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On April 10 2013 03:38 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 03:01 sylverfyre wrote:
Why magic pen instead of hybrid pen?
Also, it doesn't seem like there's anything stopping you from getting "Team-friendly" tanky jungle items like Locket or Aegis (which both also convienently add to your health regen) instead of "selfish" ones like Warmogs. Mundo's percent selfheals from passive and ulti are just as good with resists as they are with flat health bonuses, and with the Warmog nerf there isn't a compelling reason to me to get it. (Kindlegems op on mundo, locket visage ftw?) Mundos ult heals based on max health, so i figure getting the most health items would be good? Also top Mundo is hilariously OP, you guys should give it a try.
Common misconception about mundo ult (sylverfyre had it right): it scales just as well off resists as hp.
Seconded - top Mundo is awesome. Even in lanes that hard counter you, you can still farm and poke decently with cleavers, Kennen-style, and gank-assisting is super easy.
Also, the reason to get selfish items on Mundo is because Mundo scales so well off of just being fat. It's almost AD carry level multiplicativity.
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You're being overly simplistic if you say "it scales just as well".
Compared to any champ with flat heals, a %hp heal/regen makes HP more cost-effective. Typical item cost-effectiveness estimates are done for champions with flat heal/regen values, or values that scale with statistics other than HP. His %hp regen makes HP a more cost-effective choice than it would be if it were a flat hp5 stat.
See also http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15334795
So yeah, it's not just a "common misconception", you're being too simplistic. You can't say "it scales just as well" if you completely ignore the constant factors; that's just meaningless in practice.
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You're completely right, but backwards in a sense - resists are more cost-efficient for champions with shields or flat heals. Again, you're entirely correct that compared to most tanks Mundo should buy more HP. The reason I bring this up, though, is that if you're looking at the stats of the items, Mundo doesn't value health over resists; only if you're comparing what Mundo would buy to what a champion with a shield or flat heal would buy.
TL;DR: mundo buy more health than most champs because those champs prioritize resists, not because mundo prioritize health
(Actually, Mundo does slightly prefer health to resists because of the flat hp costs on his skills, but that's not what I want to emphasize with this post.)
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On April 11 2013 02:35 bmn wrote:You're being overly simplistic if you say "it scales just as well". Compared to any champ with flat heals, a %hp heal/regen makes HP more cost-effective. Typical item cost-effectiveness estimates are done for champions with flat heal/regen values, or values that scale with statistics other than HP. His %hp regen makes HP a more cost-effective choice than it would be if it were a flat hp5 stat. See also http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15334795So yeah, it's not just a "common misconception", you're being too simplistic. You can't say "it scales just as well" if you completely ignore the constant factors; that's just meaningless in practice.
Compared to a champion with NO HEALS OR SHIELDS AT ALL, HP is just as cost effective as resists.
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On April 11 2013 02:35 bmn wrote:You're being overly simplistic if you say "it scales just as well". Compared to any champ with flat heals, a %hp heal/regen makes HP more cost-effective. Typical item cost-effectiveness estimates are done for champions with flat heal/regen values, or values that scale with statistics other than HP. His %hp regen makes HP a more cost-effective choice than it would be if it were a flat hp5 stat. See also http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15334795So yeah, it's not just a "common misconception", you're being too simplistic. You can't say "it scales just as well" if you completely ignore the constant factors; that's just meaningless in practice.
He's not overly simplistic when he says his ult scales just as well with hp as it does with resists. It's just plain right, and not arguable.
Cost efficiency and what works best with his whole kit is another matter.
