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Nautilus, the Titan of the Depths
For some reason this guy just got no love from the community, I never even saw him the week after he was released. I think he's awesome. He has more CC than pretty much anyone, and his ganks are monstrous. He also has great pushing and clearing power in the lategame. Basically a better version of Sejuani.
Abilities:
![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120214104130/leagueoflegends/images/c/c2/StaggeringBlow.jpg)
Passive - Staggering Blow: Nautilus' basic attacks deal an additional 2 + (6 × level) physical damage and immobilize his target for 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 seconds. This effect cannot trigger on the same target more than once every 12 seconds.
This is a boss passive, basically a free snare on anything you want, obviously try to use it on as many people as you can, but dont go out of your way in a teamfight just to tag everyone. Just use it when you need to slow someone down.
![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120214104205/leagueoflegends/images/5/5f/DredgeLine.jpg)
Q - Dredge Line: Nautilus hurls his anchor forward. If it hits an enemy unit, Nautilus drags himself and the target together dealing magic damage and stunning them briefly. If the anchor hits terrain, Nautilus will drag himself forward and the cooldown is reduced by 50%.
Halfway in between an Amumu toss and a Blitz pull, you meet in the middle if used on enemy units. This is a very low damage spell unless you build alot of AP (which you probably wont). So save it for its utility in combat. In the jungle or just moving around you should be using this ALOT just to pull yourself around the map faster. The cost is small and once you get philo you can spam it most of the time. When using this to gank, many times you DONT want to hit the enemy champion with your first line. If you can use the line to get yourself into melee range by pulling to terrain, you will get the 50% reduced cooldown which allows you another line to pull them back from under the tower etc. This spell looks super duper wide when you cast it, but actually its quite narrow. Dont try to catch people with the edges of the anchor, it wont work, you have to hit them pretty dead on. One point wonder, the cost goes up when you level it, so just dont.
![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120214104233/leagueoflegends/images/7/76/Titan%27sWrath.jpg)
W - Titan's Wrath: Nautilus surrounds himself with dark energies, shielding him from damage for up to 10 seconds. While the shield persists, Nautilus' basic attacks apply a damage over time effect to all units around his target, dealing damage over 2 seconds.
A shield that scales off of bonus health, genius. This shield gives you FAT aoe deeps, clear jungle camps in no time at all. Remember that this attack is damage over time, so you should be switching targets when you see the creep will die and doesnt need another attack. In a fight if you know you need more DPS and not survivability, it can be wise to not pop this shield until the first round of burst damage has happened, as you lose the damage if they burst through your shield.
![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120214104259/leagueoflegends/images/7/7c/Riptide.jpg)
E - Riptide:Nautilus slams the ground, causing the earth to explode around him in 3 waves. Each explosion deals magic damage to units in the area and slows them for 2 seconds. This slow diminishes over time.
A unit can be hit by more than one explosion, but they take 50% less damage from additional explosions.
Absurd AOE Slow. Not bad damage either for clearing jungle. Simple stuff. Not usually useful in chasing people down, as the cast time and waves + range make it too slow to catch them. Save it for after you pull to them.
![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120214104323/leagueoflegends/images/5/57/DepthCharge.jpg)
R - Depth Charge: Nautilus fires a shockwave that chases an enemy champion. This deals magic damage to enemies it passes through and knocks them into the air.
The shockwave explodes upon hitting its target dealing magic damage, launching them into the air and stunning them.
Not my favorite ultimate, but pretty good. This thing is SLOW, so make sure you dont use it from too far away or they will already be under tower etc when it hits. Obviously try to make it go through as many people as you can in teamfights. For ganks I like to use it at point blank range unless they are really extended.
BASIC PLAY:
Nautilus is a jungle. You could play him in lane, but his pull and CC would be mostly wasted and you push obscenely hard if you ever use a skill, his kit is meant for the jungle. His W resets Auto, so use it to get a free hit early game.
Basic Skill Combo for Creeps: Attack - Shield(W) - Attack - AOE(E) -attackattackattack.
Basic Skill Combo For Ganks: Shield (W) - Pull(Q) - Attack - optional ult- AOE(E) - atackkattackattack
Nautilus starts Wolves - Blue - Wraiths - Golems - Red - etc. He needs mana from Blue for his first clear. Start ganking whenever you can once you have Dredge Line. You can do without blue after the first clear, but it will slow you down a bit. You open with E instead of shield because level one shield will be broken almost instantly and wont help your DPS as much as E.
In teamfights you are the most disruptive thing ever invented. Protect your squishies. Use your passive to tag anyone going for them, then slow the crap out of everyone with your E. Ult through as many people as you can. Use your Q again to pull asshole Warwicks off of your ad carry. Slow everyone some more then use dredge line to catch stragglers and feed them to your sivir. Stand on top of Teemo so they cant click on him because you are too big. You are better at protecting your squishies than you are at killing theirs, so play accordingly.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OMWL1.png)
ITEMIZATION:
I build Nautilus very tanky. His skillset requires him to be in the thick of things, so you need high durability. Even with no AP you do decent damage, and your massive CC makes you impossible to ignore.
STARTS:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091016143921/leagueoflegends/images/4/46/Cloth_Armor.gif) 5 Nautilus's first clear isnt the strongest in the game, cloth 5 will get you through the jungle safely. I don't really like this start though, as you waste money on 5 potions and end up with a cloth armor that you cant build into anything until maybe Aegis. This is the start I prefer, the fast regrowth allows you to get that philo stone much faster, and you dont waste money on cloth and pots. You will NEED a good leash on blue and a very good leash if you do wolves before or you will not be able to do red. Make sure your teammates know this.
FIRST BACKS:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091014183616/leagueoflegends/images/c/cf/Philosopher%27s_Stone.gif) This is by far your #1 priority item to get, it will sustain your health and mana for unlimited jungling and its GP10. Core item. ![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091016144102/leagueoflegends/images/e/ec/Boots_of_Speed.gif) boots man, they make you fast ![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091014182716/leagueoflegends/images/c/c7/Heart_of_Gold.gif) This is a very efficient item, gives you health that your shield scales off of, and GP10 which is better the earlier you get it. Will be used in Randuins later if the game goes that far.
REAL ITEMS
+ Show Spoiler +As basically a tank, you will have to craft your itemization towards whatever damage threats you face. More magic damage, build MR, more AD, build armor. ![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091014184304/leagueoflegends/images/9/9b/Warmog%27s_Armor.gif) With your shield scaling off of bonus health, this is a good item. I buy it basically every time. If you are getting Warmogs, its best to get it fast, so you can get stacks. After (or before) Warmogs, there are a plethora of pretty much equally good tank items. Feel free to build whatever you feel is necessary to counter the opponent. ![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091014182555/leagueoflegends/images/2/2f/Force_of_Nature.gif) ![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091014170037/leagueoflegends/images/b/ba/Aegis_of_the_Legion.gif) ![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110404102712/leagueoflegends/images/e/e0/Randuin%27s_Omen.gif) ![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091014170803/leagueoflegends/images/f/f2/Banshee%27s_Veil.gif) If you find yourself super tanky and feel like you dont need any more survivbility, there are some good damage items. ![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091014170421/leagueoflegends/images/b/b8/Atma%27s_Impaler.gif) Hells yeah, with all your health this thing will make you a god. ![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091014170161/leagueoflegends/images/7/7f/Abyssal_Scepter.gif) Gives you nice MR, plus AP which will translate into more damage output. Nautilus ratios arent bad at all. The aura is just perfect as well, as you will be in the middle of the fight. ![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110105233940/leagueoflegends/images/3/3f/Rabadon%27s_Deathcap.gif) Yeah right, you will never get fed enough to be able to afford this.
DO NOT BUY
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110404105137/leagueoflegends/images/f/f5/Wriggle%27s_Lantern.gif) Completely unneccesary on Nautilus, you will clear super fast once you get a few levels of W and you dont need any help with sustain either
RUNES & MASTERIES
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sBKah.png)
Basic Defensive Jungle. I take as much damage reduction as I can as well as bladed armor to speed up the first few runs in the jungle. Mana from the utility tree allows you to spam more Dredge Line and E to speed up farm.
RUNES
+ Show Spoiler +Reds: I wouldnt go attack speed, because much of nautilus's clearing power comes from his DOT which only refreshes. Run at least enough ArPen to get 12 needed for jungle creeps.
Yellows: Armor
Blues: MR
Quints: Pretty much anything could work, AD will help clears speed, Movespeed is always good, AP also increases DPS, or even flat HP.
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Hm... I'd get the MS from utility and the CDR from defense, with regard to masteries. You need some CDR if you want to clear fast because after your first blue you won't have enough CDR to be able to pop W on each camp, which makes you slower. Plus, the more CDR, the more Q/E you throw around.
With his 300 base MS, I also like my MS quints (I use a generic page ArPen/armor/scaling MR/MS, maybe I'd get MPen reds if I had enough pages), along with initiator and the utility MS mastery, you have something like 330 at level 1, which is pretty respectable.
The problem with him I found is that once people get away from you you realistically only have Q to get them. E too slow (effective range from runaways very short) and no way you'll AA them for your passive. So you really need to minimize the occurrences where you would need to get back to them.
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Just tried him in the free week, seems very easy to jungle with. I did get lantern though, as I feel it make my jungle and counter jungling much faster. The armour it gives is also nice.
I will sell it once I have 6 slots filled to change it to some offensive items.
He is very tanky naturally, with a Radiun he will have enough CC to last for the rest of 2012. Just a great champion for jungle when skarner/lee sin are banned.
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Porting from my post in the GD thread.
Naut W DPS really wonky and the tooltip actually misrepresents it. It says that it's 150 magic damage over 2 seconds which implies that your AS doesn't matter at all. But that's not true.
How W really works is that it's a 2 tick DoT except that the tick 1 procs on your attack and the tick 2 procs 1 second later. If you attack again before the second tick hits it is canceled and the DoT starts over again at tick 1. So at AS > 1 you will always get tick 1 but never tick 2. At these speeds Naut W functions like Cho's vorpal spikes. Your AS does matter.
But what if your AS is under 1? Because you're not interrupting tick 2 each of your autos will *always* proc 2 ticks. Which means that if your AS is under 1 you've got yourself a free 150 magic damage steroid. If you could just bump yourself to 0.999 AS you could be doing 300 magic damage over 2 seconds instead of the measly 150 the tooltip implies (or the 200 you'd do with no items at all).
So AS reds actually wouldn't be that bad of an idea. Yango did the math and said that if you want to make a recurve item you can't have more than 6% from runes/masteries or you'll eventually go over 1.0. A recurve item like WE would give you more early game power but W's long CD and team fights late game might make it too difficult to keep shield up for it to be worth it.
Alternatively you can just take armor reds since they make W last longer in jungle.
Also Chu has done some AP Nautilus mid fairly successfully, he actually deals some good damage. I need to try it sometime.
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On February 29 2012 10:39 Alaric wrote:
Hm... I'd get the MS from utility and the CDR from defense, with regard to masteries. You need some CDR if you want to clear fast because after your first blue you won't have enough CDR to be able to pop W on each camp, which makes you slower. Plus, the more CDR, the more Q/E you throw around.
With his 300 base MS, I also like my MS quints (I use a generic page ArPen/armor/scaling MR/MS, maybe I'd get MPen reds if I had enough pages), along with initiator and the utility MS mastery, you have something like 330 at level 1, which is pretty respectable.
The problem with him I found is that once people get away from you you realistically only have Q to get them. E too slow (effective range from runaways very short) and no way you'll AA them for your passive. So you really need to minimize the occurrences where you would need to get back to them.
The CDR from Defense is so tiny until later levels it will have basically no effect, by the time it even hits 7% you will have a frozen heart which hits cap with blue. 3% CDR is not going to make any difference to your level 1-12 farming.
