghost is better late-game. Hecarim's big problem late game is that you Shurelya's -> Ult -> E to start most teamfights, leaving you without any gap closing tools unless you got fed and were able to build Ghostblade. Ghost fills that gap perfectly, giving you the sticking power you need to be relevant.
That's not to say taking Flash is a bad decision, but the only time I find myself thinking, "Gee, I wish I'd taken Flash" is when my team is already losing and I can't flash -> steal dragon/baron -> ult to safety. I can't think of any ganks where Flash would have been more useful than Ghost.
Oh yeah, I asked in GD a week or so ago, but has anyone laned Hecarim at all? Obvious issue is pushing the lane really hard, but he's difficult to gank (2 enemies + W + Q spam is good healing and then E to gtfo), has nice sustain, and can roam to mid or dragon really hard with E and ult.
Probably sub-optimal, but something to think about?
On September 19 2012 00:49 zulu_nation8 wrote: chauster says hecarim is better top than in jungle
It seems decent. You duel pretty decently and can disengage well (two strong points for a top laner), and can farm and push well, then with TF and GA he's pretty monstrous.
I just got hecarim and have been playing him. Oddly enough, I was motivated to do so after playing a ranked game where someone called top and instalocked hecarim and was like "yes im going top, trust me". The rest of the team bitched at him but he carried the game hard, ganking mid and counter jungling like crazy.
I mostly jungle in general but I've found him to be underwhelming after a few games. Early his clear/sustain and his ganks seem bleh, and I feel like he wants too much money to buy too many wards/oracles. I feel like there are junglers who are just better all around (specifically for me i feel like amumu or nautilus would be better choices in either direction)
Taking him top though, was awesome! He has good sustain and so much utility late game that you just need to hang around and not get killed, which isn't that hard with his passive, W, and E. My experience could be heavily warped from reality (since my elo is ~1200 and I'm relatively new at lol), but I'd still love to hear more detailed suggestions and thoughts from better players. For the time being I've settled on ninja/merc depending, philo stone, frozen heart, and spirit visage as my first 4 items. Sheen/Trinity seems strong on him, but until I'm much better at managing him in lane it's probably best for me to err on the side of tanky
I didn't know there was a hec thread. I like the guide though, though I dislike the gp10s portion of it that's personal preference and not something that's almost definitely bad.
Copypasta from GD since I was trawling for clippity-clop content which hadn't made it to this thread:
On October 25 2012 13:49 HazMat wrote: God Hecarim is op in solo queue. I haven't had a game where I haven't dominated. His Q is trash, his W is trash, his E is only good with shurelyas or ghost or ult but somehow he's so good. I think it's the wave clear + gank potential that you can abuse if you play an aggressive tax style.
On November 01 2012 06:48 LaNague wrote: can someone point me to a hecarim guide or explain to me how they play him?
i have seen various people mentioning hecarim in the lifereport threads, but there is no comparable guide to be found here i think? Only pointer i have is shakedrizzles lolking match history :D
My match history is secret kthnx. iuno I build Hecarim different from anyone.
Boots 1 Philo Brutalizer Shurelyas Boots 5 or Mercs Sunfire Cape or FH (trying Sunfire because with FH I waste 5% cdr....FH still better if no one no your team is getting it) Some MR item
9/21/0, 25apen runes. Probably not smart to follow it but works for me. I really dislike the Triforce build.
I didn't catch the Dignitas MLG games where IWD played Hecarim - anyone know his runes/masteries/build, etc?
Edit: Just caught a Hecarim on a featured game (marshed), where he built an early Spirit Visage for CDR/MR, as well as minor synergy w/Hec's W. Not entirely convinced it was a better buy than turning his Philo into a Reverie, etc.
I play top hecarim and jungle hecarim with advice from a bunch of Japanese plat/diamonds, it goes like this:
MS/arp/armor/scaling MR 9/21/0 ignite/(ghost/flash) for lane 0/21/9 smite/ghost for jungle
The reason you take ghost always in jungle is because ghost + red buff is retarded
QW(E/Q)(E/Q)QR R>Q>W>E in jungle depending on when you're ganking
Q(E/W)(E/W)QQR R>Q>W>E in top depending on stuff like ganks/sustain/dives/all-in
Jungle build boots + 3 pot philo/hog sheen glacial shroud diverge into FH/spirit visage/randuins/reverie/finish triforce if you're carrying but sheen is OP by itself (make sure you tell your support to get aegis because you won't be carrying it because of FH)
Lane build boots + 3 pot tabi OR sheen OR glacial depending on lane diverge into phage/SV/FH/bruta/whatever you need
Sunfire/Sheen/Torch is good on dominion if you play that too
I choose either sheen or Bruta for damage, then hit the tankiness hard, unless I'm really snowballing in which case I grab the early tri force (tri force on heca before 20minutes is mad damage)
I like E -> ult -> auto them back towards team/away from tower, etc. That way you get the extra damage on E from covering the distance you travel with your ult. Extra damage just for pressing E before R? Sure, why not!
