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On December 15 2011 16:38 TheYango wrote:
Looking at this from a neutral perspective, I don't see Nasus as a counter to Pantheon. But I don't see Pantheon as a counter to Nasus either. And I think you guys are arguing over nothing.
Nasus has a viable game-plan against Pantheon. That's fairly obvious. Try to stick around in lane and eventually get to farm your shit (either when Pantheon leaves to do other shit, or with some amount of babysitting). Outscale the fuck out of Pantheon lategame as a hard melee carry (in other words, Nasus' game-plan against basically everyone).
Pantheon also has a viable game-plan against Nasus. Facefuck him in lane. Deny him CS, and kill him if possible. Get free-farm. Then when you are ready, go make shit happen around the map and end the game before Nasus has a chance to recover and farm up to his invincible melee-carry status.
These are both stable strategies.One of them doesn't inherently "counter" the other. One is focused on dragging out the game into a lategame carry scenario, while the other is looking at an aggressive gank->push strategy that wants to end the game early. The success of either strategy is dependent on how its supported by the other 4 members of each team, both in terms of how well they play, and how well the picks support the general strategy. How good is Nasus' team at stalling and holding onto shit? How good is Pantheon's team at taking objectives? How strong is the initiation/counter-initiation involved? Pantheon can shit on Nasus all he wants, but if his team doesn't have the means to take objectives, then it's rough turning your lane advantage into a win before Nasus eventually gets to farm his shit. Likewise, Nasus can farm all he wants, but if his team can't stall towers/inhibs/Baron until he gets big, it's not going to accomplish anything.
That entire paragraph, however, boils down to basically whichever team plays better wins. Which is kind of a dumb argument in the whole panth v. nasus debate because that's kinda how you win a game of LoL regardless of champ select; whichever team plays better with their comp wins.
The problem I have with guitar's argument is that he's more or less saying that if Nasus has a better team he'll win, which is a stupid argument imo. When dealing with lane matchups it's kinda pointless to bring in the entire team into the equation because then almost every matchup is theoretically "winnable." It's important to take note of the jungler, but honestly, if in order to win or even equalize your lane you absolutely need to bring the jungler into the equation it's kind of indicative of a bad matchup don't you think?
On December 15 2011 15:41 Two_DoWn wrote:
Generally its a bad idea to claim you aren't being arrogant by calling the rest of us retards.
On December 15 2011 14:50 gtrsrs wrote:
Absolutely none of my posts were arrogant or stupid. I've raised valid points in a calm respectful way and you and your cronies are just yelling at me mocking me and bashing me for no reason. Just because you've never been to china doesn't mean it doesn't exist, gizbro. Likewise, just because you can beat nasus every time doesn't mean my suggestions are wrong. But please, keep raving. I neverthought of all the dunderheads that post here you would reach this level of craziness. Much respect lost bro
Yea, you pretty much called us retards. Maybe you weren't trying to be arrogant, but some of your posts sounded a bit lofty imho
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United States47024 Posts
On December 15 2011 17:02 Ryuu314 wrote:
That entire paragraph, however, boils down to basically whichever team plays better wins. Which is kind of a dumb argument in the whole panth v. nasus debate because that's kinda how you win a game of LoL regardless of champ select; whichever team plays better with their comp wins.
The problem I have with guitar's argument is that he's more or less saying that if Nasus has a better team he'll win, which is a stupid argument imo. When dealing with lane matchups it's kinda pointless to bring in the entire team into the equation because then almost every matchup is theoretically "winnable." It's important to take note of the jungler, but honestly, if in order to win or even equalize your lane you absolutely need to bring the jungler into the equation it's kind of indicative of a bad matchup don't you think?
Pantheon is a midgame tempo-carrying champ. Nasus is a late-game carry. It's Pantheon's ROLE to stunt Nasus' development, and if he weren't good at it to some extent, then he would be worthless as a champ.
