Why should I pick Mundo? Mundo is known for 3 things: his memetic quotes, his extremely fast jungle clear speed, and his near invincibility lategame. He tends to fit well in poke teams thanks to his high regeneration and Cleaver, and can serve as an excellent front-line tank or a reasonable peeler. He thrives in drawn-out fights and skirmishes, and tank-heavy teams in particular often have no way of dealing with him. Mundo was, for a while, the number 1 jungler due to insane clear speed and good dueling power. The jungle changes certainly hurt his jungle power, though, and now I think he's equally strong in jungle or top. He can also be played mid, but has a hard time against many mid champs.
Pre-game setup Runes: Armor pen reds Scaling health or flat armor yellows Magic resist blues Any of the above for quints
Summoner spells: Ghost is mandatory. It's much, much better than Flash on someone with no hard CC and no way of initiating other than running right at someone. Barrier is my preference for slot 2, and gives Mundo much-needed time for his ult to heal him.
Other options: Heal can be substituted as a more team-oriented summoner, but Mundo often is in the middle of the enemy team. Exhaust is good as a more aggressive option, and is better than Barrier in 1v1 situations if well-timed. Flash makes Mundo very hard to catch, and Distortion boots give ghost and flash an absurdly low cooldown. Suggested for solo pushing.
Mundo gets much more benefit out of the tank stats than anything else. None of the low-level utility stuff is really worth getting, but the offense tree has some goodies in it. 9/21/0 is alright. 21/9/0 works too if you just want to smash faces. The really important defensive masteries, in my opinion, are: Block/Unyielding: Flat damage reduction is invaluable early game. Block will reduce multi-duration ticks (*teemo*) and Unyielding will stop annoying ranged harass (*kennenteemo*). Of course, you still won't win... but you'll lose much more comfortably. Relentless: Mundo hates being slowed, and this is the only thing in the game that reduces the effectiveness of Ashe or red buff permaslow, Singed and Kog puddles, and other repeatedly reapplied slows. Tenacious: CC is the worst enemy of melee champs, and Mundo has no way to deal with it other than massive tenacity. Reinforced Armor: Crits are the main source of damage for physical attackers, and often the enemy ranged DPS will be the only person who can hurt you. For one point, this is a 10% reduction in most damage late game.
Build Order
On load screen you should be looking at the enemy team and figuring out what resists you need, and when. Does your lane opponent do only physical damage? An even phys/magic split? Mostly magic? How about their jungler? Against a normal team in the midgame you should be aiming for a balanced spread slightly slanted towards magic resist, and lategame you should prioritize armor.
Starting items: Cloth+ward+pots is the default start. Doran's Shield + pot is for dick lanes. Against ranged champs that you cannot beat (Kennen, Teemo) this is what you should run. The lack of a ward isn't a problem, as you will mostly be farming under tower. Boots+ward+pots is for lanes that a cloth armor is mostly useless against, such as Brand or Cass.
Aim for Ninja Tabi + Kindlegem on your first back. Against magic lanes go for Boots + Spectre's Cowl. You want to finish Tabi + Spirit Visage as soon as possible.
I recommend these items next: Randuin's Omen - Try to get this about when the enemy carry finishes IE+PD, or ASAP if they go BotRK. This is the best item in the game for tanking heavy autoattack DPS. Zephyr - This is THE DPS item for Mundo. The movespeed is incredible, the tenacity is vital, and attackspeed is mundo's main DPS stat. Aegis of the Legion - If no one else has it yet, this is a solid pick.
Situational: Warmog's Armor - If you have Randuin's + Spirit Visage and just want more tankiness, get this. Banshee's Veil - If you need more magic resist, this is your best choice. Also good for facetanking Ashe arrows and the like. Atma's Impaler - Only as a 6th item when you have Zephyr, but a solid choice then. Sword of the Divine - It's hilarious, but in general it's too hard to get next to squishy dudes without Zephyr. It has its place, though. Phantom Dancer - Better than Zephyr if you already have a tenacity item or if the enemy team is CC-light.
Lane matchups I don't often get the chance to play top, so take these with a grain of salt. Good lanes (you can farm comfortably while poking, and you can survive all-ins): Kayle Karthus Volibear Shyvana Garen
Bad lanes (you will not win, but you can poke/farm with cleavers): Maokai Gangplank Ryze Cassiopeia Singed Darius
Awful lanes (you will either be zoned or farming under tower): Kennen Teemo Swain Elise
Playstyle notes Mundo is great at split pushing and getting away, and rather weak in teamfights until mid to late game (when he has two or three tanky items at at least level 2 ult). Early on, focus on creating a diversion for your team by pushing top. Mundo also excels in poke wars, thanks to Infected Cleaver and his natural regeneration. If you must teamfight, draw it out as long as possible. Try to force the enemy team to fight you in many small jungle skirmishes, or set siege to their tower. Mundo also does a lot of damage to Dragon and Baron while tanking them admirably, so force objectives whenever possible.
In full-on teamfights, Mundo can either peel for his carries or dive the enemy. Diving is risky, as even full-build Mundo will drop to heavy focus, so make sure you have someone backing you up. Mundo's lack of hard CC is troublesome for peeling, but depending on the enemy, Cleaver can suffice. If Mundo survives the initial wave of burst and the enemy carry is down, he can often 1v3, or at least kite long enough that his ult comes back up.
Champs that threaten Mundo are: high-DPS carries (including caster-carries like Cassiopeia, Ryze, and Vladimir), fed burst casters (or just two bursty mages will usually do the job), and anyone with healing reduction, including mages with Morello's.
Ticks and Trips Mundo is just about as straightforward as it gets. Here are some small things that could improve your game.
Activate Burning Agony right before you get CC'd for minimal health drain.
When trading in lane, only fight for the duration of Masochism. Use its downtime to back off or chase.
Mundo has a fairly slow attackspeed, but a quick attack animation. You have plenty of time to move in between attacks; use it.
With maximum CDR, Cleaver's slow duration is slightly less than its cooldown time. Be prepared for the enemy to suddenly speed up right before you throw your follow-up.
Cleaver has a minimal health cost if it hits, but a hefty one if it misses. When possible, angle it so that it at least hits a creep.
Cleaver's damage gets lower and lower as the enemy's health gets lower and lower. Especially with low levels of cleaver, it becomes not worth harassing with it when the enemy is around 30% health.
Timing ult activation is hard - you want to hit it when you're as low as possible to minimize the cost, but not so low that you die before healing. This depends so heavily on every aspect of the game that there really isn't any general advice to give - but it's better to ult early than be late.
Runes Marks: Attack speed Seals: Flat armor Glyphs: Scaling magic resist or Flat armor Quintessences: Spell vamp or Flat armor
I run full aspd reds, rest armor, because that's the runepage I happen to have at the moment, and I haven't tested his jungle with the other pages. In particular I don't know how well spell vamp stacks up against armor quints. Scaling magic resist may be better than the armor gains from flat armor blues, but Mundo's early jungle can get him very low and it doesn't hurt to be safe.
Masteries Mundo masteries are very customizable, but a good starting page is 0/21/9
Summoner Spells I run Ghost Smite or very occasionally Cleanse Smite. I feel that Ghost is stronger for ganks than Flash, as well as more useful in teamfights. If you want to take Flash go ahead. Cleanse is useful in the occasional situations where you don't need ghost to gank and the enemy team has more stuns than you have hp.
Skill order Mundo's skills are all pretty comparable in power, so feel free to experiment. A reliable setup is WQEW, Q>E>W. In general, W clears wraiths and wolves. Q and E clear buffs and twin golems; Q is stronger for dragon and at least one rank is necessary for ganks, while E is stronger in skirmishes and weaker in ganks. Q also gains more from levels than E does.
Jungle routes, item builds, and ganking Mundo's speed and damage make him extremely flexible in the jungle. He clears camps quickly enough that he can counterjungle most slower junglers. At the same time, he often gets quite low, allowing a patient or coordinated team to counterjungle him. Here are some common routes: Wolves blue wraiths golems red gets you to 4 with double buff. Wolves (blue->mid) wraiths golems red only gets you to 3, but you only need to be level 3 to gank. Golems red lets you gank at level 2. If you're going to do this, I recommend starting QE. Enemy golems enemy red (optionally enemy wraiths) is a good start if you plan to counterjungle heavily, followed by either a gank or wolves (optionally feed blue to your mid) wraiths golems red.
This is the item build I would recommend for most situations: Machete + 5 pots start Boots Ninja Tabi Spirit Visage Warmogs Randuin's
Get Spirit Visage before Ninja Tabi if you're worried about magic damage. Randuin's can be replaced with a bunch of items, depending on your team, the enemy team, and how the game is going, but it's all around a solid pick for almost any situation. Good items after or instead of Randuin's are Aegis/Bulwark, Zeke's Herald, Phantom Dancer, Sword of the Divine, Ghostblade, and Locket.
Ganks are straightforward: Ghost in if necessary, hit your Q, turn on W, get in melee range, press E and start pummeling them. Counterjungling as Mundo is risky as always, but you chew through camps so fast that it's often worthwhile. If you have a chance to get some lane farm, take it, as you want to hit level 11 (and even more so level 16) as soon as possible.
You can easily take dragon with a bit of assistance at 6, so start looking for opportunities to gank bot around then and carry a pink with you. Baron also goes down pretty quick, so start forcing baron fights early.
In teamfights, poke with cleaver and hang around the sides. Unless you're really fed you can't charge into the middle of the fight and expect to survive. Try to bait spells out and absorb cc for your team; initiating as Mundo is mostly about posturing until you have a good opportunity to engage. Peel for your carry or dive theirs, as the situation warrants.
That's all. Mundo's pretty straightforward, and only depends on hitting cleavers and knowing how to jungle.
Runes Marks Armor Penetration or flat Attackspeed Seals Flat Armor, flat Health Regeneration, or flat Attackspeed Glyphs Flat or scaling Magic Resist, flat or scaling Cooldown Reduction, flat Attackspeed Quintessences Armor Penetration, flat Attackspeed, or Movespeed
Masteries Many pages work on Mundo. 21/0/9 (always do this in jungle) 1/14/15 0/21/9 11/11/8 or some other random setup
Masteries that Mundo especially likes are all the autoattack boosters, cooldown reduction, magic penetration (seriously), movespeed, -creepdamage, -damage, Toughness, experience and Greed.
Leveling Mundo's skills is a tricky matter.
Q is Mundo's only form of cc and ranged damage, wrapped into one, that also happens to have built in scaling. Leveling it up increases the damage and the health cost, but not the slow.
W reduces CC and does respectable damage in a small AoE around Mundo. Good for farming, chasing and baiting cc. Leveling it up increases the damage, cc reduction, and health cost.
E is an amazing steroid with almost 100% uptime and a low health cost. This is what makes Mundo scary early and late. Leveling it up increases the damage and health cost.
R is a movespeed boost and a heal over time that costs a percent of your CURRENT health to use. Leveling it up increases the heal and speed boost.
Obviously you want R at every opportunity. In lane, 99% of the time you want Q level 1. From there, you can max Q (the strongest choice, in my opinion). Q gives you brush control, stronger poke, more dragon/baron threat and better last hitting if you're being zoned. The health cost goes up, but not hugely (30-110, 15-55 if you hit every cleaver), so I often stop after 3 points and start maxing W. W first is a very specific thing. The previous problem with it was the huge health cost - 20 per second up to 40 at max level. Now that it's much lower, W can give you an edge in pushing and trades against enemy melees. E first was previously best for trades, but now (with everyone having armor runes and stupid fighting power) one point at level 2 and then Q>W>E seems best. All Mundo's skills are solid, however, so get what feels best to you and don't sweat it.
Mundo ward his own lane a lot, or else he forget! Has happened before! Where does Mundo go? Mundo is strongest solo top, where he can chase people down if necessary and has in general the most favorable matchups. Mundo solo mid has its merits - no one will see it coming and it is virtually impossible to gank Mundo. This is a solid defensive choice. Mundo also can help out in Dragon fights, and Cleaver hurts Dragon a lot. Mundo can work in a duo lane, but there are several problems - he eats a lot of damage going in or coming out, cleaver poke has a hard time keeping up with support healing, and Mundo desperately needs levels to stay relevant in teamfights. Mundo jungle is probably the best place now. With vamp scepter he can stay at near full life maxing E or clear stupidly fast maxing W. He has strong buff control, fast small camp clearing, and is a large dragon threat after 6. Of course, you are playing Mundo, so go where you please.
Solo lane Mundo Threaten people early. Cleaver is the second best brush control skill in the game after Orianna's BALLS. Camp brushes and wait for a chance to cleave them a new one.Against most champions, getting next to them at level 2 is equivalent to forcing them back. Feel free to blow your summoners, but be ready for them to flash away because flash is imbalanced. If you force a flash, try to get someone to gank your lane. If they go back, you go back. Mundo needs health to maintain his pressure.
Most nukers will quickly start outdamaging you around level 4 or 5. Hang back, farm with cleaver, and wait for a gank or level 6. From level 6 on, farm. If you can force the enemy back, go for it and heal up with ult. Keep farming until level 11, or even 16. You are virtually ungankable if your ultimate is up (and you aren't at 100 health or something).
Items Mundo, like any tanky DPS, has to balance offensive and defensive items. If you have a strong early game, do not hesitate to build Force of Atmog's (Warmog's Armor, Atma's Impaler, and Force of Nature in that order). Otherwise, grab a Spirit Visage to help you stay in lane longer, followed by Zeal or Recurve Bow. Build towards Randuin's if you need armor. Spirit Visage and MR runes should cover you in the magic department; if not, grab a Negatron Cloak and, if appropriate, turn it into Quicksilver Sash. If you want more damage, pick up Brutalizer and turn it into Youmuu's Ghostblade. Don't buy Berserker's Greaves. Ever. If their team is CC-light or full of autoattackers, get Ninja Tabi; otherwise get Mercury Treads. An ideal late-game Mundo will have something like Warmog's Armor, Atma's Impaler, Force of Nature, Mercury Treads, Phantom Dancer and Infinity Edge/Youmuu's Ghostblade. More likely is something like Spirit Visage, Randuin's Omen, Youmuu's Ghostblade, Mercury Treads, Zeal. Start chugging red and green pots if you think the game will be over soon.
DEEEEPZ Stark's Fervor A good buy if you're not the team's main AD carry. Mundo likes all the stats on it, so as long as someone else benefits from the aura go ahead. (New Zeke's looks like a truly GDLK item for Mundo, depending on price) Infinity Edge Lots and lots of damage. Don't buy this until you have some attackspeed. If you have an aspd item and can afford this (and don't need more tankiness) you've probably already won, however. Phantom Dancer Movepeed. Attackspeed. CRITSPEED. ALL THE SPEED MUNDO NEED. Ghostblade The poor man's Phantom Dancer. Gives you short term speed boost, attackspeed, crit, armor pen, and lovely lovely cdr. Situationally better. Wit's End This item is extremely cost-efficient... but if you have SV + Mercs you probably don't need more MR and the damage boost doesn't scale with Mundo's stupidly good innate steroid. Good for tankier builds. Black Cleaver For 1v1ing chumps. A great buy if you just wanna kill out of position scrubs. Trinity Force Expenisive and a lot of the stats are wasted. Mundo has enough spam to utilize the proc though. Frozen Mallet If chasing is what you need to do, turn your Atmogs into a Fratmogs.
Tankliness Warmog's Armor Still the recipe for the biggest fattest Mundo of them all. A bit hard to afford, however, since Mundo would really like to finish his Zeal and Spirit Visage first. Atmer's Impala Armor and more damage. Not so suprgrate on Mundo since he needs aspd though. Force of Nature MAD SYNERGY WITH MUNDO PASSIVE Randuin's Omen Great for 1v1ing dee pee ess, escaping ganks, and initiating. Probably my favorite armor item on Mundo. Soul Shroud Better choices exist for the CDR and the mana is obviously wasted. Not horrible if the rest of the team needs it though. NEW Locket Theorycrafting that this'll be good but not great.
I'd debate the duo lanes not working part. Cho/Mundo is a devastating lane since if you get hit by Rupture/Cleaver, you're getting hit by the other one as well. Mundo's durability comes from regeneration (passive and ultimate) and so Spirit Visage is basically mandatory on him. Personally, I rush it every game.
Mundo really strong in duo lane, he does insane damage at the cost of health which is fine if you are focusing someone especially under CC. You need a good CC vs ranged/support though. I raped with mundo/alistar.
Criticisms: Magic penetration marks I don't see any other choices. W and Q do the majority of his damage. I'm not sure about maxing E>W since the sheer DPS it does is insane, and you can use it while chasing down people, when chasing it does more damage than E, but again not totally sure. 100 magic damage persecond is an AWFUL lot of damage to be doing early on. 15% Magic penetration mastery seems like a no brainer, then 21 in defense IMO. Regen scales with being hard to kill, not with more regen.
I usually get warmogs first every game. It feels so much stronger on mundo who needs the health pool to spam his abilities while being unkillable early-midgame at things like dragon fights you just run to their carry ult and own them and no chance of you dying. Atmas, Starks, Phantom dancer all seem like good damage items for him. I tried wits end but it's not that good compared to FoN. Attack speed #1 for mundo damage though, that and magic penetration. IE debateable as last item vs squishies for the crit damage and % but it seems to me like any more than atmas+1 attack speed item is way overkill on mundo better just be unkillable. CDR good on mundo for his E and R uptime but I'm not sure how to get it yet.
You need like 30% CDR to have 100% uptime on E so perhaps cdr boots+spirit visage but maybe it's not worth it and just accept the 2 seconds of downtime it won't hurt that much haha.
I'm not a huge fan of Atma's on Mundo even though its the obvious choice. I feel like PD does more for Mundo because of his huge E steroid.
ArPen vs MPen is very debatable IMO. I think ArPen might be better for early game because if your opponent is smart they are going to be tough to cleaver.
Stacking magic pen from runes + sorc boots sounds pretty legit though. That thing would scale crazy good if Mundo were capable of getting any sort of magic pen elsewhere or from allies (ally -MR debuffs).
On August 12 2011 00:16 ShoreT wrote: I'm not a huge fan of Atma's on Mundo even though its the obvious choice. I feel like PD does more for Mundo because of his huge E steroid.
ArPen vs MPen is very debatable IMO. I think ArPen might be better for early game because if your opponent is smart they are going to be tough to cleaver.
And if they are tough to cleaver than you are zoning them so no worries there. If they are tough to cleaver and you aren't zoning them than you're doing it wrong and messed up pretty bad somewhere. This is assuming duo lane of course (where Mundo belongs IMO).
And I prefer 0/21/9 or 0/9/21 to 9/21/0 because the extra regen percentage from utility (you're entire goal is to be unkillable so you don't need the 10% reduced dead time) synergizes really well with your passive, ult, and itemization. Defense masteries allow you to stay alive longer while the utility masteries let you use summoners more often and give you extra movespeed.
For items, I prefer opening health crystal (more health = harder to kill + extra regen from your passive) and gets you the spirit visage faster, or bootsx3 for being an asshole (and shitting on people). You don't need Merc Treads because of Burning Agony so get MS3 or 'zerkers or spell pen. Lastly, build solid tank, you don't need damage items (except perhaps lategame atmas). Your cleaver hits for % health so it naturally scales into the late game while your steroid gives you enough damage to hurt people up close.
Items should be SV/FoN for MR and your other items should have health on them (funfire + Burning Agony and spell pen boots are entertaining). Thornmail is good against auto-attack champions because you take so much abuse anyways. Get a Guardian's Angel. Seriously. You continue to regen health during the revive animation so your passive, FoN, and your ult (if you die before it's duration expires) all continue to function while you're reviving so you stand back up with much more health than you should have (I've come back up with full health before).
The problem with duo lane Mundo (there are a few, but this is the huge one) is that Sadism level 1 is totally worthless in teamfights. It's basically a Ghost that costs 20% of your current health. Let's suppose you're level 10 with Spirit Visage and Giant's Belt. You have ~2000 hp, so you're healing 67 + 10 from SV health per second. That's enough to outregen a ranged carry with a bf sword in a 1v1 situation, barely, maybe, if you don't use any skills... It's certainly not going to help you in a teamfight where most of the damage is burst. The other reason duo Mundo is weak is the same reason most melee champs take solo top. Mundo has no safe way to get close to people, so he takes harass going in and coming out. If partnered with a disable (Cho'gath's rupture, in this example), he can avoid damage on the way in (if cho manages to get both of them). But he's still taking 2 people worth of damage, and he relies on outregenerating or outdamaging whoever he's against. Besides, if you want a winbotcombo get Irelia, Jarvan, or someone with an actual disable instead of Cleaver. Most of my Spirit Visage hate comes from remembering how good it used to be (12% cdr, 25% increased healing, and cheaper). It's better than I give it credit for, but it's not godlike requirement on Mundo. Mostly because you start running out of slots pretty fast if you get SV and QSS, and I would rather QSS than SV. Armor pen is better than magic pen. Not only are the runes themselves more cost efficient, but I would rather do 100% damage with autoattacks and 77% damage with Cleaver/Agony than 87% damage with autoattacks and 83% damage with Cleaver/Agony. Unless you want to use your quints for magic penetration, which is stupid. Perseverance sucks. Don't bother. Late game superfed only tank items 20000 EHP and you ult. You're regenerating over 1100 health per second. Perseverance will increase that by a whopping... 45. Per second. But if you happen to die somehow (1v5 gogo or something), respawning 7 seconds faster can save the game. Burning Agony hurts you too much. Sure, you get one and a half sunfire capes, but your enemy gets a sunfire cape that does true damage to you. It's simply not worth the health cost until you have quite a bit of health. (If you max it after cleaver, it's going to be draining about 5% of your health per second.) I'd rather be autoattacking for 150+ damage every 2 seconds (and taking less than 10 damage per second) than walking next to them for 100- every second and taking 40/sec. FoN is bad because if you can't outlast them without FoN it's extremely unlikely you can outlast them with it. If you really need speed get Zeal or Ghostblade or something. If you really need more magic resist than SV/Mercs get QSS. Opening health crystal is an absolutely terrible idea. It's 475 gold toward SV or warmogs, but you are going to lose lanes so hard. If you HAVE to buy something that's going to build into something, get Cloth Armor or Null Magic Mantle, which at least get you some health potions. ONE HEALTH POTION and you recover as much as a Ruby Crystal gives you. Your point about Mundo's passive is irrelevant because his passive sucks and Ruby Crystal adds 200*.03 = .6 health per second. That's right, you get an extra one and one half health per 5. Just buy Doran's Shield. The downside to Atma's is Mundo needs attackspeed not damage. However, Atmogs is such a godlike item combination right now that it's still worth getting. Sunfire Cape is crap right now. Don't buy it ever. Just get Giant's Belt and Chainmail and build something actually useful from them. Like Atmogs. Guardian Angel is a fantastic item on Mundo. But there are also a lot of other fantastic items on Mundo. The question is, is it better than Atmogs? Often yes. You need damage items because cleaver isn't going to do enough damage by itself and neither is Burning Agony. Full tank Mundo is pretty ignorable, not to mention kiteable.
