|
"but his jungling leaves too much room for him to get too far behind if he fails ganks, "
"FAILS GANKS" e.g AFTER YOU GANK e.g AFTER YOUR CLEAR. I don't believe you once mentioned him being weak at level 3 when you get invaded at red until after you corrected me.
As for mid laners coming, depends on your mid lanes, some mids are naturally faster pushers and some can't push because they're weaker in lane at that moment, the general case is that your mid is going to be closer and you can chunk their jungler before he arrives and then gtfo. Anyway, that's off topic. It's basically what M5 did and you might need your bot lane to come as well unless bot is ALSO pushed. This is irrelevant if you're comparing to nautilus to maokai because maokais weaker than nautilus in this situation since in no universe does level 3 maokai beat level 3 shyv/lee/mundo. You basically have no argument that I can see.
And since when is "competitive play" = "theorycraft bullshit". If boots of mobility ganking is what you consider "actual playing" and that's sucessful everyday play then your everyday play isn't that relevant.
|
On April 14 2012 06:00 Slayer91 wrote:
"but his jungling leaves too much room for him to get too far behind if he fails ganks, "
"FAILS GANKS" e.g AFTER YOU GANK e.g AFTER YOUR CLEAR. I don't believe you once mentioned him being weak at level 3 when you get invaded at red until after you corrected me.
As for mid laners coming, depends on your mid lanes, some mids are naturally faster pushers and some can't push because they're weaker in lane at that moment, the general case is that your mid is going to be closer and you can chunk their jungler before he arrives and then gtfo. Anyway, that's off topic. It's basically what M5 did and you might need your bot lane to come as well unless bot is ALSO pushed. This is irrelevant if you're comparing to nautilus to maokai because maokais weaker than nautilus in this situation since in no universe does level 3 maokai beat level 3 shyv/lee/mundo. You basically have no argument that I can see.
And since when is "competitive play" = "theorycraft bullshit". If boots of mobility ganking is what you consider "actual playing" and that's sucessful everyday play then your everyday play isn't that relevant.
neither is yours, your a trash random from the eu server. Pce.
User was warned for this post
|
Sort've hesitant to dip my toe in here, but as I've been more or less alternating Maokai and Nautilus in most of my recent games - early-game/first-clear, I've never had a problem with Mao (even if I get the occasional sapling stack popped at wraiths), but with Nautilus enemy junglers seem to make a point of picking a fight, and I haven't consistently been able to rely on support from lanes. With the achingly long cooldown on his W at early levels (esp if you feel you need to take Q at L3 over a 2nd point in W re: ganks/escapes), he can take non-trivial amounts of time even on small camps early on, especially if you've lost your blue to an invasion. Admittedly, Maokai can have similar issues, but even Sapling Toss is under half the cooldown of Titan's Wrath at L1.
It doesn't take too long for him to get up to speed, but if you suffer significant setbacks early on, he recovers more slowly than many other junglers. On the other hand, I've found he snowballs fairly well compared to Mao.
Factoring into getting-caught woes is that I run Flash on Mao and Ghost on Naut, which isn't too helpful when a red-buff Shyvana or w/e with Exhaust is glued to you.
(btw Teut, thanks for the Chalice on Maokai tip; works wonders in place of the HoG and makes me less conflicted about grabbing FHeart)
|
Attacking Nautilus directly in the jungle can be a huge problem for him if he can't get the support of his allies. High damage junglers can break his shield before he has his tanky items, at which point Nautilus' early damage is essentially gone. His CC is not, however, so in situations where his team can come help him the enemy jungler typically dies. The window for this type of aggression tends to be fairly small unless Nautilus' team is losing mid and/or top by a large margin.
Otherwise, Nautilus doesn't particularly care about getting counter-jungled.
I'm not sure why anyone would suggest that Maokai is a strong duelist, because he isn't. You can argue he's better at it than Nautilus, but that's like being the taller midget in a pair.
|
i won a lan tourney where glaceau carried me every game so i trust everything he says
|
|
|
Wits with the fix to Naut's DoT is fucking overpowered and I'm abusing it 100% of the games every game.
|
On April 29 2012 13:43 Requizen wrote:
Wits with the fix to Naut's DoT is fucking overpowered and I'm abusing it 100% of the games every game.
