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On August 17 2012 04:31 HAL9OOO wrote:
I've been trying jungle AD/Bruiser Gragas lately and its plenty fun. Maxing W first (not sure on whether to max q or e next) and starting either blue or red. He does tons of dmg early game. Just not completely sure how to build him. Have tried wriggles and gp/5 and usually end up getting a randuins at one point or another.
Haha. I tried triforce rush on gragas in Coop vs AI and in normals on my smurf. It's not terribad. He has some sticking power.
When I look at his kit, his W gives him some damage reduction and attack damage, and he gets in melee a lot. So he obviously benefits from crit by a lot and from attack speed a bit. I'd have pegged him for an AD bruiser meant to use the utility of his ult to catch people off guard and to mess up team fights if he were a new champion.
Just learned Q has an attack speed slow which seems to be all the rage right now (Ez, nunu, malphite)
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How does this awesome fat man only have 40 posts in his thread ? Are all TL members affiliated with the AA?
Anyways, retarded bruiser jungle gragas discussion aside I'd like to know what your (generally speaking) gragas build is...
I used to basically rush dcap/vstaff almost every game, ocasionally going for boots of mob for mass ganking as opposed to sorc shoes (but have stopped doing that now since I'm under the impression that people are getting better at warding and/or are more wary of a MIA fat man). Sorcs are generally better...
My main curiosity is about this new "alex ich build" (someone called it that anyways, I have no clue if he was the one who first did it in the competitive scene or not)- sorcs, dorans, kayle's, abyssal, DFG, GA and then you go from there...
I've been trying it out in solo queue and switch between either an abyssal or dcap before the dfg depending on the circumstances and have had relatively decent results with it. Dcap is only if they have 1 AP who I'm completely dominating... The fast abyssal is actually really nice since you can get it with x2 dorans, sorcs, and kayle's by like 22minutes (earliest I've done is 16 but honestly you can't expect that every game..), and at 20-30minutes that extra -20 MR + + 29MP makes you almost true damage people since noone will have bought a neg cloak at this stage of the game unless your the only real threat to the enemy team.
Also the fast abyssal makes you tankier and more usefull to your team (obviously provided that your not the only magic damage dealing champion). Thoughts in comparison to the cookie cutter (Reginald) sorcs, 2-3 doran, dcap, vstaff build, and then generally rylais?
Alex: 7850 + 2 Doran, sorcs, +150ap +95 MR +68armour -20MRaura +one awesome %hp nuke + Resurection on death every 5minute, +5GP/10 untill you upgrade to DFG
Regi: 7150 ;5550 + Giants belt => 6650(dcap vstaff)=>7150 with giant's.; +210AP +40% MP + 430HP +30%AP
I mean obviously you'll be hitting harder with reginald's build in pure damage, but you lose so much utility. I don't know which is better, it's obviously situational but I'm starting to get used to being more durable in early-mid game team fights. . .
Maybe a slightly more tanky build is better for solo queue since you can't actually expect your team mates to help you in any way what so ever...
Thoughts?
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The reason Grag doesn't get a lot of posts is it's entirely about whether you land barrels or not. There's really not much more to him. You land barrels and win lane or you don't and you lose.
I can see the reasoning behind Ich's build, but I think Grag should be sticking to heavy burst damage. That said, I think getting DFG for Gragas is good, and Reginald should incorporate it into his build as well.
I tend to just go boots 3 (or 2 +1), 1 or 2 drings + Kage's, then the next 3 items are all up in the air between DFG/DCap/Abyssal and change depending upon team comp.
Tankiness can be nice on Gragas, but you have such long range that I don't love it that much. Idealy your ult splits them up and 1-2 of them are launched nearer to you to then E into while your team finishes them off. Building extra tankiness seems largely a waste in my experience.
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Froggen also almost always does DFG on Gragas also. CDR is so important when your output is based on basically how many Q's you can throw, so having near-max CDR with blue buff all through the midgame is very nice. Also, DFG + Q + Ulti burst is incredibly strong. I'd say it's even MORE bursty than DCap builds, but I haven't done the math and it would also depend on what you're shooting at, since DFG is % MHP based.
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Body Slam
-Charge speed reduced to 900 from 1050
-Mana cost increased to 75 from 50
Explosive Cask
-Cooldown increased to 100/90/80 seconds from 90/75/60
Ouch. Those nerfs hurt. Gonna have to take another look at my build, the ult CD nerf is fairly signifigant. The charge speed reduction is also big, but I'l have to see how fast it is compared to before.
The good thing is they didn't nerf his damage. Factor a little CDR into your build and you are bursting just as hard as before.
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I just wanted to say I've fallen in love with the fat drunk. Gragas is so fun to play and his impact on team fights is ridiculous. Knock one or two of the enemy into your team and laugh when they get bursted immediately, while knocking the rest of them far away. Combined with the baron stealing power from double tap barrels, the attack speed debuff on his q, and his high mobility, he feels so strong when played well.
He's also surprisingly robust and can go top lane- he doesn't really outright lose to many top laners, so it's easy to sit back and just farm while barreling the melee champion when they try to farm. And the displacement on his ult is amazing when responding to friendly or enemy ganks. Not to mention chasing him down over a prolonged distance is really hard given his dash.
I really like the two dorans rings/deathcap/morello's build that Scarra used in the LCS (probably some others). I find the extra health buffer is really quite nice early on and lets you play more aggressively.