I've ran into "MadMundoLover" once and he built starks for attackspeed. Never seen such a good mundo player before and I was never so terribly destroyed in lane with my lovely singed.
Also if you wanna try something funny: get singed and mundo (one soloing) + 2 strong cleanup champs and a fitting support (taric/blitz/alistar are recommended). Farm your lanes and then simultaneously splitpush top and bot with singed/mundo 24/7. When things get nasty for one of your tanks then call the cleanup commando. And if some opponents are down then let em take all buffs/dragons while singed and mundo stubbornly continue pushing and overextending like tards.
Perhaps it's the level I play at, but I've never lost a duo lane as Health Crystal First Mundo. Also, 200 * 0.3% = .6 health per second = 3 health per five, not one and a half. It's still not spectacular, but it's twice what you claim (and it does add up noticeably).
In lane, Mundo shouldn't be walking up to his opponents to auto attack them unless they are melee champions or he is going in for a kill (for the reasons you mentioned, but that's true for all melee champs without a closing ability, not just mundo) so he can harass with cleavers from outside their range.
Again, perhaps its the level I play mundo at, but from my experience what I said works.
You're right about the math, my bad. Doran's Shield, however, gives you 120 health, 10 armor and 8 hp/5 + 1.8 from passive. Also in lanes I am always going for a kill. Mundo's cleaver harass is not all that great, honestly. If you want damaging skillshot harass play Ezreal or something. Every time Mundo misses a cleaver, he's eating two autoattacks. Even if he hits a cleaver, that's one. That damage adds up noticeably. Duo lane Mundo can work, just like jungle, and if you wanted to be optimal you wouldn't play Mundo, so I guess whatever works for you. How do you handle teamfights and the midgame though?
Team fights I try to be up front and in their face as much as possible. You're right, pure tank mundo isn't the hugest of threats but you can close on a carry very quickly and really mess with their damage potential if the rest of their team ignores you. You're playing tanky so I don't care about their burst characters (I want them to hit me after all, then their shit is on cooldown when my squishies show up). I usually play with my brother who is on Cho'gath or some other beefy character when he isn't the carry. It's important to coordinate this kind of initiation with your team since if they don't follow you in then you die and it's a 4v5 which is never good.
My biggest goal in the midgame is to try and protect my carry for as long as possible by being in their face (ghost + ult + movespeed quints let you chase anyone down and get into position while cleavers pop BVs and the slow keeps their guys from positioning optimally). This is obviously a baiting tactic, since it relies on them hitting you over your carry, but your steroid, cleavers, and burning agony do enough damage in the mid game that ignoring you just allows you to really mess with their team.
Lastly, if they focus you, you're correct your ult will be mostly ineffectual, since there will be much more incoming damage than it can regen through, but it (and the summoner heal I run because it's actually not horrible on him, if not 100% ideal) will keep you alive for a couple more precious seconds that your carry and team needs to win the fight while you're tanking all or most of all the damage. If they don't focus you then you kill whatever and at the end of the fight the remaining stragglers on their team won't have the damage output to get past your regen from FoN, SV, and your ult so you can clean them up without a problem usually. Once again, ult and cleavers (you probably used ghost to get in there in the first place) let you chase someone down.
Once you get GA the game changes completely. You want to blow your ult immediately before you die so that you stand up from GA with full health again. As long as you have GA buff you want to be as bold as possible with your initiations (but not stupid, i.e. don't initiate 3v5 or something foolish) because you have the ability to absorb all their burst and cooldowns then just stand up again as if nothing happened in the first place.
Mundo doesn't fit well into many 5v5 compositions but he can be highly effective if played correctly. He or items he uses keep getting nerfed which sorta sucks but is also sorta awesome cause you rarely see him played anymore.
The biggest problem I see with mundo players is that they don't know how to maximize masochism and walk the tight rope between not playing aggro enough and losing efficient uptime, and playing too aggro and getting countered too easily.
I have not run into a single character that can challenge full mundo build 1on1, and i've gone up against all the absurd carries when they are fed.
Mundo is very mobile and because he is so good at 1on1 later in the game, he can really protect your map control well and prevent backdoors.
I can tell reading a lot of these posts that no one has a full grasp on how to itemize and spec mundo efficiently, but I am not going to give away any secrets
And duo lane mundo is fine, just like every other character it just depends who you are playing with. Me and my friend are undefeated when we roll with teemo/mundo bot lane.
On August 16 2011 19:31 robertdinh wrote: Mundo doesn't fit well into many 5v5 compositions but he can be highly effective if played correctly. He or items he uses keep getting nerfed which sorta sucks but is also sorta awesome cause you rarely see him played anymore.
The biggest problem I see with mundo players is that they don't know how to maximize masochism and walk the tight rope between not playing aggro enough and losing efficient uptime, and playing too aggro and getting countered too easily.
I have not run into a single character that can challenge full mundo build 1on1, and i've gone up against all the absurd carries when they are fed.
Mundo is very mobile and because he is so good at 1on1 later in the game, he can really protect your map control well and prevent backdoors.
I can tell reading a lot of these posts that no one has a full grasp on how to itemize and spec mundo efficiently, but I am not going to give away any secrets
And duo lane mundo is fine, just like every other character it just depends who you are playing with. Me and my friend are undefeated when we roll with teemo/mundo bot lane.
I demand a penischeck! Reveal yourself, summoner!
Couple people who can 1v1 full Mundo build: Vayne Jax Nasus Mundo can just run away from Jax and Nasus most of the time, but Vayne is the stupidest champion in the game right now. Even stupider than Poppy.
I would go so far as to say Mundo doesn't fit well into ANY 5s composition, simply because there's always a better pick. There are few situations I wouldn't rather have Singed, for instance. Also, I have a suspicion that your Teemo Mundo hasn't bumped up against many serious support/carry lanes. ALSO, that doesn't address the problem of Mundo having level 1 Sadism for teamfights, which is fairly crippling.
Of course we have bumped up against support/carry, that is the new meta now. But teemo played right can keep constant pressure on and mundo burst (yes mundo has great burst from level 2 on) and cleave peels keep teemo safe all day.
Also vayne is a joke, I blow her up in like 5-10 seconds. Jax and nasus just involve kiting their summoners and nasus ult, after that it's a breeze. Tbh even in nasus ult he usually just gets jacked up if you are built right.
But that's why I love mundo, he is one of the characters that can go up against some of those absurdly fed characters that terrify others, (like a fed jax, yi, akali, kat, vayne) and just completely mess them up.
But it's a game of tempo, gotta know when to go aggro and when to kite, and you gotta know as mundo that in every 1on1, you have to balance dps and tankage, lower health = more damage on your part, you have to balance that perfectly.
This is what I mean though, a lot of people aren't balancing mundo properly. Either trying to play him too tanky (he isn't a tank, he has no true disable) or trying to play him too squishy (admittedly I rarely see dps mundos anymore, but even if you are wasting time on starks you are doing it wrong)
You have level 1 sadism from 6 to 11, by the time you hit 11 you should have spirit visage and that is pretty much god mode (well 16 is the true god mode but at 11 you are no longer a joke survival wise)
When you are running organized 5s at level 6-11 you can just play pretty defensively and it's unlikely you are going to lose any material. But even if you don't turtle up it's not hard to figure out who on their team has the healing debuffs and to try and bait them out with minor engages.
I don't know why any mundo would be fully diving into team fights at that point anyway, you aren't built enough til 11.
I think some of these comments are complete over simplifications of very complex situations. Mundo is a very versatile character and can really be scary when building items such as force or thornmail, with the regen and sadism, carries kill themselves before they even get you below 50%. It all depends on the early game but purely saying that Mundo loses to certain champs is dumb. I have seen Mundos even at the bot lane do not only well but excellent. But yes, lvl 1 sadism is sad most times.
On August 17 2011 05:24 MoofinMan wrote: I think some of these comments are complete over simplifications of very complex situations. Mundo is a very versatile character and can really be scary when building items such as force or thornmail, with the regen and sadism, carries kill themselves before they even get you below 50%. It all depends on the early game but purely saying that Mundo loses to certain champs is dumb. I have seen Mundos even at the bot lane do not only well but excellent. But yes, lvl 1 sadism is sad most times.
Level 1 SADism lololol.
But as I was saying, many people just don't get the flow to mundo.
It isn't simply about hitting your ult, running in, doing dmg til you have to leave, and then waiting for your ult again.
Yeah it is definitely more than that. Watching for ignites, stunning those champs, or setting up ganks, even as Mundo can be very useful. Being too dependant on the ult can be a grave mistake when you find yourself with a regen debuff or ignite. I have seen alot of Mundos think they are unkillable when they are def not. I play both singed and Mundo and I die the same amount of times as both so I am not sure I can agree with the surviability argument, but i guess it depends, like i said, situations are more complex than a simple statement of greater or less than.
Copypasta from GD on the brave new world of spellvamp quint jungle Mundo so (a) it doesn't get lost & (b) Neo doesn't yell at people:
On February 08 2012 08:32 Two_DoWn wrote: Anyone actually know how you are supposed to jungle mundo? Im kind of guessing at this point and I dun like it.
The guessing i mean.
On February 08 2012 08:34 mr_tolkien wrote: Vampirical + spellvamp quints.
On February 08 2012 08:42 Alzadar wrote: Yeah, definitely Vamp Scepter. EQEW into R -> E -> Q -> W
I find you don't need to build the Vamp Scepter into anything, the 12% lifesteal + your passive + your ultimate after 6 is all the sustain you need for the jungle.
I don't like going too heavy into lifesteal on Mundo because you are already so reliant on self-healing and healing reductions are already so powerful against you that it seems like a terrible idea to further your reliance on self-healing.
On February 08 2012 08:44 mr_tolkien wrote: More like WEWQ if you have spellvamp quints. AoE da shit out of the small camps.
On February 08 2012 08:46 seRapH wrote: You get 2 levels in W? I've been putting all my points into E. But I don't have spellvamp quints and run boots so idk might be different.
On February 08 2012 08:42 Alzadar wrote: Yeah, definitely Vamp Scepter. EQEW into R -> E -> Q -> W
I find you don't need to build the Vamp Scepter into anything, the 12% lifesteal + your passive + your ultimate after 6 is all the sustain you need for the jungle.
I don't like going too heavy into lifesteal on Mundo because you are already so reliant on self-healing and healing reductions are already so powerful against you that it seems like a terrible idea to further your reliance on self-healing.
W at level 1 for sure. The damage is a whole rank ahead of Shyvana's W at all levels.
I don't think you can really fully map out jungle Mundo's skill order. It's like with jungle Cho'gath: Cho'gath's E is definitely the best skill for jungling, but you really just want to get as much of it as you need to feel comfortable with your speed, and after that skill Q and W for actual ganking/teamfighting.
The same thing applies with Mundo. After you get W and E at level 1 and 2, you get as much W as you need to feel comfortable with your farming speed (usually 2-3 ranks), and then max Q for ganks/teamfights. Mid-lategame skill priority is R>Q>E>W, just as you would do in lane.
Dr Mundo - Why the incredible leap? Well his technology has been discovered and it's SPELL VAMP. The simple use of Spell Vamp quints have nullified a vast majority of his issues (sustain) and made him a really scary guy to duel (even moreso). I had a video uploaded with him using E to jungle and vampiric scepter - but that was because I believed it was the best build for him to go since cloth armor is a waste on him. Using his W makes him go faster but devastates his sustain unless he goes cloth armor. Now with spell vamp runes you can use W and go BOOTS which is superior to both items and gives him more versatility. His ganking is still pretty clutch but it is likely favored to be using him as an invader/duelist and use your god speed to farm and harass.
To help out a bit more - his build is now 9/21/0 AS Red/Armor Yellow/MR Blue/Spell Vamp Quints WQW - Boots to Sorc Boots and Rush Warmogs. You either build more tank items (including more Warmogs) or go for Atmas+Health.
I followed a guide from solo-mid with some success. Going W>E>Q gives strong ganking power at level three doing 40 dps with W and +40 AD with E. Q means you can run along and give most champs a couple of wacks in the head while running next to them. Also giving you the option to steal red directly after blue.
Sustain yourself from pots in the beginning. After 3 levels or so in W begin maxing E. With some attackspeed items like wits end you can dish out some damage.
On February 08 2012 19:50 Arevall wrote: I followed a guide from solo-mid with some success. Going W>E>Q gives strong ganking power at level three doing 40 dps with W and +40 AD with E. Q means you can run along and give most champs a couple of wacks in the head while running next to them. Also giving you the option to steal red directly after blue.
Sustain yourself from pots in the beginning. After 3 levels or so in W begin maxing E. With some attackspeed items like wits end you can dish out some damage.
Disclaimer: I'm pretty bad, lol.
The guide you are referencing is from Rincent by the way, who is mostly prominent for running Twitch top and magically making it work. He prefers AS and even MS Quints over Spellvamp, and judging from his video, it's pretty beast.
I strongly dislike his item build, though. I get the idea of Wit's and I'm also okay with not building Wriggle's on Mundo, but Mallet? I don't know. I'm going to try Dr. Jungle today with 1 Spellvamp Quint 2 AS Quints because I currently down own any more, rush HoG into WE->Atmog's and report.
Speaking of items, I can't remember where, but someone actually suggested Rylai's on jungle Mundo. While I think that's a highly subpar item: what kind of stuff do YOU guys go when jungling?
I've been starting Boots for early ganks, buying a Vamp Scepter, then building SV. Boots depend on enemy composition, but Tabi are really good since they're cheap and make you really tanky against AD. After all that it's Warmog's -> Atma's/FoN.
On February 14 2012 07:43 Seuss wrote: I've been starting Boots for early ganks, buying a Vamp Scepter, then building SV. Boots depend on enemy composition, but Tabi are really good since they're cheap and make you really tanky against AD. After all that it's Warmog's -> Atma's/FoN.
HoG doesn't sound like a bad idea.
So I tried one game with the build Rincent suggests in his guide and it's not all that bad. The earlyish Phage really helps with ganks because there will be situations where you cannot land cleaver because of creeps and it feels very nice overall. The damage Mundo puts out just with E+Wit's end is insane. I'll try with just getting a Giant's Belt into Atma's instead of FM next time.
On February 14 2012 07:43 Seuss wrote: I've been starting Boots for early ganks, buying a Vamp Scepter, then building SV. Boots depend on enemy composition, but Tabi are really good since they're cheap and make you really tanky against AD. After all that it's Warmog's -> Atma's/FoN.
HoG doesn't sound like a bad idea.
So I tried one game with the build Rincent suggests in his guide and it's not all that bad. The earlyish Phage really helps with ganks because there will be situations where you cannot land cleaver because of creeps and it feels very nice overall. The damage Mundo puts out just with E+Wit's end is insane. I'll try with just getting a Giant's Belt into Atma's instead of FM next time.
Phage is a great first 2nd level item on all junglers. I just find that I don't have enough sustain if I don't build a wriggles first. Being able to do a lot of damage to blue golem with 2 wriggles procs and smite seems to help a lot in taking less damage in the jungle. This is especially useful on weak junglers like twitch.
On February 14 2012 08:22 NeoIllusions wrote: Rincent is crazy as fk, don't get me wrong. But I don't understand the W max build. Makes your ganks pretty damn weak.
Honestly, I don't get it either and have been following the ''as much as needed, as little as possible'' policy for W. I've had it at rank 3 when I maxed my E, and I was very confident about my clear speed. Wit's End+E hurts a LOT more than I expected.
On February 14 2012 08:22 NeoIllusions wrote: Rincent is crazy as fk, don't get me wrong. But I don't understand the W max build. Makes your ganks pretty damn weak.
Honestly, I don't get it either and have been following the ''as much as needed, as little as possible'' policy for W. I've had it at rank 3 when I maxed my E, and I was very confident about my clear speed. Wit's End+E hurts a LOT more than I expected.
This is very correct. W makes you clear small camps faster, Q makes you clear big camps and dragon faster and gank better, E makes you kill everything somewhat faster and 1v1 champions better. Mundo is ridiculously flexible with his skill ordering. Spellvamp quints aren't necessary for a godlike jungle mundo. You can do fine with movespeed quints and vamp scepter. You won't clear as fast but you gank better.
Items for Mundo: Zekes is the item I always rush now if there's at least one other physical damage dealer on the team. It's basically 425 gold for 5% cdr, 50 hp, and a nice aura for your teammates. It also combines a bunch of items that I would buy anyways into one slot. I'm not a fan of wit's end. Mercs + SV + Mundo's built-in MR give me all the MR I need for most of the game. I would rather get my attackspeed from Zeke's or Phantom Dancer.
Wriggles? You need attackspeed, not more damage. You should build Zekes for lifesteal and rely on runes to carry you on armor until Randuins.
Phage? No thanks. I don't really want Frozen Mallet on Mundo, and I don't really want Triforce on Mundo, and if I can't slow someone with cleaver I probably can't slow them with an autoattack (especially with a 25% proc chance). For armor, I love Randuins. It is seriously still ridiculous. It basically covers you from physical damage, dominates 1v1 fights with ranged carries, makes you harder to kite and chase, and gives you nice hp regen.
The best part about this is Zekes Mercs Visage Zeal Chainmail is only 7k, so an enemy AD with comparable farm won't have finished IE/PD yet. This build is also quite affordable from jungle, with the biggest single piece being Chainmail at 700 and most of it coming in 300-500 increments. Remember that thanks to Mundo's E, he outputs damage on par with a carry with 1-2 fully stacked bloodthirsters.
Why don't I get Atmogs? Well, first, if you're jungling Mundo, like most junglers he won't get Warmogs in any reasonable amount of time unless he's fed. Second, Mundo already has +100-200 damage. He doesn't need another 60 as much as he needs some attackspeed. Third, there are lots of cheap items that give mundo exactly what he needs. Of course, if you're fed this is the way to go, because my build is really cramped for space if the game goes on long. But most of the time this is better.
Phage on Twitch is a better idea because 1) he doesn't really want to put tons of points into Debilitating Poison early, since Q and E are much more attractive skills, 2) he has a ranged attack so he doesn't have to stand next to dudes to slow them, and 3) he has attackspeed and needs damage, while Mundo is the opposite.
Also, currently quite frustrating. Cleanse does not seem to remove ignite, in my experience. This needs testing, since I'm not 100% sure and one of my friends claims it does, but it has deterred me from using cleanse.
On February 14 2012 08:22 NeoIllusions wrote: Rincent is crazy as fk, don't get me wrong. But I don't understand the W max build. Makes your ganks pretty damn weak.
Honestly, I don't get it either and have been following the ''as much as needed, as little as possible'' policy for W. I've had it at rank 3 when I maxed my E, and I was very confident about my clear speed. Wit's End+E hurts a LOT more than I expected.
This is very correct. W makes you clear small camps faster, Q makes you clear big camps and dragon faster and gank better, E makes you kill everything somewhat faster and 1v1 champions better. Mundo is ridiculously flexible with his skill ordering. Spellvamp quints aren't necessary for a godlike jungle mundo. You can do fine with movespeed quints and vamp scepter. You won't clear as fast but you gank better.
Items for Mundo: Zekes is the item I always rush now if there's at least one other physical damage dealer on the team. It's basically 425 gold for 5% cdr, 50 hp, and a nice aura for your teammates. It also combines a bunch of items that I would buy anyways into one slot. I'm not a fan of wit's end. Mercs + SV + Mundo's built-in MR give me all the MR I need for most of the game. I would rather get my attackspeed from Zeke's or Phantom Dancer.
Wriggles? You need attackspeed, not more damage. You should build Zekes for lifesteal and rely on runes to carry you on armor until Randuins.