Same, the guy is a beast.
|
Changed runes/masteries as well (I'd imagine AS would be the reds of choice, but not worth getting AS from offense as opposed to MS/buff duration in utility), or just building Wit's End after ... double GP/5 & Aegis?
|
On April 29 2012 18:11 Haasts wrote:
Changed runes/masteries as well (I'd imagine AS would be the reds of choice, but not worth getting AS from offense as opposed to MS/buff duration in utility), or just building Wit's End after ... double GP/5 & Aegis?
I run him 0-21-9 atm, with movespeed quints/aspd reds. Without those 3 movespeed boosts (3% from defense tree, 2% from utility, 4.5% from quints) he feels way way way way too slow.
About skilling and getting counterjungled; nautilus his dueling before his W has any levels is pretty abysmal, but his ganking utility is incredible from the moment you grab a level in hook. Unless your mid/top are pushing like mad from level 1 you should always be able to force summoners/heavy damage/a kill with your level 2 gank.
Giving your solo lanes a early advantage will allow them to help you way easier if you get invaded at your red buff for example.
For items I tend to go boots+3 -> philo on first b/hog on 2nd -> wits+mercs+chainvest (order decided by who gets fed/overall teamdmg composition) -> randuins+shurelyas -> supplement with w/e is needed.
When dueling enemy junglers/champions in general I used to feel superweak. But then I saw a nautilus I played against do something really smart. He tanked my burst with his normal health (shyvanas q & e) and only then activated his shield, allowing it to stay up for much longer and increasing nauti's dueling capacities a lot.
If you do have to gtfo the combination of your passive/e/dredgeline (with abusing dredgeline over the wall spots) makes it nigh impossible for single melee champions to chase you down.
|
What I find a bit "hard" in his itemization is the combination of general tankiness/team builds (aegis), cdr (shroud) and dps (wit's). If I'm fed, I'll generally go for Wit's with recurve first, off of boots1 + double gp5. If not, I'll generally rush shroud for cdr + mercs (at least the NMM). He needs the cdr badly and his dueling capabilities/burst in ganks are great once he gets AS (wit's) which allows him to snowball on lane ganks.
Thoughts about Zeke's? The AS and HP help him, on general tankiness and for his shield, he always likes cdr, and the lifesteal is part of the aura so it's not wasted. Have him take it rather than the support to allow something like double aegis or a locket/other aura item on the support?
|
Naut doesn't really need DPS, even just a wits is more than enough you melt squshies pretty fast and you only CC tanks anyway.
Hard to justify anything other than shureylas+frozen heart core slipping aegis and wits end there. Lol at soul shroud, zekes doesn't seem horrible but you're trying too hard to build damage on him.
|
What I meant with shroud was "glacial shroud", not soul, my bad.  Maybe I should shorten it to "glacial" instead to avoid confusion.
I like my early wit's because maxing W first, my dps is more or less fixated at that level, so it allows me to take advantage of it while almost everybody is still not too tanky, and the squishies really squishy (192+ magic dps from the second attack onward, discounting the passive + base AD). In that situation Zeke would be more of a luxury once the core is achieved.
It's probably not worth considering except in the longest games, as once he's got a "cheap" core (FH/shure/mercs/either aegis or wit's) Naut is pretty set and would be better off leaving the farm to the carries.
|
On April 29 2012 21:37 Alaric wrote:
What I find a bit "hard" in his itemization is the combination of general tankiness/team builds (aegis), cdr (shroud) and dps (wit's). If I'm fed, I'll generally go for Wit's with recurve first, off of boots1 + double gp5. If not, I'll generally rush shroud for cdr + mercs (at least the NMM). He needs the cdr badly and his dueling capabilities/burst in ganks are great once he gets AS (wit's) which allows him to snowball on lane ganks.
Thoughts about Zeke's? The AS and HP help him, on general tankiness and for his shield, he always likes cdr, and the lifesteal is part of the aura so it's not wasted. Have him take it rather than the support to allow something like double aegis or a locket/other aura item on the support?
I have tried with going wit's before merc threads but the speedboost & tenacity from mercs are a must have, especially when janna is on the opposing team (justfuckyoushittymovespeedpassive). If you get fed the odd kill early you gain a huge window where you have boots2 and most, if not all, of the opposition is still sitting on boots1.
When nautilus can outrun people he's at his scariest, allowing you to setup ganks easily even when the opponents have blinks/flash up by walking up to them and hooking after flash is used.