No, I don't think it's farfetched to assume a scenario where Nasus is getting help in lane, because it's not at all farfetched for a team to be allocating a large fraction of resources toward securing the development of a lategame carry. That's how you're supposed to play when your team has a champ that outscales the other 9 players in the game. From the perspective of a jungler, I don't even think I would pick Nasus at all if I weren't expecting to do a significant amount of babysitting for him.
Assuming the mirror-scenario where the enemy jungler babysits Pantheon doesn't achieve the same effect because Pantheon is not a late-game carry. Going out of your way to babysit his development doesn't pay dividends in nearly the same way. It's not about Pantheon's team being "worse" than Nasus' team--it's about the fact that the payoff for the enemy jungler making an inordinate presence to help Pantheon is much lower than for Nasus' jungler helping him, and therefore it's natural to expect a larger jungler presence from Nasus' team.
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On December 15 2011 17:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:02 Ryuu314 wrote:
That entire paragraph, however, boils down to basically whichever team plays better wins. Which is kind of a dumb argument in the whole panth v. nasus debate because that's kinda how you win a game of LoL regardless of champ select; whichever team plays better with their comp wins.
The problem I have with guitar's argument is that he's more or less saying that if Nasus has a better team he'll win, which is a stupid argument imo. When dealing with lane matchups it's kinda pointless to bring in the entire team into the equation because then almost every matchup is theoretically "winnable." It's important to take note of the jungler, but honestly, if in order to win or even equalize your lane you absolutely need to bring the jungler into the equation it's kind of indicative of a bad matchup don't you think?
Pantheon is a midgame tempo-carrying champ. Nasus is a late-game carry. It's Pantheon's ROLE to stunt Nasus' development, and if he weren't good at it to some extent, then he would be worthless as a champ. No, I don't think it's farfetched to assume a scenario where Nasus is getting help in lane, because it's not at all farfetched for a team to be allocating a large fraction of resources toward securing the development of a lategame carry. That's how you're supposed to play when your team has a champ that outscales the other 9 players in the game. From the perspective of a jungler, I don't even think I would pick Nasus at all if I weren't expecting to do a significant amount of babysitting for him. Assuming the mirror-scenario where the enemy jungler babysits Pantheon doesn't achieve the same effect because Pantheon is not a late-game carry. Going out of your way to babysit his development doesn't pay dividends in nearly the same way. It's not about Pantheon's team being "worse" than Nasus' team--it's about the fact that the payoff for the enemy jungler making an inordinate presence to help Pantheon is much lower than for Nasus' jungler helping him, and therefore it's natural to expect a larger jungler presence from Nasus' team.
Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day.
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On December 15 2011 17:02 Ryuu314 wrote:
Yea, you pretty much called us retards. Maybe you weren't trying to be arrogant, but some of your posts sounded a bit lofty imho
i actually like you ryuu, i wasn't referring to you
it was mostly brees/twodowns/dnasty/jackdino/all the other people who respond to everything i say with "lol ur bad" that i was referring to
but keep posting itt and find yourself on that list!
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United States47024 Posts
On December 15 2011 17:20 Ryuu314 wrote:
Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day.
An early-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things early-game. A late-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things late-game. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. But just saying that doesn't tell you anything about the interactions between those champs. If early-game champs having an advantage early on was enough to win games, then people would always play early-game dominators, and nobody would play late-game carries.
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On December 15 2011 17:02 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:38 TheYango wrote:
Looking at this from a neutral perspective, I don't see Nasus as a counter to Pantheon. But I don't see Pantheon as a counter to Nasus either. And I think you guys are arguing over nothing.
Nasus has a viable game-plan against Pantheon. That's fairly obvious. Try to stick around in lane and eventually get to farm your shit (either when Pantheon leaves to do other shit, or with some amount of babysitting). Outscale the fuck out of Pantheon lategame as a hard melee carry (in other words, Nasus' game-plan against basically everyone).