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on these kinds of champs I generally like to sub Armor reds for anything dmg related, and subsequently either stack armor in yellows, or take HP@18 cuz with the 5 points in the def tree it's like 300 bonus health from runes/masteries alone.
and movespeed quints are preferred as well because like on udyr that little bit of movespeed will make big differences when trying to proc that melee stun
good general guide though
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I'm not a fan of Warmogs on him. I feel like I get enough health from Shurelya/HoG/Aegis for the shield and resists to keep it up. If I want health, I'll get FMallet for huehueMoreCC. Maybe I'd consider Warmogs later, but stacking resists on him to too amazing, imo.
My usual build is Regrowth -> Philo/Mercs/HoG -> Aegis -> FH/Shurelya/Randuin/FoN -> Sell Aegis for whatever (GA or FMallet usually). I've got a stupid good winrate with him, just tank everything and make your carry invincible.
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additionally, I do like nautilus in lane. the argument that he pushes is irrelevant, as any decent player can make up for that kind of thing with proper wards. the reach on his Q is just insane so he's actually incredibly mobile, add to that the fact that he has perma-bear stance and he's essentially ungankable in mid and will just farm up a storm. I really like generic tanky AP builds on him for mid (singed cho mao) and maxing his E because it does SICK deeps if you have the AP (dunno the ratio though)
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On February 29 2012 12:24 mOnion wrote:
additionally, I do like nautilus in lane. the argument that he pushes is irrelevant, as any decent player can make up for that kind of thing with proper wards. the reach on his Q is just insane so he's actually incredibly mobile, add to that the fact that he has perma-bear stance and he's essentially ungankable in mid and will just farm up a storm. I really like generic tanky AP builds on him for mid (singed cho mao) and maxing his E because it does SICK deeps if you have the AP (dunno the ratio though)
I've played 4 games as lane (one mid), hes ...alright. He pushes like crazy and the E has a 1 AP ratio if all 3 waves hit which is a ton of teamfight DPS. As far as mobile melee AP though, I'd never actually play him mid or even top in ranked, and certainly never pick him over Fizz. His CD's are too long and he loses all offensive capability if you stand behind creeps. All someone has to do is wait until he uses a skill and then go trade with him, he just cant trade favorably.
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How do you deal with getting counterjungled? He seems a v.weak duelist w/slow clears; not the best combination versus a lot of popular junglers.
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He's slow starting, but fast as hell later on. Here's my take: if you get counter jungled early, roam and gank. Keep pressure on and get your HoG and Philo. Once you get any amount of tankiness, you can't really be counterjungled as you don't die and you can get a lane to kill anyone who shows up in your jungle. They won't escape thanks to your CC, so just get them killed.
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You should at least link to wiki so people can have precise numbers, and preferably copy everything to OP.
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The vast majority of my recent jungling has been on Nautilus, and I have some suggestions.
First, a full armor runepage is incredibly strong on him. It speeds up his jungling by extending the lifespan of his shield, and provides much more survivability. As a result you can start Boots + 3 potions and clear with almost full health even without a leash. Very often I don't even need more than one potion on my first clear, and can tank tons of damage during level 1 team fights without compromising my ability to jungle. You can even pull a Warwick and start Boots + Ward + Potion.
Here's a video of it in action. I start W since with full armor the damage is actually equal/greater than E, especially with a leash on blue. If I could go back and redo the video one thing I'd do differently would be to hit W 5-6 seconds before the wolves spawn since its duration is so long.
As a side note, W resets your auto-attack timer. While not a huge deal you can slightly increase your damage output by making use of this fact.
In terms of build, I don't like Warmog's. The health scaling on his shield is nice, but you and your team are better served by getting other items first. By the time Warmog's becomes a good option the game is almost over, and even then it's not necessarily the best choice.
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I atm think that apart from the AP build solo mid with Abyssal, a Wits End tank build is the best on him. Getting to as close as possible to 0.999% aspd and then getting as much bonus health as possible while also having enough resistances to let you survive = amazing damage and survivability.
I've only played with him a little, but I think that a build along the lines of Warmogs, Wits end, Sunfirecape, Randuins Omen, Banshee Veil or something would be close to optimal on him. Basically wits end + hp and resistances, depending on the opposing team.
The 192 magic dmg per hit that you deal with wits and you W up is insane, and to maximize that I think it might be worth it to get enough aspd runes to get 2% aspd(While getting 4% from the offensive masteries), with rest beinG magic penetration.
However CDR seems to also be great on him, so Frozen Heart might be worth consideration.
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I've played a couple of games with Naut in the Jangle. Love his ganks, especially post 6. I've been running Mobility boots on him, seems pretty legit - 480+ ms real terror - run straight into lane giving no shits. Might wish to replace them come late game with Tabi/Merc.
Imo, you need to stress to your team mates to pay the utmost attention early game - lest you get counterjangled hard.
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On March 01 2012 01:14 Haasts wrote:
How do you deal with getting counterjungled? He seems a v.weak duelist w/slow clears; not the best combination versus a lot of popular junglers.
I never worry about being counter jungled past first clear, he gets super fast and his CC and tankyness plus Dredge Line makes it so I can usually just hold them in the jungle until a lane comes and kills them with me or I can easily get out with a Dredge Line escape.
On March 01 2012 04:14 Seuss wrote:
As a side note, W resets your auto-attack timer. While not a huge deal you can slightly increase your damage output by making use of this fact.
I heard it only resets the animation but doesn't actually give you another attack. I would totally try a full armor page with him but I just don't have the runes or pages for it right now.
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Check this shit out, there are certain spots where you can use Dredge line to jump across walls.
Basically you can cross very thin wall if you are standing very close to them, I'm guessing because dredge starts a bit away from the center of your model. The first spot in this picture is the easiest and most useful in my opinon. I've used it several times in games now and its awesome.
![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/14c5l51.png)
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Tried as/armor/scaling mr/armor to start boots, since I don't have the pages to dedicate one to Seuss' setup. Couldn't do red (I die, but that was because a nasty LS ambushed me :[). I may try this again tho. I just don't like how you don't take any MS masteries nor runes.
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I thought those wallcrossing spots were cool so I went and found four more (Teamliquid Exclusive Protip). The Green spot is where you click when moving into position to dredge. As long as you click the spot your character will always get into the right position, so its pretty easy and you dont have to guess.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AuyFB.jpg)
This one is really easy, as long as you are in the brush up against the wall this will work.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bnOcD.jpg)
This one is harder, you need to click just where the dot is in theis picture, right in between the two lily pads and the torch. If you click here though you can get it 100% of the time. EDIT: I take this back, this spot I cannot make work consistently,all the other ones are 100% tho.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4Wrfu.jpg)
This one is also a bit sensitive but its easy to do because you just click barely up and to the left of the handy purple light and you will get it 100%.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Dqwhy.jpg)
This one is also sensitive but not that hard, just click right where I show in the little indent between the two rocks and you'll get it.
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On March 01 2012 06:27 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 01:14 Haasts wrote:
How do you deal with getting counterjungled? He seems a v.weak duelist w/slow clears; not the best combination versus a lot of popular junglers. I never worry about being counter jungled past first clear, he gets super fast and his CC and tankyness plus Dredge Line makes it so I can usually just hold them in the jungle until a lane comes and kills them with me or I can easily get out with a Dredge Line escape. Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 04:14 Seuss wrote:
As a side note, W resets your auto-attack timer. While not a huge deal you can slightly increase your damage output by making use of this fact.
I heard it only resets the animation but doesn't actually give you another attack. I would totally try a full armor page with him but I just don't have the runes or pages for it right now.
You definitely get another auto attack. You can see it in action in the video I linked if you observe carefully (the effect is most obvious at ~1:20 or ~1:43).
Also, I can't wait to try those spots you found, and I'm probably going to spend the better part of forever trying to find others myself.
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United States37500 Posts
Free Naut week so I've been trying him out. On paper, Naut doesn't seem ideal for either solo lane. He has no sustain for Top and melee+no sustain for Mid puts him in a lot of poor matchups. However, I've seen chu8 do very well with AP Naut.
That said, trying out Jungle Naut, I build utility the first few times (Regen+pot, Philo, Boots, HoG, Shurelya's, tanky...) and it went alright. But I felt like a weaker Maokai in a sense.
Last few games, I've done AP Naut and it seems ok.
9 21 0
AS Armor FlatMR MS
Smite/Ghost
Boots+pots, Catalyst, RoA, Merc/Tabi/Sorc, NLR, Zhonya's/Deathcap
WEWQWR, R > E > W > Q
The nice thing about AP Naut is that your E does respectable amount of damage mid/late game. For ganks, I typically initiate with Ghost+Auto if they are in lane. Walk up + Ulti if they're near the brush. Either way, it sets up for a rather easy Q follow up.
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On March 04 2012 05:56 NeoIllusions wrote:
Free Naut week so I've been trying him out. On paper, Naut doesn't seem ideal for either solo lane. He has no sustain for Top and melee+no sustain for Mid puts him in a lot of poor matchups. However, I've seen chu8 do very well with AP Naut.
That said, trying out Jungle Naut, I build utility the first few times (Regen+pot, Philo, Boots, HoG, Shurelya's, tanky...) and it went alright. But I felt like a weaker Maokai in a sense.
Last few games, I've done AP Naut and it seems ok.
9 21 0
AS Armor FlatMR MS
Smite/Ghost
Boots+pots, Catalyst, RoA, Merc/Tabi/Sorc, NLR, Zhonya's/Deathcap
WEWQWR, R > E > W > Q
The nice thing about AP Naut is that your E does respectable amount of damage mid/late game. For ganks, I typically initiate with Ghost+Auto if they are in lane. Walk up + Ulti if they're near the brush. Either way, it sets up for a rather easy Q follow up.
My friend and I tried him as a leona replacement in a panth + naut bot lane. We are pretty bad at executing the level 2 burst kill but it seemed really strong still.
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On March 04 2012 06:05 petered wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 05:56 NeoIllusions wrote:
Free Naut week so I've been trying him out. On paper, Naut doesn't seem ideal for either solo lane. He has no sustain for Top and melee+no sustain for Mid puts him in a lot of poor matchups. However, I've seen chu8 do very well with AP Naut.
That said, trying out Jungle Naut, I build utility the first few times (Regen+pot, Philo, Boots, HoG, Shurelya's, tanky...) and it went alright. But I felt like a weaker Maokai in a sense.
Last few games, I've done AP Naut and it seems ok.
9 21 0
AS Armor FlatMR MS
Smite/Ghost
Boots+pots, Catalyst, RoA, Merc/Tabi/Sorc, NLR, Zhonya's/Deathcap
WEWQWR, R > E > W > Q
The nice thing about AP Naut is that your E does respectable amount of damage mid/late game. For ganks, I typically initiate with Ghost+Auto if they are in lane. Walk up + Ulti if they're near the brush. Either way, it sets up for a rather easy Q follow up. My friend and I tried him as a leona replacement in a panth + naut bot lane. We are pretty bad at executing the level 2 burst kill but it seemed really strong still.
Yeah, I've been using Naut as Support bot.
/shrug
You have enough CC and tankiness that you can be a damn good tank, and in lane you like Blitzcrank.
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On March 04 2012 05:56 NeoIllusions wrote:
Free Naut week so I've been trying him out. On paper, Naut doesn't seem ideal for either solo lane. He has no sustain for Top and melee+no sustain for Mid puts him in a lot of poor matchups. However, I've seen chu8 do very well with AP Naut.
That said, trying out Jungle Naut, I build utility the first few times (Regen+pot, Philo, Boots, HoG, Shurelya's, tanky...) and it went alright. But I felt like a weaker Maokai in a sense.
