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On November 25 2012 07:22 ShamTao wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 17:15 ReachTheSky wrote:On October 15 2012 03:48 Zabad wrote:
So I just picked up orianna and was wondering whether to max q or w first. The threads I have read have been saying to max w for easy clearing but then I saw TPA Toyz maxing q first in the finals so im wondering is it something that varies by enemy team comp/lane matchup or what?
I prefer to alternate q/w. this is my skill order. q>w>w>q>e>r>w>q>w>q>w etc This way they both scale pretty evenly. So the way I build orianna's abilities overall is r > q > w > e, but my early game skill order is variable.
The point of maxing W over Q is that the slow and speed up scales. Without that I find Q to be better, but since I realized how much better the slow gets with maxed W, I max W most of the time.
Build wise, I feel like skipping Athenes and just go with a RoA, but I don't know what to get for CDR. Thinking about it, I probably wanna go 9/0/21 on her.
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Toyz said in an interview that Orianna is weakest when her Q is on cooldown, so maxing Q reduces this window. Although Toyz is really good at zoning and poking with Q so that also matches his style better.
I vary my skill order depending on what I need each game , since the extra movespeed from W is sometimes really useful for escaping ganks and such.
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Skill order is always a point of debate on Ori. I usually level Q/W evenly personally. Going RoA means no chalice which is the single best laning item on Ori in the game. You also don't really need the bigger mana pool as much as you need regen. I usually finish dcap before turning chalice into athenes though after the nerf especially since chalice is really all you need against any AP laner.
I'll toy with cata against AD lanes.
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Is it acceptable to get both RoA and Chalice before moving to damage items? I like the health and passive catalyst gives me but I keep hearing to go for one or the other, not both.
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Don't bother with chalice or Athene's. Morellomicon gives better stats at a lower cost.
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On January 19 2013 06:59 imBLIND wrote:
Is it acceptable to get both RoA and Chalice before moving to damage items? I like the health and passive catalyst gives me but I keep hearing to go for one or the other, not both.
You can do it but then your damage suffers. You don't really need the health or mana on Ori after lane phase and even during lane the best part of cata is just the regen. You get the same effect though with a flask and chalice lets you harass a lot more than cata does (and chalice is cheaper). Unless your positioning sucks or you're laning against an AD I don't see much appeal to cata/RoA Ori.
Morellos is nice for the CDR but it's not as much mana regen as chalice/athenes which is super vital on such a poke centric champion.
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As far as skill order goes, I usually max W first on orianna although I do max Q first in a few specific matchups (katarina, ahri and other dashing midlaners). It's a point of contention and there's many arguments for both sides but neither side is definitively better than the other.
I've toyed around with Morellonomicon in conjunction with tabis+(RoA /dorans) and it's pretty good against AD lanes since it gives you a very good combination of cdr+tankiness+damage but grail->dcap is still far and away better against any AP lane. I've also found that taking wraiths with morellonomicon tends to run orianna oom rather quickly since it gives less than half the mana regen of grail in most laning circumstances. Outside of lane, having both morellos + RoA is generally enough regen if you can keep blue buff fairly regularly. It has its place but it's definitely not a go-to item in any matchup against an AP carry.
She's definitely a 21/0/9 champion though as far as masteries go. Any item you get with 15%+ cdr puts her at 39%+ with blue buff and she will definitely buy one. The only question is which one you get.
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With the recent surge in AD mids and champs that have very lethal gap closers like akali, fizz, and even master yi, I don't think the old sorc boots+chalice into dcap works anymore on orianna, unless you're on a premade team and above 1700 elo where you're almost guaranteed not to have an idiot on your team that requires a lot of help. Even versus "normal" AP carry champs, I think this is still a better way to play orianna overall because of how teamfights are right now; they're more prolonged and diving for certain champs rather than quickly bursting down all the carries.
So instead of mana regen seals and AP quints, I'm now trying out move speed quints and hp/lv yellows instead, along with scaling ap blues and mpen reds for obvious reasons. I keep 21/0/9 masteries. The health helps against both AP and AD mids, and the movement speed helps with escaping ganks, which I really like after they lowered the movement speed on tier1 boots. W does give a move speed buff, but I prefer some redundancy on survivability right now.