What have people been building on him S3? I know XJ9 rushes Fist but he also gets like more CS than his laners
So far I've been going machete x5 -> boots -> stone -> mercs -> kindle -> and then I'm unsatisfied with where I want to go from there
I know for sure that I want to pick up Visage since it got crazy buffed and is now probably the best MR item in the game for Hecarim.
Sunfire is an OK choice since Hecarim does a lot of teamfight AoE damage, but the stats are pretty meh tbh. Fist is insanely good but also costs a million dollars. I've been trying kindle -> randuins -> SV because after you initiate, you actually do piss poor damage to carries (unlike say Mundo) and I feel like its better to go for peeling/disruption items (hence permaslow fist being so good)
Tank stone upgrade feels superior to sunfire really, but then you double does on tenacity. The reason why I want mercs is because T2 boots is OP and I'm not going to buy any MR for a long time so if I go tabi tank stone there's a big MR hole.
On December 31 2012 15:14 xes wrote: What have people been building on him S3? I know XJ9 rushes Fist but he also gets like more CS than his laners.
This is very important to note. Fist is a very expensive item that barely gives any tanky stats. You can only get it if you're really fed or are tanky already and need damage. I like SV for MR, Sunfire for armor. I think Spirit of the Lizard Elder is a great item for damage later on. Otherwise all the normal tanky items are fine on Hecarim. He's as strong as ever with his buff and the new jungle.
On December 31 2012 15:14 xes wrote: What have people been building on him S3? I know XJ9 rushes Fist but he also gets like more CS than his laners
So far I've been going machete x5 -> boots -> stone -> mercs -> kindle -> and then I'm unsatisfied with where I want to go from there
I know for sure that I want to pick up Visage since it got crazy buffed and is now probably the best MR item in the game for Hecarim.
Sunfire is an OK choice since Hecarim does a lot of teamfight AoE damage, but the stats are pretty meh tbh. Fist is insanely good but also costs a million dollars. I've been trying kindle -> randuins -> SV because after you initiate, you actually do piss poor damage to carries (unlike say Mundo) and I feel like its better to go for peeling/disruption items (hence permaslow fist being so good)
Tank stone upgrade feels superior to sunfire really, but then you double does on tenacity. The reason why I want mercs is because T2 boots is OP and I'm not going to buy any MR for a long time so if I go tabi tank stone there's a big MR hole.
Rushing fist is fine, hell 5hit' build on the previous page is Sheen>Glacial which is the exact same as what you do now but you get the go to fist after.
On January 01 2013 19:45 zulu_nation8 wrote: you cant rush fist if youre not fed or have same farm as your solos, you would be really squishy and die after you initiate.
Merc treads + Glacial is not that squishy though, sure you don't have as much as if you rushed a straight tanky build but still.
Been getting a giants belt before grabbing Fist, youre already hella tanky with your W, you can get away with fist since it builds from glacial aslong as you have some HP.
for the reasons stated ive taken to playing him top and found that he actually crushes pretty hard up in there in a lot of matchups. as soon as you get fist you're a god.
On January 02 2013 15:19 VayneAuthority wrote: for the reasons stated ive taken to playing him top and found that he actually crushes pretty hard up in there in a lot of matchups. as soon as you get fist you're a god.
i've been playing alot of hecarim top lane lately and he's such a beast. fist + kindle gem + brutalizer (depends if you're fed) makes him an unstoppable beast. my games never go long enough but is last whisper worth it on him?
What kind of runes are people running on Hecarim now? I saw a person on youtube going AD reds, AR yellows, Mr/lvl blues and MS quints, and have been using that for a while. I do find that I end up pretty low after a clear though, so I was wondering if anyone else has come up with anything.
I've been running AD/Armor/flat CDR/Armpen (or maybe it's armpen on reds and AD on quints? I forget which one is more efficient). Flat CDR does noticeably speed up the first clear over MR blues.
On January 09 2013 06:15 Dark_Chill wrote: What kind of runes are people running on Hecarim now? I saw a person on youtube going AD reds, AR yellows, Mr/lvl blues and MS quints, and have been using that for a while. I do find that I end up pretty low after a clear though, so I was wondering if anyone else has come up with anything.
On January 11 2013 03:29 Imperium11 wrote: As an MR item do people prefer Maw or SV?
SV out of the jungle. I haven't played Hec top but I suspect it would still be SV. It provides more MR and Hec's W is super op since in the initiation, you can nearly nullify a huge chunk of opponent's burst if your team has any burst themselves
Even if you had to build a Hexdrinker for lane, if you still need more MR, SV gives you more eHP vs magic than the upgrade to Maw.
It was already super precarious to get Triforce in season 2. Costs too much, and you're not going to survive for long in teamfights you rush it. Which is about the only situation you'll be able to get it.
So Hec is going to be even lower after his first clear now? I'm getting the feeling that since he wasn't an amazing champ before despite his pretty awesome ganking and initiation, he's going to fall a lot more into obscurity than he already was now.
Then I'm probably doing something wrong, because I always feel like ganking is a bit dangerous unless it's set up perfectly, as opposed to someone like Noct, whom I feel safe ganking with at pretty much any time.
On January 13 2013 05:01 5miley wrote: Why do you guys build gauntlet instead of triforce?