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On April 11 2013 04:02 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 02:35 bmn wrote:You're being overly simplistic if you say "it scales just as well". Compared to any champ with flat heals, a %hp heal/regen makes HP more cost-effective. Typical item cost-effectiveness estimates are done for champions with flat heal/regen values, or values that scale with statistics other than HP. His %hp regen makes HP a more cost-effective choice than it would be if it were a flat hp5 stat. See also http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15334795So yeah, it's not just a "common misconception", you're being too simplistic. You can't say "it scales just as well" if you completely ignore the constant factors; that's just meaningless in practice. He's not overly simplistic when he says his ult scales just as well with hp as it does with resists. It's just plain right, and not arguable. Cost efficiency and what works best with his whole kit is another matter.
The only thing in his kit that makes you inclined to build health over resists at all, is the fact that he spends health on abilities. His passive %MHP regen, and his Ulti %MHP regen, and the desire to be a raid boss in general, have no bearing on prioritizing health or resists more.
I'd still go Locket/Aegis as jungle Mundo rather than Warmogs. You get a good balance of resists and health, and even some regen to offset your ability costs. Selfish itemization on any "tank" (bruiser, tanky, whatever) just doesn't make a lot of sense to me (I go locket on most top laners as well.) Except maybe sunfire. Existence mundo, who kills you because he exists, is pretty legit.
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Just buy the damn warmogs if you want to maximize your EHP. Disregarding everything else, the fact that you're going to be ignited anytime you actually get locked down means that flat HP lets you live longer than resists, not to mention the fact that most resist items suck compared to warmogs for EHP especially over a 10-20 second fight and his spells costs flat HP. Seems like a no-brainer on mundo unless you want utility, but with mundo his utility comes from the fact that he will eat your face unless you kill him fast.
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Disclaimer: I'd really like someone to check my work, the following may be incorrect!
While it may be a bit counter intuitive, it's actually better to buy resists on Mundo than HP.
Even though it's a percentage heal, you still benefit a lot more from resists than max HP. I developed two Excel files to try to solve the problem (well, one I already made, I included download links at the bottom).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uMwrmIg.jpg)
*note that the price of armor and mr on the left is actually 18.
The left doesn't take into account regen, while the right is for a level 16 Dr. Mundo with ult. All info taken from http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Dr._Mundo.
Some assumptions:
-damage taken is constant over time (DMG = DOT*t)
-base MR and AR were excluded
-no penetrations taken into account
-no healing debuffs taken into account
-full health when damage is taken
-damage from abilities not taken into account
-taken over 12s (the time of Mundo's ult)
-only Armor, MR and health are used, doesn't take into account passives or completed items or anything else
So first off, if a hypothetical 2000 physical and 2000 magic damage are applied, the minimum total cost of items to not die with no regen is 3809. With Dr. Mundo's ult this value is reduced to 1071. It might be interesting to say that under the given conditions, Mundo's ult is worth almost 2000 gold.
Second, the most cost efficient way to not die is to actually purchase no health at all with Mundo! (I'm not 100% sure on this point, to prove this different combinations/scenarios can be tested if you download the file, I don't want to post a whole bunch of pictures though. From what I've tried it's true though, I don't have as much time as I'd like to test it further though:/ ).
Some quick thoughts:
-Mundo's abilities cost flat health, will skew in favour of buying health
-penetrations and base MR/AR values could change (although would likely skew analysis in favour of MR/AR)
-burst damage isn't taken into account, would skew in favour of buying health (need to not die right away!)
-healing debuffs not taken into account (ignite, grievous wounds, ect.), skew in favour of buying AR/MR (ignite is more difficult to say, have to weigh true damage vs damage done in healing reduction)
-done for just level 16, at lower levels things could change (esp need health to use abilities)
-doesn't take into account the utility of certain items (esp Spirit Visage), but would generally skew into the favour of MR/AR (since they generally provide more utility than health items)
-more...?
Obviously this is very idealized, but I think it's interesting to note that health is highly overrated on Mundo (ie, he got stealth nerf from season 3 patch, when cheaper HP was thought to be a buff on Mundo).
Anyhow, that's my analysis on the the subject. Again, I'm not sure if it's actually right so it'd be great if someone could check it over.
