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8748 Posts
On November 03 2012 00:03 Slayer91 wrote:
Nobodies going dring over philo, the build suggested was philo+dring over philo+hog before you buy aegis.
Azingy is. In the recent games I've seen in his match history, he has never gotten philo stone and he's gotten this many rings: 1, 3, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 3. Sorc boots in every game and always goes either abyssal or sunfire next. And then FH.
I really think it's about getting useful stats ASAP. If you want your ganks to matter then you gotta build like that. Your first two ults should be getting kills and if you go defensive boots or gp10 items then they might not get kills.
Also I think he's usually using mpen, flat armor, flat mr, ap quints. 0/21/9
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philo keeps your HP up in the jungle so you can react better to ganks and have more freedom to gank. The miniscule extra ap drings give you won't matter that much in ganks, the jungler should also be the last source of damage in ganks. Shurelias is also pretty important so there's really no point in skipping philo ever. Amumu's just a not a very good jungler to all in with, but if you really wanted to I'd go like mobility boots first, then ring.
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He's a bit like Malphite - generally builds gp5->defensive items out of the jungle because they're the most cost efficient items, and his role is an initiator instead of main damage source. But top lane Malphites often build the same way as AP amumu - sorc/sunfire/abyssal. It's hard for most junglers to consistently get that kind of farm, but if you can do it, then hey why not.
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On November 03 2012 00:40 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 00:03 Slayer91 wrote:
Nobodies going dring over philo, the build suggested was philo+dring over philo+hog before you buy aegis. Azingy is. In the recent games I've seen in his match history, he has never gotten philo stone and he's gotten this many rings: 1, 3, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 3. Sorc boots in every game and always goes either abyssal or sunfire next. And then FH. I really think it's about getting useful stats ASAP. If you want your ganks to matter then you gotta build like that. Your first two ults should be getting kills and if you go defensive boots or gp10 items then they might not get kills. Also I think he's usually using mpen, flat armor, flat mr, ap quints. 0/21/9
2 Dorans gives you a full combo damage increase of 60. If you can survive an extra tower hit you can just hit them again with an auto attack, that's the difference. How many time will that make your first and second ults a kill or not?
Sorcs boots are sorc boots. They make you do more damage but defensive boots help you dive and survive teamfights. I build them situationally and I think they are much better than dorans rings. Mercs also let you do more damage simply by getting CC'd less you can get more DPS off with autos E and W if surviving isn't a problem.
I don't think amumu needs stats ASAP. He's not really an early game powerhouse and his lategame is so strong that if you by whatever misfortune lose a kill or something because of that 60 damage it's still fine because as long as you have zero deaths going into midgame you're going to make it up easily the more tanky you are the bigger threat you are because your base damage is so strong. The problem with azingys build is he's pretty investing (475+750+~1900+800)=almost 4k gold on damage which makes him much easier to poke down or cc and focus. Sure sometimes you'll get that extra 100 damage per target with your abyssal ult but your death relies so much pressure from their entire team because of your Q's defensively and offensively good for peeling killing carrries or supporting killing carries.
I think shurelyas+sorcs+abyssal+chain vest or shurelyas+sorcs+negatron+glacial is much more versatile.
Per AP changes I'd say it's completely situational, but now I'd say most of the time being tankier is better than doing slightly more damage in the initiation phase.
Sunfire abyssal isn't really that common on top malphite either. Alex ich did the azingy build on mid malphite but he abanoned it with the malphite nerfs. I'm going abyssal and sunfires sometimes but malphites builds are pretty flexible and stuff like randuins, frozen heart, ga, shurelyas and warmogs are all great items. (Often you leave the negatorn there until last item or get chalice into athenes if you need it for lane for MR)
I decided to run some napkin math on the numbers for AP vs CDR on amumu.
+ Show Spoiler +
DPS Calculations for amumu at max level, 100 ap
8.75 DPS from Q
~20 DPS from W
8.3 DPS from E
Combo damage + 200
DPS +~37
Sunfire = ~40 DPS
0% CDR
Q does 40 DPS
W does 78 DPS
E does 30 DPS
Combo damage =923 damage
Combo damage without R = 573 every 8 seconds
40% CDR
Q does 67 DPS
E does 58.3 DPS
+~55 dps
Combo damage = 573 every 4.8 seconds
aproximate cost for 40% CDR = 1500
approximate cost for 100 ap = 2k
The numbers here show that both CDR and ap in theory are pretty bad in comparision to sunfire cape but we see few people buy sunfire cape. The reason here is that amumu does not have heavy sticking power and also isn't very tanky both of which contribute to having trouble sitting there with sunfire ticking. So even if the AP +spell pen+sunfire combo look great on paper being able to back off and recombo with Q E and back off again is a safer and more reliable way to do damage than just running at them while getting CC'd (no mercs remember).