Armor, CDR, aoe slow that procs with sheen, also gives more mana than a triforce and is cheaper.
I generally build him the following way:
Machete+5 Pots into Boots+Spirit Stone into Lizard Elder into Sheen into MercThreads into Iceborn Gauntlet into Spirit Visage. If the game still goes on, I build a cleaver and whatever I want to. I even built rylai as 6th item, but tend to prefer randuins or sunfire if they have fuckton of physical dmg (which seems to be the meta). I love the way everyone focuses me when I do that build because I look so squishy to them (due to the fact that I build the only tank item the last).
Also I don't know why people call Hecarim "pony" or "horsie". He's a fucking ghost rider.
Bought Heca in S2, though he was pretty Ok, still I preferred to jungle Olaf, J4 or Amumu. Then S3 came, I've switched totally to Olaf and J4, because Amumu just gets banned all the time.
But with the recent Olaf cockslap I've tried out other junglers, including hecarim. It was a slaughter, with the gauntlet hecarim became SO strong i couldn't believe my eyes. He was wrecking havoc game after game. Even if the game were lost I usually ended up with good stats.
So right now Heca is my main jungler, expect if enemy team picks shaco, as it is pain to deal with.
On January 13 2013 05:01 5miley wrote: Why do you guys build gauntlet instead of triforce?
Armor, CDR, aoe slow that procs with sheen, also gives more mana than a triforce and is cheaper.
I generally build him the following way:
Machete+5 Pots into Boots+Spirit Stone into Lizard Elder into Sheen into MercThreads into Iceborn Gauntlet into Spirit Visage. If the game still goes on, I build a cleaver and whatever I want to. I even built rylai as 6th item, but tend to prefer randuins or sunfire if they have fuckton of physical dmg (which seems to be the meta). I love the way everyone focuses me when I do that build because I look so squishy to them (due to the fact that I build the only tank item the last).
Also I don't know why people call Hecarim "pony" or "horsie". He's a fucking ghost rider.
Don't really see the point of getting Lizard elder so soon, maybe only if you already got 2 or more kills only. As I think gauntlet is preferred item. I would consider last 2 Items to be ravenous hydra and warmog or hextech.
I've been having a lot of trouble getting my first clear in full unless I get a smiteless leash. If it's smiteless, I have no trouble getting red and ganking, otherwise, I'm too low to get red and gank right after.
as far as build, I've been copying theoddone: spiritstone-mercs-lizard elder- locket-SV after that it's situational. i usually go triforce as my last item with either sunfire cape or aegis as my 5th item. depending on what my support/top are getting. I've been having a TON of success with it too. right now hec is my most played champ for the last few weeks...
what runes/masteries/skill builds are you going? You might be going qe instead of qwe and thats where you're having problems. I've been loving a ss swifties sheen omen sv fist Golum ga path myself. the swifties sheen build for me makes me very very strong early-mid game for damage and then once I get an omen my ult is the most insane initiation/counter initiation combo.
I got a 15 ad mark/quints armor yellows and scaling mr blues and run 9/21/0 and I clear fine and am able to do that 3-4 minute level 3 gank that always seems to work out.
And I agree I've had a lot of fun and success with him in the jungle. I don't think oddones build works at my level because the lane phase ends a lot earlier and I'm doing a lot of counter ganks so I need swifties sheen to win those fights and then I need a warmogs item when all the towers are dead at like 15 minutes. I get a lot of threat at level one so I'd rather smite my blue and just gank without red beacuse of how strong of a ganking tool e is.
For runes I go pretty standard: flat AD marks (or armpen, depending of preferences) Armor seals (obviously) Scaling MR Glyphs (flat also ok, but IMO heca benefit more from them in mid-early late, when apc's are strong) Move speed Quints (this is a MUST on heca)
For masteries I go 9/0/21 I don't think that heca really need much in attack masteries, so i get only nite for cdr and stuff. You don't really need armor. because sustain from your (W) is HUGE Utility tree just benefits so good to Hecarims game.
I actually don't like ganks pre 6 and tend to not to go out of the jungle too much (only if some line is pushed very hard), also I let my teammates know about it at start of match.
As for Items Start Machete>Boots>Sheen>Tabi or Merc Hecarim is vulnerable to counter-jungling so I like to get early sheen just to feel safer in 1v1 that might occur. Sheen passive + (W) is great. Also it helps in ganks.
Usually next I get Spirit of elder lizard for TEH DAMAGE and early cdr. At this stage ganking is pretty much nonstop for me, I'm only avoiding sitting in one place. But overall idea in the back of my head is FARM FARM FARM.
After I get Glacial it's towerdive-o-rama.
Then the Gauntlet as it is insanely awesome. And a MUST have on Heca. After SV or Sunfire, depending how's the situation, but preferably spirit visage.
Its probably just play style differences but I prefer the 21 in defence just beacuse of how good w is late game. I love the tenacity stacking from swifties/golum/tenacious/relentless and turn hecarim into a tanking monster mid-late game with an omen early for the epic initiation. I find it humorous that you say you focus at farm at some point but you don't have the match history of getting more then 150 cs .