For the files you're going to need to get the Excel solver (if it's not already installed, just google it) and set up as depicted below (if it doesn't save the settings).
Mundo File: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-0kND-xCpavZDJoa2x0VVNBZ1k/edit?usp=sharing
Other File: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-0kND-xCpavazBVNktkZDBpSEU/edit?usp=sharing
+ Show Spoiler [Solver Settings] +
EDIT:
I think it's safe to say that Warmogs IS NOT core on Mundo, and possibly even a bad item to get. It's interesting to note that you'd probably be much better off going locket+aegis, then getting randuins+other stuff.
EDIT2:
Ok, so after a bit more analysis I've come to a few more conclusions.
1) As total damage increases relative to base health, building health becomes more valuable
2) If physical damage is relatively equal to magic damage, and both are high relative to base health, building health becomes more valuable
So with that in mind, building health is a lot more valuable than I thought after my first analysis (as our intuition tells us). However, with my previous analysis in mind as well, I think warmogs should, and can, be left as a 5th or 6th item (especially since it offers no utility).
I think the best build would be: locket->sv/aegis/randuins->warmogs/other stuff
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There is also a not insignificant amount of %hp damage out there that is resistable: kogmaw spit, mummy tears, liandry's burn, slime whack, and so on. Building hp doesn't protect you against this but resists does.
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How do you guys make Mundo useful as quickly as possible? His ganks suck, his jungle health before lv6 sucks, and seems more gold dependent than all the other junglers.
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On April 11 2013 08:50 imBLIND wrote:
How do you guys make Mundo useful as quickly as possible? His ganks suck, his jungle health before lv6 sucks, and seems more gold dependent than all the other junglers.
you farm
you come out of jungle only when you are certain you can get a successful gank off, or when your laner really needs pressure relieved.
That's about it.
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On April 11 2013 06:25 emperorchampion wrote:+ Show Spoiler [lots of math] +Disclaimer: I'd really like someone to check my work, the following may be incorrect!While it may be a bit counter intuitive, it's actually better to buy resists on Mundo than HP. Even though it's a percentage heal, you still benefit a lot more from resists than max HP. I developed two Excel files to try to solve the problem (well, one I already made, I included download links at the bottom). *note that the price of armor and mr on the left is actually 18. The left doesn't take into account regen, while the right is for a level 16 Dr. Mundo with ult. All info taken from http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Dr._Mundo. Some assumptions: -damage taken is constant over time (DMG = DOT*t) -base MR and AR were excluded -no penetrations taken into account -no healing debuffs taken into account -full health when damage is taken -damage from abilities not taken into account -taken over 12s (the time of Mundo's ult) -only Armor, MR and health are used, doesn't take into account passives or completed items or anything else So first off, if a hypothetical 2000 physical and 2000 magic damage are applied, the minimum total cost of items to not die with no regen is 3809. With Dr. Mundo's ult this value is reduced to 1071. It might be interesting to say that under the given conditions, Mundo's ult is worth almost 2000 gold. Second, the most cost efficient way to not die is to actually purchase no health at all with Mundo! (I'm not 100% sure on this point, to prove this different combinations/scenarios can be tested if you download the file, I don't want to post a whole bunch of pictures though. From what I've tried it's true though, I don't have as much time as I'd like to test it further though:/ ). Some quick thoughts: -Mundo's abilities cost flat health, will skew in favour of buying health -penetrations and base MR/AR values could change (although would likely skew analysis in favour of MR/AR) -burst damage isn't taken into account, would skew in favour of buying health (need to not die right away!) -healing debuffs not taken into account (ignite, grievous wounds, ect.), skew in favour of buying AR/MR (ignite is more difficult to say, have to weigh true damage vs damage done in healing reduction) -done for