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I'l have to try out that build a few times. Recently I've just stick with the early Chalice > spam poke until they are low > burst approach. If I need the health early, I usually just go for a Guise, but haven't really considered Drings.
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Two doran's rings has its downsides (you're pretty much obligated to max w over e), but it's definitely a good alternative to chalice.
Also I've been thinking about the possibility of Gragas/Thresh. I know most wombo combos involve keeping people in the box, but if you land perfect explosive cask you could potentially knock their entire team in 5 different directions while applying the slow/damage from the box.
Was thinking something like Gragas/Malphite/Thresh could potentially be amazing. Thresh surrounds the enemy team in the box, Malphite ults in, Gragas knocks them every which way. Probably a better idea on paper than in reality. Although perhaps the combo potential alone would get the enemy team to spread out a ton, leaving them even more vulnerable to a single person eating a Gragas ult.
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So I think Tank Jungle Gragas may be legit. Here's the deal.
Initial skill order is WQE. Max W first. This gives you durability, mana sustain, and mad auto-attack damage. Between Q's attack speed slow and W's crazy offense/defense steroid, Gragas can actually stand his ground well against many (though not all) of the better jungle duelists. Thanks to E's low, and flat, cooldown his early ganks are also nothing to sniff at.
You can choose to either max Q or E second. I've been tending toward E because its mana cost doesn't change, it scales with W, and you do need something mana-efficient to help you clear unless you're hogging blue buffs. However, Q is viable and even necessary if your team needs additional wave clear.
The standard meta build works really well. SS -> Golem -> SV -> Randuin's results in an incredibly tanky fat man. As long as you're spamming abilities in fights you're regenerating 0.5% Health per second, which is better than both Mundo and Garen's passives. Add in Q's attack speed slow, E's spammability, and the huge initiation/disruption threat from R and you've got everything the meta demands.
If you feel your team needs more damage you can swap Abyssal for Spirit Visage, or you can skip both for a Zhonya's if you want Armor/Damage because they have no AP threats.
You can run pretty much any runes/masteries you want, but I recommend a typical defensive setup.
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The Warren Buffett of LoL is running jungle gragas.
Time to hop on the elo train and buy gragas miright?
Do you get Tabi's or Mobis? Are CDR boots viable?
What do his pre-6 ganks feel like and how good is he in 2v2 situations?
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I'm Warren Buffet? o.O
Either Tabi or Mobi's work. I heavily favor Tabi, but that's personal preference. One of the critiques I've received regarding my jungling in the TL IHs is that I pretty much never go Mobi's.
His pre-6 ganks are strong thanks to the extremely low CD on Body Slam. Blue Buff combined with the ~10% CDR from my typical Rune/Mastery setup puts the CD at a mere 5 seconds. It also hurts like hell if you can isolate your target (80 + 66% of AD is easily 140+ damage at level 3).
2v2 he is actually surprisingly strong. He takes 10-18% less damage straight out thanks to W, slows attack speed by 20%, and has 30 additional AD. E hurts even if it's split between two targets. He's not quite Udyr/Lee Sin level in terms of dueling/2v2, but he's up there.
The hardest part of this is keeping your W up during fights. Unless fights are extremely one-sided the buff will almost always drop mid-fight. At that point you need to judge whether you can even channel it, what you might lose if you stop to do so, and whether you wouldn't have accomplished anything without it anyway (70 AD is a lot).
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I've done it a lot on my smurf, even maxing Q can work although you need a mana item then.
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Reporting back on Tank Jungle Gragas.
While I'm still of the opinion that it's legit, I highly doubt it will catch on. You have to land his ult in a team fight to be on par with other junglers, and that's going to be an issue for most players. That said, if your ults fall consistently between half-decent and awesome, then he's definitely a competitive option.
Late-late game he should definitely transition into an AP/Tank mix. While you may start Golem+SV+Randuin's, following it up with Abyssal + Zhonya's makea a huge difference in your late game teamfight presence.
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Is Athenes -> Void staff a good option on Gragas? The % scaling is 90% on Q and 50% on E, with 100% on R. I'm not sure if that makes him a good candidate for going void second or not.
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Ketara (I think?) came to the conclusion that unless you have a heal or shield benefiting a ton from AP, Void staff is pretty much always a better second item (than DC).
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It's not a bad idea, especially if you're not able to find the gold to get an NLR in one back. Some people don't even get athenes as a first item if they can get a NLR after 2 Drings.
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On October 16 2013 01:39 Duvon wrote:
Ketara (I think?) came to the conclusion that unless you have a heal or shield benefiting a ton from AP, Void staff is pretty much always a better second item (than DC).
Deathcap allows you to farm easier, and waveclear easier, though its less gold efficient for killing champions.
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you don't need that much ap to waveclear as gragas though. you can 1 shot ranged with athenes+voidstaff. I've been building deathcap most of the times because everyone does it but voidstaff seems to be the better option, especially when you want to use E offensively you bump into bruisers quite often. Popular items like sv, mercs, athenes make voidstaff a really good second item.
Going athenes first is right in 80% of the time. When I face AD assassins/carries like riven/yasuo/zed etc. Then I delay athenes for about 3 items and go a RoA + HG first. The cool thing about gragas: He can also be played more aggressively/tanky if needed because he scales so well with defense items as well.
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is W or E the standard second skill to max? maybe E max with athene's, W first without the chalice regen?
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EPT
