EPTwhile noone plays him anywhere l0l
except me and other TLers
[Champion] Pantheon - Page 14
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
while noone plays him anywhere l0l except me and other TLers | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On December 21 2011 16:27 freelander wrote: I love how Pantheon is like the most discussed champion on TL while noone plays him anywhere l0l except me and other TLers The champion threads that have the most discussion are also the best written ones. Thank the authors. zzz | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On December 21 2011 16:27 freelander wrote: I love how Pantheon is like the most discussed champion on TL while noone plays him anywhere l0l except me and other TLers You have to take into account that people tend not to play offbeat champions in ranked because it leads to trolling. I think champs like Mundo, karma, and shen are legitimately good if they get a lane they can win (which is 95% of lanes) and lots of xp and farm in a solo lane but I never play them in ranked just because I'd get trolled unless I played one of them so much that I'm known for playing that champ. (like Kotlettdrakes katarina is atm in EU west) | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On December 21 2011 15:30 Mogwai wrote: I've been toying with the idea of going back to full ArPen. Haven't run the numbers in such a way that I'm convinced it's better yet, but it always comes out close. I'm glad to see you're seeing the matchups the same way I have Loci. I was beginning to think that maybe just every 1900 Riven sucks vs. Panth cause I crush them every time. What runes do you usually run? For top lane, (usually vs bruisers), I run armorpen reds/quints, armor yellows, scaling MR blues, (how many top lanes actually deal magic damage early game?) I open d-blade like 90% of the time in top lane. For mid lane, (usually vs casters), I run armor pen reds, flat AD quints, flat mana-regen yellows, and flat MR blues. I open boots 90% of the time in mid lane. Does that sound optimal or should I switch it around some? | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
Hes so much fun to play. Maybe its because I am new but i seem to always do better when I get boots and pots versus dblade. Should i wait till i have a full set of runes/masteries to try dblade again? Or am I only failing because I'm bad. | ||
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Wala.Revolution
7584 Posts
I think it was with armor < 40 targets that ad reds and quints were better than ad quints/apen reds with spear chucking. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On December 21 2011 23:53 Wala.Revolution wrote: According to Infinite who I trust with mathcraft, spear chucking at level 1 AD quints are better than apen quints assuming Apen reds, standard 21/0/9. The difference was 2% or so you barely lose anything by switching them. I think it was with armor < 40 targets that ad reds and quints were better than ad quints/apen reds with spear chucking. This is probably true, but top lane champs are very likely to build wriggles, (at least trynd/riven do, and they're my top picks to counter with panth). Full arpen runes and a bruta gives you 41 flat armor pen. Overkill for mid lane, but still not lowering most top champ's armor to 0. But giving them 20 armor instead of 60 is a really nice boost in damage imo. | ||
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Zanzabar Haberdasher
United States510 Posts
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On December 22 2011 01:06 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: I've been testing the throwback +19 ad rune page. It seems to work reasonably well against most champions.. especially the melee attrition types who usually sustain against average damage output. Once you get a lead in HP and drop a ward you can zone starting at level 3. He's just soooo weak to Udyr. But who isn't? panth should crush udyr, one of the few who do o.O edit: litmus test: if it's melee, it probably loses to pantheon. due to passive and sheer dmg output, there are practically no champions that can just fight toe to toe without kiting him in the early game. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Zanzabar Haberdasher
United States510 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I think that's what has been my biggest grief with Pantheon: you can easily force 1v2 if you dominate your opponent, or threaten to do so, but ultimately it's up to your team to take advantage of that. You aren't Nasus, Riven, Irelia or whatever, where surviving's good enough as long as you can get some farm and you'll just hit your strongest a bit later than usual, they need to capitalize early and I haven't seen a lot do that. I guess that's because he's not so played. :/ | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On December 22 2011 02:11 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: I meant top lane + Udyr jungle. If he camps you around the time you would get a massive advantage (3-5), there's nothing you can do. To commit would mean death. uh...any jungler camping top lane would mean death for any top lane champ who overcommits, regardless of matchup, so i dont get why specifically udyr to specifically panth. You're basically saying that 2 champions will typically beat pantheon in an early game fight, which makes perfect sense, but doesn't really contribute any new ideas. There are also ways of dealing with (basically) 2v1's top which include counterganks and simply destroying the rest of the map with a 4v3 advantage that aren't really in the scope of discussion. I mean you could easily say that you can beat panth top by just being a better player than him, but that doesn't really fit in the scope of the discussion either. \rant i guess i'm just getting tired of this whole 'jungler counters top lane' deal edit: tbh, i'm not even that certain he's terribly susceptible to ganks (meaning he's a sitting duck), since there are some really cute things u can do with aegis stun + flash. so i guess he's more susceptible when aegis and flash are on cd, but then trynd is when his spin is on cd too, and fizz, generally regarded as a pretty slippery fucker is significantly more susceptible to ganks when trickster is on cd, vlad pool, etc etc. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