Phage? No thanks. I don't really want Frozen Mallet on Mundo, and I don't really want Triforce on Mundo, and if I can't slow someone with cleaver I probably can't slow them with an autoattack (especially with a 25% proc chance). For armor, I love Randuins. It is seriously still ridiculous. It basically covers you from physical damage, dominates 1v1 fights with ranged carries, makes you harder to kite and chase, and gives you nice hp regen.
The best part about this is Zekes Mercs Visage Zeal Chainmail is only 7k, so an enemy AD with comparable farm won't have finished IE/PD yet. This build is also quite affordable from jungle, with the biggest single piece being Chainmail at 700 and most of it coming in 300-500 increments. Remember that thanks to Mundo's E, he outputs damage on par with a carry with 1-2 fully stacked bloodthirsters.
Why don't I get Atmogs? Well, first, if you're jungling Mundo, like most junglers he won't get Warmogs in any reasonable amount of time unless he's fed. Second, Mundo already has +100-200 damage. He doesn't need another 60 as much as he needs some attackspeed. Third, there are lots of cheap items that give mundo exactly what he needs. Of course, if you're fed this is the way to go, because my build is really cramped for space if the game goes on long. But most of the time this is better.
Phage on Twitch is a better idea because 1) he doesn't really want to put tons of points into Debilitating Poison early, since Q and E are much more attractive skills, 2) he has a ranged attack so he doesn't have to stand next to dudes to slow them, and 3) he has attackspeed and needs damage, while Mundo is the opposite.
Also, currently quite frustrating. Cleanse does not seem to remove ignite, in my experience. This needs testing, since I'm not 100% sure and one of my friends claims it does, but it has deterred me from using cleanse.
I agree the majority of your post. Mundo's core of Zeke's Merc Visage is solid. I have mixed feelings about Zeal and PD. If you get far enough ahead, building "DPS" Mundo seems viable. Otherwise, ending your build with Atmog's is fine imoimo. You still need some sort of tankiness to eat most of the enemy spells.
Also, you need QSS.
Final build should be something along Zeke's, Merc, SV, Atmog's QSS. :O If no Atmog's Randuin's for kiting and your choice on 6th.
I have never jungled mundo, only top lane, but it feels like you guys are crazy. Mundo's base damage is so high you just rush warmogs force of nature sunfire randuins shit like that and get an atmas and a PD when people start getting really tanky//ranged AD do too much damage through tank items you need damage. You can try to cash in on the nice steriod on E but then suddenly as a jungler you are already a bit squishier than normal and your ulti is only going to outweigh the health you burn on spells especially if it takes you a while to get level 11.
The only issue I've had is I feel like sunfire adds a surprising amount of damage but you absolutely can't go without randuins versus say a vayne. You still want space for Atmas and PD so that leaves space for warmogs, fon, and 1 armour item. I guess having sunfire earlier on and selling it for PD super lategame might be an option.
EDIT: Ignore my post earlier in this thread, probably it's stupid. (then again I think that of most of my earlier posts, I was born and raised in this subforum in LoL terms. Starting at level 10-20 when I was posting haha)
In jungle, I realize you can't afford to rush big items though, but perhaps something like dhsield/hog/aegis/zekes would be more beefy? Or do you guys think that spirit visage is too important on him? Felt like his ulty isn't to be relied on too much because ignite cuts it in half. I generally wany to be tanky enough that they can't focus me at any point meaning I can safely ult without worrying about dying under ignite.
In jungle, I realize you can't afford to rush big items though, but perhaps something like dhsield/hog/aegis/zekes would be more beefy? Or do you guys think that spirit visage is too important on him? Felt like his ulty isn't to be relied on too much because ignite cuts it in half. I generally wany to be tanky enough that they can't focus me at any point meaning I can safely ult without worrying about dying under ignite.
I honestly don't like SV early all that much because it doesn't benefit you until you have decent amounts of HP. I've been going HoG->Zeke's->Mercs->Aegis->SV->Randuin's today and I felt like the bawsiest of bawses. Always run, never die. I still feel I lack chasing power occasionally, but that might be me being bad with dem cleaverz.
Don't see the need for DShield, btw. Also, I'm at 4% spellvamp now and I consider getting Wit's again. I feel like if I don't dominate their jungler and a lane early-mid game, I don't do my job, and Wit's makes me a beast in any 1v1.
I just hate playing jungle without sustain. I tend to stay in the jungle farming for a long time and coming out randomly to gank, so it require more sustain than usual I also hate not being full hp when I gank.
On February 15 2012 09:47 Slayer91 wrote: I just hate playing jungle without sustain. I tend to stay in the jungle farming for a long time and coming out randomly to gank, so it require more sustain than usual I also hate not being full hp when I gank.
Fair enough! With an early HoG, spellvamp Quints and your ult, I FEEL like you should be able to accomplish that, though. I'm not sure, but I think people underestimate his sustain with early HP and spellvamp. That being said, you're a lot better at this game than I am, I'm just trying to share my observations from my most recent tries.
I have the spell vamp quints but I haven't tried them on mundo yet, I'll have to get back to you on that. I saw diamondprox get it and it seemed smart to me, but I'm not sure how much research he'd done on his jungle mundo haha.
On February 15 2012 10:52 Slayer91 wrote: I have the spell vamp quints but I haven't tried them on mundo yet, I'll have to get back to you on that. I saw diamondprox get it and it seemed smart to me, but I'm not sure how much research he'd done on his jungle mundo haha.
Hehe, I feel you. I'm not sure if they're worth it if you play a gank heavy mundo, but for your purposes, shouldn't they be perfect? They let you jungle longer than AS or MS quints and really make a boots start even easier.
On February 15 2012 12:46 UniversalSnip wrote: somebody did the math on the vamp quints on him, I guess in the GD thread, and they're worse than flat hp regen quints for jungle clears lololol
On February 15 2012 12:46 UniversalSnip wrote: somebody did the math on the vamp quints on him, I guess in the GD thread, and they're worse than flat hp regen quints for jungle clears lololol
To give a precise answer you need to do some fine measurements on Mundo's early jungling, but at face value it looks like Spell Vamp smashes flat hp5. Anywhere you aren't hitting 3-4 creeps with W you're mauling them with Q. Flat hp5 only really shines if you're spending a lot of time outside of the jungle.
On February 15 2012 12:46 UniversalSnip wrote: somebody did the math on the vamp quints on him, I guess in the GD thread, and they're worse than flat hp regen quints for jungle clears lololol
To give a precise answer you need to do some fine measurements on Mundo's early jungling, but at face value it looks like Spell Vamp smashes flat hp5. Anywhere you aren't hitting 3-4 creeps with W you're mauling them with Q. Flat hp5 only really shines if you're spending a lot of time outside of the jungle.
On February 15 2012 12:46 UniversalSnip wrote: somebody did the math on the vamp quints on him, I guess in the GD thread, and they're worse than flat hp regen quints for jungle clears lololol
To give a precise answer you need to do some fine measurements on Mundo's early jungling, but at face value it looks like Spell Vamp smashes flat hp5. Anywhere you aren't hitting 3-4 creeps with W you're mauling them with Q. Flat hp5 only really shines if you're spending a lot of time outside of the jungle.
What? You're totally not measuring the time it takes to walk from base to base, not to mention that Q should almost never be hitting for max anyway, you really should be using lvl 1 or 2 Q as the standard instead. Mundo also clears the jungle so fast that he indeed will spend quite a bit of time walking which is when spellvamp quints do nothing.
Poor Mundo, nerfed to the ground by Twisted Treeline.
I tried playing him as an agressive support in lane, thinking the harras with Q should be good enough to make the other carry miss a lot of CS, but it gets shutdown easily by any standard carry+support lane.
As Shikyo said, spellvamp does nothing when you're not using spells. And you shouldn't bother using cleavers on small camps, since w + autoattacking the big creep clears them fast enough anyways. Also, even with max damage cleavers, the health cost outweighs what spellvamp can return. W + E is amazing for clearing the jungle - you shouldn't need more than 1 point in Q for ganks, since the slow doesn't scale with levels.
On February 15 2012 12:46 UniversalSnip wrote: somebody did the math on the vamp quints on him, I guess in the GD thread, and they're worse than flat hp regen quints for jungle clears lololol
To give a precise answer you need to do some fine measurements on Mundo's early jungling, but at face value it looks like Spell Vamp smashes flat hp5. Anywhere you aren't hitting 3-4 creeps with W you're mauling them with Q. Flat hp5 only really shines if you're spending a lot of time outside of the jungle.
What? You're totally not measuring the time it takes to walk from base to base, not to mention that Q should almost never be hitting for max anyway, you really should be using lvl 1 or 2 Q as the standard instead. Mundo also clears the jungle so fast that he indeed will spend quite a bit of time walking which is when spellvamp quints do nothing.
edit: obv I meant camp to camp >_
That's why I said to give a precise answer you'd need to actually measure this. At "face value" it seemed obvious to me that Spell Vamp crushed hp5 while you're fighting (which includes covering lanes or ganking), and that hp5 did well when you weren't (which includes time between camps). Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Didn't like the spell vamp quints or the heavy W points, it's kinda wasting your auto attacks and it costs too much hp. E feels liek the real king for jungle mundo. I lost too much hp the way i was doing it, that's with dshield.
Mundo, due to his rather silly and offbeat design, has a lot of flexibility in his build paths and leaves a lot to personal playstyle. I run movespeed quints because I like being FAST. Lifesteal, spellvamp and hp5 are good for higher sustainability, while attackspeed, armor, armor pen and magic pen are also reasonable options.
The aggravating thing about quicksilver sash is that between boots, spirit visage, and qss that's half your inventory in <4k gold. I think Mundo would be super viable if either of the following 2 things happened: 1) item that combines SV and QSS, or at least builds out of QSS or 2) Cleanse ACTUALLY REMOVES IGNITE. Either of these things would be fine.
Most important Mundo skill for teamfighting: NOT GOING TOO FAR IN. Remember that if you last 12 seconds you absorb TONS more damage than if you only last 6, thanks to your massive regen. In fact, if you're still alive at the end of the fight, you'll be topped up and good to go (with ult back up!) in about 30 seconds. Further, you are actually really good at peeling for your carry, since you can truck tanks and assassins alike while peeling with constant cleavers and absorbing skillshots with your huge MUNDO. You can dive the enemy carry if you need to, thanks to the speedboost from ult and your crazy 1v1 potential, though you're far more easily peeled by permaslows than, say, Akali. Finally, you're a good asset in the poke game because of cleaver's low cost and low cooldown, as well as how good you are at absorbing damage. Honestly, you can just walk into all the skillshots and heal it off in short order. No one's going to initiate because 3.5k hp 150 MR Mundo got hit by morgana's dark binding - he'll live, he'll regen it quickly, and it won't even lock him down long. Anyways, to summarize that passage MUNDO DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOU.
EQWQQ R>E/W>Q Ult whenever possible, of course. E is for a more physical focus, which is my preferred style. W will clear small camps faster and allow you to chase better, but E gives you much greater 1v1 potential and faster buff camps, as well as scaling better. I get three ranks in Q because it lets you clear buffs so much faster, which is where most of the gold value is concentrated in the current jungle. It also lets you actually threaten dragon (you ~can~ solo it at 6, though it's very slow, very risky, and slightly luck dependent). I stop taking points in Q after that because I either want W to farm/solopush lanes faster or E to crush everything in my path. Sometimes I max Q first, if it's a poke heavy game.
21/9/0 My favorite. Smash through the jungle incredibly quickly, staying at around half health because of lifesteal. Obviously, you want all the physical damage masteries, but perhaps less obviously you should grab the cdr and magic pen masteries as well. 9/21/0 Better for spellvamp-tanky-Wmax build. x/x/21 Whatevs, it's Mundo. Build him how you please.
Pretty much any combination of physical damage and tankiness works. Some recommended setups are: Attackspeed reds, Armor yellows, Flat CDR blues, Movespeed quints. My default. Common runes, perfectly logical.
Crit chance reds, Attackspeed yellows and blues, Lifesteal quints. More physically focused Mundo. Start boots. Definitely get a Zeal at some point. Max E as fast as you can. Kill everything.
Armor or attackspeed reds, armor or hp/level yellows, scaling mr blues, spellvamp or something tanky on quints. This goes best with the W first spellvamp Mundo. If you don't run spellvamp quints, you're gonna get real low hp (which actually translates into faster jungle, on Mundo).
Start boots if you can get away with it and vamp scepter if you can't. In some order, buy Zeke's Herald, Spirit Visage, and Randuins. Build Zeke's first if you anticipate early teamfights or if your team is heavily autoattack focused. Otherwise, get the parts first and upgrade later. Build Randuin's first if the enemy team has strong physical damage early (I mean like Garen Graves Talon level strong). Just getting HoG + Chainmail and finishing it later is ok too. Build Zeal first if 1) you be rollin' 2) you want to style on scrubs 3) you have a heavy physical spec Otherwise build Spirit Visage first. If you didn't start with boots, get them on your first b.
WHEN MUNDO BUY QSS?!? Or rather, when should Mundo NOT buy it? If the enemy team has no ignites or heal reduction, don't buy it. If the enemy team is bad and can't coordinatedly ignite you in teamfights, you can get away without it. Once/if cleanse is fixed to remove the healing reduction from ignite, just run cleanse unless they have a bunch of suppression or something.
Start wherever. I like enemy wraiths -> wolves blue against fast junglers, enemy golems-wraiths-red against a particularly slow jungler, or my golems-wraiths-red for early ganks. Run around haphazardly, mainly running to lanes to try for a gank, controlling buffs, and farming small camps or lanes when convenient. Your priorities are, in order: 1) annoy the enemy laners into ragequitting 2) get every blue and red on both sides of the map 3) get farmed off of lanes 4) kill small creeps
GANKING AS MUNDO When can I gank? Whenever Cleaver is off cooldown. Who can I gank? Any lane past half pushed, and some that aren't even (mostly top). Are my ganks really that strong? Well, you aren't going to get kills most of the time. But ganking serves several purposes: the enemy laner feels a little more nervous, hopefully; the enemy laner takes some damage and maybe even has to b; the enemy laner buys wards; the enemy laner rages at his jungle for never ganking; your gankbuddy gets into a better position in lane. How do I gank? Run in behind them, cleaver when you know you can hit (or just throw it at random and leave if you miss hue). Mash E and autoattack them.
DON'T SPEND TOO LONG ON A GANK. You don't need a kill from EVERY gank. Just cleaver, try and hit him a few times, and be on your merry way. Too many people think "if I wait JUST A BIT LONGER I'll TOTALLY get a kill". DON'T FOCUS ON THE SMALL CAMPS. Buffs are worth twice as much as wraiths and wolves, plus they give you a handy-dandy super power. Small camps are for killing if you have nothing else to do. DON'T HELP YOUR TEAMMATES TAKE YOUR BUFFS That doesn't mean don't give them up - it's just not worth your time, usually, to tank blue buff while your sissy midlane stands there autoattacking for a minute. If he can't kill it himself, get your top or support to tank it if reasonably possible. You're the jungler, you've got far better things to do with your time. (Such as take the enemy blue buff).
Flat hp gives you 48.15 on yellows and 78 on quints Hp/level gives you 9.27/level on yellows and 8.1/level on quints Hp% gives you 4.5% on yellows and 4.5% on quints
In other words, hp/level breaks even with flat hp at level 5-6 on yellows and 9-10 on quints. hp% gives you 4.5% of your base hp and hp/level which is 433*.045 and 89*.045 = 19.5 and 3.7/level. So hp% yellows catch up with flat hp by level 6 and kindlegem/hog, and hp% quints surpass flat hp at about twice that much (level 11, kindlegem+hog) hp% yellows start with a 10 hp lead on hp/level, which catches up at level 3. hp% breaks even if you buy 120 hp/level each level after 3. The values will be equal at level 18 if you have 3.7k hp. hp% quints compare slightly more favorably, staying ahead until level 5, requiring 100 hp per level to break even, and at level 18 being comparable to 3.2k hp.
SUMMARY: hp/level yellows are pretty much the best of the three, unless you really plan to get tanky fast. Hp% quints are better if you wanna rush Warmogs; if you're going Zekes-Visage-Randuins you're probably better off with hp/level. Most likely you're gonna want something else in quints though.
DON'T HELP YOUR TEAMMATES TAKE YOUR BUFFS That doesn't mean don't give them up - it's just not worth your time, usually, to tank blue buff while your sissy midlane stands there autoattacking for a minute. If he can't kill it himself, get your top or support to tank it if reasonably possible. You're the jungler, you've got far better things to do with your time. (Such as take the enemy blue buff).
Wut. You totally do not have better things to do than get blues for mid. Why are you sitting there while they AA it? Get it to oneshot then call mid over. Many many mids just cannot kill blue in a reasonable time period without taking huge damage.
Giving mid blue is your job. You know who has better things to do? Top and support, they need to be in lane all the time so they dont lose tower and massive amounts of continuously flowing experience and gold or let your precious AD carry get ganked. Jungle is the fastest and most efficient at killing big camps on the team, and the one who loses out on the least by doing it.
For gods sake just watch some good players and copy what they do in the jungle. When TOO starts letting Ahri solo bluebuff for 4 minutes because he has better things to do then you can maybe come back and start talking about this again.
I'm overstating things, of course. If you're passing through, sure, tank it for him. But don't come running across the map just cos your mid is a lazy bum who can't hurt creeps. Top tower isn't going to go down if top leaves for 15 seconds. If it is, go gank top THEN give your mid blue. Junglers are already starved for gold and experience, and frequently are on the opposite side of the map or acting on strict timers. Especially if you're counterjungling heavily, you might not be able to get blue to your mid in any reasonable length of time. Your AD hopefully isn't going to die because support left for a bit. You're giving up 74 gold every time you give blue to your mid, as well as a decent chunk of experience. That's about 5 creeps. If your top lane can't live without five creeps, why can you?
While I realize I'm nowhere near as good as you are on MadMundo, there's some stuff I really don't like about the way you play him. 3 points in Q seem like such a waste - you gimp your sustainability in jungle considerably, your clear speed too and why do you feel it takes mundo any time to clear buffs? Even at level 2, where I usually steal their red, I feel like I'm one of the fastest clearers around. Then again, I start WEQ most of the time. I don't really see a reason not to - I do wolves, ask for a strong leash at blue, then go steal their red with smite. So far, it's worked 100% of the time, but I only played like 10 games or so. As for Zeke's, I tried it and it's considerably stronger than Wit's. I've been toying with the idea to get Wit's over Zeal and PD additionally to Zeke, because I feel the AS is really really good, the damage proc comes in handy and I just neeeeeeeeeeed the MR badly. I also run 9/12/9 masteries.
I'm going to give your build a try, though! Just in theory, it feels like it does not fit my playstyle. That might be because I play a bad Mundo, or I approach him differently. Thanks for your guide though, I really really appreciate it.
DON'T HELP YOUR TEAMMATES TAKE YOUR BUFFS That doesn't mean don't give them up - it's just not worth your time, usually, to tank blue buff while your sissy midlane stands there autoattacking for a minute. If he can't kill it himself, get your top or support to tank it if reasonably possible. You're the jungler, you've got far better things to do with your time. (Such as take the enemy blue buff).
Wut. You totally do not have better things to do than get blues for mid. Why are you sitting there while they AA it? Get it to oneshot then call mid over. Many many mids just cannot kill blue in a reasonable time period without taking huge damage.
Giving mid blue is your job. You know who has better things to do? Top and support, they need to be in lane all the time so they dont lose tower and massive amounts of continuously flowing experience and gold or let your precious AD carry get ganked. Jungle is the fastest and most efficient at killing big camps on the team, and the one who loses out on the least by doing it.
For gods sake just watch some good players and copy what they do in the jungle. When TOO starts letting Ahri solo bluebuff for 4 minutes because he has better things to do then you can maybe come back and start talking about this again.
Agree. Good junglers, save fiddlesticks, donate blue.
Good fiddlesticks pick fiddlesticks when the mid is not mana based.
If you don't have good timers on your buffs you can get counterjungled too. I recall games with some high elo friends of friends, where someone told me to get better buff control. I couldn't tell why until I started counterjungling and timing my enemy buffs.
From what I've seen, spell vamp quints are shit on even mundo.
On February 16 2012 04:25 Tooplark wrote: or 2) Cleanse ACTUALLY REMOVES IGNITE. Either of these things would be fine.
Ever since they re-did the masteries/summoner spells they buffed Cleanse to remove ignite and exhaust (maybe it did exhaust before... i forget). http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Cleanse
edit: it looks like it just may remove the damage and not the healing debuff (sorry)
E > Q is definitively better after further testing. Now I go EQWEERQQ then W>E>Q
Wit's End vs Zeal vs just more tank is a good question. Wit's is a nice compromise. More health isn't a bad idea (and more health probably means warmogs), while force of nature is a reasonable pick.
I don't have anything against donating blue, but I'm not going to run halfway across the map to give it to our mid as soon as it respawns. If they want it NOW they can kill it themselves. Lazy bums.
Going to bump this after watching Saint jungle Mundo for the past few days.
He goes W first then Q and max E last. Play style is somewhat like Shyvana(counter jungle) where he would get really tanky and just farm to unstoppable status and oracles to clear wards. Goes boots -> Hog -> Warmogs -> Wits end -> situational, item build varies of course.
On March 07 2012 04:40 Ryuu314 wrote: I guess I'm gonna have to eat crow. How did SV jungle Mundo at IEM? Runes/Masteries/Skill order?