I don't know. I max W first and I feel like I hit a lot harder than Maokai as long as I get a few auto-attacks in. How did you see Chu8 play him AP? I didn't catch it and I've been trying doran stack into Abyssal into whatever's needed. I don't like those guys advocating Rylai (all your spells already slow/stun, except maybe Q, and Rylai isn't proc'd by W, goddamn!) or WotA with max E.
Not even talking about warmogs or lichbane...
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Playing naut in jungle with Phys quints, as marks, armor seals and mr glpyhs. With 9/21 masteries. Going wriggles, phage, wits into mallet and then Aegis (if supp doesnt have) else just random tank items. You can be an insane pain to their carrys and peel for your carrys with just being big and a pain to everyone trying to attack them
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Wriggle's is a complete waste on Nautilus. He's tied for the third most atrocious base attack speed in the game (0.613, matched by Singed and beaten only by Annie and Morgana at 0.579) and has the worst scaling per level (0.98%). Moreover, his W gives him all the survivability and clear speed he needs, even on buff camps. Philo + HoG is much, much stronger on him.
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United States37500 Posts
On March 04 2012 07:30 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 05:56 NeoIllusions wrote:
Free Naut week so I've been trying him out. On paper, Naut doesn't seem ideal for either solo lane. He has no sustain for Top and melee+no sustain for Mid puts him in a lot of poor matchups. However, I've seen chu8 do very well with AP Naut.
That said, trying out Jungle Naut, I build utility the first few times (Regen+pot, Philo, Boots, HoG, Shurelya's, tanky...) and it went alright. But I felt like a weaker Maokai in a sense. I don't know. I max W first and I feel like I hit a lot harder than Maokai as long as I get a few auto-attacks in. How did you see Chu8 play him AP? I didn't catch it and I've been trying doran stack into Abyssal into whatever's needed. I don't like those guys advocating Rylai (all your spells already slow/stun, except maybe Q, and Rylai isn't proc'd by W, goddamn!) or WotA with max E. Not even talking about warmogs or lichbane...
You hit harder than Mao but that's not saying much. Both are tanky support and hard to reach the enemy backline with Naut's slow ass.
Chu8 goes mid Naut. 1-2 GP10 into RoA Deathcap. I skip the GP10 and go RoA Cap Zhonya's. Build him like a AP Bruiser like you would Swain.
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On March 04 2012 14:36 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 07:30 Alaric wrote:On March 04 2012 05:56 NeoIllusions wrote:
Free Naut week so I've been trying him out. On paper, Naut doesn't seem ideal for either solo lane. He has no sustain for Top and melee+no sustain for Mid puts him in a lot of poor matchups. However, I've seen chu8 do very well with AP Naut.
That said, trying out Jungle Naut, I build utility the first few times (Regen+pot, Philo, Boots, HoG, Shurelya's, tanky...) and it went alright. But I felt like a weaker Maokai in a sense. I don't know. I max W first and I feel like I hit a lot harder than Maokai as long as I get a few auto-attacks in. How did you see Chu8 play him AP? I didn't catch it and I've been trying doran stack into Abyssal into whatever's needed. I don't like those guys advocating Rylai (all your spells already slow/stun, except maybe Q, and Rylai isn't proc'd by W, goddamn!) or WotA with max E. Not even talking about warmogs or lichbane... You hit harder than Mao but that's not saying much. Both are tanky support and hard to reach the enemy backline with Naut's slow ass. Chu8 goes mid Naut. 1-2 GP10 into RoA Deathcap. I skip the GP10 and go RoA Cap Zhonya's. Build him like a AP Bruiser like you would Swain.
You shouldn't be going for their backline with Nautilus, all you have to do is stand in between your AD carry and their team and protect them. Nautilus isn't a assassin, but he has maybe the most CC in the entire game.
Of course this all depends on having a decent AD/AP.
Building him AP is just....bad, you turn him basically into a suicide bomb where he just goes in and ER and then gets wrecked, and he doesnt do nearly enough damage for that to be worth it.
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ap natulius does huge burst lol so sick
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United States37500 Posts
On March 04 2012 15:11 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 14:36 NeoIllusions wrote:On March 04 2012 07:30 Alaric wrote:On March 04 2012 05:56 NeoIllusions wrote:
Free Naut week so I've been trying him out. On paper, Naut doesn't seem ideal for either solo lane. He has no sustain for Top and melee+no sustain for Mid puts him in a lot of poor matchups. However, I've seen chu8 do very well with AP Naut.
That said, trying out Jungle Naut, I build utility the first few times (Regen+pot, Philo, Boots, HoG, Shurelya's, tanky...) and it went alright. But I felt like a weaker Maokai in a sense. I don't know. I max W first and I feel like I hit a lot harder than Maokai as long as I get a few auto-attacks in. How did you see Chu8 play him AP? I didn't catch it and I've been trying doran stack into Abyssal into whatever's needed. I don't like those guys advocating Rylai (all your spells already slow/stun, except maybe Q, and Rylai isn't proc'd by W, goddamn!) or WotA with max E. Not even talking about warmogs or lichbane... You hit harder than Mao but that's not saying much. Both are tanky support and hard to reach the enemy backline with Naut's slow ass. Chu8 goes mid Naut. 1-2 GP10 into RoA Deathcap. I skip the GP10 and go RoA Cap Zhonya's. Build him like a AP Bruiser like you would Swain. You shouldn't be going for their backline with Nautilus, all you have to do is stand in between your AD carry and their team and protect them. Nautilus isn't a assassin, but he has maybe the most CC in the entire game. Of course this all depends on having a decent AD/AP. Building him AP is just....bad, you turn him basically into a suicide bomb where he just goes in and ER and then gets wrecked, and he doesnt do nearly enough damage for that to be worth it.
RoA 450-630 HP for 3035
Shurelya's + HoG for 580 hp for 3025
It's a decent HP pool + level 3 W, he's not really a suicide bomb. Feels like he's doing more with AP than standing and tanking while doing minimal damage.
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On March 04 2012 06:32 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 06:05 petered wrote:On March 04 2012 05:56 NeoIllusions wrote:
Free Naut week so I've been trying him out. On paper, Naut doesn't seem ideal for either solo lane. He has no sustain for Top and melee+no sustain for Mid puts him in a lot of poor matchups. However, I've seen chu8 do very well with AP Naut.
That said, trying out Jungle Naut, I build utility the first few times (Regen+pot, Philo, Boots, HoG, Shurelya's, tanky...) and it went alright. But I felt like a weaker Maokai in a sense.
Last few games, I've done AP Naut and it seems ok.
9 21 0
AS Armor FlatMR MS
Smite/Ghost
Boots+pots, Catalyst, RoA, Merc/Tabi/Sorc, NLR, Zhonya's/Deathcap
WEWQWR, R > E > W > Q
The nice thing about AP Naut is that your E does respectable amount of damage mid/late game. For ganks, I typically initiate with Ghost+Auto if they are in lane. Walk up + Ulti if they're near the brush. Either way, it sets up for a rather easy Q follow up. My friend and I tried him as a leona replacement in a panth + naut bot lane. We are pretty bad at executing the level 2 burst kill but it seemed really strong still. Yeah, I've been using Naut as Support bot. /shrug You have enough CC and tankiness that you can be a damn good tank, and in lane you like Blitzcrank.
the one time i played him i played him as support too, idk if i should max w or e first i did w and pulled off some sick tower dives really early but someone else said you max e in lane for... more damage? also it was awesome because i felt like i didn't have mana problems or scaling problems ever plus it was really fun
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On March 05 2012 05:55 unichan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 06:32 iCanada wrote:On March 04 2012 06:05 petered wrote:On March 04 2012 05:56 NeoIllusions wrote:
Free Naut week so I've been trying him out. On paper, Naut doesn't seem ideal for either solo lane. He has no sustain for Top and melee+no sustain for Mid puts him in a lot of poor matchups. However, I've seen chu8 do very well with AP Naut.
That said, trying out Jungle Naut, I build utility the first few times (Regen+pot, Philo, Boots, HoG, Shurelya's, tanky...) and it went alright. But I felt like a weaker Maokai in a sense.
Last few games, I've done AP Naut and it seems ok.
9 21 0
AS Armor FlatMR MS
Smite/Ghost
Boots+pots, Catalyst, RoA, Merc/Tabi/Sorc, NLR, Zhonya's/Deathcap
WEWQWR, R > E > W > Q
The nice thing about AP Naut is that your E does respectable amount of damage mid/late game. For ganks, I typically initiate with Ghost+Auto if they are in lane. Walk up + Ulti if they're near the brush. Either way, it sets up for a rather easy Q follow up. My friend and I tried him as a leona replacement in a panth + naut bot lane. We are pretty bad at executing the level 2 burst kill but it seemed really strong still. Yeah, I've been using Naut as Support bot. /shrug You have enough CC and tankiness that you can be a damn good tank, and in lane you like Blitzcrank. the one time i played him i played him as support too, idk if i should max w or e first i did w and pulled off some sick tower dives really early but someone else said you max e in lane for... more damage? also it was awesome because i felt like i didn't have mana problems or scaling problems ever plus it was really fun
I maxed W, just went straight up damage sponge. Pretty aggro, like Leona. Good with like Cait/MF.
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Man, every time I play nautilus I just think he's better and better. I seriously want to see him played in a tournament. His teamfighting is just so exceptional, pulling in runners and initiating too.
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Agree with you sob3k.
Played him a lot this weekend since he was free. Jungle mostly. I find his initial run is a bit slow and dangerous, as you depend a lot on W being active.
I played him as tank with max CDR. The amount of CC you can lay on battles is incredible, protecting your carry or initiating like a boss.
Also, I think he has the best /joke and /dance of the game
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He seems like a viable disrupter akin to Cho Gath, so he will probably see some tournament play in the future. I don't think he's better than Cho because cho's scream spamming is way more disruptive, and you won't see people out of position enough to take advantage of nautilus' ability to catch people.
That said, as a jungler Nautilus' ganks are really strong which is a big plus. Dunno how good his laning is.
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I've been doing the philo/hog into roa+deathcap for a few games now, but as a jungler (his clearing speed is insane with blue buff, using qs to speed up the traveling)
I max w first because it's low mana for in jungle, and if you gank and can keep it up during the gank its pretty sick damage.
This way I can usually shoot for a 16-17 min roa (boots t1, philo, hog) which makes you pretty tanky and damagy for buff/dragon fights.
Really sadface that i bought fiona and not nautilus after playing him a bit :<
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I advocate roa triforce abyssal build. Real fun times to be had in dominion anyways. Havn't had a chance to try in SR.
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IMO if someone on the enemy team grabs Naut you can just grab Olaf. Ult through his cc, pop his shield with your e, then just do your job on the enemy while Naut sits there looking stupid.
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Why do people want to go triforce/lichbane on him? He usually cast his spells in combos to chain-cc the target or catch a max of people, and has long cooldowns. You won't be throwing dem procs.
I tried him double dring into abyssal, he's doing surprising damage, the problem is a single E will never one shot the wave and you'll eat free harass while you have to finish off the minions in melee range, so I max W, and even then there are good pushers or nukers that can pop your shield before you finishes off the minions.
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On March 06 2012 00:36 Alaric wrote:
Why do people want to go triforce/lichbane on him? He usually cast his spells in combos to chain-cc the target or catch a max of people, and has long cooldowns. You won't be throwing dem procs.
I tried him double dring into abyssal, he's doing surprising damage, the problem is a single E will never one shot the wave and you'll eat free harass while you have to finish off the minions in melee range, so I max W, and even then there are good pushers or nukers that can pop your shield before you finishes off the minions.
You only have to 1shot the archers with e, and use 1-2 auto attacks while w is up on melee creeps -> wave cleared.
