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i don't think that's the case
if panth leaves to stomp other lanes, nasus is free to farm
so panth kind of HAS to stay and babysit nasus, lessening his effect on other lanes. and even then it's just like a timebomb, you hammer him all day but eventually he's gonna get that farm and blow your team up
i dunno what to say. i know this is anecdotal but i've definitely seen this happen. it's just extremely hard to get kills against a safe, smart player with teleport. and panth relies on those kills. a good player knows a wave or two of CS won't lose the game in a nasus v panth matchup. like i said, a good panth will stomp a good nasus in solo queue, but a great nasus that REALLY wants to play smart and win, will not die to a great panth.
i should also put an addendum that early ganks will help decide this lane too. wither is one of the best gank-assisting skills in the game and panth has no escapes... but likewise panth has enough burst to kill anyone with a little help and nasus has no escapes...
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So how is nasus supposed to farm after the first spirit fire pushes the creep wave to the middle of the lane and pantheon just does pantheon shit and poops on nasus head without having to worry about a turret?
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On December 15 2011 06:00 Two_DoWn wrote:
So how is nasus supposed to farm after the first spirit fire pushes the creep wave to the middle of the lane and pantheon just does pantheon shit and poops on nasus head without having to worry about a turret?
he doesn't farm, and he doesn't push the first wave. he just last hits and heals up with pots. when panth starts doing too much damage he backs off, lets the lane push to his tower, spirit fires to hold it in a safe position, uses teleport when necessary, etc. nasus should never push the lane against panth obviously. he wants the lane open for ganks against panth, not the other way around
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On December 15 2011 05:59 gtrsrs wrote:
i don't think that's the case
if panth leaves to stomp other lanes, nasus is free to farm
so panth kind of HAS to stay and babysit nasus, lessening his effect on other lanes. and even then it's just like a timebomb, you hammer him all day but eventually he's gonna get that farm and blow your team up
i dunno what to say. i know this is anecdotal but i've definitely seen this happen. it's just extremely hard to get kills against a safe, smart player with teleport. and panth relies on those kills. a good player knows a wave or two of CS won't lose the game in a nasus v panth matchup. like i said, a good panth will stomp a good nasus in solo queue, but a great nasus that REALLY wants to play smart and win, will not die to a great panth.
i should also put an addendum that early ganks will help decide this lane too. wither is one of the best gank-assisting skills in the game and panth has no escapes... but likewise panth has enough burst to kill anyone with a little help and nasus has no escapes...
stop the presses, are you seriously trying to talk down to me about my experiences in the matchup and skill level? captain thank-god-they-lowered-the-bar-to-1520-so-that-I-can-get-Victorious-Jarman is talking to me, Smash fucking Gizmo, about how at a level higher than mine, Nasus will beat Pantheon's ass. please, give me a fucking break. when great players play, they're content making the game a 4v5 by babysitting Nasus and making sure he stays underfarmed and underleveled rather than derping around and ganking with Pantheon ult and letting a character with better scaling back into the game.
Sure, if Nasus's team is crushing Pantheon's team, Nasus will get the oppurtunity to get back into the game, but assuming the game isn't a steamroll anyway, I see no reason to ever pull my dick out of Nasus's mouth, so I just don't. I keep facefucking him, over and over and over again.
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Well, I think the argument here is that Guitar is saying that nasus can not die when playing against pantheon, yet still be a viable pick because he eventually becomes useful, not that he beats pants in lane.
Personally, I feel the point is moot. Not dying to pantheon but sacrificing your farm in the process is essentially a pantheon win. His job is to take someone out of the game. If you do it voluntarily, well, you just did his job for him. I mean, even not dying as nasus doesnt mean anything because pantheon can just free farm his facefuck items off the minions, not have to worry about making you sacrifice your own farm because you do it for him, then he can end the game before nasus catches up (which is really what pantheon is all about- no one can say with a straight face that he is an asset to the team past 30 minutes).
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... i can, i think a lot of ppl overestimate how much he falls off late game. Yes, he does fall off, but you can't say that it becomes a 4v5 late game. Not to mention, he has an incredible split push presence, and can just force 5v4 fights all day, or else he just takes towers.