Maybe I missed something, but how would we know? He maxed W before E against fnatic, went Cloth 5 -> HoG -> Tabi -> situational. Aegis, Warmog's, stuff like that. He had the team to build like that, in solo Q, I'd still suggest the builds already discussed in this thread.
As a follow up to my previous mathy posts, I did a run and measured the actual damage I was doing with spells/auto attacks. I used those numbers to determine the actual effectiveness of Spell Vamp quints versus Life Steal and hp5. The net result was that all of them healed for between 200-210 health over the course of the run.
So for your first clear it doesn't seem to matter which you use. Pick whichever meshes best with your style/plans/build and go from there.
it's hard to math out which runes are good for jungle mundo :\
aspeed would be good because you have high damage with E apen because you hit people harder and you use W against creeps anyways tank runes just because it's always good to be tanky on mundo
so I picked up jungle mundo and he is really fun to play. I don't have a clue about item builds on him though. I've just been openings DShield and then trying out a bunch of different items. I usually do grab a HoG but what to get after that? I've tried wits and zeke's. Everything seems to work fine but what is the most efficient stuff in terms of item choices? Also what sort of a lategame build should I be aiming for?
Start boots if you can get away with it and vamp scepter if you can't. In some order, buy Zeke's Herald, Spirit Visage, and Randuins. Build Zeke's first if you anticipate early teamfights or if your team is heavily autoattack focused. Otherwise, get the parts first and upgrade later. Build Randuin's first if the enemy team has strong physical damage early (I mean like Garen Graves Talon level strong). Just getting HoG + Chainmail and finishing it later is ok too. Build Zeal first if 1) you be rollin' 2) you want to style on scrubs 3) you have a heavy physical spec Otherwise build Spirit Visage first. If you didn't start with boots, get them on your first b.
WHEN MUNDO BUY QSS?!? Or rather, when should Mundo NOT buy it? If the enemy team has no ignites or heal reduction, don't buy it. If the enemy team is bad and can't coordinatedly ignite you in teamfights, you can get away without it. Once/if cleanse is fixed to remove the healing reduction from ignite, just run cleanse unless they have a bunch of suppression or something.
This thread's only four pages long, jeez.
That's my preferred way of playing him; it's also perfectly legit to go for a Wit's build. In general, Wits builds will be slightly tankier and do slightly more magic damage at the expense of team utility and physical damage. The group I usually play with tends to play phys autoattackers a lot, making zekes a great choice.
If any of you can give opinions on this as I have not seen that many Mundo picks on streams: For jungle mundo, starting with vamp + 1, going to wriggles, then rushing for wit's end + MoM combo. Is it worth the gold? I feel MoM's passives are highly underestimated. It feels really good against more AP-centric comps. It also feels like a huge boost to his mid-game power because it works with a lot of mundo's natural points, which can carry you over to late game. Initial thoughts on the idea, or is it just badly thought out?
Start boots if you can get away with it and vamp scepter if you can't. In some order, buy Zeke's Herald, Spirit Visage, and Randuins. Build Zeke's first if you anticipate early teamfights or if your team is heavily autoattack focused. Otherwise, get the parts first and upgrade later. Build Randuin's first if the enemy team has strong physical damage early (I mean like Garen Graves Talon level strong). Just getting HoG + Chainmail and finishing it later is ok too. Build Zeal first if 1) you be rollin' 2) you want to style on scrubs 3) you have a heavy physical spec Otherwise build Spirit Visage first. If you didn't start with boots, get them on your first b.
WHEN MUNDO BUY QSS?!? Or rather, when should Mundo NOT buy it? If the enemy team has no ignites or heal reduction, don't buy it. If the enemy team is bad and can't coordinatedly ignite you in teamfights, you can get away without it. Once/if cleanse is fixed to remove the healing reduction from ignite, just run cleanse unless they have a bunch of suppression or something.
This thread's only four pages long, jeez.
That's my preferred way of playing him; it's also perfectly legit to go for a Wit's build. In general, Wits builds will be slightly tankier and do slightly more magic damage at the expense of team utility and physical damage. The group I usually play with tends to play phys autoattackers a lot, making zekes a great choice.
While I felt zeke's kind of gives you everything, it still feels more of a midgame item. Come lategame, would you sell it for something else or keep it? Also I felt like I needed something that gave me more than 20% AS.
On March 22 2012 20:50 ketchup wrote: If any of you can give opinions on this as I have not seen that many Mundo picks on streams: For jungle mundo, starting with vamp + 1, going to wriggles, then rushing for wit's end + MoM combo. Is it worth the gold? I feel MoM's passives are highly underestimated. It feels really good against more AP-centric comps. It also feels like a huge boost to his mid-game power because it works with a lot of mundo's natural points, which can carry you over to late game. Initial thoughts on the idea, or is it just badly thought out?
Your build has zero health after spending 8.1k gold on items (including boots). You really don't need both Wit's End and MoM, especially as they lend themselves toward different sorts of item builds.
ketchup: Wriggle's doesn't speed Mundo's jungle up nearly as much as most junglers, on account of most of his damage coming from Burning Agony and huge Masochism autoattacks.
For 8k gold you could get Zekes + SV + Randuin's + Zeal + Merc Treads which gives +90 armor +800 health +55 magic resistance +40% attack speed +10% crit chance +8% movement speed +30% cooldown reduction Spirit Visage passive Randuin's passive Randuin's active Attackspeed/lifesteal aura The CDR is actually the biggest deal here. 4% from offense + flat CDR blues puts me at cap, and with just zeke's + sv I'm at 35%. That means the total time when my ult is on cooldown and not currently healing me is about 27 seconds. Masochism hits perma-uptime at 15% cdr, and Cleaver is every 2.4 seconds so you can actually chase with it.
If you want a Wit's End build, the next things you need to buy are armor and health.
anmolsinghmzn2009: I run aspd marks and quints, which is another 25%. 45% generally covers me until Zeal, since very rarely will people stand and fight me. Most aura items are semi-midgameish, yes. If the game hits the point where I've finished my entire build, then yes I'll consider selling Zekes for something like Ghostblade (which is also a good first Mundo item) or another PD. My build is not super late game focused, though.
On March 23 2012 02:52 Tooplark wrote: ketchup: Wriggle's doesn't speed Mundo's jungle up nearly as much as most junglers, on account of most of his damage coming from Burning Agony and huge Masochism autoattacks.
For 8k gold you could get Zekes + SV + Randuin's + Zeal + Merc Treads which gives +90 armor +800 health +55 magic resistance +40% attack speed +10% crit chance +8% movement speed +30% cooldown reduction Spirit Visage passive Randuin's passive Randuin's active Attackspeed/lifesteal aura The CDR is actually the biggest deal here. 4% from offense + flat CDR blues puts me at cap, and with just zeke's + sv I'm at 35%. That means the total time when my ult is on cooldown and not currently healing me is about 27 seconds. Masochism hits perma-uptime at 15% cdr, and Cleaver is every 2.4 seconds so you can actually chase with it.
If you want a Wit's End build, the next things you need to buy are armor and health.
anmolsinghmzn2009: I run aspd marks and quints, which is another 25%. 45% generally covers me until Zeal, since very rarely will people stand and fight me. Most aura items are semi-midgameish, yes. If the game hits the point where I've finished my entire build, then yes I'll consider selling Zekes for something like Ghostblade (which is also a good first Mundo item) or another PD. My build is not super late game focused, though.
Vamp scepter, 21/9/0 or 21/0/9 (still up in the air about this). I'm thinking about swapping in lifesteal quints and starting dagger, since aspd is the bigger limitation 90% of the time. EQWE, then usually something like EQQ W>E=Q If you do golems -> wraiths -> lizard, EQ is the fastest way to do it. You have to b but you get almost enough gold for boots (sometimes I fakegank mid and steal a creep just to get them hue). I'm considering a utility spec just so I can get that juicy gold (also would let me swap out cdr blues for mr or even more aspd). The other good start that I've played around with is wraiths wolves blue, which (if you can convince someone to stick around that long) is really fast full claer and red.
This mundo is a cheesier, gankier mundo. You kill buff camps faster, you kill champions faster, and you can threaten dragon earlier than the tanky spellvamp wit's end mundo, which is basically shyvana but less dumb and boring.
| Yeah, I'm trying AS red/quint. Crit chance reds works too, with the 21 offense, as long as you get zeal earlyish. v
On March 23 2012 09:16 Tooplark wrote: Vamp scepter, 21/9/0 or 21/0/9 (still up in the air about this). I'm thinking about swapping in lifesteal quints and starting dagger, since aspd is the bigger limitation 90% of the time. EQWE, then usually something like EQQ W>E=Q If you do golems -> wraiths -> lizard, EQ is the fastest way to do it. You have to b but you get almost enough gold for boots (sometimes I fakegank mid and steal a creep just to get them hue). I'm considering a utility spec just so I can get that juicy gold (also would let me swap out cdr blues for mr or even more aspd). The other good start that I've played around with is wraiths wolves blue, which (if you can convince someone to stick around that long) is really fast full claer and red.
This mundo is a cheesier, gankier mundo. You kill buff camps faster, you kill champions faster, and you can threaten dragon earlier than the tanky spellvamp wit's end mundo, which is basically shyvana but less dumb and boring.
I understand why no one plays mundo... he is really really hard to play effectively the first 5 or so times because you just have no idea how much you can spam skills etc.
Thank god for this entry barrier, because it means I get to abuse him every game, and no one else ever picks him. That being said, it does get tiring hearing "Wow, Mundo? Why you troll?"
Nothing quite as satisfying as being really farmed Mundo and just not dying.
Yea you kinda have to get to know that stuff initially. But after that this guy is SOOO fun! And he clears so freaking fast. Its like I clear my jungle and half the enemy jungle and I'm like -'eh, what do I do now???' pop ult and dive mid ofc :D
my problem with jungle mundo is sustain. while his clear is amazing, his burning agony drains so much health. other than lifesteal quints, how does it work?
On March 25 2012 15:53 courtpanda wrote: my problem with jungle mundo is sustain. while his clear is amazing, his burning agony drains so much health. other than lifesteal quints, how does it work?
i don't run lifesteal/vamp/HP5 and i don't ever get low except the very last camp of my first run... are you running adequate defensive runes, like full armor yellows, and 21 def? open boots + 3 or cloth + 5, making sure you pot at all buff camps at the least. don't really need a pot at wolves or wraiths, i use my other pots on minigolems. what is your path and where are you getting low?
On March 25 2012 15:53 courtpanda wrote: my problem with jungle mundo is sustain. while his clear is amazing, his burning agony drains so much health. other than lifesteal quints, how does it work?
i don't run lifesteal/vamp/HP5 and i don't ever get low except the very last camp of my first run... are you running adequate defensive runes, like full armor yellows, and 21 def? open boots + 3 or cloth + 5, making sure you pot at all buff camps at the least. don't really need a pot at wolves or wraiths, i use my other pots on minigolems. what is your path and where are you getting low?
ive only tried him twice, and it was a while ago so i dont really remember
i start wolves with help -> blue -> wraiths -> red ->golems. i think i was too low to gank so i bluepilled.
On March 25 2012 15:53 courtpanda wrote: my problem with jungle mundo is sustain. while his clear is amazing, his burning agony drains so much health. other than lifesteal quints, how does it work?
i don't run lifesteal/vamp/HP5 and i don't ever get low except the very last camp of my first run... are you running adequate defensive runes, like full armor yellows, and 21 def? open boots + 3 or cloth + 5, making sure you pot at all buff camps at the least. don't really need a pot at wolves or wraiths, i use my other pots on minigolems. what is your path and where are you getting low?
ive only tried him twice, and it was a while ago so i dont really remember
i start wolves with help -> blue -> wraiths -> red ->golems. i think i was too low to gank so i bluepilled.
i don't really think mundo is a "straight path" jungler tbh. that's a lot of big camps when his strength is small camps and ganks that you don't have to commit too hard on. try something like the following, same runepage + masteries, boots +3 or cloth +5
wraiths with help (should take next to no damage, should be regened by the time red spawns) -> red with leash + 1 pot + smite -> level 2 gank at mid or sidelane, or if neither are available, big golems + 1 pot -> wraiths -> level 3 gank mid if available, or wolves + 1 pot -> level 3 gank -> back. by this time you should have enough for ninja tabi regardless of what you started with, which should make it so you never really get low again in the jungle with a couple pots.
that's a really safe "stay on your own side" route that gives you more small camps and more ganks than a standard route. i personally prefer a way more aggressive style like the following (same runes as yours but AS reds instead of arpen, same masteries, cloth + 5)
enemy wraiths -> enemy red with leash + 1 pot + smite -> extremely aggressive gank sidelane that red is on (as in, i know i have cloth + pots, i'm fine taking 1-2 tower hits to ensure both enemy summoners go down or i get the kill) -> run straight to red if i know my opponent started at their blue and hasn't ganked, they'll likely be at my red and i'll already have their red and they'll be taking damage from red with no pull so i can definitely kill them OR take my wolves + wraiths if i saw enemy jungler gank with just blue -> my red with smite + 1 pot -> golems -> gank sidelane -> back -> wolves -> blue -> gank mid -> wraiths -> mini golems -> back -> enemy red and repeat. depending on if i got the kill on any gank and how they reacted to the steal, i will be at least 1, possibly 2 levels higher than the enemy jungler. at that point, i will have tabi, HoG, pots, and a ward. i ward their wraith brush and if i see them ganking somewhere, take their red. if i don't see them, i assess if they are giving their second blue to their mid or if they are going to come to red. if they come to red, i kill them. otherwise i steal red, gank that sidelane and the cycle continues. if i'm 5 at this point, enemy jungler is 4, and enemy mid comes to help, it will likely be a 1 for 1 trade. however if i'm 6 (i got a kill, both his red and my red, my own blue, didn't get counterjungled, and some lane exp from a gank), i will 100% kill the enemy jungler, 100% survive a mid attack, and 30-40% kill the enemy mid too. once you get this far ahead, you just spend the entire game on the opponent's side of the map, killing them whenever they're dumb enough to enter their own jungle
i know that expanded a lot more than what you wanted, but i hope i answered your question at the beginning of my rant too XD
On March 25 2012 15:53 courtpanda wrote: my problem with jungle mundo is sustain. while his clear is amazing, his burning agony drains so much health. other than lifesteal quints, how does it work?
i don't run lifesteal/vamp/HP5 and i don't ever get low except the very last camp of my first run... are you running adequate defensive runes, like full armor yellows, and 21 def? open boots + 3 or cloth + 5, making sure you pot at all buff camps at the least. don't really need a pot at wolves or wraiths, i use my other pots on minigolems. what is your path and where are you getting low?
ive only tried him twice, and it was a while ago so i dont really remember
i start wolves with help -> blue -> wraiths -> red ->golems. i think i was too low to gank so i bluepilled.
Burning Agony kinda mediocre early game. Get E first it crazy steroid, then Q for the ganks. I dunno, how I start depend on my team. If they need Ganks I start boots three, if not I start vamp.
I never really have problem clearing whole jungle and ganking either way... personally. I've been running flat HP quints, 3 ArPen reds, 6 AS reds, and AS blues and I just breeze through jungles with 9/21/0.
I dunno why/how, but I thought same as you and then suddenly... it just worked. Play a few practice games, you'll figure it out.
/shrug.
I'd definitely say Mundo is a lot harder to jungle than most except for maybe a LeeSin, but once you figure it out he farms well, ganks well, and is just awesome.
definitely do not max E on mundo nor negate his W. why turn the fastest AoE clearer into a single-target clearer with no innate AS boost or auto-reset? i don't even touch E til level 10 most of the time
On March 25 2012 16:39 gtrsrs wrote: definitely do not max E on mundo nor negate his W. why turn the fastest AoE clearer into a single-target clearer with no innate AS boost or auto-reset? i don't even touch E til level 10 most of the time
a lvl in E for the + 50 ad is really good I dont know why you wouldnt atleast get a level in it, makes no real sense.
W is first priority on jungling, but E is critical for champ vs champ interactions with mundo. 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100 free base AD is nothing to scoff at, not to mention the bonus from % hp missing. Granted, I don't play much jungle mundo, mostly top when I do end up playing him, but E needs to be the second priority after whatever other skill u max first (cleaver in lane, agony in jungle)
idk i don't run any armor pen and none of his other skills scale off of AD, and getting auto attacks off is pretty hard in ganks unless you already have red + land cleavers... in which case W probably out-damages the + damage from E anyway if you can stick to someone
On March 25 2012 16:39 gtrsrs wrote: definitely do not max E on mundo nor negate his W. why turn the fastest AoE clearer into a single-target clearer with no innate AS boost or auto-reset? i don't even touch E til level 10 most of the time
Oh, I didn't mean max E first...
That silly.
R->W->Q->E, EQWWW. Level 1 E way better at clearing jungle than level 1 W.
On March 25 2012 17:03 courtpanda wrote: if you start blue, which is faster, going E->W or W->E?
i can see how (in theory) E would clear blue faster, then the 1 point in W would clear wolves and wraiths
E much stronger at clearing big camps. They do about the same amount of damage to a single target at level 1, but you take like a tenth of the self inflicted damage from E that you do from W which makes it much safer.
I go E->Q though because it makes for the best level 2 ganks. You land two cleavers and E boosted autos things die so fast. Then you mundo, so even if you fail you just farm yourself back into the game ezpz anyway.
Wolves will not give you enough experience to level up, so the question is W wolves blue E wolves blue EW blue wolves
These things are true: E kills blue buff faster and leaves you with more health. W kills wolves much faster and leaves you with about as much health. Help on wolves and blue almost completely negates these differences.
So, if you can trust your team to do a good job of leashing blue and hurting wolves for you, you should focus on which is faster/safer for clearing the rest of the jungle and which is stronger for ganking. The answer is: Q first is strongest for ganking, but makes jungling slow and impossible and isn't really worth it. In ganks, the E vs W tradeoff is questionable, and personally I feel them to be very close in terms of ganking power. For jungling, W is significantly faster in terms of clear speed, but less safe and slower on buffs. W also requires spell vamp quints for it to be even remotely safe.
If you can't trust your team/for some reason can't get a leash, E blue W wolves is preferable to W wolves blue or E wolves blue.
So is it worth it to get mundo for jungle if I don't have have spellvamp runes? Have enough for Shyv but I was thinking I could save the ip for other more important runes plus get a champ that's not banned a lot.
Wow. People in here saying don't get E at all? /mindblown
Always get one point of E by level 4. Typical is W>E>W>Q, but W>Q>W>E if you do level 2 gank.
On March 27 2012 04:54 mordek wrote: So is it worth it to get mundo for jungle if I don't have have spellvamp runes? Have enough for Shyv but I was thinking I could save the ip for other more important runes plus get a champ that's not banned a lot.
You don't even need spell vamp runes. Actually I don't think it's even good to use spellvamp runes on jungle mundo. Armor/MR(scaling or not doesnt really matter) is standard.
For quints and reds you can use anywhere from all aspd or a mix of aspd and arp.
========================================================================== Gonna write a little mini-guide here. I'm 1800 rating and it's been working for me and it's what SV's been doing.
Summoners: Smite/Exhaust
Masteries: 9/21/0 - Tree - Grabbing the MPen mastery instead of the ArPen one because most of your damage will be magical (W and Q).
21/9/0 - Tree - Can grab both penetration masteries. You get a bit low with this setup, but autos with E does a LOT of damage.
Jungling: Wolves>Blue: Start W always if you arent invading. Pretty standard. Try to get a good pull. If you can get away with not smiting, go to enemy red after blue and just steal it and gank bottom/top depending on what side, then gank. If get a bad pull, just proceed with jungle.
Enemy Wraiths>Red: Same thing. Start W, leave 1 wraith. Do the red. If bottom or top is being agressive, get a point in Q and go in after the minion wave passes by and its a free kill with exhaust. If you're lucky, you can even get a double kill bottom. Otherwise get E for jungling and wait for level 4 for Q.
If the enemy lane is passive, don't show yourself and just proceed with the jungle because if enemy jungler sees you top or bottom, they can just take your blue/red depending on his start.
Items: Start boots 3 if you plan on just finishing your own jungle and then ganking. Cloth 5 for heavy jungling/counterjungling.
Try to get a heart of gold ASAP, and then finish your boots next (tabi or mercs). If enemy is warding a lot, get an oracle after you get HoG and Boots2.
As mundo, you should be consistantly be farming and be much higher cs than enemy jungler. Know when to gank, most of the time it's almost always better to farm then fail a gank.
I've tried mundo tonight a bit in solo queue and tbf I failed really hard. People here say you never get low after your first clear but I didn't really find it to be the case. This leaves a tossup between saving r for a speedboost/dive when ganking or using it asap while jungling. Also because it's solo queue I didn't really feel safe to counterjungle at any point (probably due to lack of experience, but also because I'd be at like 60%ish after a full clear and the prospect of getting face to face with the enemy didn't really excite me).
I think main problem I had is that I got used to wriggles junglers (noc/olaf) and thus didn't feel comfortable without knowing that I won't take any noticeable damage at all after taking any camp. With mundo and his ridiculously low AA damage and the fact that he actually drains his health to clear it's a completely different experience.
Mundo is very resistant to counter-jungling, with his perma 40% and quick clear times if the enemy is roaming into your jungle alone they will most likely find your creeps either dead or you are there with a cleaver to their face. Not many can kill you or get away with being in your jungle 1v1.
