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On December 03 2013 07:46 SoulSever wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 07:02 Gahlo wrote:On October 04 2013 06:38 IamPryda wrote:
What are the standard runes on Leona right now?
More specifically quints and marks
Armor for marks, quints are GP10 or Health. No hybrid pen marks? Not sure if hp or hp regen are best for quints right now
That post is kinda old. I think it's going to turn to hybrid after the rune changes because there'll be no other option.
On December 03 2013 09:44 Slayer91 wrote:
hp is terrible for quints, options include hp regen, armour and gp10. (gp10 probably best)
marks: mpen/hybrid pen/armour probably best options
fast sunfire is good if you can get it, leonas sustained damgae is really low compared to her tankiness.
warmogs is the best if you are behind, and just need to get an engage off, its EHP with leonas W is the best you can get. GA works too but its unlikely you'll get focused down hard enough that it will matter. Normally randuins is the best all around tank item, FH isn't bad. Trinity/IBG might be good late game.
HP is amazing for quints. They're the highest EHP boost early game and scale incredibly with your W. Regen is decent but between FotM and 21def I doubt you need more regen. Armor is second rate to HP on supports. gp10 is fucking awful with increased income and vision changes.
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gp10 gives the same benefit as it always did. You just gain a increasing about of stats from it as the game goes on.
HP quints are bad because they are only worth 1/2 of a potion in lane. (18g) Even gp10 is better then. It's only worthwhile in a hard engage where you're completely full hp and being this full hp hasn't cost you anything. (nearly always you have to play agressive early so you don't just get bullied by an adc+ranged combo)
You reasoning on regen is dumb also. Unless you are full hp constantly, regen outscales hp after about 40 seconds in lane. If the lane is bad enough that you feel you need hp regen for it, you can expect this is always going to be preferable. (usually massively)
In any situation where you want that ~80 hp outside of lane outside of 10 minutes gp10 is already break even. (you have roughly the time between first back and 10 minutes at best that hp quints has any opportunity to be better.
It's amazing how people can think something like hp quints being good but runic shield being terrible for 1 mastery point when it's nearly the same boost as 2 hp quints until you take harass damage.
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gp10 runes really didn't do much of anything outside of getting your token support garbage earlier and then supplement your income so you could buy pink wards instead of greens. HP quint's are different than potions because potions are forced regen. If we start calculating the worth of HP by how many potions they are, then there's no reason to buy HP items. Leona's whole shtick is hard engage. She isn't like Taric where you can pop a stun off and then decide to not go in because the situation changed. Leona needs those combat stats. Regen is better than gp10 because it allows you to take some abuse and not go "oh well, time to go back now because I'm useless."
10 minutes of 3gp10 is 180 gold. 78HP is ~205.8 which takes ~11.4 minutes to get. HOWEVER, you can't just buy HP in that small a denomination. As Leona, the most important part of lane phase is the first 10 minutes. It decides if you have a presence or are outright useless.
Runic shield is garbage because of what you have to trade in order to get it. Are you going to give up a rank of tenacious? 15% CC reduction? In quints the options aren't as compelling. Shield health that you can't reactivate is WORSE than HP because you can't regen it back. It doesn't matter what it is until you take damage, because that's the point of health.
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On December 04 2013 00:32 Gahlo wrote:
gp10 runes really didn't do much of anything outside of getting your token support garbage earlier and then supplement your income so you could buy pink wards instead of greens. HP quint's are different than potions because potions are forced regen. If we start calculating the worth of HP by how many potions they are, then there's no reason to buy HP items. Leona's whole shtick is hard engage. She isn't like Taric where you can pop a stun off and then decide to not go in because the situation changed. Leona needs those combat stats. Regen is better than gp10 because it allows you to take some abuse and not go "oh well, time to go back now because I'm useless."
WHat? You spend the extra gold directly on items. It also helps to get just enoguh gold to get key "super gold" items like targons and sightstone which give retarded amounts of effective gp10.
Leona hard engages there's no real way to hard engage early on, nobody bursts hard enough, it tends to be a series of exchanges unless somebody makes a mistake and the commit ends up in 1 side winning. Otherwise you both back off and then regen is king. That's why early game nobody uses HP quints, because your base HP is normally enough of a buffer zone unless you intend to tower dive or something in a 2v1 lane. The buffer zone is enough that regen massively outperforms it.
You already have tons of regen from defensive masteries+base hp regen+your relic shield+relic shield procs+your first potion that normally I'd say it's fine to get gp10 quints, but regen is a good choice for a hard lane.
On December 04 2013 00:32 Gahlo wrote:
10 minutes of 3gp10 is 180 gold. 78HP is ~205.8 which takes ~11.4 minutes to get. HOWEVER, you can't just buy HP in that small a denomination. As Leona, the most important part of lane phase is the first 10 minutes. It decides if you have a presence or are outright useless.
Before the first back, as I said, it's unlikely that flat hp as any more value than 1/2 of a potion. AFTER the first back, there is a small window where maybe you're 6 and hard engages can happen before you get harassed much so there is a potential for HP quints to be slightly superior, but EVERY time after 11.4 minutes gp10 is better. By 20 minutes which is pretty early it's already twice as good. So your reasoning has to be to pick it for the laning phase but its probably like 3-4x worse than hp regen here.