No offence but I would feel really weak early game if I went for a lizard into fist without building any giants belt items an omen with 70 armor 500 health the most wicked defensive passive in the game and a really nice follow up to your ult just screams like it would be the first item you would want on hecarim (past sheen and boots ofc)
On February 15 2013 00:00 Sermokala wrote: Its probably just play style differences but I prefer the 21 in defence just beacuse of how good w is late game. I love the tenacity stacking from swifties/golum/tenacious/relentless and turn hecarim into a tanking monster mid-late game with an omen early for the epic initiation. I find it humorous that you say you focus at farm at some point but you don't have the match history of getting more then 150 cs .
No offence but I would feel really weak early game if I went for a lizard into fist without building any giants belt items an omen with 70 armor 500 health the most wicked defensive passive in the game and a really nice follow up to your ult just screams like it would be the first item you would want on hecarim (past sheen and boots ofc)
You are right about cs, but as I stated I just love ganking past 6.
And yea probably just the build difference. Early in the game I just try not to engage at unfavorable position. But then again I recently saw Lizard > Warmog build.
Meh, warmogs. Resists make your W even more ridiculous, though I guess with the amount of armor pen that flies around, going overboard could be awkward when they get cleaver+LW and laugh at your 200 armor
Hecarim has strong ganks after E, so don't be afraid to be a morning-ruiner. I'm not a huge fan of Frozen Fist. Compared to Sheen and Glacial Shroud individually, it gives more armor, a small boost in damage and no CDR.
I like getting as tanky as possible as fast as possible, which to me means Glacial Shroud, Spirit Visage, then whatever auras my team doesn't have yet. For damage I pretty much only ever get Sheen, and I don't upgrade it until I need space or if the slow-carpet is necessary.
On February 15 2013 04:54 Tooplark wrote: Hecarim has strong ganks after E, so don't be afraid to be a morning-ruiner. I'm not a huge fan of Frozen Fist. Compared to Sheen and Glacial Shroud individually, it gives more armor, a small boost in damage and no CDR.
I like getting as tanky as possible as fast as possible, which to me means Glacial Shroud, Spirit Visage, then whatever auras my team doesn't have yet. For damage I pretty much only ever get Sheen, and I don't upgrade it until I need space or if the slow-carpet is necessary.
Yep, at 3 or 4 you should definitely go pressure a lane, preferably one that is pushed. But yeah the key to playing hec is to just not be afraid to initiate a fight. He is godly if you build him tanky and aren't afraid to just dive right in.
On February 15 2013 04:54 Tooplark wrote: Hecarim has strong ganks after E, so don't be afraid to be a morning-ruiner. I'm not a huge fan of Frozen Fist. Compared to Sheen and Glacial Shroud individually, it gives more armor, a small boost in damage and no CDR.
I like getting as tanky as possible as fast as possible, which to me means Glacial Shroud, Spirit Visage, then whatever auras my team doesn't have yet. For damage I pretty much only ever get Sheen, and I don't upgrade it until I need space or if the slow-carpet is necessary.
The stick it provides is really worth it for hecarim imo
Just read LoL forums. Seems that some players picked Heca in tourney and there are talks of him getting nerfed.
Thoughts? Maybe you have more info on topic?
Also, stepping aside from nerf speculations. We can agree that to counter Hecarim enemy jungler needs to counter-jungle. An obvious solution is wards, so the question is where do you guys place wards to protect you, while jungling? (ofc if it happens before you snowball to oblivion and destroy any soul, that steps into your territory)
You can pull off that level 3/ level 2 gank top for an easy fb just like anyone else and just showing up in mid sometimes is enough even to blow a flash. Just because you aren't coming hard doesn't mean that you aren't a mother fucking horse of death riding tword them. People enjoy the attention of a jungler even if its not a full gank.
I don't really know what the counter to hecarim is. If they go for the lizard fist build they're pretty weak defence wise so you can wreck them in teamfights but then they can heal up so idk. you don't want to not focus them because they can just dive your adc willy nilly and murder their face in.
my counter pick would be jungle nasus but I don't know.
SV was getting CRUSHED with a lizard-rush build every time a teamfight broke out. Curse was still barely pulling through the teamfights, mostly due to positioning of the rest of the team. It wasn't until he also got IBG AND a giant's belt that he wasn't simply melting, and could get in there to sit on the carry's face.
I'd go with a stronger counterjungler / early duelist like Lee or Xin to deal with Hecarim. Both have the advantage that they can kick the horse off their carry, too.
i just played hec (go figure, he's my main these days) and the enemy team had a singed that was raping our shit, so I went for glade of the ruined king. I really liked it, it made me more bursty and the active gave me move speed which stacked with my passive pretty well. I would build botrk again, but only situationally
On February 15 2013 23:42 sylverfyre wrote: SV was getting CRUSHED with a lizard-rush build every time a teamfight broke out. Curse was still barely pulling through the teamfights, mostly due to positioning of the rest of the team. It wasn't until he also got IBG AND a giant's belt that he wasn't simply melting, and could get in there to sit on the carry's face.