The build I'm trying out right now is flask+2hp+1mana -> cata/tier1 boots -> deathcap. I don't get chalice because athenes now sucks for the price it costs, the mana regen can be replaced by mana items, cdr can come from a different source, and the passive...well you're probably going to be dead before you spam enough spells to use up all the extra mana you get anyways. I also delay lv2 boots until I get the deathcap.
It is a little more expensive than boots/chalice, but looking at it from an objective view, the only items that give around 200 health w/ for AP carries are guise, cata, belt, and 2 doran rings. The doran rings are nice, but they don't build into anything and delay the deathcap. Guise is a little too expensive for me and the upgraded version also sucks on orianna. Belt is okay, but im not a giant fan of rylais on orianna. Cata builds into RoA and Veil, both of which are very good on squishy champs. So I opt for the cata if I'm not 0/4 and extremely behind.
Sustain wise, you won't be able to poke as much as you would with a chalice, but flask and cata should suffice because the laning phase isn't as long as it used to be anymore (at least, thats always how it works in my games anyways...). Also, I choose to go Q>E>W for the first 3 levels, then R>Q>E>W for the rest. W takes too much mana to harass with and a higher E is infinitely more useful for surviving ganks than a higher W is.
After Dcap, I get movement speed boots, a cdr item, and choose between RoA or Veil, depending on how many gap closers they have and how competent my team is. The reasoning behind this is to become a super kiter; now that you do enough damage with Dcap, I build survivability items and movement speed items to become almost untouchable. Plus, orianna is never useless with her AA in the first few teamfights.
With movement speed boots, you will have over 400 movespeed without buffs, which is more than enough to run away from anyone without a slow. If you build a veil, it'll be difficult for them to catch you, and if you build RoA, it'll be difficult for them to finish you off. Combined with the movespeed and your utlity in W, E, and R...you should be alive at the end of most teamfights. This'll also help split the damage between you and your frontline. With Dcap, you'll be doing constant DPS, so they can't ignore you either.
After the core of movement boots, Dcap, RoA / Veil, the last 3 slots can be split between IBG, Lich, Void staff, DFG, Zhonya, rylai, warmog...all depends on the situation and team. I like IBG on her because that slow + CDR+mana+armor makes you a kiting monster.
Thoughts?
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Damn this thread's old, but I'd just like to bump it to ask a question for ori builds as of now.
I've seen people start getting tear on ori recently, and I have tried this a few times myself. I find that getting gear early doesn't really give you any advantages in terms of fighting (but we all know this), and it does help with ori's pushing/extended fights by giving her the mana to move her ball around and whatnot. I still like the chalice -> athenes build since the chalice also gives her some decent MR early and athene's CDR + damage is very nice if you can get it early.
So my question is when do you guys think it's a good idea to get tear and when is it better for an alternative build (athenes or 2 drings into dcap)
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The only times I've seen tear being purchased is when the person wasn't laning vs any AP so the MR portion of chalice was wasted. Instead they went tear + morellos for mana regen/cdr.
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Athenes is good if you don't want to worry about managing mana. Once you get athenes, you can spam spells pretty much all day and not worry about it. You sacrifice some damage but the MR and infinite mana make up for it a bit. Against AD mids, tear -> seraphs + morellos is good, gives more AP than athenes, but requires a bit more mana management than athenes as you can run out pretty easily if you keep spamming spells on cooldown. Double dorans into deathcap is pretty greedy but gives you big burst. The tradeoff is you'll probably run OOM a lot and you won't have much CDR which is pretty important on ori.
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On June 04 2013 01:08 Numy wrote:
The only times I've seen tear being purchased is when the person wasn't laning vs any AP so the MR portion of chalice was wasted. Instead they went tear + morellos for mana regen/cdr.
wouldn't you want drings against an ad mid since they're looking to heavily burst/all in you? Or are you going to try and harrass them with heavy Q spams by getting the early tear?
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If their comp is a dive comp, tear would probably be a good idea to get seraphs. So if im laning versus an akali, diana, any-other-ap-with-a-gap-closer, I would go tear/cata (cata first if the health is needed), roa, seraph.
If their comp has an AD mid, I go cata/armguard into tear or morellos. I get a tear if their entire team is meant for diving, and I get a morellos if i dont have to worry about multiple divers. I know its kinda hard to charge a late tear, but you need a 2nd mana item that will help protect you against divers, and seraphs is the best at that. Getting it earlier will put you at risk in the lane, and Im rarely able to get it before finishing armguard and at least a red crystal.