I will not usually counter-jungle with Mundo unless I see the enemy jungler on the map, your only "get away" skill is your ult and if you walk over a ward or find the enemy jungler you will have a tough time if the laners come get you. You're not like Udyr/Shyvana where you have constant high movespeed or Lee Sin with wall jumps.
The difference between Mundo and other junglers I find is that he never has to go back to base - ever. I'm fine going into a gank and going straight back to jungling at 20% hp, his ult is on such a low cd you can use it after every single jungle clear. Just keep actively clearing your jungle and you will always come out ahead of cs and levels of the enemy jungler, it's not unusual to find yourself 1-2 levels ahead. You're constantly on the map ready to counter-gank or counter-jungle if you see the enemy jungler, and have usually have time to jump in a lane and pressure with cleavers and go for some risky ganks when exhaust is up.
He really isn't a "tank" though, his ult is easily countered by MF/Trist/Ignite and that's his only real tank steroid - any other champ with the same items is actually more tanky because of the HP use on skills. Also WW can easily hit 500+ on his Q on you, I would pick mundo into any of those heroes.
On March 27 2012 04:44 Tooplark wrote: Wolves will not give you enough experience to level up, so the question is W wolves blue E wolves blue EW blue wolves
These things are true: E kills blue buff faster and leaves you with more health. W kills wolves much faster and leaves you with about as much health. Help on wolves and blue almost completely negates these differences.
So, if you can trust your team to do a good job of leashing blue and hurting wolves for you, you should focus on which is faster/safer for clearing the rest of the jungle and which is stronger for ganking. The answer is: Q first is strongest for ganking, but makes jungling slow and impossible and isn't really worth it. In ganks, the E vs W tradeoff is questionable, and personally I feel them to be very close in terms of ganking power. For jungling, W is significantly faster in terms of clear speed, but less safe and slower on buffs. W also requires spell vamp quints for it to be even remotely safe.
If you can't trust your team/for some reason can't get a leash, E blue W wolves is preferable to W wolves blue or E wolves blue.
Thing is, even at my mid level ELO (about 1500, give or take 100~) people suck at leashing. The number of times i've seen people just reset red makes me so incredibly sad.
You're red resets with E it no problem at all... your red resets with W you are screwed.
On March 27 2012 08:59 greggy wrote: I've tried mundo tonight a bit in solo queue and tbf I failed really hard. People here say you never get low after your first clear but I didn't really find it to be the case. This leaves a tossup between saving r for a speedboost/dive when ganking or using it asap while jungling. Also because it's solo queue I didn't really feel safe to counterjungle at any point (probably due to lack of experience, but also because I'd be at like 60%ish after a full clear and the prospect of getting face to face with the enemy didn't really excite me).
I think main problem I had is that I got used to wriggles junglers (noc/olaf) and thus didn't feel comfortable without knowing that I won't take any noticeable damage at all after taking any camp. With mundo and his ridiculously low AA damage and the fact that he actually drains his health to clear it's a completely different experience.
what runes and item start? The lowest you should fall under is like 30 percent when doing red cause you didnt chug pots in the beginning.
On March 27 2012 08:59 greggy wrote: I've tried mundo tonight a bit in solo queue and tbf I failed really hard. People here say you never get low after your first clear but I didn't really find it to be the case. This leaves a tossup between saving r for a speedboost/dive when ganking or using it asap while jungling. Also because it's solo queue I didn't really feel safe to counterjungle at any point (probably due to lack of experience, but also because I'd be at like 60%ish after a full clear and the prospect of getting face to face with the enemy didn't really excite me).
I think main problem I had is that I got used to wriggles junglers (noc/olaf) and thus didn't feel comfortable without knowing that I won't take any noticeable damage at all after taking any camp. With mundo and his ridiculously low AA damage and the fact that he actually drains his health to clear it's a completely different experience.
what runes and item start? The lowest you should fall under is like 30 percent when doing red cause you didnt chug pots in the beginning.
I've tried all of boots3, cloth5 and vamp but ended up sticking with cloth5. Running 7/21/0 with arp/as reds, armor yellow and flat mr blue, arp quints (for total of 12arp). I'm only level 28 but I doubt it makes much of a difference. My main problem is not being able to decide what to do after wolves blue wraiths - if I do red, I drop pretty low and struggle to do gols and then have to back (or do wraith wolves again) because I'm too low to gank effectively. Or do I take red and gank at 3 with all of my spells and then take whichever small camps I can?
Also, how do you use your ult? Do you use it on cd when clearing or do you save it as free ghost when ganking?
On March 27 2012 08:59 greggy wrote: I've tried mundo tonight a bit in solo queue and tbf I failed really hard. People here say you never get low after your first clear but I didn't really find it to be the case. This leaves a tossup between saving r for a speedboost/dive when ganking or using it asap while jungling. Also because it's solo queue I didn't really feel safe to counterjungle at any point (probably due to lack of experience, but also because I'd be at like 60%ish after a full clear and the prospect of getting face to face with the enemy didn't really excite me).
I think main problem I had is that I got used to wriggles junglers (noc/olaf) and thus didn't feel comfortable without knowing that I won't take any noticeable damage at all after taking any camp. With mundo and his ridiculously low AA damage and the fact that he actually drains his health to clear it's a completely different experience.
what runes and item start? The lowest you should fall under is like 30 percent when doing red cause you didnt chug pots in the beginning.
I've tried all of boots3, cloth5 and vamp but ended up sticking with cloth5. Running 7/21/0 with arp/as reds, armor yellow and flat mr blue, arp quints (for total of 12arp). I'm only level 28 but I doubt it makes much of a difference. My main problem is not being able to decide what to do after wolves blue wraiths - if I do red, I drop pretty low and struggle to do gols and then have to back (or do wraith wolves again) because I'm too low to gank effectively. Or do I take red and gank at 3 with all of my spells and then take whichever small camps I can?
Also, how do you use your ult? Do you use it on cd when clearing or do you save it as free ghost when ganking?
cloth 5 is probably the best opening since you really need the sustain from the potions if you're going to be maxing W, which you should. it also means you can be more fluid in your jungling path since you have a larger effective HP pool to work with. if you did wolves before blue then you should go wolves->blue->wraiths->wolves (you may have to wait a few seconds)->red->wraiths->gols. You use your ult for sustain in jungle and to help you tank better in teamfights. With enough cdr, you can actually blow your ult as soon as the fight starts since if it's drawn out enough, you may sometimes be able to get a second ulti off as the fight ends which may let your team secure objectives, defend, and/or chase better.
On March 27 2012 08:59 greggy wrote: I've tried mundo tonight a bit in solo queue and tbf I failed really hard. People here say you never get low after your first clear but I didn't really find it to be the case. This leaves a tossup between saving r for a speedboost/dive when ganking or using it asap while jungling. Also because it's solo queue I didn't really feel safe to counterjungle at any point (probably due to lack of experience, but also because I'd be at like 60%ish after a full clear and the prospect of getting face to face with the enemy didn't really excite me).
I think main problem I had is that I got used to wriggles junglers (noc/olaf) and thus didn't feel comfortable without knowing that I won't take any noticeable damage at all after taking any camp. With mundo and his ridiculously low AA damage and the fact that he actually drains his health to clear it's a completely different experience.
what runes and item start? The lowest you should fall under is like 30 percent when doing red cause you didnt chug pots in the beginning.
I've tried all of boots3, cloth5 and vamp but ended up sticking with cloth5. Running 7/21/0 with arp/as reds, armor yellow and flat mr blue, arp quints (for total of 12arp). I'm only level 28 but I doubt it makes much of a difference. My main problem is not being able to decide what to do after wolves blue wraiths - if I do red, I drop pretty low and struggle to do gols and then have to back (or do wraith wolves again) because I'm too low to gank effectively. Or do I take red and gank at 3 with all of my spells and then take whichever small camps I can?
Also, how do you use your ult? Do you use it on cd when clearing or do you save it as free ghost when ganking?
Try to chug pots from the beginning. And always do red after wraiths. You waste time waiting for smite. With 5 pots you can clear jungle easily.
Played some more mundo today, and I have to say I'm beginning to rather like it. Won most of my games and really shat on opposing shacos and such :D
The two weak spots I noticed are between 4 and 6 because you have to rely on pots to keep you up instead of ult and the point between tabi/hog and recurve bow/wits before your get some actual damage output. Once I got past those I haven't had a problem at all. Breezing through camps in opposing jungle is quite fun.
On March 27 2012 08:59 greggy wrote: I've tried mundo tonight a bit in solo queue and tbf I failed really hard. People here say you never get low after your first clear but I didn't really find it to be the case. This leaves a tossup between saving r for a speedboost/dive when ganking or using it asap while jungling. Also because it's solo queue I didn't really feel safe to counterjungle at any point (probably due to lack of experience, but also because I'd be at like 60%ish after a full clear and the prospect of getting face to face with the enemy didn't really excite me).
I think main problem I had is that I got used to wriggles junglers (noc/olaf) and thus didn't feel comfortable without knowing that I won't take any noticeable damage at all after taking any camp. With mundo and his ridiculously low AA damage and the fact that he actually drains his health to clear it's a completely different experience.
what runes and item start? The lowest you should fall under is like 30 percent when doing red cause you didnt chug pots in the beginning.
I've tried all of boots3, cloth5 and vamp but ended up sticking with cloth5. Running 7/21/0 with arp/as reds, armor yellow and flat mr blue, arp quints (for total of 12arp). I'm only level 28 but I doubt it makes much of a difference. My main problem is not being able to decide what to do after wolves blue wraiths - if I do red, I drop pretty low and struggle to do gols and then have to back (or do wraith wolves again) because I'm too low to gank effectively. Or do I take red and gank at 3 with all of my spells and then take whichever small camps I can?
Also, how do you use your ult? Do you use it on cd when clearing or do you save it as free ghost when ganking?
On March 27 2012 08:59 greggy wrote: I've tried mundo tonight a bit in solo queue and tbf I failed really hard. People here say you never get low after your first clear but I didn't really find it to be the case. This leaves a tossup between saving r for a speedboost/dive when ganking or using it asap while jungling. Also because it's solo queue I didn't really feel safe to counterjungle at any point (probably due to lack of experience, but also because I'd be at like 60%ish after a full clear and the prospect of getting face to face with the enemy didn't really excite me).
I think main problem I had is that I got used to wriggles junglers (noc/olaf) and thus didn't feel comfortable without knowing that I won't take any noticeable damage at all after taking any camp. With mundo and his ridiculously low AA damage and the fact that he actually drains his health to clear it's a completely different experience.
what runes and item start? The lowest you should fall under is like 30 percent when doing red cause you didnt chug pots in the beginning.
I've tried all of boots3, cloth5 and vamp but ended up sticking with cloth5. Running 7/21/0 with arp/as reds, armor yellow and flat mr blue, arp quints (for total of 12arp). I'm only level 28 but I doubt it makes much of a difference. My main problem is not being able to decide what to do after wolves blue wraiths - if I do red, I drop pretty low and struggle to do gols and then have to back (or do wraith wolves again) because I'm too low to gank effectively. Or do I take red and gank at 3 with all of my spells and then take whichever small camps I can?
Also, how do you use your ult? Do you use it on cd when clearing or do you save it as free ghost when ganking?
On March 27 2012 08:59 greggy wrote: I've tried mundo tonight a bit in solo queue and tbf I failed really hard. People here say you never get low after your first clear but I didn't really find it to be the case. This leaves a tossup between saving r for a speedboost/dive when ganking or using it asap while jungling. Also because it's solo queue I didn't really feel safe to counterjungle at any point (probably due to lack of experience, but also because I'd be at like 60%ish after a full clear and the prospect of getting face to face with the enemy didn't really excite me).
I think main problem I had is that I got used to wriggles junglers (noc/olaf) and thus didn't feel comfortable without knowing that I won't take any noticeable damage at all after taking any camp. With mundo and his ridiculously low AA damage and the fact that he actually drains his health to clear it's a completely different experience.
what runes and item start? The lowest you should fall under is like 30 percent when doing red cause you didnt chug pots in the beginning.
I've tried all of boots3, cloth5 and vamp but ended up sticking with cloth5. Running 7/21/0 with arp/as reds, armor yellow and flat mr blue, arp quints (for total of 12arp). I'm only level 28 but I doubt it makes much of a difference. My main problem is not being able to decide what to do after wolves blue wraiths - if I do red, I drop pretty low and struggle to do gols and then have to back (or do wraith wolves again) because I'm too low to gank effectively. Or do I take red and gank at 3 with all of my spells and then take whichever small camps I can?
Also, how do you use your ult? Do you use it on cd when clearing or do you save it as free ghost when ganking?
On March 27 2012 08:59 greggy wrote: I've tried mundo tonight a bit in solo queue and tbf I failed really hard. People here say you never get low after your first clear but I didn't really find it to be the case. This leaves a tossup between saving r for a speedboost/dive when ganking or using it asap while jungling. Also because it's solo queue I didn't really feel safe to counterjungle at any point (probably due to lack of experience, but also because I'd be at like 60%ish after a full clear and the prospect of getting face to face with the enemy didn't really excite me).
I think main problem I had is that I got used to wriggles junglers (noc/olaf) and thus didn't feel comfortable without knowing that I won't take any noticeable damage at all after taking any camp. With mundo and his ridiculously low AA damage and the fact that he actually drains his health to clear it's a completely different experience.
what runes and item start? The lowest you should fall under is like 30 percent when doing red cause you didnt chug pots in the beginning.
I've tried all of boots3, cloth5 and vamp but ended up sticking with cloth5. Running 7/21/0 with arp/as reds, armor yellow and flat mr blue, arp quints (for total of 12arp). I'm only level 28 but I doubt it makes much of a difference. My main problem is not being able to decide what to do after wolves blue wraiths - if I do red, I drop pretty low and struggle to do gols and then have to back (or do wraith wolves again) because I'm too low to gank effectively. Or do I take red and gank at 3 with all of my spells and then take whichever small camps I can?
Also, how do you use your ult? Do you use it on cd when clearing or do you save it as free ghost when ganking?
only 7 21 0? wheres the other 2 points?
It's right in the next sentence, bro >_>
guess my skimming over skills missed that part >_>
just played a game as mundo, normal queue ~1300-1400 elo-ish level.
jungled they had a jungle twitch. proceed to LOL, took wolves and blue, then went into twitchs jungle, took his wraiths and golems, he pops out, tries to kill me, i get him down to 50 hp and he backs off, i take his red, he steals (turns out hes still there), but i kill him (barely). then the rest of the game snowballs, i clear my jungle and either gank or go straight to his jungle, i kill him at his next blue, get a few successful ganks, etc.
for the rest of the game he gets 0 buffs. by the time i hit 12, twitch is only at level 7. game, im 12-2 at 25 minutes
Smite + Exhaust extremely strong. Very good for dueling/invades and small skirmishes, and in ganks if you land a cleaver and have exhaust up stuff die.
General principle on bruisers: take flash only if you have a skill that abuses flash (i.e. Udyr flash stun, maokai flash root, or WW/skarner flash ults are very powerful). Guys like mundo, olaf, shyvana can skip flash because it doesn't help them gank or initiate, and should take exhaust/ghost instead.
A typical route (assuming 9/21 cloth5) would be wolves>blue>wraiths>wolves (spawns in 2-3 secs after you reach camp)>red> either wraiths or golems. Wraiths do less damage so you should be at full health double buff ready to gank. Otherewise I take golems>back (buy tabi)>wolves>wraiths>golems.
EDIT: I skill WEWQ, R>W>Q>E, although a level in Q at level 2 or 3 is good if you want to gank before hitting 4.
I haven't tested a pure powerlevel build but I would probably go 21/9 with MS quints and go wraiths red gols wraiths wolves blue wraiths gols back (buy tabi) wolves wraiths gols. Red buff doesn't increase clear speed that much (does help on blue though) and you're more limited by how fast you can get to camps than by kill speed.
Mercs are important against certain teams. But mercs and your W are multiplicative and not additive, meaning it suffers diminishing returns, and mercs are way more expensive than tabi, so only get mercs against teams that you really need it against. Having t2 boots early makes your ganks way better, and the armor/reduced damage are also really good, and allow you to build tabi -> hog -> NMM item (visage or wits) or more health without being gimped on armor.
You also tend to start cloth5 so it builds easily from your first trip back.
So I just jungled mundo for the first time. Was fun. Our singed carried top vs a placement leaguer shyvana, and I went 6-1 dieing right before they surrendered :/ Bot fed because our lulu was another placement leaguer and our caitlyn had some lag issues so she didn't get much cs. Our ahri had to switch from mid to stop their ezrael from getting more fed. It's stupid. All these games are decided by which team has fewer inexperienced players.
Just started mundo. He farms fast and can counterjungle amumu like amumu's not even there, but I think that come mid and late game his clear speeds started to taper off. Anyways it got to the point where his clear speeds were barely acceptable, like just above udyr's. I went R>W>E>Q. Does anyone build AP on him? I went wriggles and phage. I know wriggles isn't necessary now, but it was my first game as mundo. Does shyvana's clears remain consistently fast throughout the game?
So I just jungled mundo for the first time. Was fun. Our singed carried top vs a placement leaguer shyvana, and I went 6-1 dieing right before they surrendered :/ Bot fed because our lulu was another placement leaguer and our caitlyn had some lag issues so she didn't get much cs. Our ahri had to switch from mid to stop their ezrael from getting more fed. It's stupid. All these games are decided by which team has fewer inexperienced players.
Just started mundo. He farms fast and can counterjungle amumu like amumu's not even there, but I think that come mid and late game his clear speeds started to taper off. Anyways it got to the point where his clear speeds were barely acceptable, like just above udyr's. I went R>W>E>Q. Does anyone build AP on him? I went wriggles and phage. I know wriggles isn't necessary now, but it was my first game as mundo. Does shyvana's clears remain consistently fast throughout the game?
mid and late game farming the jungle isn't really what you're going for anyways. besides how is "just above udyr's" barely acceptable???
I've been playing a lot of Mundo lately, just tanking and mawing through the enemy team.
My question is on the build, spirit visage is an AMAZING item for Mundo, but do you guys think its worth it to sell Spirit visage and get something better in the very late game (Like another MR item or whatever, perhaps GA)? Where you have 6 items and one being SV.
I'm trying out Mundo and there seem to be two different play styles that I'm considering.
Maxing E with 1 point Q for ganks and heart of gold then getting on hit items like phage and wits end. Going 9/21/0 with the armor pen mastery with attack speed runes. or Maxing W and maxing Q second? Heart of gold into tanky items like warmogs or spirit visage. 9/21/0 with magic pen mastery. Thornmail or Sunfire vs heavier AD comps.
On April 12 2012 07:27 obesechicken13 wrote: Just started mundo. He farms fast and can counterjungle amumu like amumu's not even there, but I think that come mid and late game his clear speeds started to taper off. Anyways it got to the point where his clear speeds were barely acceptable, like just above udyr's. I went R>W>E>Q. Does anyone build AP on him? I went wriggles and phage. I know wriggles isn't necessary now, but it was my first game as mundo. Does shyvana's clears remain consistently fast throughout the game?
Late game you should be solo pushing or teamfighting. Small camps in jungle aren't worth the time, and buffs usually go to other people. People do build AP on him but only in TLmades when they're goofing off. I mean, you have one AP ratio and it's .2/second. That's 100% not worth it.
On April 12 2012 08:48 RogerX wrote: I've been playing a lot of Mundo lately, just tanking and mawing through the enemy team.
My question is on the build, spirit visage is an AMAZING item for Mundo, but do you guys think its worth it to sell Spirit visage and get something better in the very late game (Like another MR item or whatever, perhaps GA)? Where you have 6 items and one being SV.
Remember that spirit visage gets better as you get more health and level up your ult. That 15% increased healing? That becomes an extra 10% of your max health with level 3 ult. There are actually very few things better than spirit visage late game for mundo.
On April 12 2012 09:30 BlackMagister wrote: I'm trying out Mundo and there seem to be two different play styles that I'm considering.
Maxing E with 1 point Q for ganks and heart of gold then getting on hit items like phage and wits end. Going 9/21/0 with the armor pen mastery with attack speed runes. or Maxing W and maxing Q second? Heart of gold into tanky items like warmogs or spirit visage. 9/21/0 with magic pen mastery. Thornmail or Sunfire vs heavier AD comps.
PRECISELY. Here is a quick list of tradeoffs: E first keeps you higher health (you should be at about half when you finish red). You're stronger in 1v1s and small skirmishes, and you kill buff creeps faster. You can threaten dragon a few levels earlier, though you generally need some help. W first clears small camps much, much faster. Not that E is slow, but W is blazing godlike fast. You can afford to build 100% tank and do plenty of damage. Not that you have to; wit's end is a common item on this style. Those are the two advantages to W first. They are very, very large ones.
Also, for the E build, it's better to get cheap aura items and be an offtank that chases people down or peels for your carry. Phage isn't generally worth it, since you have cleaverspam, cc reduction and mad speedz. Also, as I've mentioned previously, I don't like Wit's on my E-first builds, since I get lots of MR from some combination of Spirit Visage, Merc Treads, QSS, and runes. Both builds should mostly focus on tank.
Well, when you end up with 132 cs as jungle Mundo you kno your first game went badly. He's really fun early game tho, fast, good ganks, and his ult really helps in teamfight, on top of being on a short cd. I'm a bad farmer in general but I feel like I suffered a lot from having to camp top lane early on (he didn't commit on my lv2 gank so we lost FB), then bot lane (who was winning, securing drakes and making it win harder), it helped the team but I didn't farmed as much, and I even began being counterjungled when top refused to buy any wards and got camped and caught everytime.