Same reason you wouldn't buy sunfire on malph is that you do a lot of damage just from your Q and E and R mid/late game, but in lane most of your DPS will come from sunfire and auto attacks.
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As someone who plays with Azingy on a pretty regular basis, I wouldn't recommend his build to starting Amumu players. He plays an extremely aggressive Amumu (and does it really early on), mixing up his jungle and gank paths depending on the situation.
If you're starting out on Amumu, definitely run the standard 2 gp10 build as it gives you the greatest versatility (even if you're not doing too great) come late game.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
My goodness so many things to respond to. This will be one hell of a post but I kinda have to involve myself in this so here ya go
On November 03 2012 00:08 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 00:03 Slayer91 wrote:
Nobodies going dring over philo, the build suggested was philo+dring over philo+hog before you buy aegis.
Fast haunting guise is kinda dumb because of how low amumus damage is when his Q has like a billion second cd and you're not that tanky. Speak for yourself. The entire earlier part of this page was some guy saying double dring over gp5, for better teamfight presence. Haunting guise is no less dumb that double doran - they're both dead end items that provide hp and damage. If you don't want hog then, like my post said, buy something useful (like kindlegem or parts for aegis) instead of dring. You should be maxing Q early anyway (with only 1-2 points in E). CDR is not bad on amumu but certainly not the most important stat for him. Haunting guise is perfectly fine for pub stomp builds where you don't have to be too tanky, but competitive builds have always been gp5->aegis/shurelia/chainvest item.
Yeah, as far as I know nobody (notable) reccomends building Haunting Guise at all. It is overshadowed by Aegis, Shurelyas and similiarly costed items.
Dring is useful after Philostone. Firstly, you don't need to buy manapots afterwards, so it saves a bit of money. Secondly, it gives you very cost-efficient amount of fighting stats that are very useful for both ganking and fighting (extra damage, HP for towerdiving/tanking). And thirdly, it ever so slightly increases your farming speed (with my rate of farming and without doran's ring I'll have to wait about 2-3 seconds to kill wraiths with my W, same for wolves).
You should justify your statement that you should max Q. Firstly, I disagree with that, secondly, Slayer91 disagree with that (both of us are the Amumu experts of LP UEW) and thirdly, the Azubu Frost ? guy who played Amumu once in the S2 grand finals maxed E. I agree, CDR is not the most important stat for Amumu, but it is useful certainly. I disagree, I think Haunting Guise is a terrible pubstomp item (speaking from experience). Yes, philostone into aegis+shurelyas is standard (whether to include HoG in there is a matter of debate)
On November 03 2012 00:10 Slayer91 wrote:
not making e really slows down your farming though right? Q is so fucking mana intensive for a single target spell and the main reason you run out of mana in general. I'd prefer to just farm like a boss to level 13 and wreck kids.
Double dolans isn't good anymore if it ever was because of the ap nerfs. Teamfight presence is highly theoretical in the early game because at best there's a 5v5 dragon fight and more typically there's random skirmishes that break out around the map from jungler and laner interaction usually mid+jungles going to bot or top. Philo will keep you probably healthier than the dorans and the money saved on hp pots and the gp10 for later makes it a much more versatile option.
You generally shouldn't be looking for fights early as amumu anyway you want to either gank OR maybe fight if your ult is up. Hopefully the threat of an early ult stops them grouping too early and you can farm up to reduce cds (remember E reduces A LOT too when you level it if you're getting hit the -0.5 second cd is more significant if you already have CDR items and higher levels in it)
Yes maxing E makes you farm really slow and yes, Q is the large mana drain on Amumu. Double Dorans is still alright though I'd personally do it only if my top laner would get Shurelyas for me. The main point aren't really skirmishes as much as counterganks. With philo you usually lose them but with double Doran's you don't give a single fuck (simplified explanation but you get the point). But yeah it probably is a very niche build.
No you shouldn't look for fights if you build Philo but you should look for fights if you build Dorans. That's kind of the whole point.
Damn this I'll edit in more responses later. So much effort.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2012 04:36 Scip wrote:
Dring is useful after Philostone. Firstly, you don't need to buy manapots afterwards, so it saves a bit of money. Secondly, it gives you very cost-efficient amount of fighting stats that are very useful for both ganking and fighting (extra damage, HP for towerdiving/tanking). And thirdly, it ever so slightly increases your farming speed (with my rate of farming and without doran's ring I'll have to wait about 2-3 seconds to kill wraiths with my W, same for wolves).