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I've been playing around with Nautilus since he was released, and I've been having the most success / fun with a AP and HP centric build overall. If laning, I'd open dorans into whatever and aim for a Rylais quickly; if jungling, I'd open cloth5 into boots and aim for rylais quickly as well.
My question is this: Is Rylais worth it on Nautilus assuming that AP and HP are the general build goals, or is it actually completely useless?
My question comes from the fact that only Nautilus' Q, E, and R apply the slow from Rylais (which lasts for 1.5 seconds). R stuns the target for 1 / 1.5 / 2 seconds, meaning that at lv1 rylais is only appled for 0.5s and after that it doesn't do anything at all. E is AoE so it's only a 15% slow stacked multiplicatively with the natural slow of E, which I suspect is a negligible increase. I can't seem to find how long Q stuns for, but it would seem to knock at least 0.5s off of the slow from Rylais.
Would anyone recommend replacing Rylais in my build with, say, RoA or Abyssal early on?
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get RoA instead. Statwise, the upgrade to rylai's isn't giving you a lot, so if the slow has a negligible impact on your kit, it's not worth it at all.
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United States37500 Posts
Rylai's is very redundant on a champion like Naut. Your primary skill (E) already has a bit in slow. R is a knockup and Q displaces the enemy. RoA is better in all circumstances.
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Simple enough, thank you for the quick answers.
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Wit's end without any AS (runes/masteries) puts you at 0.96 AS. Doesn't allow for the "< 1 AS" if you go with AS reds. Damn effective nonetheless.
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Playing a lot of Naut here's my thoughts:
masteries: 9/12/9 or 9/21/0
runes: quints could be mpen, AP, or ms. I use ms due to lack of runepages and running faster is never bad.
reds i would only use atk speed or mpen. here's the thing about attack speed: it lets you apply more stacks of your W. I haven't tested it but i estimate you get an extra 1-2 attacks with the W stack on them before the shield runs out (for level 1-2 W)
items:
Philo is good, HoG as well but i don't consider it as mandatory as a Philo. Naut needs mana, and if you're giving the blue buff to your AP you need philo.
RoA: if i'm doing well i skip HoG and grab catalyst into this. it's awesome on naut. core, IMO
Frozen Heart: probably should be considered core, has everything you need. Glacial Shroud is fine until later game when teamfights are more prevalent.
Boots: honestly, you can make a case for almost any of the boots except swiftness and berserker's. treads or tabi are top 2 though, cdr boots 3rd but you need to plan you masteries/items if you get those to not exceed the cap
Wit's End: the attack speed lets you dish out some seriously high damage with your W. magic resist isn't bad, gotta figure out best way to fit it in the build though
Abyssal Scepter: the only other AP item besides Rod that i think is worth considering
Aegis: it's a great item that i always want to see on my team, problem is it's hard to fit it in on Naut and can delay your better tank items quite a bit. but if your support doesn't get it, Naut probably should since he has 2-3 other teammates that should be doing more damage than him and it's his job to protect them
Shurelya's: hit the cdr cap, awesome active, bonus health. 40% cdr is almost mandatory, i feel, and this is the best item to get you there (unless you want Morello's Tome or Nashor's Tooth? lol)
all others are situational, but always tanky (Banshee's, FoN, Randuins)
I do not buy: Rylai's (redundant) Sunfire Cape (too expensive for what you get), Mallet (redundant)
the hardest part is overcoming your garbage first few levels. it feels like Naut starts to pick up around 4-5, hits 6, then just starts rolling and is a beast throughout mid to late game.
also you guys probably noticed this but you can Q to turrets for ganking/escaping
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I disagree on the boots.
I find boots of mobility great on Nautilus, as the amount of CC he has is excellent for ganks.
Also it feels badass to go so fast with a big moffo
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the thing is hes so fat and clunky it doesnt matter how fast you're going it still feels like you're going at 200 movespeed
i know this not just me
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Is Naut a fast jungle? I've been playing vs him quite a bit lately as Lee Sin, but I'm not sure if I'd clear fast enough to counterjungle and take his red.
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He's slow on the first camps because his shield isn't strong enough for him to get its dps for the whole duration. If you can get a good leash on your blue (for example) to kill it fast enough, I guess you could jack his red, yes. Be aware that he may get to it faster than some other junglers, tho, because without help (and you don't get it more often than not in soloQ) he can't start wolves reliably, so he doesn't get back there after wraiths.
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He's fairly fast, so if you're trying to grab his red after you grab your blue you're probably going to run into him there. It's unlikely that Nautilus will beat a Lee Sin 1v1 that early unless you're low on health, but he'll live long enough that there's a huge risk of being collapsed upon by his team.
Note: This assumes Nautilus is using a full armor rune page. It's probably safe at this point to assume most Nautilus players are running something more mundane, and as a result they'll jungle slower and with less safety (e.g. Nautilus with a full armor rune page can do wolves before blue, but most other setups can't).
The moral of the story is a full armor rune page is OP.
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On March 15 2012 03:23 Seuss wrote:
He's fairly fast, so if you're trying to grab his red after you grab your blue you're probably going to run into him there. It's unlikely that Nautilus will beat a Lee Sin 1v1 that early unless you're low on health, but he'll live long enough that there's a huge risk of being collapsed upon by his team.
Note: This assumes Nautilus is using a full armor rune page. It's probably safe at this point to assume most Nautilus players are running something more mundane, and as a result they'll jungle slower and with less safety (e.g. Nautilus with a full armor rune page can do wolves before blue, but most other setups can't).
The moral of the story is a full armor rune page is OP.
Running attackspeed on naut speeds up your jungling quite a lot actually, getting a few extra hits off with shield early is pretty damn powerfull. It allows you to hit lvl 4/double buff with enough health to gank after opening restotrinky + health pot. This is with a leash on blue ofc. (and wolves-blue-wraith-wolves-red-wraith jungling)
About invading with ls vs naut, if you go wolves,blue -> his red he can see you doing it if he decides to walk up from wraith. If he hits you while you're doing red you're pretty dead (with you being in his jungle and all).
So it's doable but relies on him not checking red while you're doing it. One well placed & timed cv from your support tells you all you need to know though.
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On March 15 2012 03:59 Schwopzi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:23 Seuss wrote:
He's fairly fast, so if you're trying to grab his red after you grab your blue you're probably going to run into him there. It's unlikely that Nautilus will beat a Lee Sin 1v1 that early unless you're low on health, but he'll live long enough that there's a huge risk of being collapsed upon by his team.
Note: This assumes Nautilus is using a full armor rune page. It's probably safe at this point to assume most Nautilus players are running something more mundane, and as a result they'll jungle slower and with less safety (e.g. Nautilus with a full armor rune page can do wolves before blue, but most other setups can't).
The moral of the story is a full armor rune page is OP. Running attackspeed on naut speeds up your jungling quite a lot actually, getting a few extra hits off with shield early is pretty damn powerfull. It allows you to hit lvl 4/double buff with enough health to gank after opening restotrinky + health pot. This is with a leash on blue ofc. (and wolves-blue-wraith-wolves-red-wraith jungling) About invading with ls vs naut, if you go wolves,blue -> his red he can see you doing it if he decides to walk up from wraith. If he hits you while you're doing red you're pretty dead (with you being in his jungle and all). So it's doable but relies on him not checking red while you're doing it. One well placed & timed cv from your support tells you all you need to know though.
A full armor rune page allows you to hit level 4 with double buffs and full health starting boots + 3 potions (with 2 potions to spare if you got a leash). If you already have attack speed runes (but not the odd slot armor runes) then it makes sense to use them, but armor runes accomplish everything attack speed runes do and then some.
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I don't like AS reds that much, since it makes Wit's less interesting as it would make you go over 1 AS, reducing your dps with W.
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Still playing around with it but nautilus top feels extremely strong. If you can't kill him early then he just gets ridiculously tanky and hard to push out of lane. He has great gank support, doesn't have a lot of bad matchups, and scales very well with farm.
Anyone play him top much? Any advice?
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FYI I tested Nautilus on the PBE, and the change to Teemo's poison also affects Nautilus' W. You can safely go over 1.0 attack speed without actively reducing your damage.
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Wait, so are we looking at RoA from a jungle role nowadays? I know it's a sick good item on him, but I don't know about spending that money on it when you're already getting less than a laner. But, your ganks are strong enough... dunno.
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On April 09 2012 11:24 Seuss wrote:
FYI I tested Nautilus on the PBE, and the change to Teemo's poison also affects Nautilus' W. You can safely go over 1.0 attack speed without actively reducing your damage.
thank god
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I've found RoA to be workable from the jungle - Catalyst pull double duty for him w/the health portion increasing the strength of his W (esp w/full armor runes) as well as helping with his mana when you're donating blue.
Glad to hear about the PBE change - will offer a few less restrictions in runes/masteries/builds.
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I always thought he needed HoG and philo before he can move on to bigger items. But I guess if he can pull off a couple of good ganks rushing RoA is the best way to go.
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On April 12 2012 11:09 Strykemard wrote:
I always thought he needed HoG and philo before he can move on to bigger items. But I guess if he can pull off a couple of good ganks rushing RoA is the best way to go.
Philo first is still best, but putting the health crystal into Cata instead of HoG is fine, especially if you're doing well. I generally don't miss the Gp10, and my ganks become way more workable.
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After seeing TheOddOne and whoever was against Diamondprox earlier today get bossed around as jungle Nautilus by enemy Shyvanas on various streams, I don't feel as bad about my difficulties with that matchup (to the point where I won't pick Naut if the enemy still has their jungler open) - with Naut's dodgy Lvl1-4, Exhaust/Smite Shyvanas with red buff are brutal to run into in your jungle :/
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Are people starting regrowth+pot on Nautilus? I go 0/21/9, with attack speed reds, flat armor yellows, scaling MR blues, and move speed quints and I always need to back after doing small golems. I can do a full clear and wraiths a second time and get level 4 before going back if I start cloth+5 pots. But I hate buying the cloth and sitting on it since I don't get Wriggle's.
Obviously I finish Philo then get HoG into Aegis if not ahead, but if I get fed I usually get a RoA instead.
Also what do you guys think of AP quints?
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If you start wolves you need help, and then a really good pull on blue, otherwise you can't do red buff without dying (or too close to it to be worth trying).
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On April 13 2012 08:49 Ferrose wrote:
Are people starting regrowth+pot on Nautilus? I go 0/21/9, with attack speed reds, flat armor yellows, scaling MR blues, and move speed quints and I always need to back after doing small golems. I can do a full clear and wraiths a second time and get level 4 before going back if I start cloth+5 pots. But I hate buying the cloth and sitting on it since I don't get Wriggle's.
Obviously I finish Philo then get HoG into Aegis if not ahead, but if I get fed I usually get a RoA instead.
Also what do you guys think of AP quints?
If you read the thread there are people running full armor pages and apparently this allows him to totally crush jungle 1-4 with the armor on his shield. I run more traditional runes and you are going to have to communicate that you need a very strong leash to do red comfortably, but its still doable.
If you dont do wolves first it also helps because you get shield and E to do them, only slow you down a little bit. Dont start cloth5.
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TheOddOne actually said at some point that Nautilus would be the best jungler in the game if he didn't have to worry about counterjungling every time he went to gank. I can see where he's coming from; if you can land a hook early game that person is dead about seven times out of ten. He just does so much damage it's almost ridiculous. Anyone with a shield is REALLY strong late game once you have just a ton of resistances, and he has one of the most cc-intensive kits out there with a slow, a root for his passive, a disable/displace/gap closer for his Q, and one of the most annoying fuckers of an ult in the game.
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his teamfighting is impressive, but his jungling leaves too much room for him to get too far behind if he fails ganks, I think he is more well suited to top on a passive player with teleport where you just farm up and your jungler can focus on other lanes. even if you are half cs as your opponent(really bad) you'll probably be just as useful due to his kit. if you've been CSing evenly and your carries aren't absolute shit, hes OP
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Nautilus clears really well and ganks really well. I dunno why you worry about counterjungling because if it's a problem for nautilius maokai wouldn't even be viable. I guess he runs slowly so you just run all the udyr masteries and runes so you're still fast.