just level 16, at lower levels things could change (esp need health to use abilities) -doesn't take into account the utility of certain items (esp Spirit Visage), but would generally skew into the favour of MR/AR (since they generally provide more utility than health items) -more...? Obviously this is very idealized, but I think it's interesting to note that health is highly overrated on Mundo (ie, he got stealth nerf from season 3 patch, when cheaper HP was thought to be a buff on Mundo). Anyhow, that's my analysis on the the subject. Again, I'm not sure if it's actually right so it'd be great if someone could check it over. For the files you're going to need to get the Excel solver (if it's not already installed, just google it) and set up as depicted below (if it doesn't save the settings). Mundo File: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-0kND-xCpavZDJoa2x0VVNBZ1k/edit?usp=sharingOther File: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-0kND-xCpavazBVNktkZDBpSEU/edit?usp=sharing+ Show Spoiler [Solver Settings] +EDIT: I think it's safe to say that Warmogs IS NOT core on Mundo, and possibly even a bad item to get. It's interesting to note that you'd probably be much better off going locket+aegis, then getting randuins+other stuff. EDIT2: Ok, so after a bit more analysis I've come to a few more conclusions. 1) As total damage increases relative to base health, building health becomes more valuable 2) If physical damage is relatively equal to magic damage, and both are high relative to base health, building health becomes more valuable So with that in mind, building health is a lot more valuable than I thought after my first analysis (as our intuition tells us). However, with my previous analysis in mind as well, I think warmogs should, and can, be left as a 5th or 6th item (especially since it offers no utility). I think the best build would be: locket->sv/aegis/randuins->warmogs/other stuff
The base values actually make a huge difference. In fact, Mundo's base health, armor and mr let him survive 4000 damage over 12 seconds, with no items. When I bumped that up to 10000 (still split evenly), Mundo was nearly able to survive with just runes and warmogs.
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Er, yeah, my previous comment was wrong. Mundo's %hp regen has no particular significance when it comes to cost-effectiveness of HP versus resists, sorry for that. Both regen % of effective HP, not sure what made me think otherwise.
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So been playing Mundo top recently, here are my thoughts:
Why Mundo Top:
-pretty stronk, scales really well, if you get some kills+farm you can reach unkillable level mid game
-carries really well (at low levels at least :p) if you get fed
-q,e, and w all help with lane control. q can farm from distance (somewhat), w gives aoe pushing power, e makes last hitting easy, especially under tower (1 tower shot+auto for ranged creeps)
-q+e auto trades quite well (unless you miss cleaver :/)
-assits ganks fairly well (if you can hit cleaver)
-smashes like a bau-five
-can use corporate mundo skin :p
Weaknesses
-no gap closer/ jump
-no hard cc
I've been running arpen marks, flat armour seals, flat mr glyphs, and ad quints (cause that's all I have :/). I think arpen or attack speed quints would be better since you have a ridiculous ad buff.
9/21/0 masteries, ghost/ignite
Q->E->W, then max Q->W->E
Build:
I've been starting cloth/5 or 9pot/2ward. I guess with the upcoming max 5pot changes regen/4pot/2ward might be the alternative (I've been able to get away with cloth/5 at low levels, but with no escape you probably need wards at a higher level).
kindlegem-> warden's mail/aegis/locket-> randuins/spirit visage/stinger-> zephyr/warmogs-> whatever else
Ok, so basically you don't want to pick up aegis cause it's not spectacular on Mundo like spirit visage is (sv + bulwark is probably going to be inefficient unless they are doing primarily magic damage), but get it if no one else is. Locket is fine on Mundo since you're getting a kindlegem anyhow, however if your support or jungler seem to be headed towards a locket I think it's better to skip it.
Get Randuins asap, it makes you extremely tanky, gives good teamfight utility, and god forbid you miss a cleaver 1v1 the active helps with chases. Randuins+spirit visage makes you a complete beast mid game.
Zephyr gives you everything you'd want in a non-defense item (minus arpen I suppose), get if you don't need additional defense and you need additional damage. Get Warmogs as your 5/6th item.