Versus any other normal AP mid, athenes>dcap all day.
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So, you're basically discarding your CDR with tear/cata build, which is not the best option on Orianna imo.
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On June 06 2013 18:53 Argoth. wrote:
So, you're basically discarding your CDR with tear/cata build, which is not the best option on Orianna imo.
i'd say the tear is un-needed. The ROA is an absolute must vs heavy divers. Adding the seraph's into the mix delays your mid-late game imo. You really want to have roa/deathcap/zhonya by the 35 minute mark vs a dive comp. You can also pick up cdr shoes if needed or go for the athenes after the zhonya if you don't need the voidstaff(most of the time i need the staff though).
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Picked Orianna back up recently, and I'm having a bunch of trouble (apart from the fact that I'm terrible to begin with, and the obvious "ups I used Q while E is on cd, if Hecarim initiates now I can't follow-u- there he goes").
+ Show Spoiler [Because I can't write a short post] +I tried 9-0-21 initially for the mp5 and CDR but it's clearly not enough damage and the mp5 doesn't make up for all the additional spellcasts you need to clear against somebody trying to shove you (since you need a LOT of AP with her ratios and diminishing damage), so I settled for 21-0-9 (21-9-0 against AD mids, or champ with dashes and a bunch of kill potential in general).
Using MPen/armour/MR/AP runes since I want some AP against shovers and it doesn't feel like MS quints would change much with all the mobility creep trends.
Maxing Q first because of cooldown (so vulnerable when Q is on cd, worst of all if E is too) and clears for less mana.
Went grail rush (with sorcs somewhere) into either Deathcap/void/Zhonya's depending on flow, but had the same problem where I just don't have enough AP to clear fast so the additional CDR doesn't help that much. Been trying chalice->deathcap, which is much better for damage (as in hitting a QW actually feels like you do something) but once teamfights start you resent the lack of CDR unless you have blue buff (positioning and people deciding to always dive and focus me first means I die a lot atm so I don't really keep the blue for long past laning).
Chalice -> Deathcap -> Grail would probably feel ideal (that or I get a good positioning and opposing teams that don't send 2 assassins on me every fight) but I often have to work on Zhonya's or Void at that point (I could probably learn to alter my playstyle for utility and then getting Void isn't so important, but sometimes you just can't skip Zhonya's).
Most match-ups felt pretty miserable as long as the opponent had more range than me (825 on Q). A good third of them the jungler came and gifted kills and sometimes buffs so I can't really comment on them (scrub can't win lane by himself -> won't win against buffs at level 3).
Karma, Morgana would just mindlessly push, Brand too (because the jungler put him very ahead, he had the raw AP to), Zed is Zed... and most of the time I'd get outtraded too. I take it that Orianna's safe because she isn't as easy to poke, and she has tools to defend from all-ins (like skilling E at level 2 against Kha for example), but even with autos I never felt like I would outdamage anyone when they'd straight up engage me.
I see mainly 2 reasons to this:
- it's normal since Orianna isn't meant to outtrade people with all the harass potential she has, so the "problem" is me getting in position to be engaged on in the first place.
- if I harass them before, control the damage well enough, and go back to harassing as soon as possible, I'll have done more in the end even though I'll have dealt less during the trade.
Problem with the 2nd part is hitting Q enough (has said, when people have more than 825 range they'd just run away if I went too close, and cast something at the wave) and auto harass, which I must be doing badly since either I take as much damage from creep aggro (should I try to push them away from their wave before harassing, or set myself on the side before doing it?) or whenever I'm in auto range (525) I'll just eat a hard to avoid skillshot without boots (for exemple Brand is in E range and W is pretty hard to dodge at that range too).
I also seem unable to zone anyone but the melee champs with the ball, and wasting a lot of mana just putting it in a threatening place w/o being able to hit the enemy. I guess everytime I move out of leash range and the ball comes back to me without it being the goal of that move, I should consider it a mistake (also going and picking it up can be dangerous depending on position and opponent). Maybe I should try to position it before the waves meet, so I don't push, and I can then force a certain positioning from the enemy laner if he wants to farm safely.