I built tabi->HoG->SV->Aegis->wit's->randuin's then the game ended. Wit's didn't feel that good as we were well into midgame (and Veigar was fed), a neg would probabl have been better and allowed me to finish randuin's earlier for Kog/Jax. Then I guess something like Zeke's as 6th item and turning neg into QSS or FoN instead.
On April 12 2012 08:48 RogerX wrote: I've been playing a lot of Mundo lately, just tanking and mawing through the enemy team.
My question is on the build, spirit visage is an AMAZING item for Mundo, but do you guys think its worth it to sell Spirit visage and get something better in the very late game (Like another MR item or whatever, perhaps GA)? Where you have 6 items and one being SV.
Remember that spirit visage gets better as you get more health and level up your ult. That 15% increased healing? That becomes an extra 10% of your max health with level 3 ult. There are actually very few things better than spirit visage late game for mundo.
Unless you already have three Warmogs, you actually gain more HP back with Warmogs as apposed to SV...
Imo SV better though because it cheaper and you get CDR. Call me crazy but having SV makes you much scarier than just having Giants belt/Ruby/pots instead.
I don't like spirit visage because it doesn't give you any real regen until your ultimate starts getting good. I'd say it's a good buy after level 16 if you need more MR.
Btw, in which situations would you get Zeke's? It seems good if your team has another auto-attacker, CDR, AS, some sustain through spellvamp and the aura. If I want HP there's SV too which also gives MR, or Aegis, so my support can rush Shurelya. Then again if I get both my support can still bring Aegis to double the aura for both of us, but I don't think it's worth it, and if I get Zeke's and Aegis, well... he better be a good ward bitch with all those items he doesn't get to build, I guess Shurelya + Locket would be good items for him to add to the team.
Do you consider warmogs core? I haven't built it in any of the 3 games I tried him yet, stacking HP with a mix of HoG->Randuin's/SV/Zeke's/Aegis instead.
On April 12 2012 08:48 RogerX wrote: I've been playing a lot of Mundo lately, just tanking and mawing through the enemy team.
My question is on the build, spirit visage is an AMAZING item for Mundo, but do you guys think its worth it to sell Spirit visage and get something better in the very late game (Like another MR item or whatever, perhaps GA)? Where you have 6 items and one being SV.
Remember that spirit visage gets better as you get more health and level up your ult. That 15% increased healing? That becomes an extra 10% of your max health with level 3 ult. There are actually very few things better than spirit visage late game for mundo.
Unless you already have three Warmogs, you actually gain more HP back with Warmogs as apposed to SV...
Imo SV better though because it cheaper and you get CDR. Call me crazy but having SV makes you much scarier than just having Giants belt/Ruby/pots instead.
On April 22 2012 01:14 nyxnyxnyx wrote: am i the only one who does a more magic dmg oriented build?
like max W, mpen reds, 9 point offense masteries being put in 10% mpen mastery, skipping E, buying wota etcetc?
i definitely wouldn't ever go wota, but i can see mundo being a good replacement for trundle on a poke build, providing his own poke and still making this team basically unapproachable. in that situation i'd take 9/21/0
but usually i just want to get right up in someone's face and melt them with W, eat a couple hard CCs and exhausts, then back off and let my team clean up
Been doing a lot of Jungle Mundo (and Shy) the past two days with moderate success.
Using Rincent masteries 9/12/9, though not sure of just full on 0 21 9 would be better.
Tried early Wit's End build but I ended up being way too squishy. Settled on Boots, HoG, Warmog's, Omen/FoN atm and it works well. Just tank shit forever and not die.
eww gross! Jokes aside, are you finding Mundo has faster jungling speed? I'm starting to see it myself & he has just a high invade potential, so probably explains why we've been seeing so many Mundo's lately.
I don't really think mundo is better than shyvana, just similar Shyv slightly better counterjungler IMO because dragon form and w zoom make you really hard to catch She's also slightly better teamfighter once the initiations have been thrown out, dragon such a great skill and the aoe armor melt is godlike
Mundo better at clearing his own jungle and tanking after Mundo better at the pre-fight shenanigans Mundo also can do a bit more damage or be a bit more tanky than shy but not usually both
Both are Pretty tits right now though. Them + udyr and skarner should pretty much be your jungle staples atm
i've been doing mvmt peed quints, attak speed reds, arm yellows, mr blues R>W>Q>E I've been getting 21 in defense masterys but i'm unsure of where to spend my extra 9 points, from my point of view, 9 in offense looks better than 9 in defense cause buff duration is not that critical on you and the mvmt speed increase is negligible with mvmt speed quints and boots. Now for the offense i don't know whether to get the mpen or armpen mastery. Cleaver deals alot of damage in poking especially with mpen, W hurts a lot too. But endgame E is a beast especially with some extra attkspeed and you're not itemizing penetration, so armpen sound very good too.
My main problem during games is the inicial clear, doran shield works but leaves you very vulnerable during the clear, boots 3 you are very low on the end of the clear... I really dislike cloth 5 in the new jungle but i feel like i have no choice for mundo, getting it and doing wraiths -> red -> doubles -> wraiths -> wolves -> blue while decently healthy. Any magic i'm missing in the beggining?
On April 22 2012 16:42 patochaos wrote: I think the only way to start boots+3 as Mundo and not get dangerously low is to have spell vamp quints.
Anyone tried this? Im on the verge of buying the Quints instead of Nautilus, but not sure if they make such a big difference.
Alternatively you can start E instead of W and just clear safer. Level 2 ganks with E and Q are just as good as level 2 ganks with W and Q, but you are much safer, clear big camps faster, and take slightly less damage at little camps.
It is significant'y slower, but since your mundo you can catch up really easily. I think W superior if you geta really good leash, but in soloQ I prefer to go EQWWW(RWQE) because it just safer.
On April 22 2012 16:42 patochaos wrote: I think the only way to start boots+3 as Mundo and not get dangerously low is to have spell vamp quints.
Anyone tried this? Im on the verge of buying the Quints instead of Nautilus, but not sure if they make such a big difference.
i run 10 arpen from reds, 3 AD reds, 2 AD quints, 1 armor quint, armor yellows, 1 crit chance blue, and the rest MR/level blues 0/21/9 and open boots first and never get dangerously low
On April 22 2012 16:42 patochaos wrote: I think the only way to start boots+3 as Mundo and not get dangerously low is to have spell vamp quints.
Anyone tried this? Im on the verge of buying the Quints instead of Nautilus, but not sure if they make such a big difference.
Spell Vamp, Life Steal, and hp5 Quints are all essentially equivalent in terms of providing sustain for Mundo on his first clear. After his first clear it doesn't matter what your first item was.
If I want to jungle Mundo (or I guess any jungle at all), how essential is having the runes for it? I'm only level 23 so my masteries won't all be there, and I don't really have the points to buy runes but I want to try it.
Also, does blue do anything for Mundo other than cooldown reduction?
On April 23 2012 06:03 Dalguno wrote: If I want to jungle Mundo (or I guess any jungle at all), how essential is having the runes for it? I'm only level 23 so my masteries won't all be there, and I don't really have the points to buy runes but I want to try it.
Also, does blue do anything for Mundo other than cooldown reduction?
I'd say runes pretty important for mundo jungle, just like any jungler. You can do it without runes, but it wont be easy... start Cloth+5 and get a good leash. You should be okay.
Seeing how blue onyl give you CDR and mana regen (and mundo has no mana) yeah blue only useful for CDR. It is good for levels though, gives you a lot of experience so I wouldn't pawn the first one of to mid or anything like that.
Not to say it is a bad idea, they could get snowballed pretty hard by getting a level 1 blue mid.
On April 23 2012 06:03 Dalguno wrote: If I want to jungle Mundo (or I guess any jungle at all), how essential is having the runes for it? I'm only level 23 so my masteries won't all be there, and I don't really have the points to buy runes but I want to try it.
Also, does blue do anything for Mundo other than cooldown reduction?
Mundo without runes is pretty risky. You can do it, but you'll be at very low health and since you're level 23, you probably don't want to be running around at 200hp.
If you're looking for someone to jungle without a full tune page try Warwick.
I'm always amazed at players who can calmly provide insight while playing. I'm a stammering idiot at the best of times so I can't imagine how unintelligible I'd sound if I tried to speak and play at the same time.
Just curious about your jungling route and starting items. Do you always start boots? What do you think of cloth+5? I haven't accumulated enough experience to try ranked yet so sticking to normals where leashes aren't as common I guess.
On April 22 2012 14:52 gtrsrs wrote: penta kill as mundo in ranked game caught it on my stream it's a game i talked through every action as i played started game really poorly, came back
On April 23 2012 06:58 bruteMax wrote: Hey grats on your penta.
I'm always amazed at players who can calmly provide insight while playing. I'm a stammering idiot at the best of times so I can't imagine how unintelligible I'd sound if I tried to speak and play at the same time.
Just curious about your jungling route and starting items. Do you always start boots? What do you think of cloth+5? I haven't accumulated enough experience to try ranked yet so sticking to normals where leashes aren't as common I guess.
On April 22 2012 14:52 gtrsrs wrote: penta kill as mundo in ranked game caught it on my stream it's a game i talked through every action as i played started game really poorly, came back
on mundo and udyr I always start boots. Both clear safely and quickly enough that you can afford time to gank if you so choose, and boots really facilitate early ganks. In a situation where I know I wouldn't be getting a leash, like what happened in the vod, I would start cloth + 5 on mundo. As you saw, I got too low to gank and was about half a level behind where I should have been for the first 2 clears
For route, it all depends on my mid and the opposing jungler. Here's how I would categorize it: Non-blue reliant mids: kennen, vlad, panth, etc Blue-reliant jungles: udyr, skarner, amumu, etc Early-red junglers: shyv, shaco, lee, jarvan, etc
Against blue reliant jungle: enemy wraiths and red, my wraiths and red, wolves, blue, wraiths and golems With blue reliant mids: wraiths red wolves wraiths golems wolves give first blue to ally (this is standard in arranged play) Against early red opponents: my wraiths and red, their blue, my golems wraiths wolves blue
Because of his speed and low clear times, mundo has a ton of options
ok thx. I always assumed first blue goes to jungler since no AP can make use of the cd reduction and mana regen early game. But your route makes it so that blue wouldn't be taken until 4-5min anyways so that's good to know.
Wont lifesteal quints be better than spellvamp since the damage from W is AOE? 6% spellvamp is effectively 2% in this case. On the other hand, due to E you will get back significantly more HP with spellvamp quints.
i think the combination of W being your main source of damage on all the little stuff and Q doing a bunch of single target damage against all the big stuff is what makes spell vamp good.
idk about the math but I would think that hp/5 quints would be better than spellvamp due to the fact that most of your damage is from W and E when you clear camps.
the math that montegomery did shows that if you plan on ganking ever, hp5 is literally just as good as spell vamp. if you spend 100% of your time going camp to camp, spell vamp are slightly better
but again, i reiterate, i run armor and AD quints, with boots + 3, and have no trouble ganking after a clear or during the middle of a clear
spell vamp, lifesteal, hp5 are NOT required to jungle mundo
On April 23 2012 14:27 miicah wrote: idk about the math but I would think that hp/5 quints would be better than spellvamp due to the fact that most of your damage is from W and E when you clear camps.
I could be wrong though.
Uh? E doesn't interact in any sort with spellvamp. It's a damage boost, spellvamp only works with spells that actually inflict damage themselves.
I like the SV style pure armor on him. You are gonna be building a lot of pure health anyway, so extra armor is only a good thing. I guess the only real issue is if you feel like 5 pots is a waste of money, but considering that you basically are free to do whatever you want all early game off them, I think the trade for armor is good.
On April 23 2012 14:27 miicah wrote: idk about the math but I would think that hp/5 quints would be better than spellvamp due to the fact that most of your damage is from W and E when you clear camps.
I could be wrong though.
Uh? E doesn't interact in any sort with spellvamp. It's a damage boost, spellvamp only works with spells that actually inflict damage themselves.
Yeah if you read my quote I said hp/5 would be better than spellvamp BECAUSE your damage comes from W and E; it was assumed knowledge that e doesn't benefit from spellvamp so hp/5 would win over it.
On April 23 2012 14:27 miicah wrote: idk about the math but I would think that hp/5 quints would be better than spellvamp due to the fact that most of your damage is from W and E when you clear camps.
I could be wrong though.
Uh? E doesn't interact in any sort with spellvamp. It's a damage boost, spellvamp only works with spells that actually inflict damage themselves.
Yeah if you read my quote I said hp/5 would be better than spellvamp BECAUSE your damage comes from W and E; it was assumed knowledge that e doesn't benefit from spellvamp so hp/5 would win over it.
Round-a-bout way of saying it but yeah
Spell Vamp works on Q and Smite, which roughly brings it even with hp5 for early clears. It also scales with ranks in W.
If you need to use quints for sustain on Mundo pick whichever one suits your needs. hp5 is better for early ganking, Spell Vamp is best for clearing, and Life Steal is best if you frequently end up being an AD powerhouse in the mid-late game.
On April 22 2012 16:42 patochaos wrote: I think the only way to start boots+3 as Mundo and not get dangerously low is to have spell vamp quints.
Huh? I stick to AS quints and it's not a massive problem.You might have to chug all 3 pots, but when you finish your first clear, you're usually at yellow-low green. It might not be the most ideal for ganking, but you can easily stick around and farm until HoG.
On April 24 2012 03:05 Nonexistent wrote: Have you guys tried the Dr. Pwndo build? boots of sorc for cleaver dmg, warmog, force of nature, atma impaler, warmog, warmog. gl gh never die
whenever I try rushing wormogs I do terrible. just my experience, then again I never go for cleaver or sorc boots. is this a jungle build or a laning build? because i feel like it would be terrible for jungling.
On April 24 2012 03:05 Nonexistent wrote: Have you guys tried the Dr. Pwndo build? boots of sorc for cleaver dmg, warmog, force of nature, atma impaler, warmog, warmog. gl gh never die
whenever I try rushing wormogs I do terrible. just my experience, then again I never go for cleaver or sorc boots. is this a jungle build or a laning build? because i feel like it would be terrible for jungling.
that's because you shouldnt rush it unless you're allready doing well
If I get a couple of early ganks in as jungler I'll make warmogs my first item after t2 boots since giant's belt is more affordable. After that it's either atmas or sv depending on how my team is doing.
can you explain what you mean by "risky" then saying that you rush an offensive item before a defensive one? i think you have some definitions backwards
You're playing a huge base damage perma slowing aoe damaging self hurting monster. I've never ever thought "Damn I don't do enough damage and never even get low hp, I need that recurve bow before warmogs"
I think warmogs is the best build and always have (thought I used to play him top lane), a hog first is nice, assuming you're getting randuins which is most games.
If warmogs is good on anyone it's good on mundo. He uses all the stats and more effectively than every other champ.
On April 24 2012 03:05 Nonexistent wrote: Have you guys tried the Dr. Pwndo build? boots of sorc for cleaver dmg, warmog, force of nature, atma impaler, warmog, warmog. gl gh never die
whenever I try rushing wormogs I do terrible. just my experience, then again I never go for cleaver or sorc boots. is this a jungle build or a laning build? because i feel like it would be terrible for jungling.
On April 24 2012 03:05 Nonexistent wrote: Have you guys tried the Dr. Pwndo build? boots of sorc for cleaver dmg, warmog, force of nature, atma impaler, warmog, warmog. gl gh never die
whenever I try rushing wormogs I do terrible. just my experience, then again I never go for cleaver or sorc boots. is this a jungle build or a laning build? because i feel like it would be terrible for jungling.
that's because you shouldnt rush it unless you're allready doing well
On April 25 2012 05:55 ishboh wrote: even sometimes when I get a gank or two really early it's risky. i don't even try it anymore.
i usually get one offensive item at least before wormogs (recurve bow).
Have you guys wawtched pro games recently.. the pro build is
Eh. I dunno. Wit's End seems like an inferior item on him. The thing is mundo is good at tanking damage & staying in the team fight, so Aegis works well on him.
I usually go hog/visage/ruby crystal into aegis or warmog.
If it's before 25 minute mark I get aegis. If it's after & I still don't have/can't afford Aegis, I get the Warmog & go into something else.
On April 25 2012 06:19 gtrsrs wrote: can you explain what you mean by "risky" then saying that you rush an offensive item before a defensive one? i think you have some definitions backwards
killing your enemies faster can be useful defensively as well. at the point in the game after boots 2 and I am deciding to go with either a recurve bow or a giants belt (comparable prices) most of the towers on the map are still standing, and jungling is still a large component of the experience/gold that I am getting. keep in mind also that when I encounter and enemy they are 80% of the time outnumbered due to the fact that I am ganking.
what a recurve bow does for me: faster jungle clear times faster kills, more sucessful ganks
what a giants belt does for me: helps me survive counter junglers and counter ganks
it's just a better investment because it spawns more gold for me than a giant's belt would. i mean, sure if there is a shaco running around like the jackass idiot clown that he is, I'll go giants belt, but otherwise I am going to go recurve bow most of the time.
admittedly, I have never experiemented with a HoG, i should proabably try that.
On April 24 2012 03:05 Nonexistent wrote: Have you guys tried the Dr. Pwndo build? boots of sorc for cleaver dmg, warmog, force of nature, atma impaler, warmog, warmog. gl gh never die
whenever I try rushing wormogs I do terrible. just my experience, then again I never go for cleaver or sorc boots. is this a jungle build or a laning build? because i feel like it would be terrible for jungling.
On April 24 2012 03:05 Nonexistent wrote: Have you guys tried the Dr. Pwndo build? boots of sorc for cleaver dmg, warmog, force of nature, atma impaler, warmog, warmog. gl gh never die
whenever I try rushing wormogs I do terrible. just my experience, then again I never go for cleaver or sorc boots. is this a jungle build or a laning build? because i feel like it would be terrible for jungling.
that's because you shouldnt rush it unless you're allready doing well
On April 24 2012 03:05 Nonexistent wrote: Have you guys tried the Dr. Pwndo build? boots of sorc for cleaver dmg, warmog, force of nature, atma impaler, warmog, warmog. gl gh never die
whenever I try rushing wormogs I do terrible. just my experience, then again I never go for cleaver or sorc boots. is this a jungle build or a laning build? because i feel like it would be terrible for jungling.
On April 24 2012 03:05 Nonexistent wrote: Have you guys tried the Dr. Pwndo build? boots of sorc for cleaver dmg, warmog, force of nature, atma impaler, warmog, warmog. gl gh never die
whenever I try rushing wormogs I do terrible. just my experience, then again I never go for cleaver or sorc boots. is this a jungle build or a laning build? because i feel like it would be terrible for jungling.
that's because you shouldnt rush it unless you're allready doing well
But for some reason the "experts" and "gurus" on LoL forums and some here always make fun of health stacking and downvote anyone who suggests it..
uh, ppl see a problem with mindless health stacking, not health stacking, there's a difference. If you're just getting hp just for the sake of hp, and taking no considerations like armor, mres or sustain, then yeah, you should rethink why exactly you're getting hp.
So the basic items I've seen built on Mundo are as follows:
Boots2 HoG Wits End Aegis Spirit Visige Warmogs Randuins ForceNature
In my games I always consider Randuin's and Warmogs a must because they are so good on Mundo that it's almost worth rushing Boots2>Randuins>Warmogs. But what are other peoples thoughts on whether to get Wits/Aegis/SV and what games/situations they would be worth delaying those other two big items?
Depends. If I find myself counterjungling/invading a lot, or I have to gank lanes with magic damage I may go for Spirit Visage after tabi+HoG, to avoid the bursts/increase my sustain. If I'm getting fed I just rush wit's (because recurve is boss and I always need early MR since I get tabi) to gank even harder. I rarely get Aegis, but maybe I should make it my default second item since it's so well-rounded.
On June 22 2012 03:55 arb wrote: When I watch oddone play him it seems like he goes
tabi hog sv(i think?) aegis warmogs or maybe aegis before sv.
thoughts on this build?
Let support get aegis, Mundo needs his tankyness.
lol aegis is not tanky? ok.
aegis is pretty annoying to build on a support. its almost always better buy on the jungler if he can carry it.
Yeah I'm more comparing it to warmog's. Warmog's makes mundo way tankier than aegis due to his kit.
If you have to get aegis, get it after warmog's + SV
Please explain what you mean by "due to his kit". The only reason health would be more valued on Mundo than resists is the health costs on Q, W and E. Maybe that's enough, but seeing as Warmog's is pretty rarely built on other champions anymore, I question it.
On June 22 2012 03:55 arb wrote: When I watch oddone play him it seems like he goes
tabi hog sv(i think?) aegis warmogs or maybe aegis before sv.
thoughts on this build?
Let support get aegis, Mundo needs his tankyness.
lol aegis is not tanky? ok.
aegis is pretty annoying to build on a support. its almost always better buy on the jungler if he can carry it.
Yeah I'm more comparing it to warmog's. Warmog's makes mundo way tankier than aegis due to his kit.
If you have to get aegis, get it after warmog's + SV
Please explain what you mean by "due to his kit". The only reason health would be more valued on Mundo than resists is the health costs on Q, W and E. Maybe that's enough, but seeing as Warmog's is pretty rarely built on other champions anymore, I question it.
lol?
both his passive and his ult directly scale with max health.