I'd go with a stronger counterjungler / early duelist like Lee or Xin to deal with Hecarim. Both have the advantage that they can kick the horse off their carry, too.
Pony was my first RP buy on release so he holds a special place in my heart, pretty happy he's finally getting the attention he deserves except "oh it's xj9 main" (not that I dislike xj9 but he has a pretty bad image in this community)
I don't like Lizard rush or worse, going IBG + Lizard before getting any tanky item. Get tanky on the pony, he has a really smooth and flexible build path: common items wanted on that beast are, as said multiple times, sheen, glacial shroud, kindlegems and their upgrades, then later on Lizard/Randuins/sunfire with headless pony for style, depending on the state of each teams gold.
Build him using those components and finish whatever is more important. W is op but not until it's level'd up and you get some meat on those big bones.
In terms of counter jungling, pony is weak early but not really gankable either because of his escapes. However hecarim really doesn't like falling behind. Counter ganking after he used e is always a good idea, lanes should also learn to ward farther up the river and actually be smart because of his fast movement speed.
Ok so im playing a shit ton of hecarim lately and i was like why not give the guys on tl some good hecarim advice, hell yea. I play heca as a carry jungler, try to get as many kills as fast as possible so you can get your core asap. Don't be afraid to push a lane when the enemy is buying/dead (make sure to push to the tower tho, otherwise their jungler can easily gank your overextended ally), or take your mid's blue (heca loves blue so much.) I run 9-21-0 masteries, i've tried 0-9-21 and 9-0-21 but i really don't like these pages, you are squishier and the masteries in utility (except for the 3% MS) aren't that good for him. Just take 9-21-0 with 1 point in the improved ghost and 3 in attack speed, and the armor pen mastery. For summoners i take ghost/smite, you could swap out ghost for flash but i don't think you need flash as heca, ghost gives you sticking power (which heca lacks before IBG) and more AD through your passive. I am not saying you have to take ghost, i just prefer it, pick what you like. My runes are: ArPen reds, armor yellows, mr/lvl blues and MS quints. The yellows, blues and quints are standard (for heca at least) but you could swap out the reds for AD, AtkSpd or a mix of those (something like 3 AtkSpd and 6 ArPen works well.) The arpen helps you to damage squishies and lets heca do damage throughout mid- and lategame, also helps him with the big camps (red, blue, golems.) The usual route when i get smiteless and want to gank fast is: wolves, blue, red then gank (preferably top or mid.) If i don't want to gank soon and/or need to use smite, my route is: wolves, blue (smiteless or not,) wraiths, red, golems, wraiths. This puts you at level 4 and wastes as little of your red buff time as possible, and you can farm more or gank after this. With ganks pre-6 try to coordinate with your laners, it is usually better to let them engage the fight because heca needs to move behind the target (because of E) to pull a good gank off, and this is hard without the enemy overextending a bit. If you know there are wards try to waste as little time as possible, use ghost and E and run behind the target to start hitting him with your big ass head-chopping-thing. Ganking while there are wards is always a possibility with heca because if your insane movement speed, they won't be able to react as fast as they would be able to react to other junglers. When you have ult things become a lot easier, as you can pop E, ult behind your target and knock him back even further with E. However, it is still preferred to let your laners engage so you can ult after the enemy when they flash away/use some sort of escaping move. In teamfights you have to do 2 things right: 1. When to engage, and 2. When to pop W. W is essential in teamfights as you heal a TON of damage through it, try to use it when your AP mid and/or top laner use their burst so you can profit from the heal the most. Just spam Q like a friggin evelynn and try to knock back squishies into your team with E (or tanks away from your team.) Proc your IBG as much as possible and try to orbwalk between auto attacks, good orb walking helps soooooo much, it lets you stick to an enemy for a whole teamfight if you do it right and maxes out your damage. Hecarim is also a great peeler, if you have to rely on your AD for damage just stand next to him and protect him like a badass-pony-bodyguard, try to proc as much IBG slows as possible so your ad can laugh at those bruisers while they melt because they cant do shit about you or the AD. Use E for knocking away bruisers then after you cleaned them up use your ult and start to chase the enemy squishies (if they didn't get killed already), heca is insane at cleaning up enemies because of his E speed combined with IBG slows. For items, i start machete+ 5 pots, i try to back when i got at least 750 gold so i can get my spirit stone+boots1, then after that if you are ahead (you should be) finish your spirit of the lizard elder ASAP, at this point you will be a monster and deal tons of damage. After this if you are really fed, get your sheen and turn it into IBG, it helps you to stick to people and improves your wave clearing. If you are not that fed or even, build glacial first into HP items, like giants belt/kindlegem. Try to finish your IBG after that, then finish the item you were building (mogs, randuins or SV.) If you are behind, build resistances and as hecarim already deals a lot of damage only with a spirit of the lizard elder and max rank Q and W. Something like Glacial, giants belt into warmogs and SV/chain vest. My final build usually looks like this: Mercury Treads Spirit of the lizard elder IBG Warmogs Spirit Visage Randuins Omen
Other items you could get: Locket of the iron solari: Very good item, gives a lot of stats for a small price, and on top of that a scaling shield for your whole team. This item is very good, but it's only problem (for me) is that it doesn't scale that well into lategame, where hecarim shines the most. Also, the 10% CDR is useless when you already have 40% from Spirit of the lizard elder, IBG and SV. tldr: Good item but not cost effective lategame.