Pantheon also has a viable game-plan against Nasus. Facefuck him in lane. Deny him CS, and kill him if possible. Get free-farm. Then when you are ready, go make shit happen around the map and end the game before Nasus has a chance to recover and farm up to his invincible melee-carry status.
These are both stable strategies.One of them doesn't inherently "counter" the other. One is focused on dragging out the game into a lategame carry scenario, while the other is looking at an aggressive gank->push strategy that wants to end the game early. The success of either strategy is dependent on how its supported by the other 4 members of each team, both in terms of how well they play, and how well the picks support the general strategy. How good is Nasus' team at stalling and holding onto shit? How good is Pantheon's team at taking objectives? How strong is the initiation/counter-initiation involved? Pantheon can shit on Nasus all he wants, but if his team doesn't have the means to take objectives, then it's rough turning your lane advantage into a win before Nasus eventually gets to farm his shit. Likewise, Nasus can farm all he wants, but if his team can't stall towers/inhibs/Baron until he gets big, it's not going to accomplish anything. That entire paragraph, however, boils down to basically whichever team plays better wins. Which is kind of a dumb argument in the whole panth v. nasus debate because that's kinda how you win a game of LoL regardless of champ select; whichever team plays better with their comp wins. The problem I have with guitar's argument is that he's more or less saying that if Nasus has a better team he'll win, which is a stupid argument imo. When dealing with lane matchups it's kinda pointless to bring in the entire team into the equation because then almost every matchup is theoretically "winnable." It's important to take note of the jungler, but honestly, if in order to win or even equalize your lane you absolutely need to bring the jungler into the equation it's kind of indicative of a bad matchup don't you think? Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:41 Two_DoWn wrote:
Generally its a bad idea to claim you aren't being arrogant by calling the rest of us retards. Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 14:50 gtrsrs wrote:
Absolutely none of my posts were arrogant or stupid. I've raised valid points in a calm respectful way and you and your cronies are just yelling at me mocking me and bashing me for no reason. Just because you've never been to china doesn't mean it doesn't exist, gizbro. Likewise, just because you can beat nasus every time doesn't mean my suggestions are wrong. But please, keep raving. I neverthought of all the dunderheads that post here you would reach this level of craziness. Much respect lost bro Yea, you pretty much called us retards. Maybe you weren't trying to be arrogant, but some of your posts sounded a bit lofty imho
i think its a completely fine paragraph. if both teams are able to win by playing better then the game is balanced enough, atleast with respect to these 2 champs. if you are saying this isnt true then the game is imbalanced crap. but if you agree then how to play the lane to win is a discussion to worth having.
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On December 15 2011 17:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:20 Ryuu314 wrote:
Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day. An early-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things early-game. A late-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things late-game. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. But just saying that doesn't tell you anything about the interactions between those champs. If early-game champs having an advantage early on was enough to win games, then people would always play early-game dominators, and nobody would play late-game carries.
okay fair enough. But i just feel that you have to draw the distinction between a matchup that's so tilted in favor of one side, the opportunity cost in order for that champ's team to equalize the matchup isn't worth playing that matchup in the first place.
in other words, i don't want to put words into smash's mouth but what I got from his posts and what I personally feel, is that in order for Nasus's team to make that matchup bearable/winnable for Nasus the team has to make sacrifices to the point where it's simply just not worth it. I mean, sure, Nasus scales fucking hard and with enough babysitting he can reach that point, but his team is at such a huge disadvantage he probably won't get there. As opposed to say an Irelia pick vs. Panth; Irelia can beat or equalize the lane against Panth much earlier/easier so Irelia's team doesn't have to sacrifice nearly as much.
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On December 15 2011 17:22 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:02 Ryuu314 wrote:
Yea, you pretty much called us retards. Maybe you weren't trying to be arrogant, but some of your posts sounded a bit lofty imho i actually like you ryuu, i wasn't referring to you it was mostly brees/twodowns/dnasty/jackdino/all the other people who respond to everything i say with "lol ur bad" that i was referring to but keep posting itt and find yourself on that list!