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Something about nautilus just doesn't sit right with me, technically it should be like Malphite except everything is better, but my gut feeling still likes malphite more.
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On April 14 2012 03:10 Slayer91 wrote:
Nautilus clears really well and ganks really well. I dunno why you worry about counterjungling because if it's a problem for nautilius maokai wouldn't even be viable. I guess he runs slowly so you just run all the udyr masteries and runes so you're still fast.
moakai clears fast and is an underrated fighter. single target snare, spammable knockup and his passive all make him tough to invade
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On April 14 2012 03:51 Glaceau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 03:10 Slayer91 wrote:
Nautilus clears really well and ganks really well. I dunno why you worry about counterjungling because if it's a problem for nautilius maokai wouldn't even be viable. I guess he runs slowly so you just run all the udyr masteries and runes so you're still fast. moakai clears fast and is an underrated fighter. single target snare, spammable knockup and his passive all make him tough to invade
Yeah, this - Mao has good single-target damage early-on with strong base damage and a reasonable cooldown on Q; his first jungle clear is blazingly fast assuming you get a sapling stack on something. Naut's sort of the opposite - beastly AOE deeps, but on long cooldowns, and his first clear can be a little fragile. I run full armor runes, get help on wolves, and can still get mucked about by a bad leash (so many mids/bots manage to kill a wolf or two/split XP despite retreat ping spam from me) or a particularly aggro invasion from an Shyvana/Lee running Exhaust.
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On April 14 2012 03:51 Glaceau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 03:10 Slayer91 wrote:
Nautilus clears really well and ganks really well. I dunno why you worry about counterjungling because if it's a problem for nautilius maokai wouldn't even be viable. I guess he runs slowly so you just run all the udyr masteries and runes so you're still fast. moakai clears fast and is an underrated fighter. single target snare, spammable knockup and his passive all make him tough to invade
Nautilus clears way faster than maokai and using less mana.
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On April 14 2012 05:26 Glaceau wrote:
proof?
Play a game as maokai and then play a game as nautilus? I usually go chalice on maokai because you can't sustain your clear speeds when you spam your abilities. Nautilius can clear as fast as maokai all the time.
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On April 14 2012 05:31 Slayer91 wrote:Play a game as maokai and then play a game as nautilus?
yea and maokai jungles way faster everytime on first clear. not sure what game you are playing
also chalice pretty troll since Q uses barely any mana and thats all you use to clear after first clear.
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His first clear is faster, sure, but clears without blue buff?
I'm not sure how you don't have any mana issues on maokai if you could post a replay of yourself playing maokai and getting decent cs without going back all the time I'd be much obliged.
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On April 14 2012 05:35 Slayer91 wrote:
His first clear is faster, sure, but clears without blue buff?
I'm not sure how you don't have any mana issues on maokai if you could post a replay of yourself playing maokai and getting decent cs without going back all the time I'd be much obliged.
yea and we are talking about counterjungling early in the game when nautilus is weak, dont comment if you dont even read the thread.
moakai has no problems on first clear counters, naut does.
also maokai is played the same way as jungle alistar pretty much, you get your philo/hog/boots of mobility then just constantly gank. there is little jungling after that.
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On April 14 2012 05:37 Glaceau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:35 Slayer91 wrote:
His first clear is faster, sure, but clears without blue buff?
I'm not sure how you don't have any mana issues on maokai if you could post a replay of yourself playing maokai and getting decent cs without going back all the time I'd be much obliged. yea and we are talking about counterjungling early in the game when nautilus is weak, dont comment if you dont even read the thread. moakai has no problems on first clear counters, naut does. also maokai is played the same way as jungle alistar pretty much, you get your philo/hog/boots of mobility then just constantly gank. there is little jungling after that.
Excuse me?
On April 13 2012 23:07 noggnoskill wrote:
TheOddOne actually said at some point that Nautilus would be the best jungler in the game if he didn't have to worry about counterjungling every time he went to gank. .
After ganking implies post first clear.
Playing maokai with constant ganking and boots of mobility? When you have seen that in competitive play. Spamming ganking isn't a strategy that works because it gets countered by wards and passive play and junglers who farm until they can invade you when they're way stronger.
Anyway first clear counter jungling is a matter of coordinating with your mid who should be closer. Nautilus still has 3 forms of CC around level 3 so it shouldn't be a huge problem. Not like maokai beats lee sin or mundo or shyv in jungle, and he doesn't have an escape. I'd say he's even weaker.
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On April 14 2012 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:37 Glaceau wrote:On April 14 2012 05:35 Slayer91 wrote:
His first clear is faster, sure, but clears without blue buff?
I'm not sure how you don't have any mana issues on maokai if you could post a replay of yourself playing maokai and getting decent cs without going back all the time I'd be much obliged. yea and we are talking about counterjungling early in the game when nautilus is weak, dont comment if you dont even read the thread. moakai has no problems on first clear counters, naut does. also maokai is played the same way as jungle alistar pretty much, you get your philo/hog/boots of mobility then just constantly gank. there is little jungling after that. Excuse me? Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 23:07 noggnoskill wrote:
TheOddOne actually said at some point that Nautilus would be the best jungler in the game if he didn't have to worry about counterjungling every time he went to gank. . After ganking implies post first clear. Playing maokai with constant ganking and boots of mobility? When you have seen that in competitive play. Spamming ganking isn't a strategy that works because it gets countered by wards and passive play and junglers who farm until they can invade you when they're way stronger. Anyway first clear counter jungling is a matter of coordinating with your mid who should be closer. Nautilus still has 3 forms of CC around level 3 so it shouldn't be a huge problem. Not like maokai beats lee sin or mundo or shyv in jungle, and he doesn't have an escape. I'd say he's even weaker.
does it look like I typed that? that's an entirely different person. you might be blind. My post in no way correlates with his.
No one here is looking to go pro and from my post I am clearly talking about actually playing, instead of simulating some theorycraft bullshit.
and finally, why cant the counterjungler coordinate too? Just get your mid to push lane so when he goes to invade their mid has to miss farm or help. hurp durp.
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You just have to run Nautilus in a comp with a strong jungle presence mid like cass/Ahri/LB/Brand/viktor. Place a few jungle wards and you should be good to go.
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"but his jungling leaves too much room for him to get too far behind if he fails ganks, "
"FAILS GANKS" e.g AFTER YOU GANK e.g AFTER YOUR CLEAR. I don't believe you once mentioned him being weak at level 3 when you get invaded at red until after you corrected me.
As for mid laners coming, depends on your mid lanes, some mids are naturally faster pushers and some can't push because they're weaker in lane at that moment, the general case is that your mid is going to be closer and you can chunk their jungler before he arrives and then gtfo. Anyway, that's off topic. It's basically what M5 did and you might need your bot lane to come as well unless bot is ALSO pushed. This is irrelevant if you're comparing to nautilus to maokai because maokais weaker than nautilus in this situation since in no universe does level 3 maokai beat level 3 shyv/lee/mundo. You basically have no argument that I can see.
And since when is "competitive play" = "theorycraft bullshit". If boots of mobility ganking is what you consider "actual playing" and that's sucessful everyday play then your everyday play isn't that relevant.
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On April 14 2012 06:00 Slayer91 wrote:
"but his jungling leaves too much room for him to get too far behind if he fails ganks, "
"FAILS GANKS" e.g AFTER YOU GANK e.g AFTER YOUR CLEAR. I don't believe you once mentioned him being weak at level 3 when you get invaded at red until after you corrected me.
As for mid laners coming, depends on your mid lanes, some mids are naturally faster pushers and some can't push because they're weaker in lane at that moment, the general case is that your mid is going to be closer and you can chunk their jungler before he arrives and then gtfo. Anyway, that's off topic. It's basically what M5 did and you might need your bot lane to come as well unless bot is ALSO pushed. This is irrelevant if you're comparing to nautilus to maokai because maokais weaker than nautilus in this situation since in no universe does level 3 maokai beat level 3 shyv/lee/mundo. You basically have no argument that I can see.
And since when is "competitive play" = "theorycraft bullshit". If boots of mobility ganking is what you consider "actual playing" and that's sucessful everyday play then your everyday play isn't that relevant.
neither is yours, your a trash random from the eu server. Pce.
User was warned for this post
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Sort've hesitant to dip my toe in here, but as I've been more or less alternating Maokai and Nautilus in most of my recent games - early-game/first-clear, I've never had a problem with Mao (even if I get the occasional sapling stack popped at wraiths), but with Nautilus enemy junglers seem to make a point of picking a fight, and I haven't consistently been able to rely on support from lanes. With the achingly long cooldown on his W at early levels (esp if you feel you need to take Q at L3 over a 2nd point in W re: ganks/escapes), he can take non-trivial amounts of time even on small camps early on, especially if you've lost your blue to an invasion. Admittedly, Maokai can have similar issues, but even Sapling Toss is under half the cooldown of Titan's Wrath at L1.
It doesn't take too long for him to get up to speed, but if you suffer significant setbacks early on, he recovers more slowly than many other junglers. On the other hand, I've found he snowballs fairly well compared to Mao.
Factoring into getting-caught woes is that I run Flash on Mao and Ghost on Naut, which isn't too helpful when a red-buff Shyvana or w/e with Exhaust is glued to you.
(btw Teut, thanks for the Chalice on Maokai tip; works wonders in place of the HoG and makes me less conflicted about grabbing FHeart)
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Attacking Nautilus directly in the jungle can be a huge problem for him if he can't get the support of his allies. High damage junglers can break his shield before he has his tanky items, at which point Nautilus' early damage is essentially gone. His CC is not, however, so in situations where his team can come help him the enemy jungler typically dies. The window for this type of aggression tends to be fairly small unless Nautilus' team is losing mid and/or top by a large margin.
Otherwise, Nautilus doesn't particularly care about getting counter-jungled.
I'm not sure why anyone would suggest that Maokai is a strong duelist, because he isn't. You can argue he's better at it than Nautilus, but that's like being the taller midget in a pair.
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i won a lan tourney where glaceau carried me every game so i trust everything he says
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Wits with the fix to Naut's DoT is fucking overpowered and I'm abusing it 100% of the games every game.
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On April 29 2012 13:43 Requizen wrote:
Wits with the fix to Naut's DoT is fucking overpowered and I'm abusing it 100% of the games every game.
Same, the guy is a beast.
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Changed runes/masteries as well (I'd imagine AS would be the reds of choice, but not worth getting AS from offense as opposed to MS/buff duration in utility), or just building Wit's End after ... double GP/5 & Aegis?
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On April 29 2012 18:11 Haasts wrote:
Changed runes/masteries as well (I'd imagine AS would be the reds of choice, but not worth getting AS from offense as opposed to MS/buff duration in utility), or just building Wit's End after ... double GP/5 & Aegis?
I run him 0-21-9 atm, with movespeed quints/aspd reds. Without those 3 movespeed boosts (3% from defense tree, 2% from utility, 4.5% from quints) he feels way way way way too slow.
About skilling and getting counterjungled; nautilus his dueling before his W has any levels is pretty abysmal, but his ganking utility is incredible from the moment you grab a level in hook. Unless your mid/top are pushing like mad from level 1 you should always be able to force summoners/heavy damage/a kill with your level 2 gank.
Giving your solo lanes a early advantage will allow them to help you way easier if you get invaded at your red buff for example.
For items I tend to go boots+3 -> philo on first b/hog on 2nd -> wits+mercs+chainvest (order decided by who gets fed/overall teamdmg composition) -> randuins+shurelyas -> supplement with w/e is needed.