On December 04 2013 00:32 Gahlo wrote:
Runic shield is garbage because of what you have to trade in order to get it. Are you going to give up a rank of tenacious? 15% CC reduction? In quints the options aren't as compelling. Shield health that you can't reactivate is WORSE than HP because you can't regen it back. It doesn't matter what it is until you take damage, because that's the point of health.
Runic shield is worth about 2 hp quints so ~130 gold. Tenacious is worth in a duo lane 3 resists which is worth 60 gold. At maximum (not sure what he radius of it is though, how hard is it to get 5 stacks?) its worth 7.5 resists which is 150 gold. On average you'd expect runic shield to be better. (Except leona relies so heavily on regen to absorb poke at many points of the game, most importantly early game).
Also tenacious and the 15% cc reduction are probably 2 of the 3 best masteries of the game (perserverence sup). You can easily put more than 21 points in the defensive tree because utility and offense don't really offer much to leona. (the better pots are good I guess, but its not a 1 for 1 trade off since if you're not getting the full 9 only the first 4 in offensive are really wroth anything, so 4/26 or 21/9 or 0/30/0 lol)
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On December 04 2013 00:56 Slayer91 wrote:
WHat? You spend the extra gold directly on items. It also helps to get just enoguh gold to get key "super gold" items like targons and sightstone which give retarded amounts of effective gp10.
Leona hard engages there's no real way to hard engage early on, nobody bursts hard enough, it tends to be a series of exchanges unless somebody makes a mistake and the commit ends up in 1 side winning. Otherwise you both back off and then regen is king. That's why early game nobody uses HP quints, because your base HP is normally enough of a buffer zone unless you intend to tower dive or something in a 2v1 lane. The buffer zone is enough that regen massively outperforms it.
You already have tons of regen from defensive masteries+base hp regen+your relic shield+relic shield procs+your first potion that normally I'd say it's fine to get gp10 quints, but regen is a good choice for a hard lane.
Corki/Leona has plenty of damage for a level 2 or 3 instagib, probably some other ADs aswell. Supports in OGN have been using HP quints for a while now, baring maybe a token gp10 quint and a few seals depending on how their lane matchup was. There is no such thing as a relic shield proc.
On December 04 2013 00:56 Slayer91 wrote:
Before the first back, as I said, it's unlikely that flat hp as any more value than 1/2 of a potion. AFTER the first back, there is a small window where maybe you're 6 and hard engages can happen before you get harassed much so there is a potential for HP quints to be slightly superior, but EVERY time after 11.4 minutes gp10 is better. By 20 minutes which is pretty early it's already twice as good. So your reasoning has to be to pick it for the laning phase but its probably like 3-4x worse than hp regen here.
Maybe if pots were instant healing, but they aren't. As far as continuing gain from dp10, HP quints lets you make plays that will give you a straight up advantage in lane which lets you snowball that advantage.
On December 04 2013 00:56 Slayer91 wrote:
Runic shield is worth about 2 hp quints so ~130 gold. Tenacious is worth in a duo lane 3 resists which is worth 60 gold. At maximum (not sure what he radius of it is though, how hard is it to get 5 stacks?) its worth 7.5 resists which is 150 gold. On average you'd expect runic shield to be better. (Except leona relies so heavily on regen to absorb poke at many points of the game, most importantly early game).
Also tenacious and the 15% cc reduction are probably 2 of the 3 best masteries of the game (perserverence sup). You can easily put more than 21 points in the defensive tree because utility and offense don't really offer much to leona. (the better pots are good I guess, but its not a 1 for 1 trade off since if you're not getting the full 9 only the first 4 in offensive are really wroth anything, so 4/26 or 21/9 or 0/30/0 lol)
If Leona is getting poked at all, and lets face it she is, relic shield ends up being pointless. It doesn't come back unless you DIE. Runic shield can block what, 1 or 2 autos? Then it's done. Unlike health, which can be regened(and increases the strength of your perseverance.) If we continue the "HP quints are worth half a potion" nonsense, then enhanced pots makes the smaller shield look like even more garbage.
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Relic shield heals for 2% of your max hp every time you execute, what do you mean there is no proc?
Perserverence is based on %missing HP, how much health you doesn't improve the regen.`
Relic shield being pointless is very close to hp quints being pointless, the difference is just if you can outregen their damage or not before all-ining.
If leona and corki can insta gib, it still doesn't matter that much. What matters if there is a hard engage where you dont kill them but you will if you have 80 hp more, seems to me more likely to get a favourable trade where they have to back off and you do also and you lost a lot less hp and you can zone or gain lane control at least.
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On December 04 2013 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:
Relic shield heals for 2% of your max hp every time you execute, what do you mean there is no proc?
Perserverence is based on %missing HP, how much health you doesn't improve the regen.`
Relic shield being pointless is very close to hp quints being pointless, the difference is just if you can outregen their damage or not before all-ining.
If leona and corki can insta gib, it still doesn't matter that much. What matters if there is a hard engage where you dont kill them but you will if you have 80 hp more, seems to me more likely to get a favourable trade where they have to back off and you do also and you lost a lot less hp and you can zone or gain lane control at least.
At this point I'm pretty sure there were times that we were discussing Relic Shield and I thought you were talking about Runic Shield.
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EPT