Sunfire cape: Meh, mediocre item for hecarim, the magic damage aura it gives is useless for hecarim as he already deals a lot of damage and he doesn't need the waveclear from it as he already has a lot of AoE damage. The stats it gives are not good, you are only paying for the aura. I would maybe build this if i was reallllly fed, but my advice is to just not build it.\
Aegis/Bulwark: Both very good items, i like them a lot and i feel they have a place in Hecarim's buils sometimes. The problem is you don't WANT to build this mid game, because you absolutely need your core items to start owning the enemy team, but Aegis and Bulwark are most effective midgame when the aura it gives matters a lot. I sometimes build this as my 6th item when nobody else on my team has it or if i really need the extra magic resist the aura gives.
I carried myself to gold with hecarim and have 16 wins and 3 losses in ranked atm, heca is a really strong champion when played correctly and can own entire teams when fed. If i missed something let me know, appreciate advice a lot. I hope this mini-guide helped you a bit, and good luck with Hecarim!
On February 21 2013 02:29 Immortall wrote: Ok so im playing a shit ton of hecarim lately and i was like why not give the guys on tl some good hecarim advice, hell yea. I play heca as a carry jungler, try to get as many kills as fast as possible so you can get your core asap. Don't be afraid to take lane farm (make sure to push to the tower tho, otherwise you are fucking your laner up), or take your mid's blue (heca loves blue so much.)
most of what you said i agree with but i really hate the part where you mention not being afraid of taking the lane's farm. i feel as if that's only okay if you killed the lane and want the lane to push or if your lane went back. i'm not sure if you meant this or not but it's a pretty good way to fuck up their lane and to annoy them.
good move i like is to ghost run up to them to the point where i can ulti past them use E and then ulti and knock them back towards your team.
hecarim might be getting a pretty big late game nerf soon I've just started to love jungling with him but might have to switch back to lee sin or xin again..
Naw even after the nerf hes still going to be fun W is going to become his one point wonder and you'll be able to max e second for better ganks after q max.
On February 21 2013 02:29 Immortall wrote: Ok so im playing a shit ton of hecarim lately and i was like why not give the guys on tl some good hecarim advice, hell yea. I play heca as a carry jungler, try to get as many kills as fast as possible so you can get your core asap. Don't be afraid to take lane farm (make sure to push to the tower tho, otherwise you are fucking your laner up), or take your mid's blue (heca loves blue so much.)
most of what you said i agree with but i really hate the part where you mention not being afraid of taking the lane's farm. i feel as if that's only okay if you killed the lane and want the lane to push or if your lane went back. i'm not sure if you meant this or not but it's a pretty good way to fuck up their lane and to annoy them.
good move i like is to ghost run up to them to the point where i can ulti past them use E and then ulti and knock them back towards your team.
That is exactly what i meant to say, maybe i should have explained it a bit more detailed. I'll edit it.
On February 21 2013 13:02 Sermokala wrote: Naw even after the nerf hes still going to be fun W is going to become his one point wonder and you'll be able to max e second for better ganks after q max.
Apparently they are also nerfing W's cooldown (and damage), it now scales from 18 seconds on lvl 1 to 14 seconds on lvl 5 (old cooldown was also 14 s, but not scaling.) So no maxing E, unless you want to give up the sustain and over-time damage W gives. Source: http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/23247-unofficial-pbe-patch-notes-for-2-19-2013
On February 15 2013 23:42 sylverfyre wrote: SV was getting CRUSHED with a lizard-rush build every time a teamfight broke out. Curse was still barely pulling through the teamfights, mostly due to positioning of the rest of the team. It wasn't until he also got IBG AND a giant's belt that he wasn't simply melting, and could get in there to sit on the carry's face.
I'd go with a stronger counterjungler / early duelist like Lee or Xin to deal with Hecarim. Both have the advantage that they can kick the horse off their carry, too.
Pony was my first RP buy on release so he holds a special place in my heart, pretty happy he's finally getting the attention he deserves except "oh it's xj9 main" (not that I dislike xj9 but he has a pretty bad image in this community)
I don't like Lizard rush or worse, going IBG + Lizard before getting any tanky item. Get tanky on the pony, he has a really smooth and flexible build path: common items wanted on that beast are, as said multiple times, sheen, glacial shroud, kindlegems and their upgrades, then later on Lizard/Randuins/sunfire with headless pony for style, depending on the state of each teams gold.
Build him using those components and finish whatever is more important. W is op but not until it's level'd up and you get some meat on those big bones.
In terms of counter jungling, pony is weak early but not really gankable either because of his escapes. However hecarim really doesn't like falling behind. Counter ganking after he used e is always a good idea, lanes should also learn to ward farther up the river and actually be smart because of his fast movement speed.
Wat? People love XJ9ing their teammates here. You can even use his name as a verb!