When dueling enemy junglers/champions in general I used to feel superweak. But then I saw a nautilus I played against do something really smart. He tanked my burst with his normal health (shyvanas q & e) and only then activated his shield, allowing it to stay up for much longer and increasing nauti's dueling capacities a lot.
If you do have to gtfo the combination of your passive/e/dredgeline (with abusing dredgeline over the wall spots) makes it nigh impossible for single melee champions to chase you down.
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What I find a bit "hard" in his itemization is the combination of general tankiness/team builds (aegis), cdr (shroud) and dps (wit's). If I'm fed, I'll generally go for Wit's with recurve first, off of boots1 + double gp5. If not, I'll generally rush shroud for cdr + mercs (at least the NMM). He needs the cdr badly and his dueling capabilities/burst in ganks are great once he gets AS (wit's) which allows him to snowball on lane ganks.
Thoughts about Zeke's? The AS and HP help him, on general tankiness and for his shield, he always likes cdr, and the lifesteal is part of the aura so it's not wasted. Have him take it rather than the support to allow something like double aegis or a locket/other aura item on the support?
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Naut doesn't really need DPS, even just a wits is more than enough you melt squshies pretty fast and you only CC tanks anyway.
Hard to justify anything other than shureylas+frozen heart core slipping aegis and wits end there. Lol at soul shroud, zekes doesn't seem horrible but you're trying too hard to build damage on him.
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What I meant with shroud was "glacial shroud", not soul, my bad.  Maybe I should shorten it to "glacial" instead to avoid confusion.
I like my early wit's because maxing W first, my dps is more or less fixated at that level, so it allows me to take advantage of it while almost everybody is still not too tanky, and the squishies really squishy (192+ magic dps from the second attack onward, discounting the passive + base AD). In that situation Zeke would be more of a luxury once the core is achieved.
It's probably not worth considering except in the longest games, as once he's got a "cheap" core (FH/shure/mercs/either aegis or wit's) Naut is pretty set and would be better off leaving the farm to the carries.
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On April 29 2012 21:37 Alaric wrote:
What I find a bit "hard" in his itemization is the combination of general tankiness/team builds (aegis), cdr (shroud) and dps (wit's). If I'm fed, I'll generally go for Wit's with recurve first, off of boots1 + double gp5. If not, I'll generally rush shroud for cdr + mercs (at least the NMM). He needs the cdr badly and his dueling capabilities/burst in ganks are great once he gets AS (wit's) which allows him to snowball on lane ganks.
Thoughts about Zeke's? The AS and HP help him, on general tankiness and for his shield, he always likes cdr, and the lifesteal is part of the aura so it's not wasted. Have him take it rather than the support to allow something like double aegis or a locket/other aura item on the support?
I have tried with going wit's before merc threads but the speedboost & tenacity from mercs are a must have, especially when janna is on the opposing team (justfuckyoushittymovespeedpassive). If you get fed the odd kill early you gain a huge window where you have boots2 and most, if not all, of the opposition is still sitting on boots1.
When nautilus can outrun people he's at his scariest, allowing you to setup ganks easily even when the opponents have blinks/flash up by walking up to them and hooking after flash is used.
On April 30 2012 02:54 Requizen wrote:
I don't even get HoG anymore, I just build my Ruby into Cata, and if I get fed, I'll make a RoA. If not, leaving it at Catalyst helps jungle speed and what not anyway. Philo is enough for Gold, imo, and I'd rather have FH over Randuin's as my armor item 99% of the time. So I'll usually core with Boots/Philo/Cata(RoA maybe)/Wit's. If they have a super strong AD or just mostly AD, I'll just get Recurve at first, finish Glacial, and then Wit's after.
Naut is currently my best jungler, and no one really expects how much of a monster he is early/mid game. And then you just become unkillable.
I feel rod's damage boost is pretty insignificant if you don't plan to make more ap items (mainly some penetration, something you tend to lack completely due to rune/masteries/items). I really like running both frozen and randuins, and you only have 6 slots so you would have to sell catalyst before getting randuins (merc, shurelya, glacial, wit's, hog/catalyst, ward).
Ofcourse if you don't plan on making frozen+randuin (against double ap comps for example) cata instead of hog seems like a sensible choice. But in those cases making a banshees veil out of it seems like a better option.
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I don't even get HoG anymore, I just build my Ruby into Cata, and if I get fed, I'll make a RoA. If not, leaving it at Catalyst helps jungle speed and what not anyway. Philo is enough for Gold, imo, and I'd rather have FH over Randuin's as my armor item 99% of the time. So I'll usually core with Boots/Philo/Cata(RoA maybe)/Wit's. If they have a super strong AD or just mostly AD, I'll just get Recurve at first, finish Glacial, and then Wit's after.
Naut is currently my best jungler, and no one really expects how much of a monster he is early/mid game. And then you just become unkillable.
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Had an enemy Nautilus jungling in a ranked game where I was Maokai, and his team ended up rolling ours. Had a chat to him in the lobby post-match, as his build was slightly different from what I'm used to seeing - he ended up skipping Philo/HoG for a Glacial Shroud rush followed by Wit's End. He was running HP quints and ArPen reds and starting cloth/5pots; I've tried it out in a half dozen or so games (albeit with boots/3pots start and ASpeed reds; the one time I tried cloth/5pots I had a deluxe leash and didn't need to use any pots, heh), and it's not bad. Unlike Maokai &c, Nautilus' mana usage is fairly minimal - with a few points in W and some armor/CDR, it's all you need to swiftly clear camps (as well as maintain your HP), and having the armor/CDR earlier gives you a few more options with ganks re: tower dives.
Also, can't count how many Malzahar voidlings have randomly leashed/reset to Malzahar as he's running away from me with Dredge Line mid-flight and face-tanked it for their master, QQ.
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As of the Darius patch release, I'm going to officially put it out that Naut is overpowered. Playing against bad nauts was an annoyance, but now that people are getting better with him, him having the most cc in the game is too powerful. Since I don't have him he's an autoban until he gets massive nerfs to make up for the fact that he has aoe to farm the jungle, and more cc than anything else in the game for ganking.
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I second SnK-Arcbound's appraisal. It's not just quantity of CC, but quality. He has a root, a knockup/stun, a slow, and a displacement. That's more/better CC than Leona. On top of that his W is an insanely good clearing tool both for both small camps and buffs.
This is the community's three month reaction time at work again. My only regret is that I didn't abuse Nautilus more these past few months.
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How do you alter your skill order depending on ganks?
I've tried the EQ for a level 2 gank, but jungling is so slow without a level 2 shield, I'm reluctant to take Q at level 3 (for WEWQ) if I can avoid it for that reason too. Do you camp or do you try to farm till 4 to be comfortable in the jungle and able to gank easily?
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United States47024 Posts
Depends on lanes and how well they can follow up ganks. If you're going to QE gank at level 2, you have to get the kill because you need to hit 3 off of it to maintain your farming tempo. Blowing a Flash will help your laner but will still potentially damage your tempo too much for it to be worth it. So you have to be prepared to get the kill through summoners.
The thing with Nautilus is that while his early level ganks are strong, his ultimate augments his level 6 ganks just as much as many of the other strong level 6 ganking ultimates. So don't feel pressured that you HAVE to gank at 2. It really depends on the lanes--what the matchups look like and how well your laners can guarantee kills on your ganks.
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I find that Nautilus is a seriously horrible lvl 2 ganker. You risk way too much and I find that even if I do gank successfully for first blood, I end up wondering if it was even really worth it at all when I go back into the jungle with absolutely horrendous clearing speed.
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Don't bother level 2 ganking, gank at level 3. If you team wants a super fast gank they should be willing to put enough damage on blue/red such that you don't need to use Smite, allowing you to book it to your next buff, clear it immediately and hit level 3 from just that.
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I still don't like not having 2 levels of W asap, but I guess if I do it your way then I'll have done the red buff already, so hitting 4 from small camps wouldn't as much of a hassle.
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On July 06 2012 09:29 Alaric wrote:
I still don't like not having 2 levels of W asap, but I guess if I do it your way then I'll have done the red buff already, so hitting 4 from small camps wouldn't as much of a hassle.
yeah, seems like redbuff can pretend to be W in a pinch anyway.
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So I'm curious for all those support players...
I've been playing support Naut (building standard support builds) for the past half year and had favorable matchups vs almost every lane. It's very similar to Blitz lanes, cept that I always find myself winning because Naut does more damage. Anyways, curious if anyone else has tried this successfully.
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How's his jungling in s3? I haven't got around to try it yet, I was wondering if spirit stone's worth it, or if he can afford to focus on other items, like aegis, locket or the likes?
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I've had alot of success with him so far in season 3. Invading seems to have fallen out of favor and his clear speed is amazing later on (especially with spirit stone).
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I've been absolutely loving him. Deadly ganks, great lategame CC presence, and his one previous flaw (slow clear) has been thrown completely out the window. By level 5 (level 3 W) you nearly instaclear wraiths and wolves.
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On October 30 2012 04:56 Zdrastochye wrote:
So I'm curious for all those support players...
I've been playing support Naut (building standard support builds) for the past half year and had favorable matchups vs almost every lane. It's very similar to Blitz lanes, cept that I always find myself winning because Naut does more damage. Anyways, curious if anyone else has tried this successfully.
My brother plays a lot of Nautilus, so we occasionally end up duoing bot with him as a support. I'm always hesitant to engage, but he does anyways and suddenly we win the fight. The shield is so good for damage and survivability, as long as Naut has someone to cover him as he gets out.
We've had success with Naut/Twitch and Naut/Varus, since those are the two I play the most, but we've also had some success with dunklanes like Naut/Leona or Naut/Xin.
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I tried 0-9-21, AS/armor/MR/MS, starting biscuit+ward+flask+machete. I convert machete into spirit stone later on, but don't complete it.
I'm not too sure what to build... Locket's good, aegis of course, but I'm at a bit of a loss regarding MR: I feel like I don't have enough MR with just bulwark + runes (I often get mobos), and with the rarer slots (sighstone, spirit stone, flask, boots already take a lot before I start selling) I can't really sit on a negatron.
I also feel like CDR sources are reduced, with Shurelya's nerf (I don't even get it anyway, I buy a kindlegem that I'll turn into locket because double shield so good for baits), frozen heart isn't as good rushing, randuin's doesn't give anymore...
I can easily run myself kinda oom even with spiritstone and mp5 mastery because his spells are kinda expensive (140 to 180 per camp depending on E's level) so I was thinking about maybe getting a chalice into crucible if my support doesn't build it (or if we're doing a very protective comp), since Naut excels at peeling anyway that could compliment his kit. Crucible's actually pretty cheap, only 2200 gold, I thought a few hundreds more.
I feel a bit low on HP when I only have locket+aegis, it gets a little better once I upgrade my sightstone though.
So I'd aim at a final build something like...
- whatever boots, up to cdr if I need to (cdr boots better than mobos in teamfights anyway).
- aegis as a core, into bulwark, later FH/randuin's for the armor
- early locket if I can, just to abuse the shield during ganks/counteganks, and get the cdr+hp5
- chalice->crucible if the support doesn't buy it so I can protect even better and I have some MR
- abyssal as an offensive option if I get the chance, wit's end if I get reeeeeally fed early on
- shurelya if we need it and noone else builds it
So boots/locket/bulwark, then one of FH/randuin's for armor, one of abyssal/crucible for MR, and one of those I didn't get or a sighstone depending on the needs. Probably sighstone.
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He is free this week and I tried him a little bit more... his clearing speed problem seem to have gotten exacerbated. Should I just max W first?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I am pretty sure you were always supposed to max W first on him.
I am unsure about how large his mana problems are, either just straight up rush Locket or if mana problems get bad getting Flask first is hopefully enough.