It's almost like lots of people repeatedly call you a bad poster. Maybe this is because you make bad posts. But you know, keep up the victim complex!
EDIT: On topic, I'm not going to pretend I'm good enough at this game to play it at the level that Smash does, but I think there's some confusion on what his actual point is.
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On December 15 2011 17:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:20 Ryuu314 wrote:
Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day. An early-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things early-game. A late-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things late-game. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. But just saying that doesn't tell you anything about the interactions between those champs. If early-game champs having an advantage early on was enough to win games, then people would always play early-game dominators, and nobody would play late-game carries.
fine
look at the interactions between the two champs.
Pantheon has his 2 strongest abilities as low mana cost, low CD, AD Scaling nukes, one of which is a channel. He has a stun and semi-global presence via his ult. He's most effective @ levels 1-9 and tends to taper off after level 13. His Passive blocks auto attacks and is refreshed by his stun.
Nasus has an Attack Modifier that requires last hits to scale well. He has decent AoE creep clearing with spirit fire. He has a giant move/attack speed debuff with wither and a strong teamfighting ult steroid. He's a garbage character until level 11 and a ton of Q farm and needs to get into melee range to farm said Q. The only way he wins lane trades is via hitting Qs.
Alright, so, Pantheon bosses everyone up @ low levels, even those with strong level 1 skills. Spear Shot + Aegis Protection is too strong. So you can't fight him level 1 unless you have a deathwish, especially as nasus. You can't get last hits without fighting him because that's what Pantheon does. You're zoned, right off the bat. You don't catch up to the point where you can 1v1 Pantheon ever because you can never get the farm to hit your sweet spot because a great Pantheon won't let you get there. Nasus's best 1v1 skills are whither and siphoning strike. Pantheon's Aegis will fuck up siphoning strike, even if you do a regular attack to pop the proc, Pantheon can respond by stunning you before you get the Q off if he's any good at all, meaning you're just never going to land a Q while aegis is off CD. Whither is mana intensive and does proportionally little to Pantheon's damage output compared to most characters because it doesn't do anything to Spear Shot or HSS. So basically, Nasus's only hope is to power level Spirit Fire, get philo + glacial shroud and just use Spirit Fire to Farm and Whither to disengage unless he gets ganks. By the time you get to that point, you're staring down at a pantheon with bare minimum brutalizer + 2 dblades + several hundred gold in the bank (assuming even farm, which is only possible if your jungle puts himself behind to camp top to force Pantheon to be honest). This gameplan leaves you with a team with no map control on the bottom half of the map for the early section of the game in exchange for a nasus with poor Q farm and an underfarmed jungler... ok, super, how is this acceptable again?
Like, tell me a character that can't do at least that well if not better with a jungler camping for them. What makes nasus a good pick here? He can't get his early Q farm, he has a terrible skill set for 1v1ing Pantheon, if this is our strategy, why aren't we just picking Irelia and camping the lane. Irelia with wriggle's + chain vest is more resilient vs. pantheon and more threatening to him than a Nasus with Glacial + Philo and she scales almost as hard off the same farm.
What I'm saying is that the Nasus pick isn't what's worrying me as Pantheon, it's the fucking jungler camping my lane. If he's not, I will destroy Nasus. If that's not a bad matchup, I don't know what is and I might as well quit LoL because I don't understand the fundamental concepts of the game.
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I dunno, it just feels to me that towerdiving before you even have boots seems like a pretty gimmicky way of winning lane. I mean as a jungler top is so fucking easy to gank and when someone even pushes a little bit without boots it just feels like a free kill even with flash if I have something like nasus slow. I guess you can countergank but I usually play like skarner or udyr or riven or generally people who can easily get away and generally take no damage in ganks+win against almost 2v2 early game because of retarded aoes/shields.