So what are everyones thoughts after the patch? I personally find it a bit counter-intuitive that they increased the cool down of W at all levels, now I feel weaker in the early game with less sustain and come out of my first clear pretty low. Been thinking of starting Q again instead of W, but haven't had the time to test it out of late. Hecarim is still a very strong jungler, but I feel his early game is subpar.
Wat? People love XJ9ing their teammates here. You can even use his name as a verb!
Btw, this pony is a strong lil bugger.
"this community" I meant LoL community. I know people like xj9ing here :D
On March 05 2013 14:54 Baffels wrote: So what are everyones thoughts after the patch? I personally find it a bit counter-intuitive that they increased the cool down of W at all levels, now I feel weaker in the early game with less sustain and come out of my first clear pretty low. Been thinking of starting Q again instead of W, but haven't had the time to test it out of late. Hecarim is still a very strong jungler, but I feel his early game is subpar.
I don't feel different early game, as other said I now max E because I don't really care about getting a few sec CD on W. Starting Q you end up a little bit lower hp but have a faster clear if you get a decent leash. Not much of a difference between W start.
W in teamfight is still very strong even though you don't heal nearly as much, it was kinda dumb to get 1-2k life back anyway :D
I usually go back after first clear anyway to get spirit stone/boots or both if I clear a couple extra camp (need to be sure you don't get counterjungled as you're pretty low on hp at that point).
On March 13 2013 12:59 zulu_nation8 wrote: i think 21 utility is for pussies, gotta do the man 9/21. Bulwark/locket are usually better options than warmogs/sv now.
fock, why is Locket/Bulwark so efficient. I'm so bored of building those two items on like every jungler. hue
On March 13 2013 07:45 NeoIllusions wrote: 0 9 21 Machete => SS + Boots => Kindlegem => Elder Lizard From here build here, build resists and hp accordingly. Likewise with boots.
Final build is Elder Lizard, Boots, Visage, Warmog's, IBG + 6th item.
Really fun and big carries. ;;
I really don't understand the advantages to running 0-9-21 over 9-21-0. I get chunked so hard running the utility tree, especially after the W nerf its just ridiculous. So I guess I'm wondering how anyone could or would run 0-9-21 when tankiness is at such a premium on Hecarim, especially when trying to build Elder Lizard and an Ice Born Gauntlet.
I don't really feel like you get much more tankiness early by going that far deep into the defensive tree, the leveling is probably more important in that regard and the exp buff is really nice on a jungler. You just have to learn his limits, he's squishier than it seems like and you have to gank in spots where if they stop to focus you they die before they can kill you.
90% winrate hecarim. (40 games) I never, ever deviate from 21 support. It's just too good for hecarim. Even if you fall behind early, you still do great ganks, and can turn fights around so easily. Your ulti is basically malphites on a shorter cd, and can act as a great disengage tool aswell. Hecarim is op as fuck.
The CDR, the spellvamp/lifesteal, the exp, the runspeed. All of it is too good to pass up. I also don't feel like the 9 offense is worth much. You already do truckloads of damage if you manage to get Spirit+Frozen Fist.
Hecarim can be anywhere in a moment's notice, is a gamechanger and his lategame is epic. 21 defense doesn't benefit his strongest aspects as much as 21 utility does.
I run 0-21-9, maybe because I usually try and play Hecarim when the mid pick is something not too (or not at all) reliant on blue buff and I like my buff duration mastery. Sometimes I go for 9-12-9.
I never played 0-9-21 but I like the sound of it, I need to try it.
I'm pretty new to the game (so you'll have to excuse my noobiness)-- how the hell are you supposed to stop Hecarim?
He dives onto the entire team, tanks the entire team, people say "Don't focus Hecarim," and then he kills the entire team. If by chance we do manage to bring him down close to death, he just runs away. Ahhhhhhhh.
On March 18 2013 05:51 Karshe wrote: I'm pretty new to the game (so you'll have to excuse my noobiness)-- how the hell are you supposed to stop Hecarim?
He dives onto the entire team, tanks the entire team, people say "Don't focus Hecarim," and then he kills the entire team. If by chance we do manage to bring him down close to death, he just runs away. Ahhhhhhhh.
Ignite/Morellonomicon and focus him. Otherwise hard cc's, permanent slows, any form is cc is terror when you play Hecarim. Dealing with him requires good team effort, which is why he's such a pubstomper in soloqueue.
Deal with him like you deal with malphite, except he heals too. - Ward outwards, if you ward too close to lane he'll just ignore wards. Play clever, don't over extend. But really, CC stops Hecarim dead.
do people still ban hecarim at higher elos since his most recent nerf? i almost never see him banned anymore in bronze which makes me happy since he's my main and i usually carry with him
On August 02 2013 15:38 LeeDawg wrote: do people still ban hecarim at higher elos since his most recent nerf? i almost never see him banned anymore in bronze which makes me happy since he's my main and i usually carry with him
I rarely see him banned. (Plat/Dia).
I play him as my pseudo-main.