On April 30 2012 02:54 Requizen wrote:
I don't even get HoG anymore, I just build my Ruby into Cata, and if I get fed, I'll make a RoA. If not, leaving it at Catalyst helps jungle speed and what not anyway. Philo is enough for Gold, imo, and I'd rather have FH over Randuin's as my armor item 99% of the time. So I'll usually core with Boots/Philo/Cata(RoA maybe)/Wit's. If they have a super strong AD or just mostly AD, I'll just get Recurve at first, finish Glacial, and then Wit's after.
Naut is currently my best jungler, and no one really expects how much of a monster he is early/mid game. And then you just become unkillable.
I feel rod's damage boost is pretty insignificant if you don't plan to make more ap items (mainly some penetration, something you tend to lack completely due to rune/masteries/items). I really like running both frozen and randuins, and you only have 6 slots so you would have to sell catalyst before getting randuins (merc, shurelya, glacial, wit's, hog/catalyst, ward).
Ofcourse if you don't plan on making frozen+randuin (against double ap comps for example) cata instead of hog seems like a sensible choice. But in those cases making a banshees veil out of it seems like a better option.
|
I don't even get HoG anymore, I just build my Ruby into Cata, and if I get fed, I'll make a RoA. If not, leaving it at Catalyst helps jungle speed and what not anyway. Philo is enough for Gold, imo, and I'd rather have FH over Randuin's as my armor item 99% of the time. So I'll usually core with Boots/Philo/Cata(RoA maybe)/Wit's. If they have a super strong AD or just mostly AD, I'll just get Recurve at first, finish Glacial, and then Wit's after.
Naut is currently my best jungler, and no one really expects how much of a monster he is early/mid game. And then you just become unkillable.
|
Had an enemy Nautilus jungling in a ranked game where I was Maokai, and his team ended up rolling ours. Had a chat to him in the lobby post-match, as his build was slightly different from what I'm used to seeing - he ended up skipping Philo/HoG for a Glacial Shroud rush followed by Wit's End. He was running HP quints and ArPen reds and starting cloth/5pots; I've tried it out in a half dozen or so games (albeit with boots/3pots start and ASpeed reds; the one time I tried cloth/5pots I had a deluxe leash and didn't need to use any pots, heh), and it's not bad. Unlike Maokai &c, Nautilus' mana usage is fairly minimal - with a few points in W and some armor/CDR, it's all you need to swiftly clear camps (as well as maintain your HP), and having the armor/CDR earlier gives you a few more options with ganks re: tower dives.
Also, can't count how many Malzahar voidlings have randomly leashed/reset to Malzahar as he's running away from me with Dredge Line mid-flight and face-tanked it for their master, QQ.
|
As of the Darius patch release, I'm going to officially put it out that Naut is overpowered. Playing against bad nauts was an annoyance, but now that people are getting better with him, him having the most cc in the game is too powerful. Since I don't have him he's an autoban until he gets massive nerfs to make up for the fact that he has aoe to farm the jungle, and more cc than anything else in the game for ganking.
|
I second SnK-Arcbound's appraisal. It's not just quantity of CC, but quality. He has a root, a knockup/stun, a slow, and a displacement. That's more/better CC than Leona. On top of that his W is an insanely good clearing tool both for both small camps and buffs.
This is the community's three month reaction time at work again. My only regret is that I didn't abuse Nautilus more these past few months.
|
How do you alter your skill order depending on ganks?
I've tried the EQ for a level 2 gank, but jungling is so slow without a level 2 shield, I'm reluctant to take Q at level 3 (for WEWQ) if I can avoid it for that reason too. Do you camp or do you try to farm till 4 to be comfortable in the jungle and able to gank easily?
|
United States47024 Posts
Depends on lanes and how well they can follow up ganks. If you're going to QE gank at level 2, you have to get the kill because you need to hit 3 off of it to maintain your farming tempo. Blowing a Flash will help your laner but will still potentially damage your tempo too much for it to be worth it. So you have to be prepared to get the kill through summoners.
The thing with Nautilus is that while his early level ganks are strong, his ultimate augments his level 6 ganks just as much as many of the other strong level 6 ganking ultimates. So don't feel pressured that you HAVE to gank at 2. It really depends on the lanes--what the matchups look like and how well your laners can guarantee kills on your ganks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