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a smart team can do the following
nasus with armor runes, cloth + 5 pots top
aggressive, early-ganking jungler ala noc, pirate, skarner, udyr, w/e
solid, hard-to-gank mid, ala karthus, kennen, vladimir
jungler babysits nasus top against pantheon. every 1.5 minutes you have skarner charging into your lane wreaking bloody hell on you. pantheon has 2 choices: play less aggressively, giving up his edge, or be killed by continuous ganks (or be forced back by continuous ganks).
enemy jungler has 2 options: counter-babysit nasus. you now have 2 people dedicated to shutting down 1, and 1 of yours is worthless past 20 minutes, OR exclusively gank other lanes (which is a hard thing against kennen etc) and let nasus farm with the help of his jungler.
neither of those are optimal for pantheon.
you don't need to flame and pull out your e-peen. am i saying nasus beats pantheon and you're a shit player? no, none of the above. am i saying that pantheon can crush nasus if nasus doesn't play the lane right? absolutely. but rhavanna asked for things you can do against pantheon, and this is definitely one of them. i've seen it done, i've done it myself, and i know that it's (tough, but) possible
that's about all i have to say on this topic, you can take your rage elsewhere
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On December 15 2011 06:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
Well, I think the argument here is that Guitar is saying that nasus can not die when playing against pantheon, yet still be a viable pick because he eventually becomes useful, not that he beats pants in lane.
Personally, I feel the point is moot. Not dying to pantheon but sacrificing your farm in the process is essentially a pantheon win. His job is to take someone out of the game. If you do it voluntarily, well, you just did his job for him. I mean, even not dying as nasus doesnt mean anything because pantheon can just free farm his facefuck items off the minions, not have to worry about making you sacrifice your own farm because you do it for him, then he can end the game before nasus catches up (which is really what pantheon is all about- no one can say with a straight face that he is an asset to the team past 30 minutes).
Pantheon's wall is closer to 40 minutes than 30 tbh.
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On December 15 2011 06:21 gtrsrs wrote:
a smart team can do the following
nasus with armor runes, cloth + 5 pots top
aggressive, early-ganking jungler ala noc, pirate, skarner, udyr, w/e
solid, hard-to-gank mid, ala karthus, kennen, vladimir
jungler babysits nasus top against pantheon. every 1.5 minutes you have skarner charging into your lane wreaking bloody hell on you. pantheon has 2 choices: play less aggressively, giving up his edge, or be killed by continuous ganks (or be forced back by continuous ganks).
enemy jungler has 2 options: counter-babysit nasus. you now have 2 people dedicated to shutting down 1, and 1 of yours is worthless past 20 minutes, OR exclusively gank other lanes (which is a hard thing against kennen etc) and let nasus farm with the help of his jungler.
neither of those are optimal for pantheon.
you don't need to flame and pull out your e-peen. am i saying nasus beats pantheon and you're a shit player? no, none of the above. am i saying that pantheon can crush nasus if nasus doesn't play the lane right? absolutely. but rhavanna asked for things you can do against pantheon, and this is definitely one of them. i've seen it done, i've done it myself, and i know that it's (tough, but) possible
that's about all i have to say on this topic, you can take your rage elsewhere
look, you want to have this discussion, I'm happy to have it with you. If you made this post to begin with there would be no problem whatsoever. but you don't get to say shit like, "oh well, a great Pantheon vs. a great Nasus is different" to me. you haven't earned that. Loci wants to tell me that, sure, I'll listen. Maknoon wants to tell me that, sure, I'll listen. but you have to earn that shit and you haven't, so w/e, I don't regret anything I said. I've played this game too damn much and gotten too damn good to tolerate disrespectful bullshit about Pantheon of all characters.
if Pantheon's jungler camps the lane along with Nasus's jungler, team Pantheon isn't dedicating 2 people to shutting down 1, they're dedicating 2 people to shutting down 2 (remember, Nasus's jungle has to camp the lane to even force Pantheon's jungler to do the same). it doesn't matter if they pick option 1 or 2, both are viable depending on the opposing team and Pantheon is buying his team those options. dragging a jungler into a matchup as an integral part of how it has to play out so that you don't get murdered is an indication in and of itself that it's a disadvantageous matchup.
so sure, Nasus can 2v1 with a friend and beat Pantheon, but if that's your plan for making this counter work, you might as well pick Irelia who can deal with the 1v1 a hell of a lot sooner and scales almost as well to lategame.