Tabis>Mercs imo, since I like to pick up a zephyr. Zerkers are also a legit option if you want to do more damage/ get fed early.
Thoughts???
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MY only thought is about armpen, i don't think its the ideal stat on him, i'd rather go for the mixed arm/magic pen reds or even magic pen runes, your main skills are magic damage so the extra touch with the mpen should really make a difference in lane.
For quints i actually think movespeed are quite good both in jungle and in lane, combining the stats with a cleaver, you should trade and close gaps really decently..
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On April 23 2013 04:33 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote:
MY only thought is about armpen, i don't think its the ideal stat on him, i'd rather go for the mixed arm/magic pen reds or even magic pen runes, your main skills are magic damage so the extra touch with the mpen should really make a difference in lane.
For quints i actually think movespeed are quite good both in jungle and in lane, combining the stats with a cleaver, you should trade and close gaps really decently..
Ooh right I forgot to talk about hybid pen, yeah they would probably be best, but they're super expensive :p
mpen possibly better as well, probably a lot better in lane, arpen is nice when you're hitting with 300+ad autos. I've found that you don't really need movement speed quints since I'm usually not traveling over long distances to engage like you would for a gank. Usually kills are off of a fairly short range cleaver, where you can run them down almost immediately (especially if you have ult up), so I don't think that ms quints would make a big difference. Mundo's weakness of having no gap closer (or escape) isn't so much that it's hard to engage (ghost, ult, randuins when you have it, work well), more so that it's difficult to get out of certain situations. Mundo is not nearly as safe as say Zed or Khaz, especially pre-6.
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The case for armor pen is that your E is one of the strongest steroids at early levels, and armor pen hugely multiplies that damage. In addition, champions have lower armor than magic resist early on, making armor pen comparatively stronger. However, particularly as the game progresses, more of Mundo's damage is shifted towards magic, and in several lanes you simply can't get close enough to fasesmash people.
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On April 11 2013 08:50 imBLIND wrote:
How do you guys make Mundo useful as quickly as possible? His ganks suck, his jungle health before lv6 sucks, and seems more gold dependent than all the other junglers.
I went to gold Elo in season 2 only with Mundo and Skarner.
If you said in that way, well every champions suck, rite? Mundo can gank well because his enemy doesnt know when he comes. He can kill first Red and gank top ASAP, or clear Blue+Red then make a more powerful gank because his Q can slow permanently with enough CDR. Mundo can choose Exhaust instead of Flash, it will make his gank more deadly, and counter some kind of burst damage. If I cannot gank, I may steal some jungle mobs, because his clearing speed is awesome.
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I'm only in Silver, but I'm considering just maining Mundo jungle now. People are pretty bad at wards, so ganking is still possible and half of the time I farm almost as well as the solos with his clear speed.
For skills, do people go W->E->Q or W->Q->E? (or I guess Q-E-w is possible depending on path)? I usually get W to 3 by level 5, then Q>E>W? Anyone have any thoughts?
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On April 24 2013 00:09 ShoreT wrote:
I'm only in Silver, but I'm considering just maining Mundo jungle now. People are pretty bad at wards, so ganking is still possible and half of the time I farm almost as well as the solos with his clear speed.
For skills, do people go W->E->Q or W->Q->E? (or I guess Q-E-w is possible depending on path)? I usually get W to 3 by level 5, then Q>E>W? Anyone have any thoughts?
If you dont have to learn Q at level 1 for invading, then W-Q-E-W-W-R, then Q>W>E.
Now people want to get level 3 ASAP for an early gank, so learning Q at level 2 is better (you hit Blue Golem with your Q, to check if he is alive, and drag him near you), then active W and Q Q Q. Stealing Red buff as Mundo is easy, especially at low Elo. If the enemy jungler are a slow one such as Amumu, I will start at Wraith - my red - his red - gank, then give blue buff to my teammate.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JdPpshK.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ESRiiDj.jpg)
