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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On September 21 2011 23:58 rigwarl wrote: I didn't say anything about Skarner not being good with blue, I just said the jungler because he will be lower level. Amumu? Being a lower level hardly matters if the skill set is good unless you're cripplingly far behind. | ||
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Odds
Canada1188 Posts
just put him top lane. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Also, since I don't have a laning guide for him suggestions to that effect are appreciated. | ||
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PandaBlunt
United States292 Posts
On September 22 2011 07:55 Seuss wrote: I'm curious what makes him useless as a jungler that doesn't equally apply to him in lane or to Udyr. Also, since I don't have a laning guide for him suggestions to that effect are appreciated. You would have to use flash to close the distance in order to preform most ganks, and he has nothing in his kit that really allows him to close the distance. Udyr has bear stance which allows him to close distance AND get a stun off. | ||
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rigwarl
United States540 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:36 zer0das wrote: Amumu? Being a lower level hardly matters if the skill set is good unless you're cripplingly far behind. Amumu is frequently played and zero of them take blue (besides the level 1 blue, ofc). I'm not sure what you're saying, all the top teams are doing it wrong? | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On September 22 2011 08:08 PandaBlunt wrote: You would have to use flash to close the distance in order to preform most ganks, and he has nothing in his kit that really allows him to close the distance. Udyr has bear stance which allows him to close distance AND get a stun off. Skarner's W gives 15% movespeed, which is the same as Bear Stance (at rank 1). There's debate to be had over which is better, but saying Skarner "has nothing" for closing distances is patently false. | ||
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Norada
China482 Posts
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KaoReal
Canada340 Posts
On September 22 2011 08:48 Norada wrote: I always thought a manamune would be decent on him since he relies on mana quite a bit. He also scales fairly well with AD on his Q, especially on multiple targets. His base damage is among the highest in the game, so I've always prioritized Sheen on him, but it doesn't quite cover my mana issues. Maybe I'll try a tear after Sheen. My problem with manamune is just how much it cuts into your ability to stay ahead of the damage/movement curve with Sheen/Zeal. I'm wondering how much my early-mid game would be affected by trying to squeeze a tear in. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On September 22 2011 08:39 rigwarl wrote: Amumu is frequently played and zero of them take blue (besides the level 1 blue, ofc). I'm not sure what you're saying, all the top teams are doing it wrong? Not sure what that has to do with the fact that Amumu is really freaking good with blue buff. I really don't think being behind in levels is the critical factor, but rather feeding the AP carry every possible edge they can get. Nothing says you can't tailor your team composition around that issue if you wanted to either, as already mentioned. Whether or not people actually do that is another issue. Just because they choose to give it to the AP carry now doesn't mean it is clearly superior in every case and the jungler hogging blue will never work. | ||
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
On September 22 2011 11:53 zer0das wrote: Not sure what that has to do with the fact that Amumu is really freaking good with blue buff. I really don't think being behind in levels is the critical factor, but rather feeding the AP carry every possible edge they can get. Nothing says you can't tailor your team composition around that issue if you wanted to either, as already mentioned. Whether or not people actually do that is another issue. Just because they choose to give it to the AP carry now doesn't mean it is clearly superior in every case and the jungler hogging blue will never work. I would just like to quote this as brilliant TL posting logical, researched, and counter point on spot I tried him, Im crap, but I was only good when people helped me be not crap. He is like sivir or others, sure could be but...why. Trust me I asked why on sivir I wanted to believe. I wanted to believe on the scorp but so far I cant. | ||
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HAL9OOO