Warmogs has costly components, or others who could be as useful converted to another items (read belt super expensive, pendant useless, ruby could as well go to HoG or Aegis). Aegis > warmogs when you gank, unless you want to dive solo. Remember your other laners will benefit from the aura too. If you have to get aegis, get it early, when it has the most impact—and a farmy jungler like Mundo can get it way before your support.
On June 22 2012 04:40 Ghost-z wrote: Here's a question?
In what situation is rushing Warmogs first bad on Mundo? Or is it never bad but that other items may be situationally better?
If the entire enemy team is rushing Bloodrazors and/or Deathfire Grasps. Also if your team consists of four of Janna, Shen, Karma, Lux, Orianna or Lulu.
In all seriousness, the thing with Warmogs is that it brings no utility at all, only defense. Other defensive items like Frozen Heart, Randuin's Omen, Frozen Mallet, Aegis, Reverie, they all bring huge utility to a team. If you can build any of those and still be tanky enough, then they are better choices.
On June 22 2012 03:55 arb wrote: When I watch oddone play him it seems like he goes
tabi hog sv(i think?) aegis warmogs or maybe aegis before sv.
thoughts on this build?
Let support get aegis, Mundo needs his tankyness.
lol aegis is not tanky? ok.
aegis is pretty annoying to build on a support. its almost always better buy on the jungler if he can carry it.
Yeah I'm more comparing it to warmog's. Warmog's makes mundo way tankier than aegis due to his kit.
If you have to get aegis, get it after warmog's + SV
Please explain what you mean by "due to his kit". The only reason health would be more valued on Mundo than resists is the health costs on Q, W and E. Maybe that's enough, but seeing as Warmog's is pretty rarely built on other champions anymore, I question it.
lol?
both his passive and his ult directly scale with max health.
Are you aware of the associative property of real numbers? a*(b*c) = (a*b)*c
When discussing the relative value of Health vs Resists, only flat steroids (such as Rammus W, or Renekton ultimate) are relevant.
On June 22 2012 03:55 arb wrote: When I watch oddone play him it seems like he goes
tabi hog sv(i think?) aegis warmogs or maybe aegis before sv.
thoughts on this build?
Let support get aegis, Mundo needs his tankyness.
lol aegis is not tanky? ok.
aegis is pretty annoying to build on a support. its almost always better buy on the jungler if he can carry it.
Yeah I'm more comparing it to warmog's. Warmog's makes mundo way tankier than aegis due to his kit.
If you have to get aegis, get it after warmog's + SV
Please explain what you mean by "due to his kit". The only reason health would be more valued on Mundo than resists is the health costs on Q, W and E. Maybe that's enough, but seeing as Warmog's is pretty rarely built on other champions anymore, I question it.
lol?
both his passive and his ult directly scale with max health.
Are you aware of the associative property of real numbers? a*(b*c) = (a*b)*c
When discussing the relative value of Health vs Resists, only flat steroids (such as Rammus W, or Renekton ultimate) are relevant.
What. Mundo's ultimate and passive scale directly with max health, as the person you quoted said. A mundo with, say, three hundred health, is going to heal more quickly than a Mundo with 200. The more health he has, the more he can regenerate every time he presses R, thus making him very hard to kill.
I'm honestly not sure whether you know what the associative property is.
They scale with max health, but also with resists. The mundo with 200 health might regenerate 1/3 less health, but his higher resists can make up for that.
Anyway, flat costs on QWE make max health beneficial.
On June 22 2012 03:55 arb wrote: When I watch oddone play him it seems like he goes
tabi hog sv(i think?) aegis warmogs or maybe aegis before sv.
thoughts on this build?
Let support get aegis, Mundo needs his tankyness.
Someone clearly has not seen the extraordinary difference between teamfighting at 15-20 minutes with Aegis vs. teamfighting at 30 minutes with Aegis.
If you get Warmog's as your first major item, you can only really continue farming, because of how much gold it spends on a lopsided mix of non-teamfighting stats. You need to get Warmog's stacked before its pulling its weight in gold in fights. Contrast this with Aegis that's pulling MORE than its gold value immediately in teamfights.
Warmog's is good if you somehow have a team that doesn't need you to teamfight until 30 minutes, but most teams pick their junglers to be active teamfight participants in the 15-20 minute area, which is when Aegis is strong.
EDIT: I just mathcrafted Aegis+GBelt vs. Warmog's. Warmog's fresh is essentially equivalent to Aegis+GBelt for survivability. Stacking Mog's pulls it ahead, but this doesn't account for the absolutely monstrous teamfight presence 15 minute Aegis has. There's absolutely no comparison between 15-20 minute Aegis vs. having Ruby+Regrowth+Giant's Belt at the same point in time.
Again, if you can afk-farm Warmog's stacks, it'll be stronger by a significant amount at about 30 minutes, but Aegis makes you a teamfight powerhouse 10 minutes earlier than that.
What are your thoughts on taking spellpen vs armorpen in the offence tree on mundo? I'm so tempted because it seems like mundo does tons of magic damage in midgame, and tons of ad lategame.
i always take the 9 points for anger from the offensive mastery, I put the remainer points in the defensive masterys, making sure to put 3 points into quick thinking for more spells, also don't forget the 3 points into quick feets to stalk your opponent more easily. anger gives alot of extra sexual tension on your W and Q. the aoe does alot of damage and the cleavers become insane poke with more tension.
on items i shy away from warmogs now, it gives alot of hp but stacking it is very hard in the jungle. I prefer going for items with extra utility and good resistances. first of all you don't want to be naked, the journey will be long and cold in the jungle, for the same reason you also spend your remaining money in red drinks after looting dead monsters for a while your feet will starthurting from all the walking, good time to go back and graba pair of shoes. after that you make your way towards the jewish health item. being healthy doesn't stop there, you next build a kindle gem and upgrade your shoes, they will help you on your journey. the order of items after that are up to you but i always build towards the 4 same items those are, spirit visage, witch you tipically build first since the magic damage is the scariest thing around the map around that time. tipically the second one is randuins omen, discouraging enemy champions and making them lose motivation is very usefull during teamfights. lastly i will go for either, zeke's herald, rounds up your cdr very nicely, gives health and increase your damage since you will be raising your E now and attack speed scales fenomenaly with it. Also it will make your own allys more cheerfull, witch is a good thing in soloqueue. the fourth item i tipically build is locket of solari. it is cheap and you being the jungler is going to be highter level than your support making the active that much stronger. if you want to build this one, you profit more for going jewish just after randuins, but it's not really necessary. with said items you are very tanky, bring alot of utility to the team, and being mundo you also do alot of damage. besides you get some street credit cause your items pop out in the chat when you complete them.
On June 22 2012 03:55 arb wrote: When I watch oddone play him it seems like he goes
tabi hog sv(i think?) aegis warmogs or maybe aegis before sv.
thoughts on this build?
Let support get aegis, Mundo needs his tankyness.
lol aegis is not tanky? ok.
aegis is pretty annoying to build on a support. its almost always better buy on the jungler if he can carry it.
Yeah I'm more comparing it to warmog's. Warmog's makes mundo way tankier than aegis due to his kit.
If you have to get aegis, get it after warmog's + SV
Please explain what you mean by "due to his kit". The only reason health would be more valued on Mundo than resists is the health costs on Q, W and E. Maybe that's enough, but seeing as Warmog's is pretty rarely built on other champions anymore, I question it.
lol?
both his passive and his ult directly scale with max health.
Resists scale directly with max health too, bro.
Feel free to do some math. % Max health things will treat resists and health the same as if you had no defensive abilities at all.
warmogs was great pre-nerf (to Warmog and Atmas) and also during that period of time when afk-farm junglers were numero uno. unfortunately, warmogs and atmas nerf means that it's not nearly as powerful as it used to be. Mallet provides comparable stats with much more utility. This is also not to mention that afk farm junglers aren't that strong anymore, hence the growth in popularity of Naut and other such junglers.
Core items on Mundo now are basically HoG, Aegis. Visage and Wit's are also great buys; Visage is more common than Wit's in my experience since it synergizes so well with Mundo's kit; on the other hand Wit's provides great dps and stats all around. Follow up items can be stuff like Zeke's, Mallet, FoN, Randuin's or basically anything really. Once you get HoG, Aegis, SV and some levels you're pretty damn unkillable already and do good damage.
I prefer armor pen since it makes jungling faster than mpen and while mpen definitely helps you do damage, you end up doing more physical damage throughout the game.
On June 22 2012 03:55 arb wrote: When I watch oddone play him it seems like he goes
tabi hog sv(i think?) aegis warmogs or maybe aegis before sv.
thoughts on this build?
Let support get aegis, Mundo needs his tankyness.
lol aegis is not tanky? ok.
aegis is pretty annoying to build on a support. its almost always better buy on the jungler if he can carry it.
Yeah I'm more comparing it to warmog's. Warmog's makes mundo way tankier than aegis due to his kit.
If you have to get aegis, get it after warmog's + SV
Please explain what you mean by "due to his kit". The only reason health would be more valued on Mundo than resists is the health costs on Q, W and E. Maybe that's enough, but seeing as Warmog's is pretty rarely built on other champions anymore, I question it.
lol?
both his passive and his ult directly scale with max health.
Are you aware of the associative property of real numbers? a*(b*c) = (a*b)*c
When discussing the relative value of Health vs Resists, only flat steroids (such as Rammus W, or Renekton ultimate) are relevant.
What. Mundo's ultimate and passive scale directly with max health, as the person you quoted said. A mundo with, say, three hundred health, is going to heal more quickly than a Mundo with 200. The more health he has, the more he can regenerate every time he presses R, thus making him very hard to kill.
I'm honestly not sure whether you know what the associative property is.
1000 hp with 100 armor = 2000 effective hp (EHP) 2000 hp with 0 armor = 2000 EHP
Now if you heal 1% per second you would heal 20 EHP per second in either case.
The reason HP is good on Mundo compared to many bruisers is this: Buying health is generally more cost-effective for EHP than buying resists. However, when you have sustain in the form of flat healing (most bruisers with lifesteal or similar) or heal spells (summoner heal, supports) resists are often more valuable, as they improve the efficiency of flat healing. Take summoner heal in the above example:
Say summoner heal heals you for 300 hp. 300 hp with 100 armor = 600 EHP 300 hp with 0 armor = 300E HP
For tankiness on any champ you should always balance HP and resists, but as most bruisers lean towards resists because of flat healing, mundo leans towards HP. Not because HP is better for him, but because HP is cheaper for increasing his EHP. Flat HP costs also make HP more favorable.
Some humility would suit you well here. Alzadar was completely correct in his statement. In the future, please make an effort to try and understand what is conveyed before arguing against it.
On December 07 2012 23:46 Alaric wrote: How come? Shouldn't he be slower since he relies on AoE and the big creeps have more HP? That also means he'd take more damage.
His Q and E are great for dealing single target damage.
On December 07 2012 23:46 Alaric wrote: How come? Shouldn't he be slower since he relies on AoE and the big creeps have more HP? That also means he'd take more damage.
I honestly think that the jungle change hasn't changed the fact that aoe jungler still have the best clear times just by the fact that they are aoe junglers. They just don't surpass single target junglers by miles and miles anymore. But when it comes to farming the jungle they still have an advantage.
I feel like I get a lot lower than I used to (particularly between levels 4-6), making early aggression a lot more risky. Machete seems pretty awful on Mundo, Interested on hearing how the long sword/2 pots thing works, along with any other thoughts on the season 3 jungle.
On January 01 2013 15:06 zer0das wrote: I feel like I get a lot lower than I used to (particularly between levels 4-6), making early aggression a lot more risky. Machete seems pretty awful on Mundo, Interested on hearing how the long sword/2 pots thing works, along with any other thoughts on the season 3 jungle.
Yeah you will get lower than in season 2, but it doesn't change the fact Mundo is still one of the best junglers around.
I've tested both Cloth + 5 and Machete + 5 and found that you roughly end up with the same amount of health after one jungle clear, the difference is that Machete clears pretty much faster than Cloth so there's no substitute there. I haven't tried out Long sword + 2 pots but I presume you're gonna get a much much tougher time because you only have 2 potions, I don't think its worth it at all, especially since long sword doesn't build into anything useful on Mundo.
Edit: The potions are extremely important on Mundo early on (first clear) as he essentially has negative regen.
On January 01 2013 15:06 zer0das wrote: I feel like I get a lot lower than I used to (particularly between levels 4-6), making early aggression a lot more risky. Machete seems pretty awful on Mundo, Interested on hearing how the long sword/2 pots thing works, along with any other thoughts on the season 3 jungle.
Yeah you will get lower than in season 2, but it doesn't change the fact Mundo is still one of the best junglers around.
I've tested both Cloth + 5 and Machete + 5 and found that you roughly end up with the same amount of health after one jungle clear, the difference is that Machete clears pretty much faster than Cloth so there's no substitute there. I haven't tried out Long sword + 2 pots but I presume you're gonna get a much much tougher time because you only have 2 potions, I don't think its worth it at all, especially since long sword doesn't build into anything useful on Mundo.
Edit: The potions are extremely important on Mundo early on (first clear) as he essentially has negative regen.
I think I saw Oddone go Machete -> regular Mundo items just because the 10% extra damage is so big.
On January 02 2013 03:26 Bladeorade wrote: League of Consumables applies to Mundo very well.
10 Potion start GG
Are people really doing this? If so I forsee another potions nerf from Riot, which is fine by me. With all the crap to help out bad laning I'd like to be able to still punish poor lane opponents.
Mundo hits hard and fast with max E sotd but I don't think you'll be able to get close to a squishy with it in a real game.
You know, I've been thinking, after the jungle buff (more focus on single target), it might actually be more beneficial for Mundo to max E first before W. Perhaps keeping W at level 2 and maxing E first would be better since he can quite easily bully the other jungler out of his jungle on the 2nd buff with his insane damage on E (7-9 minutes in game).
On February 01 2013 20:08 divinesage wrote: You know, I've been thinking, after the jungle buff (more focus on single target), it might actually be more beneficial for Mundo to max E first before W. Perhaps keeping W at level 2 and maxing E first would be better since he can quite easily bully the other jungler out of his jungle on the 2nd buff with his insane damage on E (7-9 minutes in game).
What do you guys think?
I did that already in S2. It's pretty good, and i doubt it influences your clear speed too badly.
On February 01 2013 20:08 divinesage wrote: You know, I've been thinking, after the jungle buff (more focus on single target), it might actually be more beneficial for Mundo to max E first before W. Perhaps keeping W at level 2 and maxing E first would be better since he can quite easily bully the other jungler out of his jungle on the 2nd buff with his insane damage on E (7-9 minutes in game).
What do you guys think?
People max Q after a few points in W, anyway. I think I saw Diamond take 2 points in W then max Q. E is worse for ganks and I'm pretty sure you don't lose clear time maxing Q over E.
Maxing Q over E depends on the matchup really, while yes if you see yourself being unable to gank as the other team has plenty of CC, is clumping up, then Q works better. On the other hand, if the game is such that the mid game phase is not forced so soon (and you're fed), then E becomes a terrifying tool when used to gank simply because it bursts down a champion so quickly.
What I'm more concerned about is the phase just before mid game, i.e. around the 6 to 10 minute mark where lanes are still generally present and Mundo's bursty game presence is at its peak.
On February 01 2013 21:55 divinesage wrote: Maxing Q over E depends on the matchup really, while yes if you see yourself being unable to gank as the other team has plenty of CC, is clumping up, then Q works better. On the other hand, if the game is such that the mid game phase is not forced so soon (and you're fed), then E becomes a terrifying tool when used to gank simply because it bursts down a champion so quickly.
What I'm more concerned about is the phase just before mid game, i.e. around the 6 to 10 minute mark where lanes are still generally present and Mundo's bursty game presence is at its peak.
in my experience Q>>>E for burst. 15~25% of their current health in hp is generally more damage than 40~100 damage per auto, especially when Q has a 4 second cooldown and Mundo's attack speed is kinda low. Honestly, I think Q max is stronger than E max for ganking (and basically every other scenario).
On March 14 2013 02:22 1godless wrote: What are you doing in the jungle skill order and item wise? I feel like mundo is so much weaker nowadays
Mundo definitely feels weaker to me. He's not a very strong duelist until he gets his ulti/some health and he can just get killed 1v1 against champs like Xin, J4, Vi. On top of that, his ganking isn't exactly the strongest, especially w/out red buff when compared to aforementioned champs. Mundo also wants a decent amount of farm; the Locket+Aegis core that the most popular junglers go for simply doesn't cut it for Mundo. That said, if he gets fed/farmed he's an absolute beast that does tons of damage and is basically unkillable.
I usually go WQE then R>Q>W/E. Machete+5pot. Then build into razor or spirit stone are both good options. Spirit stone's nice in that the upgrade to Golem spirit gives you everything you want (cept mana regen). I usually grab kindlegem+belt asap. Then build into Locket+Warmogs. From there you can go for Randuins or Visage for more survivability. Wit's End for a hybrid between damage and survivability. Zephyr/PD for tons of damage, but only if you're super goddam fed.
EDIT: Okay so I tried E over Q max and it's pretty darn good. It's more reliable damage and the speed is faster for jungling since E costs less health.
Hunter+pots-->boots-->spirit st.-->kindle-->ninja tabi-->warmog-->spirit visage Now it gets a bit situational but this is my "standard": ancient golem, sunfire, randuins
Runes: Armor seals, marks of mag. pen., scaling mag. res.glyphs, quints of movement speed.
Mundo needs to build tanky period, he still does good damage even lategame because his cleavers are OP as hell, even his attack steroid packs a punch later on. Once you get warmog up you can really get in peoples faces and run away if needed (kite them cleavers). When spirit visage (now you have beast sustain, oh wait you have a low cd sustain ulti too, wtf OPLOL) is built you shouldnt die ever, if you do it better be for a realllly good reason. Spam cleavers every time you see anyone, spamspam. When your team seems ready to go, pop ulti initiate and put your troll face on.
Mag. pen. runes are a must imo, movement speed helps a lot before you enter PWNDO mode.
(R duhh obv.)>W>Q>E
he can just get killed 1v1 against champs like Xin, J4, Vi
no
Wit's End for a hybrid between damage and survivability. Zephyr/PD for tons of damage
Tank items do so much more for lategame Mundo imo. His place in the current meta is to be a crazy sustain initiator with awesome harass.
Also, it doesn't seem like there's anything stopping you from getting "Team-friendly" tanky jungle items like Locket or Aegis (which both also convienently add to your health regen) instead of "selfish" ones like Warmogs. Mundo's percent selfheals from passive and ulti are just as good with resists as they are with flat health bonuses, and with the Warmog nerf there isn't a compelling reason to me to get it. (Kindlegems op on mundo, locket visage ftw?)
On April 10 2013 03:01 sylverfyre wrote: Why magic pen instead of hybrid pen?
Also, it doesn't seem like there's anything stopping you from getting "Team-friendly" tanky jungle items like Locket or Aegis (which both also convienently add to your health regen) instead of "selfish" ones like Warmogs. Mundo's percent selfheals from passive and ulti are just as good with resists as they are with flat health bonuses, and with the Warmog nerf there isn't a compelling reason to me to get it. (Kindlegems op on mundo, locket visage ftw?)
Mundos ult heals based on max health, so i figure getting the most health items would be good?
Also top Mundo is hilariously OP, you guys should give it a try.
On April 10 2013 03:01 sylverfyre wrote: Why magic pen instead of hybrid pen?
Also, it doesn't seem like there's anything stopping you from getting "Team-friendly" tanky jungle items like Locket or Aegis (which both also convienently add to your health regen) instead of "selfish" ones like Warmogs. Mundo's percent selfheals from passive and ulti are just as good with resists as they are with flat health bonuses, and with the Warmog nerf there isn't a compelling reason to me to get it. (Kindlegems op on mundo, locket visage ftw?)
Mundos ult heals based on max health, so i figure getting the most health items would be good?
Also top Mundo is hilariously OP, you guys should give it a try.
Common misconception about mundo ult (sylverfyre had it right): it scales just as well off resists as hp.
Seconded - top Mundo is awesome. Even in lanes that hard counter you, you can still farm and poke decently with cleavers, Kennen-style, and gank-assisting is super easy.
Also, the reason to get selfish items on Mundo is because Mundo scales so well off of just being fat. It's almost AD carry level multiplicativity.
You're being overly simplistic if you say "it scales just as well".
Compared to any champ with flat heals, a %hp heal/regen makes HP more cost-effective. Typical item cost-effectiveness estimates are done for champions with flat heal/regen values, or values that scale with statistics other than HP. His %hp regen makes HP a more cost-effective choice than it would be if it were a flat hp5 stat.
So yeah, it's not just a "common misconception", you're being too simplistic. You can't say "it scales just as well" if you completely ignore the constant factors; that's just meaningless in practice.
You're completely right, but backwards in a sense - resists are more cost-efficient for champions with shields or flat heals. Again, you're entirely correct that compared to most tanks Mundo should buy more HP. The reason I bring this up, though, is that if you're looking at the stats of the items, Mundo doesn't value health over resists; only if you're comparing what Mundo would buy to what a champion with a shield or flat heal would buy.
TL;DR: mundo buy more health than most champs because those champs prioritize resists, not because mundo prioritize health
(Actually, Mundo does slightly prefer health to resists because of the flat hp costs on his skills, but that's not what I want to emphasize with this post.)
On April 11 2013 02:35 bmn wrote: You're being overly simplistic if you say "it scales just as well".