Locket synergizes great with him, because you can protect your shield with that shield and profit, it's brilliant.
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On December 16 2012 10:13 Scip wrote:
I am pretty sure you were always supposed to max W first on him.
I am unsure about how large his mana problems are, either just straight up rush Locket or if mana problems get bad getting Flask first is hopefully enough.
Locket synergizes great with him, because you can protect your shield with that shield and profit, it's brilliant.
Was doing that against a fed Ahri when their Skarner liked to abuse this to ult me (since I was hanging at the front anyway).
Then suddenly I had around 600 HP worth of shield and they had burnt everything on me, so I'd just use that to blow my cooldowns and walk away, ready to get back in with my next rotation.
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On December 16 2012 09:28 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 04:56 Zdrastochye wrote:
So I'm curious for all those support players...
I've been playing support Naut (building standard support builds) for the past half year and had favorable matchups vs almost every lane. It's very similar to Blitz lanes, cept that I always find myself winning because Naut does more damage. Anyways, curious if anyone else has tried this successfully. My brother plays a lot of Nautilus, so we occasionally end up duoing bot with him as a support. I'm always hesitant to engage, but he does anyways and suddenly we win the fight. The shield is so good for damage and survivability, as long as Naut has someone to cover him as he gets out. We've had success with Naut/Twitch and Naut/Varus, since those are the two I play the most, but we've also had some success with dunklanes like Naut/Leona or Naut/Xin.
I played support naut in 4 games tonight, won 3 of them (the one we lost we had leaver). He's really good at taking hits and annoying the crap out of whoever is bottom lane. He also doesn't hurt much from not getting any cs as long as you rush a philo.
Btw, his /joke works amazingly well at making the enemy team initiate when they shouldn't, or to at least get one guy out of position (someone will pretty much always try to use an ability on you) to where you can hook him to his death!
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I eventually settled on mostly playing nautilus out of the jungle since my old favorite amumu became a constant ban.
atm i am running flat cdr quints and glyphs, attack speed marks, and armor yellows with 4-23-3 masteries, i build machete5->boots of mobility->philo stone->kindlegem->turn kindlegem into a locket->make the decision between shurelias, randuins, warmogs, aegis. the active on shurelias is really great with someone like nautilus but becoming super beefy is also pretty nice.
having all the up front cdr is super nice. nautilus lives and dies on his W, it's not just a big shield but also where he gets a ton of damage. before i sucked it up and bought the CDR glyphs i was actually pretty happy with using mana regen glyphs and skipping a philosopher's stone.
theres a few things i'm not so sure about. im not sure if my masteries could be better, if i could get away with skipping or subbing the philosopher's stone for something cheaper so i can get a faster locket, if and when i should get a sightstone. i also wonder about the value of a madreds on him since it is so cost efficient, would give him a little extra boost to his jungling that doesn't tax his mana. im still trying to figure all this stuff out but i think nautilus is quite undervalued by popular opinion! i'm surprised he doesn't have any fans on tl :p
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On February 02 2013 00:15 mockturtle wrote:
I eventually settled on mostly playing nautilus out of the jungle since my old favorite amumu became a constant ban.
atm i am running flat cdr quints and glyphs, attack speed marks, and armor yellows with 4-23-3 masteries, i build machete5->boots of mobility->philo stone->kindlegem->turn kindlegem into a locket->make the decision between shurelias, randuins, warmogs, aegis. the active on shurelias is really great with someone like nautilus but becoming super beefy is also pretty nice.
having all the up front cdr is super nice. nautilus lives and dies on his W, it's not just a big shield but also where he gets a ton of damage. before i sucked it up and bought the CDR glyphs i was actually pretty happy with using mana regen glyphs and skipping a philosopher's stone.
theres a few things i'm not so sure about. im not sure if my masteries could be better, if i could get away with skipping or subbing the philosopher's stone for something cheaper so i can get a faster locket, if and when i should get a sightstone. i also wonder about the value of a madreds on him since it is so cost efficient, would give him a little extra boost to his jungling that doesn't tax his mana. im still trying to figure all this stuff out but i think nautilus is quite undervalued by popular opinion! i'm surprised he doesn't have any fans on tl :p
Is there any reason you're not getting spirit stone instead of machete+philo? The upgrade is cheaper than philo and covers your health and mana regen. The extra damage on the jungle also mean you can save some mana clearing it.
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Madreds on nautilus? Dear god why, his AS is like a frozen snail with arthritis.
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On February 02 2013 00:15 mockturtle wrote:
...i'm surprised he doesn't have any fans on tl :p
Hey, I'm a huge fan of Nautilus! He's by far my favorite jungler, and one of my favorite-looking champion. I build him pure tank and really take pride in my peeling for the carries, as he does an extremely good job at that.
I'm a bit surprised you go for the CDR glyphs, any reason in particular? Easier jungling, or idk? I go for the MR or MR/lvl glyphs, and the rest of my runes are the same as you.
I always start machete+5pots, then rush boots of mobility and spirit stone. At this point, you can jungle non-stop, be in every lane at once, and uou can really easily set the pace of the game. I usually build him pure tank+cdr, but sometimes throw in an Abyssal Scepter and/or Rod of Ages if it's going too smoothly or if we need some magic dmg.
But yeah, I think the same as you; I don't understand why he isn't played more than he actually is, but I don't mind at all, it means that people aren't really used to react well vs him, and I can keep him for myself! ^^
On February 02 2013 01:31 sob3k wrote:
Madreds on nautilus? Dear god why, his AS is like a frozen snail with arthritis.
I never tried Madred's on Nautilus, it never seemed like an obvious choice, any thoughts on why it would be a good purchase?
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On February 02 2013 01:53 lurked wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:15 mockturtle wrote:
...i'm surprised he doesn't have any fans on tl :p Hey, I'm a huge fan of Nautilus! He's by far my favorite jungler, and one of my favorite-looking champion. I build him pure tank and really take pride in my peeling for the carries, as he does an extremely good job at that. I'm a bit surprised you go for the CDR glyphs, any reason in particular? Easier jungling, or idk? I go for the MR or MR/lvl glyphs, and the rest of my runes are the same as you. I always start machete+5pots, then rush boots of mobility and spirit stone. At this point, you can jungle non-stop, be in every lane at once, and uou can really easily set the pace of the game. I usually build him pure tank+cdr, but sometimes throw in an Abyssal Scepter and/or Rod of Ages if it's going too smoothly or if we need some magic dmg. But yeah, I think the same as you; I don't understand why he isn't played more than he actually is, but I don't mind at all, it means that people aren't really used to react well vs him, and I can keep him for myself! ^^ Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 01:31 sob3k wrote:
Madreds on nautilus? Dear god why, his AS is like a frozen snail with arthritis. I never tried Madred's on Nautilus, it never seemed like an obvious choice, any thoughts on why it would be a good purchase?
It wouldnt
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Moving this from GD as the original post had been somewhat, ah, drowned:
On February 03 2013 07:11 Alaric wrote:It's so hard to gank as Nautilus before level 4 and not gimp your clearing speed. Well, it already was previously, but the health increase on the big monsters makes him even more reliant on his shield (E gives some AoE in the worst case, but the damage's too low for a single target).  I feel that it makes him very awkward to pick when one of your lanes will need early pressure (something like a Kass, or laning against Renekton/Darius/Xin), and the knowledge that he's amongst the junglers who can't do a level 3 doublebuff route and gank afterwards is also gimping (probably not at my Elo as people won't know to abuse it, but it certainly hurts in organised play). Sadness.
I've found the opposite - last two ranked games I've ended up playing Naut on purple side, and both games thanks to my team I managed to go wolves/Smiteless blue/wraiths/red with Smite, grab Q, and gank top. Since the small minions die a lot more easily from W/E AOE, not having the second point in W doesn't slow you down as much as it used to, or at least you take slightly less incidental damage.
Need to muck around with grabbing CDR boots instead of Mobos and seeing if I can skip Glacial Shroud altogether with the armor gained from Locket/Aegis/Spirit of the Elder Golem.
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I go 0/21/9 attack speed red armor yellow scaling mr and ms quints rush 5 boots gank and golem then either aegis or fh then magic res or whtaever else i need. usually you ult carries and q them or just peel for your carry with your awesome auto attacks :D
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On February 04 2013 10:38 Haasts wrote:Moving this from GD as the original post had been somewhat, ah, drowned: Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 07:11 Alaric wrote:It's so hard to gank as Nautilus before level 4 and not gimp your clearing speed. Well, it already was previously, but the health increase on the big monsters makes him even more reliant on his shield (E gives some AoE in the worst case, but the damage's too low for a single target). I feel that it makes him very awkward to pick when one of your lanes will need early pressure (something like a Kass, or laning against Renekton/Darius/Xin), and the knowledge that he's amongst the junglers who can't do a level 3 doublebuff route and gank afterwards is also gimping (probably not at my Elo as people won't know to abuse it, but it certainly hurts in organised play). Sadness. I've found the opposite - last two ranked games I've ended up playing Naut on purple side, and both games thanks to my team I managed to go wolves/Smiteless blue/wraiths/red with Smite, grab Q, and gank top. Since the small minions die a lot more easily from W/E AOE, not having the second point in W doesn't slow you down as much as it used to, or at least you take slightly less incidental damage. Need to muck around with grabbing CDR boots instead of Mobos and seeing if I can skip Glacial Shroud altogether with the armor gained from Locket/Aegis/Spirit of the Elder Golem.
What I meant is that since the big creep has more HP, he is more susceptible to surviving your shield, hence raising (somewhat drastically, especially on golems) the time needed to get rid of the whole camp, despite the little ones dying a swing or two faster. And 100 HP is still a very weak amount compared to the big creep's damage. At least that was my experience.
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Madreds on nautilus? Dear god why, his AS is like a frozen snail with arthritis.
I never tried Madred's on Nautilus, it never seemed like an obvious choice, any thoughts on why it would be a good purchase?
The logic is: since at the moment I leave the machete to be the machete for the entire game (or until i sell it for a giants belt or something). Machete->Madreds is a 400g upgrade which, ignoring the passive, grants 450-500g worth of armor. Even though Naut's AS is slow, he likes armor, and his AS is not so slow that the proc is useless, just less valuable (let's call it half) than it might be on someone like lee sin or xin zhao.
Like I said I'm not sure whether or not I like it, but I don't understand why I never see it or why it is universally panned ("dear god why"). There are worst decisions you can make in the game than being force fed cheap armor as a tank, no? Especially if that cheap armor happens to make you just a tiny bit more capable of clearing dragon or stealing a buff on a champion who is not strong at either of those two things.
On February 04 2013 15:22 TomatoShark wrote:
I go 0/21/9 attack speed red armor yellow scaling mr and ms quints rush 5 boots gank and golem then either aegis or fh then magic res or whtaever else i need. usually you ult carries and q them or just peel for your carry with your awesome auto attacks :D
I don't understand the rationale on using MS quints for a champion on whom I am buying Boots5 on my first back (hopefully, at least with my first 1000g if I have to back early) since the Boots 5 already puts you on diminishing returns. In S2 I would like them, but because I was sitting on Boots 1 for longer.
I'm a bit surprised you go for the CDR glyphs, any reason in particular? Easier jungling, or idk? I go for the MR or MR/lvl glyphs, and the rest of my runes are the same as you.
Nautilus is all about his W. It's a huge boost to his defense and his offense. At Lvl5 and 40% cdr it can be cast every 10.8s and lasts for 10s (unless you take damage). CDR in and of itself isn't expensive, but it has an availability limitation since you need to complete items to get it and junglers are often quite poor. MR/lvl glyphs on a jungler are about as cost effective runes as you can get and I cant argue with that (especially a jungler with shield or lifesteal), but you can always stop what you are doing and buy a null mantle or negatron if you need MR, you can't do that with CDR (thats my logic at least). Maybe trying to get cdr from runes isn't the best way to go about this but it's what I'm doing atm.