Like, I almost never gank bot early, like pre 6 because 2 people with flash+3 wards at level 1 + support to help him makes it too hard and risky. Mid is usually a waste of time pre 6 and after if it's an ungankable mid unless they overextend super hard so generally any agressive pushing top lane to me is just free kills or at least forces them to flash and back if you didn't buy any potions and started dblade. It's not even camping lane its just coming to gank when I feel the oppurtunity is there and I have my jungle cleared anyway, I'll lose some time because respawn is shorter now but they're still a small bit of down time.
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Pantheon completely and utterly ruins Nasus' shit 1v1 and it's not even close. He's the hardest counter in the game to Nasus because his early dominance completely gimps Nasus, who requires reasonable sustained Q farming from the first creep wave onward.
And yes, if Nasus gets babysat, there's no hardcounter for a 1v2 lane. But forcing someone to babysit toplane is just giving dragon and ganks in the other two lanes, which pantheon can help with (atleast midlane if this is all going on top) with his ult.
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As for the Nasus against pantheon lane, I actually feel like missing out on almost all of the Q's early levels isn't that big of a deal for Nasus. You have an huge cooldown on Q early levels and you only get 1 or 2 per wave. (at least if it gets pushed to tower which happens a LOT of nasus) You have like 1/3 of the cooldown after you get your glacial and level 9 and thats when you start really farming it at a good rate, also around the point where it's really hard to zone nasus because he just heals so much so even if he can't 1v1 you unless you can tower dive a nasus (with ultimate must be hard even for pantheon) you don't have an easy wave of denying him unless the wave pushes and you like hold it or something.
I also don't believe in everyone thinking you need 5000 stacks in Q to be effective. Nasus is pretty useful in teamfights after he gets ultimate. His whither with a lot of CDR has very high uptime and is very gimping and his base damage with ultimate % leeching isn't that bad for a tank. It's just he does crazy damage for a tank when he does get that Q farm.
I mean obviously you can say malphite or whatever is far more useful than nasus with 0 stacks in Q because of the initiate, but after that Nasus has a better slow is more tanky and is still probably better at doing damage. Not to mention that I don't think Nasus won't be able to get some good stacks going once he has his low cooldown on Q.
Obviously if you ever kill Nasus a couple times early he's going to be useless for the midgame because he'll be so underleveled and have no items that he won't compare to a now fed and free farming pantheon but I feel like if Nasus just doesn't do anything stupid he won't be so far behind that he won't be able to be effective.
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On December 16 2011 01:43 Slayer91 wrote:
As for the Nasus against pantheon lane, I actually feel like missing out on almost all of the Q's early levels isn't that big of a deal for Nasus. You have an huge cooldown on Q early levels and you only get 1 or 2 per wave. (at least if it gets pushed to tower which happens a LOT of nasus) You have like 1/3 of the cooldown after you get your glacial and level 9 and thats when you start really farming it at a good rate, also around the point where it's really hard to zone nasus because he just heals so much so even if he can't 1v1 you unless you can tower dive a nasus (with ultimate must be hard even for pantheon) you don't have an easy wave of denying him unless the wave pushes and you like hold it or something.
I also don't believe in everyone thinking you need 5000 stacks in Q to be effective. Nasus is pretty useful in teamfights after he gets ultimate. His whither with a lot of CDR has very high uptime and is very gimping and his base damage with ultimate % leeching isn't that bad for a tank. It's just he does crazy damage for a tank when he does get that Q farm.
I mean obviously you can say malphite or whatever is far more useful than nasus with 0 stacks in Q because of the initiate, but after that Nasus has a better slow is more tanky and is still probably better at doing damage. Not to mention that I don't think Nasus won't be able to get some good stacks going once he has his low cooldown on Q.