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no smash you don't understand you are just pulling out your e-peen and flaming, you see gtr has done this before and IT WORKS so ha!
(lolololololololol)
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
the ironic part is that guitar has one of the biggest egos on this board
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 15 2011 05:18 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:06 Haemonculus wrote:
So what are some matchups that panth just plain loses? Enemy firstpicks pantheon, who do we send top to make him sad panda? they've all gone out of style. I would pick solo Malphite, Alistar, or Galio and just play stupidly passive.
Although it's not a direct lane counter, I remember Loci would always shit his pants when he went Panth and the enemy team picked up Janna
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my post wasn't intended to be disrespectful smash
You are a great panth but you aren't the end all be all, you need to have a more open mind. Kills are hard to come by in arranged play especially the higher level you get to
A champ that relies on (repeatably) killing his lane opponent to get ahead is going to be focused by enemy jungler. It's that simple
I've made the concession multiple times here that solo queue is different and yes panth is gonna see more success there
I don't even want to get into the respect argument with you here, that's so offtopic and completely unrelated
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On December 15 2011 09:20 gtrsrs wrote:
my post wasn't intended to be disrespectful smash
You are a great panth but you aren't the end all be all, you need to have a more open mind. Kills are hard to come by in arranged play especially the higher level you get to
A champ that relies on (repeatably) killing his lane opponent to get ahead is going to be focused by enemy jungler. It's that simple
I've made the concession multiple times here that solo queue is different and yes panth is gonna see more success there
I don't even want to get into the respect argument with you here, that's so offtopic and completely unrelated
It was disrespectful, straight up, and you're spouting really stupid shit in a really arrogant way, so I'm taking you down a notch, suck it up and deal with it. I'm not the end all be all, but I know more than enough to know pantheon rapes nasus 6 ways from sunday. and the fact that you think Pantheon needs to repeatedly kill his opponent makes me think a hell of a lot less of your opinion.
and shit you're talking about solo vs. arranged like somehow it's more viable to camp top in arranged than solo. are you kidding me? any team worth anything is going to punish you camping top by taking uncontested dragons, while a solo queue jungler will just derp around farming small camps while Pantheon has to 1v2. if your pick vs. Pantheon is Nasus, you're hamstringing yourself. it's a stupid pick, period.
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Absolutely none of my posts were arrogant or stupid. I've raised valid points in a calm respectful way and you and your cronies are just yelling at me mocking me and bashing me for no reason. Just because you've never been to china doesn't mean it doesn't exist, gizbro. Likewise, just because you can beat nasus every time doesn't mean my suggestions are wrong. But please, keep raving. I neverthought of all the dunderheads that post here you would reach this level of craziness. Much respect lost bro
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On December 15 2011 14:50 gtrsrs wrote:
Absolutely none of my posts were arrogant or stupid. I've raised valid points in a calm respectful way and you and your cronies are just yelling at me mocking me and bashing me for no reason. Just because you've never been to china doesn't mean it doesn't exist, gizbro. Likewise, just because you can beat nasus every time doesn't mean my suggestions are wrong. But please, keep raving. I neverthought of all the dunderheads that post here you would reach this level of craziness. Much respect lost bro
Generally its a bad idea to claim you aren't being arrogant by calling the rest of us retards.
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he's just telling one of TL's most consistently high rated players who has been known for playing Pantheon how a good matchup isn't actually a good matchup when great players play it. he wasn't calling anyone retards, he was just saying stupid stuff with such conviction. and god, all he had to do was say "in my experience, Nasus can play passive and not die and I think that's good enough" and I would've been fine having a civil discussion, but jesus tittyfucking christ he had to start talking about "great players" vs. "good players."
w/e, should just be dropped, I'm sure I'll live just fine without gtrsrs's respect and there's nothing productive that can come from this anymore. I've explained why the matchup sucks for Nasus and guitar disagrees for bad reasons, it's an impasse and should just be left there.