United States176 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Total cost: 4060-6060g. This is dirt cheap and super effective. What you do from there is pretty much up to you. There are plenty of good options depending on the circumstances. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 22 2011 07:55 Seuss wrote: I'm curious what makes him useless as a jungler that doesn't equally apply to him in lane or to Udyr. Also, since I don't have a laning guide for him suggestions to that effect are appreciated. Off the top of my head: Udyr is faster Udyr is less blue-dependent Udyr is stronger at 1v1ing people (combination of higher damage, innate dodge, turtle stance, and a stun every 6 seconds), making him harder to threaten in the jungle. Udyr becomes dragon-capable earlier On September 22 2011 11:53 zer0das wrote: Not sure what that has to do with the fact that Amumu is really freaking good with blue buff. I really don't think being behind in levels is the critical factor, but rather feeding the AP carry every possible edge they can get. Nothing says you can't tailor your team composition around that issue if you wanted to either, as already mentioned. Actually, Amumu does very little with blue buff if you take it when your ultimate is on CD. CDR sources do not affect cooldowns that are already ticking down, Q is high enough CD that blue is not likely to alter the number of meaningful stuns you get in a fight, and W naturally doesn't benefit from it. Which means that E is the only spell really benefitting from the CDR. Post-philo mana is not a concern either. On September 22 2011 11:53 zer0das wrote: Whether or not people actually do that is another issue. Just because they choose to give it to the AP carry now doesn't mean it is clearly superior in every case and the jungler hogging blue will never work. This is true, but at the same time, requiring blue to maintain midgame presence/farming speed is a definitive weakness of a champion that must be acknowledged. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On September 22 2011 17:00 TheYango wrote: Off the top of my head: Udyr is faster Udyr is less blue-dependent Udyr is stronger at 1v1ing people (combination of higher damage, innate dodge, turtle stance, and a stun every 6 seconds), making him harder to threaten in the jungle. Udyr becomes dragon-capable earlier It wasn't my intention to assert that Skarner and Udyr are perfectly equatable, but to address the comparison with Morde. While one can argue that Udyr is superior, arguing that Skarner is useless beyond farming the jungle seems difficult without also arguing the same for Udyr. | ||
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NightWalks
Latvia252 Posts
1) Predictable in Jungle : must start at blue and follow the good old route . Lv1 teemfight + blue steel sets him back imensly . Yes mumu has the same issue , but he does provide teem with game changing ult without items or bufs . 2) Mele with no insta gap closer : Eats ton of dmg if try Irelia / Akali / Jarvan shenanigans ( aka can't go in - burst - go out ) 3) Blue whore - when i jungle Noc and Lee i can donate ALL blues to top/mid and still jungle fast and gank strong . To summ up ... Skarner is a good idea , but just feels meh in currnt champ selection and picking him decreases win rate . Even if you are god of Skarners and posses good skills ( Sushei ) choosing other champ would make you mega god . ..... | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
Cloth + 5 blue-wolves-gank-wraith(counterwraith if opponent ganks at lvl 2)-minis/wraith-gank/minis-gank-back ninja tabi -> sheen -> hetech revolver -> gunblade -> banshees -> sunfire-> rageblade -> trinity. it's a little on the "reccomended" side but it really gets the job done once you get hextech + vamp scepter you pretty much don't have to b until a full item is done which allows you to tap into skarner true power his passive. staying in jungle constantly auto attacking allows you to ultimate very rapidly sometimes ganking a lane only 30 seconds apart which is very rapid. allowing your mid game to consist of entirely ruining any lane you want as often as you want. EQW R>Q>W>E dodge yellow flat AP quint MR/lvl blue flat AD red. your W along with good positioning really allow for some excellent ganks. usually i use my flash on my lvl 2 gank so by the time i need it again it'll be up and using flash for the gank allows you to do very well with it. Skarner is currently my best jungler. he's fast, he counter jungles, he ganks very well once you know what you are doing and he doesn't have to go back. your biggest hiccup is after gunblade when you sometimes have to buy armor + cloak before finishing either item because of damage output on the other team. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On September 23 2011 17:05 NightWalks wrote: Why i wouldn't pick skarner : 1) Predictable in Jungle : must start at blue and follow the good old route . Lv1 teemfight + blue steel sets him back imensly . Yes mumu has the same issue , but he does provide teem with game changing ult without items or bufs . 