Compared to any champ with flat heals, a %hp heal/regen makes HP more cost-effective. Typical item cost-effectiveness estimates are done for champions with flat heal/regen values, or values that scale with statistics other than HP. His %hp regen makes HP a more cost-effective choice than it would be if it were a flat hp5 stat.
So yeah, it's not just a "common misconception", you're being too simplistic. You can't say "it scales just as well" if you completely ignore the constant factors; that's just meaningless in practice.
Compared to a champion with NO HEALS OR SHIELDS AT ALL, HP is just as cost effective as resists.
On April 11 2013 02:35 bmn wrote: You're being overly simplistic if you say "it scales just as well".
Compared to any champ with flat heals, a %hp heal/regen makes HP more cost-effective. Typical item cost-effectiveness estimates are done for champions with flat heal/regen values, or values that scale with statistics other than HP. His %hp regen makes HP a more cost-effective choice than it would be if it were a flat hp5 stat.
So yeah, it's not just a "common misconception", you're being too simplistic. You can't say "it scales just as well" if you completely ignore the constant factors; that's just meaningless in practice.
He's not overly simplistic when he says his ult scales just as well with hp as it does with resists. It's just plain right, and not arguable. Cost efficiency and what works best with his whole kit is another matter.
On April 11 2013 02:35 bmn wrote: You're being overly simplistic if you say "it scales just as well".
Compared to any champ with flat heals, a %hp heal/regen makes HP more cost-effective. Typical item cost-effectiveness estimates are done for champions with flat heal/regen values, or values that scale with statistics other than HP. His %hp regen makes HP a more cost-effective choice than it would be if it were a flat hp5 stat.
So yeah, it's not just a "common misconception", you're being too simplistic. You can't say "it scales just as well" if you completely ignore the constant factors; that's just meaningless in practice.
He's not overly simplistic when he says his ult scales just as well with hp as it does with resists. It's just plain right, and not arguable. Cost efficiency and what works best with his whole kit is another matter.
The only thing in his kit that makes you inclined to build health over resists at all, is the fact that he spends health on abilities. His passive %MHP regen, and his Ulti %MHP regen, and the desire to be a raid boss in general, have no bearing on prioritizing health or resists more. I'd still go Locket/Aegis as jungle Mundo rather than Warmogs. You get a good balance of resists and health, and even some regen to offset your ability costs. Selfish itemization on any "tank" (bruiser, tanky, whatever) just doesn't make a lot of sense to me (I go locket on most top laners as well.) Except maybe sunfire. Existence mundo, who kills you because he exists, is pretty legit.
Just buy the damn warmogs if you want to maximize your EHP. Disregarding everything else, the fact that you're going to be ignited anytime you actually get locked down means that flat HP lets you live longer than resists, not to mention the fact that most resist items suck compared to warmogs for EHP especially over a 10-20 second fight and his spells costs flat HP. Seems like a no-brainer on mundo unless you want utility, but with mundo his utility comes from the fact that he will eat your face unless you kill him fast.
Disclaimer: I'd really like someone to check my work, the following may be incorrect!
While it may be a bit counter intuitive, it's actually better to buy resists on Mundo than HP.
Even though it's a percentage heal, you still benefit a lot more from resists than max HP. I developed two Excel files to try to solve the problem (well, one I already made, I included download links at the bottom). *note that the price of armor and mr on the left is actually 18.
Some assumptions: -damage taken is constant over time (DMG = DOT*t) -base MR and AR were excluded -no penetrations taken into account -no healing debuffs taken into account -full health when damage is taken -damage from abilities not taken into account -taken over 12s (the time of Mundo's ult) -only Armor, MR and health are used, doesn't take into account passives or completed items or anything else
So first off, if a hypothetical 2000 physical and 2000 magic damage are applied, the minimum total cost of items to not die with no regen is 3809. With Dr. Mundo's ult this value is reduced to 1071. It might be interesting to say that under the given conditions, Mundo's ult is worth almost 2000 gold.
Second, the most cost efficient way to not die is to actually purchase no health at all with Mundo! (I'm not 100% sure on this point, to prove this different combinations/scenarios can be tested if you download the file, I don't want to post a whole bunch of pictures though. From what I've tried it's true though, I don't have as much time as I'd like to test it further though:/ ).
Some quick thoughts: -Mundo's abilities cost flat health, will skew in favour of buying health -penetrations and base MR/AR values could change (although would likely skew analysis in favour of MR/AR) -burst damage isn't taken into account, would skew in favour of buying health (need to not die right away!) -healing debuffs not taken into account (ignite, grievous wounds, ect.), skew in favour of buying AR/MR (ignite is more difficult to say, have to weigh true damage vs damage done in healing reduction) -done for just level 16, at lower levels things could change (esp need health to use abilities) -doesn't take into account the utility of certain items (esp Spirit Visage), but would generally skew into the favour of MR/AR (since they generally provide more utility than health items) -more...?
Obviously this is very idealized, but I think it's interesting to note that health is highly overrated on Mundo (ie, he got stealth nerf from season 3 patch, when cheaper HP was thought to be a buff on Mundo).
Anyhow, that's my analysis on the the subject. Again, I'm not sure if it's actually right so it'd be great if someone could check it over.
EDIT: I think it's safe to say that Warmogs IS NOT core on Mundo, and possibly even a bad item to get. It's interesting to note that you'd probably be much better off going locket+aegis, then getting randuins+other stuff.
EDIT2:
Ok, so after a bit more analysis I've come to a few more conclusions.
1) As total damage increases relative to base health, building health becomes more valuable 2) If physical damage is relatively equal to magic damage, and both are high relative to base health, building health becomes more valuable
So with that in mind, building health is a lot more valuable than I thought after my first analysis (as our intuition tells us). However, with my previous analysis in mind as well, I think warmogs should, and can, be left as a 5th or 6th item (especially since it offers no utility).
I think the best build would be: locket->sv/aegis/randuins->warmogs/other stuff
There is also a not insignificant amount of %hp damage out there that is resistable: kogmaw spit, mummy tears, liandry's burn, slime whack, and so on. Building hp doesn't protect you against this but resists does.
How do you guys make Mundo useful as quickly as possible? His ganks suck, his jungle health before lv6 sucks, and seems more gold dependent than all the other junglers.
On April 11 2013 08:50 imBLIND wrote: How do you guys make Mundo useful as quickly as possible? His ganks suck, his jungle health before lv6 sucks, and seems more gold dependent than all the other junglers.
you farm you come out of jungle only when you are certain you can get a successful gank off, or when your laner really needs pressure relieved. That's about it.
Disclaimer: I'd really like someone to check my work, the following may be incorrect!
While it may be a bit counter intuitive, it's actually better to buy resists on Mundo than HP.
Even though it's a percentage heal, you still benefit a lot more from resists than max HP. I developed two Excel files to try to solve the problem (well, one I already made, I included download links at the bottom). *note that the price of armor and mr on the left is actually 18.
Some assumptions: -damage taken is constant over time (DMG = DOT*t) -base MR and AR were excluded -no penetrations taken into account -no healing debuffs taken into account -full health when damage is taken -damage from abilities not taken into account -taken over 12s (the time of Mundo's ult) -only Armor, MR and health are used, doesn't take into account passives or completed items or anything else
So first off, if a hypothetical 2000 physical and 2000 magic damage are applied, the minimum total cost of items to not die with no regen is 3809. With Dr. Mundo's ult this value is reduced to 1071. It might be interesting to say that under the given conditions, Mundo's ult is worth almost 2000 gold.
Second, the most cost efficient way to not die is to actually purchase no health at all with Mundo! (I'm not 100% sure on this point, to prove this different combinations/scenarios can be tested if you download the file, I don't want to post a whole bunch of pictures though. From what I've tried it's true though, I don't have as much time as I'd like to test it further though:/ ).
Some quick thoughts: -Mundo's abilities cost flat health, will skew in favour of buying health -penetrations and base MR/AR values could change (although would likely skew analysis in favour of MR/AR) -burst damage isn't taken into account, would skew in favour of buying health (need to not die right away!) -healing debuffs not taken into account (ignite, grievous wounds, ect.), skew in favour of buying AR/MR (ignite is more difficult to say, have to weigh true damage vs damage done in healing reduction) -done for just level 16, at lower levels things could change (esp need health to use abilities) -doesn't take into account the utility of certain items (esp Spirit Visage), but would generally skew into the favour of MR/AR (since they generally provide more utility than health items) -more...?
Obviously this is very idealized, but I think it's interesting to note that health is highly overrated on Mundo (ie, he got stealth nerf from season 3 patch, when cheaper HP was thought to be a buff on Mundo).
Anyhow, that's my analysis on the the subject. Again, I'm not sure if it's actually right so it'd be great if someone could check it over.
EDIT: I think it's safe to say that Warmogs IS NOT core on Mundo, and possibly even a bad item to get. It's interesting to note that you'd probably be much better off going locket+aegis, then getting randuins+other stuff.
EDIT2:
Ok, so after a bit more analysis I've come to a few more conclusions.
1) As total damage increases relative to base health, building health becomes more valuable 2) If physical damage is relatively equal to magic damage, and both are high relative to base health, building health becomes more valuable
So with that in mind, building health is a lot more valuable than I thought after my first analysis (as our intuition tells us). However, with my previous analysis in mind as well, I think warmogs should, and can, be left as a 5th or 6th item (especially since it offers no utility).
I think the best build would be: locket->sv/aegis/randuins->warmogs/other stuff
The base values actually make a huge difference. In fact, Mundo's base health, armor and mr let him survive 4000 damage over 12 seconds, with no items. When I bumped that up to 10000 (still split evenly), Mundo was nearly able to survive with just runes and warmogs.
Er, yeah, my previous comment was wrong. Mundo's %hp regen has no particular significance when it comes to cost-effectiveness of HP versus resists, sorry for that. Both regen % of effective HP, not sure what made me think otherwise.
So been playing Mundo top recently, here are my thoughts:
Why Mundo Top: -pretty stronk, scales really well, if you get some kills+farm you can reach unkillable level mid game -carries really well (at low levels at least :p) if you get fed -q,e, and w all help with lane control. q can farm from distance (somewhat), w gives aoe pushing power, e makes last hitting easy, especially under tower (1 tower shot+auto for ranged creeps) -q+e auto trades quite well (unless you miss cleaver :/) -assits ganks fairly well (if you can hit cleaver) -smashes like a bau-five -can use corporate mundo skin :p
Weaknesses -no gap closer/ jump -no hard cc
I've been running arpen marks, flat armour seals, flat mr glyphs, and ad quints (cause that's all I have :/). I think arpen or attack speed quints would be better since you have a ridiculous ad buff.
9/21/0 masteries, ghost/ignite
Q->E->W, then max Q->W->E
Build: I've been starting cloth/5 or 9pot/2ward. I guess with the upcoming max 5pot changes regen/4pot/2ward might be the alternative (I've been able to get away with cloth/5 at low levels, but with no escape you probably need wards at a higher level).
Ok, so basically you don't want to pick up aegis cause it's not spectacular on Mundo like spirit visage is (sv + bulwark is probably going to be inefficient unless they are doing primarily magic damage), but get it if no one else is. Locket is fine on Mundo since you're getting a kindlegem anyhow, however if your support or jungler seem to be headed towards a locket I think it's better to skip it.
Get Randuins asap, it makes you extremely tanky, gives good teamfight utility, and god forbid you miss a cleaver 1v1 the active helps with chases. Randuins+spirit visage makes you a complete beast mid game.
Zephyr gives you everything you'd want in a non-defense item (minus arpen I suppose), get if you don't need additional defense and you need additional damage. Get Warmogs as your 5/6th item.
Tabis>Mercs imo, since I like to pick up a zephyr. Zerkers are also a legit option if you want to do more damage/ get fed early.
MY only thought is about armpen, i don't think its the ideal stat on him, i'd rather go for the mixed arm/magic pen reds or even magic pen runes, your main skills are magic damage so the extra touch with the mpen should really make a difference in lane. For quints i actually think movespeed are quite good both in jungle and in lane, combining the stats with a cleaver, you should trade and close gaps really decently..
On April 23 2013 04:33 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote: MY only thought is about armpen, i don't think its the ideal stat on him, i'd rather go for the mixed arm/magic pen reds or even magic pen runes, your main skills are magic damage so the extra touch with the mpen should really make a difference in lane. For quints i actually think movespeed are quite good both in jungle and in lane, combining the stats with a cleaver, you should trade and close gaps really decently..
Ooh right I forgot to talk about hybid pen, yeah they would probably be best, but they're super expensive :p
mpen possibly better as well, probably a lot better in lane, arpen is nice when you're hitting with 300+ad autos. I've found that you don't really need movement speed quints since I'm usually not traveling over long distances to engage like you would for a gank. Usually kills are off of a fairly short range cleaver, where you can run them down almost immediately (especially if you have ult up), so I don't think that ms quints would make a big difference. Mundo's weakness of having no gap closer (or escape) isn't so much that it's hard to engage (ghost, ult, randuins when you have it, work well), more so that it's difficult to get out of certain situations. Mundo is not nearly as safe as say Zed or Khaz, especially pre-6.
The case for armor pen is that your E is one of the strongest steroids at early levels, and armor pen hugely multiplies that damage. In addition, champions have lower armor than magic resist early on, making armor pen comparatively stronger. However, particularly as the game progresses, more of Mundo's damage is shifted towards magic, and in several lanes you simply can't get close enough to fasesmash people.
On April 11 2013 08:50 imBLIND wrote: How do you guys make Mundo useful as quickly as possible? His ganks suck, his jungle health before lv6 sucks, and seems more gold dependent than all the other junglers.
I went to gold Elo in season 2 only with Mundo and Skarner.
If you said in that way, well every champions suck, rite? Mundo can gank well because his enemy doesnt know when he comes. He can kill first Red and gank top ASAP, or clear Blue+Red then make a more powerful gank because his Q can slow permanently with enough CDR. Mundo can choose Exhaust instead of Flash, it will make his gank more deadly, and counter some kind of burst damage. If I cannot gank, I may steal some jungle mobs, because his clearing speed is awesome.
I'm only in Silver, but I'm considering just maining Mundo jungle now. People are pretty bad at wards, so ganking is still possible and half of the time I farm almost as well as the solos with his clear speed.
For skills, do people go W->E->Q or W->Q->E? (or I guess Q-E-w is possible depending on path)? I usually get W to 3 by level 5, then Q>E>W? Anyone have any thoughts?
On April 24 2013 00:09 ShoreT wrote: I'm only in Silver, but I'm considering just maining Mundo jungle now. People are pretty bad at wards, so ganking is still possible and half of the time I farm almost as well as the solos with his clear speed.
For skills, do people go W->E->Q or W->Q->E? (or I guess Q-E-w is possible depending on path)? I usually get W to 3 by level 5, then Q>E>W? Anyone have any thoughts?
If you dont have to learn Q at level 1 for invading, then W-Q-E-W-W-R, then Q>W>E.
Now people want to get level 3 ASAP for an early gank, so learning Q at level 2 is better (you hit Blue Golem with your Q, to check if he is alive, and drag him near you), then active W and Q Q Q. Stealing Red buff as Mundo is easy, especially at low Elo. If the enemy jungler are a slow one such as Amumu, I will start at Wraith - my red - his red - gank, then give blue buff to my teammate.
Amumu will still get to his red in time though, especially if he gets a smiteless leash (which is pretty standard... at higher than Silver IV at least) and he's pretty dangerous to you early on, especially if he has skilled WE, considering how low clearing makes you.
I go WQEW then I adapt (I take W again at level 3 if I know I won't be ganking before level 4, which is pretty rare), I tend to put as much points into E as I can until I feel I'll have to use Q poke soon, at which point I start maxing Q instead (if there's a lot of action, ganks, counterganks, etc. I'll tend to max Q immediatly so my poke is more powerful when both junglers are standing in the same lane, and I can do more damage while checking bushes with Q, plus it gives a better slow for kiting/escaping). I take a 3rd point in W if I farm a lot and will make use of the additional damage for quite some time, otherwise level 2 W's often enough.
Btw, I believe that rank 1 E + rank 1 W does more dps than rank 2 W.
Running some quick math, the raw dps increase from E for a level 3 mundo is ~33, or ~28.7 vs big wraith (highest armour of non-buff monsters). Rank 2 W gives +15dps, it's aoe but rank 1 W should be able to burn down the small creeps anyhow. Also, if you run arpen or atspd runes the dps increase from E will be higher. Both cost the same amount of health.
On April 24 2013 03:05 Alaric wrote: Amumu will still get to his red in time though, especially if he gets a smiteless leash (which is pretty standard... at higher than Silver IV at least) and he's pretty dangerous to you early on, especially if he has skilled WE, considering how low clearing makes you.
Of course, but he will not likely has a hard leash if he starts at the blue buff of blue team. Picking Mundo on Purple side is already an advantage because you can choose between an early level 2 gank top/mid, or counter jungling.
Actually Mundo doesn't have sustain at all on his first clear and will most likely need those potions, especially if he plans on ganking. After your first clear you kill stuff faster, thus taking less damage, but your first clear is still pretty vulnerable and potion-hungry.
On June 04 2013 08:21 cLutZ wrote: Does anyone do Cloth 5 instead of Machete 5 starts.
And/or does anyone build any SS items on mundo?
I tried Cloth 5, the sustain is only a little bit more, but you take 30s longer to clear the jungle. So no. But I prefer Madred, buy it at your 1st recall definitely help you in term of sustain.
I dont like spirit golem on Mundo (because mana regen is wasted, and Mundo does not scale hard with CDR like other jungler anyway because of his W and R).
Elder Lizard could be hilariously strong (and fast) though if his W procs it constantly. However, there's no tankiness at all in that, which is kinda bad.
I've been curious about this as well. Have tried running 9/21/0 with mixed pen/armor/mr/HP regen quints and general health stacking items, but haven't had a lot of success (although that could be because I haven't played the good doctor in a long time).
VashTS, that link just goes to the page for all Dr. Mundo guides. Which one are you looking at in particular?
On July 26 2013 15:59 lostbot wrote: I've been curious about this as well. Have tried running 9/21/0 with mixed pen/armor/mr/HP regen quints and general health stacking items, but haven't had a lot of success (although that could be because I haven't played the good doctor in a long time).
VashTS, that link just goes to the page for all Dr. Mundo guides. Which one are you looking at in particular?
Key to Mundo top is being able to hit cleavers, bread and butter is pushing to their tower and nailing cleavers under tower while they try to last hit, then ult+ignite+e and go cleave 'em (be careful about diving because it's easy to miss cleavers which really cuts down your damage). Another positive about Mundo top is that he has such excellent lane control, so even if you're a scrub like my self it's so easy to last hit/freeze/push, plus you can farm from range with cleaver.
Also, there's some stuff earlier in the thread that shows that health items are overrated on Mundo, esp Warmogs. I really like the build in that guide because of the cheap cdr items.
My build path would generally be: cloth/5 or rejuv+ward+pot -> work towards tabis/mercs or kindlegem -> 1 to 2 kindlegems, wardens mail -> spirit visage, randuins -> other stuff. I consider Mundo's core to be SV+Randuins, you'll be a beast once you have those two items.
On July 26 2013 23:04 Capped wrote: Hydra on mundo, a good buy? the innate regen seems to help, along with clear.
Something like Hydra, SV, Warmogs core?
Mundo doesn't really need help clearing, if you wanted to improve your clearing just level burning agony. imo puts a lot of money into something that's not defense.
There are two types of bad lanes for mundo: lanes where mundo has to stand back and farm with cleavers or under tower, and lanes where mundo can't even farm. The first is fairly common - Darius, Shyvana, Udyr, and Trundle can beat on Mundo pretty hard (or at least used to be able to - I haven't played mundo top in a while, but those were the four that I remember having trouble with). The second is mostly occupied by the standard abusive ranged champs, like Kennen and Teemo. Make sure they aren't picking someone stupid like that, or pray for ganks. It's not just ranged champs - Elise is in this category too.
On July 26 2013 23:04 Capped wrote: Hydra on mundo, a good buy? the innate regen seems to help, along with clear.
Something like Hydra, SV, Warmogs core?
Personally I think if you're gonna get a damage item Zephyr might be better. Attack speed/crit is pretty good on him since his E is a massive steroid. The movespeed, cdr, and tenacity are all very good for Mundo, too. It's also reasonably cheap for you to afford.
I'm talking from the perspective of jungle Mundo, though. I've never laned Mundo outside of low-level normals with my smurf.
Zephyr is THE dps item on mundo, no question. Nothing else compares. He loves everything about it - he needs attackspeed and crit as his main damage stats, he needs movespeed to keep up, and he absolutely requires tenacity so he doesn't get stunlocked or kited.
I just played a game as top lane mundo against shyvana. It wasn't a good measure of how good the lane is, since Shyv towerdove me at level 2 when I had barrier up and then I got double buff from their jungler shortly after thanks to a Karma gank. The lane was pretty out of control from there. However, I can say that at level 1 the advantage is definitely Shyvana's, and Mundo has to take what farm he can get. I could easily take on Shyvana after 2, but I think even without double buff I could have handled her. Hard to say.
I'm starting to think Mundo is stronger and stronger. The slow on cleaver really lets you dictate trades on your terms, and you can just tank up super hard in masteries and runes while still doing piles of damage with cleaver and masochism. Garen tentatively added to the list of good lanes - he just doesn't do enough damage, even if you eat a full judgement.
EPT
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