9-0-21, MS quints, AD red, armor yellow, mr blue (I run 0-9-21 if it's against a particular AD or AP heavy team.) machete pots start. first back -> boots + stone 2nd back -> sheen (I always frown at people that go rush lizard, such a waste of gold to get that early imo. sheen helps jungle clears better and dmg on ganks is equivalent)
next item(s) depends on their team. I only finish lizard early if we are ahead. Usually always SV, SunfireCape, Finishing boots(merc) in the order team needs.
I usually never finish IBG.
Side note: Biggest thing people do incorrectly on Hec is pop their W too early in engagements. If you're struggling just wait 3-5 seconds longer to use it. I cringe everytime I see a Hec use his ult to initiate and have his W activated as he is doing it. Biggest trash tier play you can do.
Currently running this on Hec(copied masteries from some diamond player guide cause i wasnt really sure)
Runes : ArPen Reds, Armor Yellows, 7CDR/2MR Blues, MS Quints 22-5-3, gives you 10% CDR from level 1, which is nice
Machete 5 pot -> usually grab a kindle gem then hit up SoTEL since applying that to an entire team with rampage is lol. Then the usual sunfire/spirit visage, that'll put you at 40% CDR, ill go IBG after that or triforce(i like the aoe slow from iceborne, even with the 10% extra cdr)
Ult up really fast with max cdr + hella healing from W
R>Q>W>E Thought about maybe trying E>W but not got around to it yet
On March 13 2013 07:45 NeoIllusions wrote: 0 9 21 Machete => SS + Boots => Kindlegem => Elder Lizard From here build here, build resists and hp accordingly. Likewise with boots.
Final build is Elder Lizard, Boots, Visage, Warmog's, IBG + 6th item.
Really fun and big carries. ;;
I really don't understand the advantages to running 0-9-21 over 9-21-0. I get chunked so hard running the utility tree, especially after the W nerf its just ridiculous. So I guess I'm wondering how anyone could or would run 0-9-21 when tankiness is at such a premium on Hecarim, especially when trying to build Elder Lizard and an Ice Born Gauntlet.
I just played this build. Legit as hell.
But what EDIT: RUNES should i run?
Armpen armor cdr ms
or armpen armor mr/l ms
dont really need AD since his scaling is so shitty, but his base damage is high so armpen is better imo
Don't see the logic behind it really. His only magic dmg are W and that will be on lvl1 for a while (you max Q first IIRC) and then Ultimate which is ok-ish but it's not worth slowing down your farm because all jungle creeps have 0 Mres anyway.
Any reports regarding the sustain of Hecarim in the jungle with the new Spirit Stone changes? Imo Hec has alright AD ratios, I haven't done the math so I am not at all sure whether AD or ArPen is faster in the early jungle.
On January 16 2014 18:20 Scip wrote: Don't see the logic behind it really. His only magic dmg are W and that will be on lvl1 for a while (you max Q first IIRC) and then Ultimate which is ok-ish but it's not worth slowing down your farm because all jungle creeps have 0 Mres anyway.
Any reports regarding the sustain of Hecarim in the jungle with the new Spirit Stone changes? Imo Hec has alright AD ratios, I haven't done the math so I am not at all sure whether AD or ArPen is faster in the early jungle.
I think Arpen for the extra damage is alot better than AD tbh. He has pretty shit ratios.
Still feel like Lizard Elder is needed on him though, going golem stone just didnt feel like i did any damage, even with sheen.
Arpen is the way to go since your main clearing tool is your Q, which has crap ratios.
My usual strategy with Hec is to gank mid once pre-6 to burn their flash, when they leave go steal their wraiths. Then when you hit 6, go back and REWQQQQQQQ for the kill. I like to be able to machete-> stone + longsword -> complete lizard elder/boots (usually Tabi) -> sunfire, then splitpush midgame until I get my Visage. After that you become an extremely strong tower buster.
On November 10 2014 06:24 ComaDose wrote: what about the viability of spirit stone, mallet, trinity with some boots in there.... feels so good
dont get mallet total waste.
If anything my old core on Hecarim was Lizard Eldar/Triforce/Sunfire/Spirit Visage
If youre snowballing really hard Triforce will make sure you melt pretty much any squishy, a fully charged E hit will almost kill most squishy characters outright tbh then you just spam Q and watch them die
Why get Sunfire instead of Randuins after Lizard Elder and Triforce? If you build that much damage the Sunfire AoE will be pretty negligable in comparison, much better to get the extra survivability from extra stats+attack speed slow on Randuins.
On November 11 2014 02:57 Scip wrote: Why get Sunfire instead of Randuins after Lizard Elder and Triforce? If you build that much damage the Sunfire AoE will be pretty negligable in comparison, much better to get the extra survivability from extra stats+attack speed slow on Randuins.
I guess that makes sense. Can always sell lizard elder later in the game but i kind of like max cdr on hecarim too, usually from lizard/visage/fh lategame. with triforce+randuins as your other two items.
EPT![[image loading]](http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws.com/images/news/April_2012/2012_04_05_hecarim_reveal/Hecarim_base_thumb.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://gyazo.com/c4455ee4f4f3b51fc61172e8214f222c.png?1360219588)
- Ward outwards, if you ward too close to lane he'll just ignore wards. Play clever, don't over extend. But really, CC stops Hecarim dead.