I'm having a bunch of other problems, but I feel that if I learn to first lane her correctly, not being as behind during midgame will make it easier to improve teamfighting.
TL;DR:
1. 21-0-9, Magic or Hybrid pen / armour / MR / AP, QEW R>Q>W>E as generic set-up, yes/no?
2. Chalice core, Seeker's first/early if against an AD champ, then rely on blue buff (and positioning to survive) for CDR while building more damage since completing an early Grail isn't worth it anymore?
3. How do I position the ball exactly? Hit it to punish an early last hit, then weave around it to make that place dangerous and control where the enemy laner stands to last hit? So despite the range (and your lack of escape) don't hesitate to stand in the middle of the lane if that lets you zone the enemy laner?
4. How to use that passive? It incites you to auto several times in a row, but should I just auto once when they last hit or their CDs are down and retreat to avoid aggro, or try to get an auto in then keep them going to win a trade? The creep wave is safer against skillshots, but should I stand aside so I can try to QW people and abuse the slow to chase and auto them without drawing aggro?
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1. Generic ap setup's fine on orianna, I sometimes run MS quints against zed/kha and whatnot but I think that's a preference thing.
2. Chalice is core cause it builds into grail later, but against Ad mids don't get armguard, it doens't give that much ap, nor does it give any form of mana regen/CDR. Build a tear, harass the living shit out of the other guy, and get morello's for the cdr/mp5
3. Most of the time what I do is I QW into them, force them to back off, and auto them a few times, back off myself, and keep the ball where it is or move it horizontally (but always separating enemy from the wave). As for the position of the ball, I don't really know what to tell you except to always remember where you moved it last. A lot of the time if I'm not vigilant I would miss kills or assists just because it took 5 years for my Q to move the ball where I wanted it to go, whereas if I just constantly moved it closer to myself or used E on someone closer, my Q would have made it in time.
4. As for using Orianna's passive you just auto them while standing in your own wave or harass them from the side (away from the creep wave). Use your E and QW accordingly to protect yourself while doing damage, and always keep river warded (you really don't want to get caught with QE on cooldown).
As for you mentioning a grail rush not giving you any damage, I think you're just getting it a bit too late. I've done grail rushes before and if you can get it by like 12-14 minutes or something, you can constantly spam QW even without blue, and clear waves very easily.
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Don't think you should grail rush 100% of the time. Against AD mids tear and morellos works fine. Against guys like zed tear and zonyhas destroy his burst potential on you.
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On June 29 2013 00:00 Nos- wrote:
1. Generic ap setup's fine on orianna, I sometimes run MS quints against zed/kha and whatnot but I think that's a preference thing.
2. Chalice is core cause it builds into grail later, but against Ad mids don't get armguard, it doens't give that much ap, nor does it give any form of mana regen/CDR. Build a tear, harass the living shit out of the other guy, and get morello's for the cdr/mp5
3. Most of the time what I do is I QW into them, force them to back off, and auto them a few times, back off myself, and keep the ball where it is or move it horizontally (but always separating enemy from the wave). As for the position of the ball, I don't really know what to tell you except to always remember where you moved it last. A lot of the time if I'm not vigilant I would miss kills or assists just because it took 5 years for my Q to move the ball where I wanted it to go, whereas if I just constantly moved it closer to myself or used E on someone closer, my Q would have made it in time.
4. As for using Orianna's passive you just auto them while standing in your own wave or harass them from the side (away from the creep wave). Use your E and QW accordingly to protect yourself while doing damage, and always keep river warded (you really don't want to get caught with QE on cooldown).
As for you mentioning a grail rush not giving you any damage, I think you're just getting it a bit too late. I've done grail rushes before and if you can get it by like 12-14 minutes or something, you can constantly spam QW even without blue, and clear waves very easily.
Actually vs ad mids you want to get double dorans off of a cloth 4red/1blue start. The double dorans gives u a nice hp pad,plenty of regen, and the power to push your lane or 1v1 the kha/zed or whoever it may be. If you go tear you propose zero threat vs the enemy laner and cannot push your lane as fast as you need to in order to prevent roaming. From there out just go deathcap into zhonya. You can get your nomicon or grail as your 3rd/4th item.
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Thanks for the whole info. About the drings into deathcap versus AD mids, doesn't that give you pretty low mana regen during sieges and teamfights, on top of pretty late CDR?
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EPT