Udyr can easily gank you when you're level 3 without losing anything, and gank again at level 5 or so again losing little to nothing. Udyr is incredibly weak ganking mid and bot anyway. Coming top when you clear jungle and camping by literally sitting in the brush are different things. When you play top and you get ganked and flash you have to be careful because some assholes will stay in that brush then then other guys will have gone to clear their jungle and will be back just when you're starting to feel safe. I don't think udyr is a relevant champion to name but I get it works since he clears fastest and ganks strong if you don't have flash you're almost guaranteed to die since everyone starts boots on udyr now as well. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On December 22 2011 03:46 Slayer91 wrote: Well, I get the feeling that panth becomes really weak after level 6 and relies on punishing their lane opponent before he gets his first big buy, if you die once early you'll be useless for the rest of the game. Also jungler ganks are at their strongest at top lane before the first buy because there's no wards and melees are already really easy to gank. Compare it to mid which is shorter with a ranged champion playing passively or bot with a support and wards. Of course, that's just my opinion I'm not a huge pantheon player so don't take my opinion with too much weight. Udyr can easily gank you when you're level 3 without losing anything, and gank again at level 5 or so again losing little to nothing. Udyr is incredibly weak ganking mid and bot anyway. Coming top when you clear jungle and camping by literally sitting in the brush are different things. When you play top and you get ganked and flash you have to be careful because some assholes will stay in that brush then then other guys will have gone to clear their jungle and will be back just when you're starting to feel safe. I don't think udyr is a relevant champion to name but I get it works since he clears fastest and ganks strong if you don't have flash you're almost guaranteed to die since everyone starts boots on udyr now as well. i'm not refuting that an udyr who ganks top has a decent chance of killing pantheon, i just don't see how it contributes to anything at all, because that applies to nearly any jungler to nearly any solo top | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
Udyr? Never plays agressive early Irelia? Waits till level 7 at least Warwick? Q does nothing for half your mana until like level 7 as well. Renek? Has basically 3 flashes to get away and is very hard to kill after level 6. Trynd, GP, I guess rumble, and wukong are the guys who play agressive early. Trynd has spin and later ulti, GP has oranges and Rumble needs revolver to really start owning people and I dunno about wukong. So your typical bruiser simply sits and farms top and then back and buy and ward their lane before they even think of laning past the half way mark, unless lane happens to push. Meanwhile pantheon is trying hard as hell to kill you before you buy so he can be more effective than you later on and that's the kind of play easy to punish. You can kinda do the same thing with rumbles and gps that play agressive early, though. Although I probably underestimate Aegis stun+flash for getting away from a dicey situation. But if you don't have a ward and your laner baits him to stun because you do something stupid like get a ranged cs then you could be screwed even with flash. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
Have you even laned against him? o.O He'll kill you at lvl1 if given the chance, and he'll do it again at lvl2. Against pantheon, 'sitting back" and "farming" are pretty mutually exclusive without massive intervention from your jungler. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
(Warning: Requires knowing where the hell the enemy jungler is, or just having your jungler follow you in to an early level 1 or level 3 2v1 and trying to catch the opponent extra hard and hoping their jungler doesn't show up in a way that dicks you over.) | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On December 22 2011 04:03 Slayer91 wrote: Simply because most bruiser tops have very little aggressive resources early and benefit from playing passive until levels 6/7 and usually have at least boots + wriggles or razors and a ward which lets them play agressive without loldying. Udyr? Never plays agressive early Irelia? Waits till level 7 at least Warwick? Q does nothing for half your mana until like level 7 as well. Renek? Has basically 3 flashes to get away and is very hard to kill after level 6. Trynd, GP, I guess rumble, and wukong are the guys who play agressive early. Trynd has spin and later ulti, GP has oranges and Rumble needs revolver to really start owning people and I dunno about wukong. So your typical bruiser simply sits and farms top and then back and buy and ward their lane before they even think of laning past the half way mark, unless lane happens to push. Meanwhile pantheon is trying hard as hell to kill you before you buy so he can be more effective than you later on and that's the kind of play easy to punish. You can kinda do the same thing with rumbles and gps that play agressive early, though. Although I probably underestimate Aegis stun+flash for getting away from a dicey situation. But if you don't have a ward and your laner baits him to stun because you do something stupid like get a ranged cs then you could be screwed even with flash. I usually agree with you Slayer, but here it just sounds like you have never played vs. a Pantheon who knows what the hell they're doing. | ||
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