Obviously if you ever kill Nasus a couple times early he's going to be useless for the midgame because he'll be so underleveled and have no items that he won't compare to a now fed and free farming pantheon but I feel like if Nasus just doesn't do anything stupid he won't be so far behind that he won't be able to be effective.
Having gone on Nasus kicks from time to time, I find his late game absurdly overrated. I still don't see how you're supposed to do jack all against a ranged carry that can melt faces with a team that has CC.
but w/e that's neither here nor there, as far as vs. Pantheon is concerned, you can't safely farm and you can't 1v1 him. you wanna say you can just play safe and not die, fine, w/e, I'll give you that if it means we can move on and discuss the fact that you're going to get denied to the point where you're going to be less useful to your team than I am going to be to mine until you get 5 minutes straight of free farm. If you want to deny both of these, I'll just see you on the fields of justice, cause I've yet to encounter a nasus who has not gotten completely dumped on by my Pantheon.
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I'm still mystified how any pantheon is winning a lane vs one of the tankier tops especially if nasus is opening cloth.
How are you not completely buttfucked on mana by the time he's burned his pots?
Can anyone direct me to a vod of this happening?
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Canada5009 Posts
On December 16 2011 02:36 randomKo_Orean wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:00 Haemonculus wrote:
I discovered a fun pantheon trick last night.
Did anyone else see that video that was posted on Reddit about how to get Garen's ult to fire like twice as far as normal? Basically if you attempt to cast your ult while spinning, and then issue *no* other commands until your spin ends, Garen would ult the target you clicked on even if it had moved way out of range as soon as he stopped spinning. This required some finesse, as you had to predict where your target would be because if you moved at all while spinning the trick wouldn't work.
Same principle applies to HSS and Q. If you smartcast a Q while you are casting HSS, even if your target moves wildly out of range while casting, as soon as HSS is done channeling, you will chuck that spear. I was laning Panth vs Kass mid, and generally stomping his face in mantheon style. I jumped on his face, auto, HSS, and smartcast a Q. As soon as the stun wore off kass riftwalked away. HSS finished, and I chucked a spear across the entire goddamn lane. Not even a threw it *while* he was riftwalking. He finished his rift, and then I threw the spear, and it just traveled like 4 times as far as normal and hit him under tower.
Pretty snazzy trick for those jerks that like to flash out of your combo! teach me to smartcast pl0x D:
Just go to your Key Bindings and remap Smartcast Spell X to just be Q/W/E/R instead of Shift-Q/W/E/R. It's pretty damn useful for getting your combos off quickly, I smartcast most spells except ultimates and things like Morgana/Blitzcrank's Q. I also recommend smartcasting summoners like Ignite/Exhaust.
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On December 16 2011 02:27 TL Blazeraid wrote:
I'm still mystified how any pantheon is winning a lane vs one of the tankier tops especially if nasus is opening cloth.
How are you not completely buttfucked on mana by the time he's burned his pots?
Can anyone direct me to a vod of this happening?
I explained dblade vs. cloth last page. If you're running out of mana, you're doing it wrong.
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Canada5009 Posts
So what opening do you recommend against Pantheon, if not Cloth+5?
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On December 16 2011 03:47 Alzadar wrote:
So what opening do you recommend against Pantheon, if not Cloth+5?
it's character dependent. Cloth + 5 is your best bet most of the time tbh, but that doesn't mean that dblade isn't still stronger than it if played right.
I think Kennen with boots is a good pick vs. Pantheon.
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On December 16 2011 03:47 Alzadar wrote:
So what opening do you recommend against Pantheon, if not Cloth+5?
armor runes+cloth5 is your best bet. A good pantheon will still be able to dick you really hard the early levels, but with the right champ you should be okay and be able to at least equalize the lane eventually. Like I hate playing against Irelia as Panth because as soon as Irelia gets Wriggles I can't do jack to her and it becomes a farmfest, which is bad for Panth.
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EPT