2) Mele with no insta gap closer : Eats ton of dmg if try Irelia / Akali / Jarvan shenanigans ( aka can't go in - burst - go out ) 3) Blue whore - when i jungle Noc and Lee i can donate ALL blues to top/mid and still jungle fast and gank strong . To summ up ... Skarner is a good idea , but just feels meh in currnt champ selection and picking him decreases win rate . Even if you are god of Skarners and posses good skills ( Sushei ) choosing other champ would make you mega god . ..... #2 and #3 are fair points, but #1 isn't. Blue may be the best/most obvious place to start, but Skarner can follow other routes. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 23 2011 22:56 Seuss wrote: #2 and #3 are fair points, but #1 isn't. Blue may be the best/most obvious place to start, but Skarner can follow other routes. This especially if you start with E. you can go wraith wolves wraiths minis gank back blue easily. as well as minis first. you can even if the other team is protecting blue go their wraiths wolves wraiths blue minis and instant gap closers i don't feel are impporant at all for junglers. rammus udyr trundle nocturne (sans ultimate) skarner all don't have that. and that blue whore thing i don't even view as a bad thing. good skarners will keep track of opponents blue and constantly take that one for themselves. at least i do. i give my blue to anyone who needs it. skarners ultimate is also very game changing in that it can happen every 30 seconds and counter any teleport skill including flash and blinks when you time it right. so the point about ignoring 1 for mumu i dsagree with when alot of ultimates for junglers are game changing. nocturnes alone for instance forces people to play safe even when nocturne is ganking another lane being able to force a team kill on an enemy champion like skarners ultimate does is also game changing. hell it's also good to use on the enemy CC tank to keep them from CCing your team. | ||
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FuzzyLord
253 Posts
On September 24 2011 07:11 PrinceXizor wrote: This especially if you start with E. you can go wraith wolves wraiths minis gank back blue easily. as well as minis first. you can even if the other team is protecting blue go their wraiths wolves wraiths blue minis and instant gap closers i don't feel are impporant at all for junglers. rammus udyr trundle nocturne (sans ultimate) skarner all don't have that. and that blue whore thing i don't even view as a bad thing. good skarners will keep track of opponents blue and constantly take that one for themselves. at least i do. i give my blue to anyone who needs it. skarners ultimate is also very game changing in that it can happen every 30 seconds and counter any teleport skill including flash and blinks when you time it right. so the point about ignoring 1 for mumu i dsagree with when alot of ultimates for junglers are game changing. nocturnes alone for instance forces people to play safe even when nocturne is ganking another lane being able to force a team kill on an enemy champion like skarners ultimate does is also game changing. hell it's also good to use on the enemy CC tank to keep them from CCing your team. On the point of getting blue later, Blue buff gets more hp the later the game is, since his hp increases with the highest level in the game. Jungler are typically on par with leveling as a duo-lane, which is usually 1-2 levels behind mid. Therefore, the later you jungle, the longer it takes to get blue. Getting blue is probably more beneficial than getting it late. On the second point about gap closer: It is true that they do not have instant gap closers, but there is a huge difference between them and skarner. The immediate CC: Rammus - powerball increases your movement speed, temporary knock back, and gives time to instantly taunt them. Udyr: Bear stance gives you bonus movement speed and a stun Trundle: Pillar of filth alters the terrain to block of retreat paths Nocturne: Duskbringer increases your movement speed, then you can fear them. Skarner has none of this. His only non-ult CC is a slow, and that only occurs when you hit the target twice. If Skarner had a better cc, then i would have no problem with no gap closer. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
Skarner: W increases movespeed, then you can slow them. using non ult as an important descriptor only matters when the cooldown is an issue but skarners ultimate cd is very low when his passive is put into account. and hitting his slow twice takes 2 seconds hit with q auto attack 1 second slow. skarners cc is on par with nocturns in that he requires a period of time in order for it to even matter. while you can flash out of both. skarners occurs much faster than nocturnes and lasts longer. oftentimes once you get slowed you are slowed until rescue or death while nocturnes fear lasts a second and half typically. skarners cc is very good actually but thats more an in practice cc than theory crafting issue. i completely ignore udyrs cc as an actual CC since it's pretty much equivilent to rivens W. lasts practically no time at all and only gives enough time for 1 attack. | ||
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