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On February 06 2013 02:44 mockturtle wrote:
[There are worst decisions you can make in the game than being force fed cheap armor as a tank, no? Especially if that cheap armor happens to make you just a tiny bit more capable of clearing dragon or stealing a buff on a champion who is not strong at either of those two things.
There is no rule in the game that says you should get a madred if you have machete + cloth armor in your inventory, you can upgrade the cloth to something more meaningful on nautilus (like tabi/locket/aegis/warden's mail) and upgrade the machete to spirit stone.
Most of nautilus clearing power comes from his W, which damage is amplified by both machete or spirit stone but downgraded by getting madred. I don't understand why you would prefer to rely on your autoattacks rather than your spells when it comes to doing dragon or stealing a buff.
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On February 06 2013 04:48 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 02:44 mockturtle wrote:
[There are worst decisions you can make in the game than being force fed cheap armor as a tank, no? Especially if that cheap armor happens to make you just a tiny bit more capable of clearing dragon or stealing a buff on a champion who is not strong at either of those two things.
There is no rule in the game that says you should get a madred if you have machete + cloth armor in your inventory, you can upgrade the cloth to something more meaningful on nautilus (like tabi/locket/aegis/warden's mail) and upgrade the machete to spirit stone. Most of nautilus clearing power comes from his W, which damage is amplified by both machete or spirit stone but downgraded by getting madred. I don't understand why you would prefer to rely on your autoattacks rather than your spells when it comes to doing dragon or stealing a buff.
you're missing my point.
if you own a machete and a cloth armor, the upgrade cost to madreds gives you +10 armor at the cost you would normally pay for +5 armor (at the cost of cloth armor). i'm not saying you *have* to upgrade it to a madreds, but if you like armor, why would you say no to discounted armor?
the fact that the spirit stone has been cheapened by 100g may make this argument pointless because buying spirit stone is now a better idea. however, spirit stone grants a 20% dmg increase, machete offers 10%, and madreds offers a proc which evens out to +75 on auto attack dmg. a 10% increase of nautilus' W proc and passive and base aa damage at level 9 equates to +26.4 damage, at level 18 this is +34.8 damage. This is +52.8 and +69.6 damage for a spirit stone. the machete proc is effectively +75 to your auto attack damage. while this doesn't consider the splash of naut's W proc or his E, companion jungle minions are now too weak to worry about and spamming your mana/cooldowns on jungle minions is not necessarily the best idea -- if you are stealing a buff or doing dragon under duress you may want/need your Q or E to get away or fight. regardless, unless i'm doing the math wrong this means that one idea is not clearly better than the other even though it may seem that way since the item isn't "meant" for a jungler like nautilus. and i never said madreds was a must buy, i just said i wondered about it.
but anyway, they made spirit stone cheaper a couple days ago so maybe taking it instead (and instead of philo) is the better way to go about it. one nice thing about the philosopher's stone was that shurelias is also a nice item on nautilus, but for the price of having a machete+philo you can now have a spirit stone+cloth armor and be on your way to finishing a locket
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What should I max first exactly with Naut jungle? I played him once today in normal because I had to jungle and he was free. I went for WEWQWR then R > Q > W = E (purely on top of my head), but I got really lucky to be able to get to lvl 4 without anyone counterjungling me.....
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The skill order is good, 'cept past those levels it's more R>W>E>Q, the Q cd hurts really hard but you want your shield maxed at the earliest so you can clear faster (your clear is shit without it, especially with the big monsters having more HP now, E doesn't do enough), take more of a beating, and also because it's your damage tool: as long as it lasts, and you've got ~1 AS, it's around 150 dps in an AoE around your target, not that bad, especially during the midgame if you get to bash a squishy. The cdr for a second shield during a fight is pretty huge.
Actually I'm not sure if with the jungle changes you couldn't max Q before or alongside E, since it isn't as needed and even though it's always 2s longer than Amumu, who knows, maybe you'll get to Q a second time in ganks/fights that way.
And yeah, Naut is really slow and weak pre-3, and can't gank pre-4 because of that. Pretty awkward for a gank-oriented jungler...
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On February 08 2013 04:47 Alaric wrote:
The skill order is good, 'cept past those levels it's more R>W>E>Q, the Q cd hurts really hard but you want your shield maxed at the earliest so you can clear faster (your clear is shit without it, especially with the big monsters having more HP now, E doesn't do enough), take more of a beating, and also because it's your damage tool: as long as it lasts, and you've got ~1 AS, it's around 150 dps in an AoE around your target, not that bad, especially during the midgame if you get to bash a squishy. The cdr for a second shield during a fight is pretty huge.
Actually I'm not sure if with the jungle changes you couldn't max Q before or alongside E, since it isn't as needed and even though it's always 2s longer than Amumu, who knows, maybe you'll get to Q a second time in ganks/fights that way.
And yeah, Naut is really slow and weak pre-3, and can't gank pre-4 because of that. Pretty awkward for a gank-oriented jungler...
Well that game I had it easy mode because I was like 3-0 by the 10th minute, lol. I think I got a warmog by the 17th minute (and that is after sightstone and spirit stone). I had the game in the bag and it was not a good representation.
But you are right maxing Q was probably not the safest way to go.
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On February 08 2013 04:14 Sufficiency wrote:
What should I max first exactly with Naut jungle? I played him once today in normal because I had to jungle and he was free. I went for WEWQWR then R > Q > W = E (purely on top of my head), but I got really lucky to be able to get to lvl 4 without anyone counterjungling me.....
i always do r>w>e>q, with q at level 3 if i'm ganking then. i guess you could do something else, but it never occurred to me to consider it since w is so good
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with 5 speeds and ms quints and the movement mastery in utiltiy you move at 443 out of combat thus why you take ms quints on naut  . I mean what other quints are you going to take armor hp ap??
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Armour is pretty good for keeping his shield up actually. Teut and I ran some tests at one point (because Monte advocated armour/armour/MR/armour on Naut/Amumu to allow them to clear even without a leash at all, I kept it out of habit and Teut pointed out that with people giving leashes more consistently it would be worth trying), and iirc on a solo run an AS/armour/MR/armour page was faster that the AS/armour/MR/MS page, allowing you a faster and safer first clear, which is the main weakness of Naut I believe (useless, slow and vulnerable at early levels).
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On February 09 2013 06:23 Alaric wrote:
Armour is pretty good for keeping his shield up actually. Teut and I ran some tests at one point (because Monte advocated armour/armour/MR/armour on Naut/Amumu to allow them to clear even without a leash at all, I kept it out of habit and Teut pointed out that with people giving leashes more consistently it would be worth trying), and iirc on a solo run an AS/armour/MR/armour page was faster that the AS/armour/MR/MS page, allowing you a faster and safer first clear, which is the main weakness of Naut I believe (useless, slow and vulnerable at early levels).
Xypherous, his designer (and the main architect of the S3 item reworks) has said that his kit is designed to scale with armor and mr primarily as his tank stats, instead of health. The health ratio on his W is there to prevent it from becoming irrelevant lategame. He's also said hes considering looking at buffs to shields in general because they are weak now that health has become the primary tank stat (im paraphrasing, Ill find quotes if I need to).
Take that for what you may.
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Just a quick question:
Nautilus no longer loses W ticks when he's over 1.00 attack speed, correct? I think I can see a 2nd magic damage tick with different damage values when over 1.00 attack speed.
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It was changed, it'll always tick regardless of Naut's AS. Basically, you'll do half of the damage when you hit, and half later. The later part is a debuff whose duration is refreshed (but not reset) by hitting again.
If it doesn't work like this then it means Riot managed to break it again at some point.
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On February 25 2013 06:53 Sven Stryker wrote:
Just a quick question:
Nautilus no longer loses W ticks when he's over 1.00 attack speed, correct? I think I can see a 2nd magic damage tick with different damage values when over 1.00 attack speed.
I can confirm that he only can have one tick of damage on a target. Sometimes it appears that there's two separate ticks but I'm almost 100% sure it's just a bug with the font being a bit more delayed than usual. I couldn't recreate it happening for sake of thoroughness, but I've seen it before in one of my many support Nautilus games.
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What are people running for Nautilus support in terms of runes/masteries? I've been using armor reds/yellows/2quints, 1 gold quint, MRes blues, with 0/13/17, but I have no idea if that's any good or not.
Another question, what are people building after FotM/Sightstone/boots? Pretty much always a locket, or is Righteous Glory still an ok buy if the enemy team doesn't have too much magic damage?
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I think the added advantage of 4 points in defensive tree probably aren't worth being able to put 21 into utility. Getting stuff like the CDR + CDR on activatable items is pretty sweet.
I think a support after Talisman/Face + Sightstone + Boots is primarily interested in:
Zeke's Harbinger (if your ADC scales off crit)
Mikael's Crucible (if they have hard CC that you need to cleanse)
Locket of the Iron Solari / Banner of Command (if they have lots of magic damage)
Righteous Glory (if you have a run-at-them-comp and need engage)
Frozen Heart (if they have diving AA'ers)
Ardent Censer (if you are Sona/Janna/etc.)
If multiple conditions apply, I'd probably put it in roughly that priority order too. A lot depends on whether your top or jungler is getting any of these items.
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Swap armor yellows for hp yellows and the gold quint for an armor quint. MR blues are okay in general. You may mix in some scaling MR for certain matchups with little magic damage (e.g. Caitlyn Janna).
I'm not sure what reds are best on Naut. Armor seem fine though.
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On September 23 2015 02:59 InfSunday wrote:
What are people running for Nautilus support in terms of runes/masteries? I've been using armor reds/yellows/2quints, 1 gold quint, MRes blues, with 0/13/17, but I have no idea if that's any good or not.
Another question, what are people building after FotM/Sightstone/boots? Pretty much always a locket, or is Righteous Glory still an ok buy if the enemy team doesn't have too much magic damage?
I run
Armor Reds:
HP (or scaling armor) Yellows
Armor(or MR) Quints
Scaling MR Blues
I go 4/23/3
4 points of sorcery/3 points fleet of foot
2 Block/2 swiftness
1 Unyielding/3 Veteran's Scars
1 Tenacious/1 Juggernaut/3 Hardiness/3 Resistance
1 Reinforced Armor/ 1 Evasive (Swap out for 1 Enchanted Armor if low AoE)
3(4) Enchanted Armor/1 Oppression
1 Legendary Guardian
The amount of raw Armor/MR that Legendary Guardian(+3 Armor/MR per enemy close) and effective armor than Reinforced Armor gives(its worth 20-50 armor against lategame ADC's, potentially more), plus the fact that Oppression is basically always active are essential for playing him as a support.
Its easy to get CDR/HP as a support, and everything else in the support tree takes too long to be effective. With the flat armor page you walk into lane with between +31.25 armor [3 enchanted, one enemy in range) and +35.2 armor (4 enchanted, 2 enemies in range). And this scales well into the lategame, easily breaking the gold advantage from the puny amount of GP/10 the final points in the support tree provides.
Minus the final parts of the defensive tree you're at 26. Plus in a lategame teamfight the extra poitns will be providing around 18 extra armor even if you haven't bought any extra (which you should because armor items are very good on him)
Another decent option is 0/21/9 if you think you really need the pot value instead of the smidgen of CDR (drop to 2(3) points in enchanted armor)
Edit: With full points in Greed, Scavenger, and wealth it takes 12 minutes of perfect CS to make up for the the immediate team fight impact of just Legendary Guardian. (So not including the extra MR, the 2% damage reduction from enemies being slowed, the reduced AoE damage, and the 5-10% bonus bonus armor/mr)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.fantasydimensions.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Nautilus-Skins-640x300.jpg)
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