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On December 15 2011 15:41 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 14:50 gtrsrs wrote:
Absolutely none of my posts were arrogant or stupid. I've raised valid points in a calm respectful way and you and your cronies are just yelling at me mocking me and bashing me for no reason. Just because you've never been to china doesn't mean it doesn't exist, gizbro. Likewise, just because you can beat nasus every time doesn't mean my suggestions are wrong. But please, keep raving. I neverthought of all the dunderheads that post here you would reach this level of craziness. Much respect lost bro Generally its a bad idea to claim you aren't being arrogant by calling the rest of us retards.
please quote where i said anything like that?
oh wait just two_downs making stuff up as usual
On December 15 2011 15:47 Mogwai wrote:
he's just telling one of TL's most consistently high rated players who has been known for playing Pantheon how a good matchup isn't actually a good matchup when great players play it. he wasn't calling anyone retards, he was just saying stupid stuff with such conviction. and god, all he had to do was say "in my experience, Nasus can play passive and not die and I think that's good enough" and I would've been fine having a civil discussion, but jesus tittyfucking christ he had to start talking about "great players" vs. "good players."
w/e, should just be dropped, I'm sure I'll live just fine without gtrsrs's respect and there's nothing productive that can come from this anymore. I've explained why the matchup sucks for Nasus and guitar disagrees for bad reasons, it's an impasse and should just be left there.
your post reminds me of that one tournament game where CLG took that one champ and TSM took a champ that counters him and CLG got stomped. nope, no it doesn't, because in high level play, teams don't play super stupidly aggressive, teams don't bank on early-game champs, teams protect their lategame assets, etc etc etc
i didn't mean to insinuate that you weren't a great player. my whole point was that as you get to higher skill levels (hence the comparison from good to great, where great is clearly better), it gets harder and harder to kill anyone in lane, because people are better at judging when they'll die and preventing that. YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS.
"winning a lane" is different for every champ. for singed, winning a lane is taking a tower or 10 by the 20 minute mark. for caitlyn, winning a lane is getting more CS than the enemy ranged carry and dicking their early game a bit. for pantheon, winning a lane is completely shutting another person out of the game. for nasus, winning a lane is just surviving to a point where he gets 1 or 2 items and can freefarm his big items from there (IMO). the ENTIRE reason i listed nasus as a "counter" to panth is that a good nasus can just survive til lategame and have more of an impact. look at panth's skills v nasus's skills. panth has 3 skills that do high damage and need damage items to fuel them. nasus has 0 skills that need items to fuel them. wither doesn't scale on anything. spirit fire will always reduce the same amount of armor no matter how much of your triforce you have built. his ult will give him a flat X00 HP even if you shut him down early. in MY eyes, nasus is a great teamfighter even without a superior build. the fact that he can also build pure tank and probably have more of a lategame impact than a fully squishy/offensive pantheon TO ME means that nasus is a "counter"
sorry that i didn't go that far in depth in my original post. i can extrapolate on why i think the other champs i listed do well too, if you want. then two_downs can accuse me of insulting your skill, dnastyx can act like a 14 year old, and you can get insulted for no reason, all over again!
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United States47024 Posts
Looking at this from a neutral perspective, I don't see Nasus as a counter to Pantheon. But I don't see Pantheon as a counter to Nasus either. And I think you guys are arguing over nothing.
Nasus has a viable game-plan against Pantheon. That's fairly obvious. Try to stick around in lane and eventually get to farm your shit (either when Pantheon leaves to do other shit, or with some amount of babysitting). Outscale the fuck out of Pantheon lategame as a hard melee carry (in other words, Nasus' game-plan against basically everyone).
Pantheon also has a viable game-plan against Nasus. Facefuck him in lane. Deny him CS, and kill him if possible. Get free-farm. Then when you are ready, go make shit happen around the map and end the game before Nasus has a chance to recover and farm up to his invincible melee-carry status.
These are both stable strategies. One of them doesn't inherently "counter" the other. One is focused on dragging out the game into a lategame carry scenario, while the other is looking at an aggressive gank->push strategy that wants to end the game early. The success of either strategy is dependent on how its supported by the other 4 members of each team, both in terms of how well they play, and how well the picks support the general strategy. How good is Nasus' team at stalling and holding onto shit? How good is Pantheon's team at taking objectives? How strong is the initiation/counter-initiation involved? Pantheon can shit on Nasus all he wants, but if his team doesn't have the means to take objectives, then it's rough turning your lane advantage into a win before Nasus eventually gets to farm his shit. Likewise, Nasus can farm all he wants, but if his team can't stall towers/inhibs/Baron until he gets big, it's not going to accomplish anything.
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EPT