I'm not sure I agree with 2Dring after Philo. The marginal gain of buying 2 DRings after Philo seems less than the marginal gain of just finishing Shurelya's at that point.
On August 21 2012 07:59 TheYango wrote:
Not sold on Philo + 2DRing vs. Shurelya's.
Shurelya's - 2200 gold, 1 item slot for:
330 HP
30 HP5
15 MP5
15% CDR
Shurelya's active
vs.
Philo + 2xDRing - 1750 gold, 3 item slots for:
160 HP
15 HP5
18 MP5
30 AP
5 gp10
The extra AP doesn't feel like it's worth giving up the early ult CDR (which actually matters quite a bit on the lower ult ranks), the Ruby Crystal's worth of extra HP, and the vastly superior positioning power due to having Shurelya's active relatively early.
I'd say the Shurelya's active is more instrumental for ganking/counterganking than some token AP.
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8748 Posts
On November 03 2012 02:55 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
As someone who plays with Azingy on a pretty regular basis, I wouldn't recommend his build to starting Amumu players. He plays an extremely aggressive Amumu (and does it really early on), mixing up his jungle and gank paths depending on the situation.
If you're starting out on Amumu, definitely run the standard 2 gp10 build as it gives you the greatest versatility (even if you're not doing too great) come late game.
This seems like the opposite of the proper conclusion. Ganking well with Amumu seems more difficult than team fighting and team fighting is going to happen anyway. So playing games without early aggression is just missing out on practicing early aggression. I can see how your suggestion would yield a better initial win rate but I don't see how it's a better way to start learning the champion. And since anyone who doesn't really desperately need to win wouldn't play a new champion in the first place, everyone is better off learning Amumu by playing an aggressive style. I mean it's not like he's the type of champion that has weird combos and mechanics to get comfortable with.
Once someone gets pretty good at ganking with a build geared toward aggression, then they can do the much more difficult thing of going back and picking up a philo stone and accomplishing the same things as when they go back and pick up two rings.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
No not 2* Dorans after philostone, only 1 Dring (2 drinks is too slot intensive, also you shouldn't need the extra manareg. of the second one)
I guess I'll write the skeleton of the guide here tommorow (european) morning and have you guys quality check it to make sure I didn't forget anything.
Like Dring vs. Shurelyas, Dring is cheap so like it makes you stronger up until the point where you would finish Shurelyas otherwise and then it gets even once the Dring builder gets Shurelyas so it's like be a bit stronger for 925 gold and then be weaker for 475 gold (using "gold" as time measurement here)
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I tried the 2x dring thing. Felt really squishy in any fights remotely even. Died more than I should have. We were winning a lot (karthus op) and once i had sorcs and abyssal I Could burst their squishies pretty hard but it felt more like a gimmicky 1v1 thing and I can always go shurelya aegis abyssal sorcs anyway. (at one point I killed their graves when he was farming bot tf ulted and I bursted him a bit ran into brush at 30% he was about 50% and q'd out and killed him lol)
Didn't feel like something you'd use in a tournament, just gimmicky solo queue stuff, but I am a bit biased here for sure.
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I am still waiting for any explanation as to why you would be more squishy with 2 dorans then with the standard gp10 build.
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Kinda the same reasoning as with Udyr philo>HoG I guess: your E reduces damage, so the regen from philo helps keeping you healthy (Udyr's shield), while double doran makes you clear camps more quickly but the damage you take sticks (HoG gives you more HP but that only beats philo if you're at 100% HP, which you won't without regen).
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On November 03 2012 05:03 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 02:55 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
As someone who plays with Azingy on a pretty regular basis, I wouldn't recommend his build to starting Amumu players. He plays an extremely aggressive Amumu (and does it really early on), mixing up his jungle and gank paths depending on the situation.
If you're starting out on Amumu, definitely run the standard 2 gp10 build as it gives you the greatest versatility (even if you're not doing too great) come late game. This seems like the opposite of the proper conclusion. Ganking well with Amumu seems more difficult than team fighting and team fighting is going to happen anyway. So playing games without early aggression is just missing out on practicing early aggression. I can see how your suggestion would yield a better initial win rate but I don't see how it's a better way to start learning the champion. And since anyone who doesn't really desperately need to win wouldn't play a new champion in the first place, everyone is better off learning Amumu by playing an aggressive style. I mean it's not like he's the type of champion that has weird combos and mechanics to get comfortable with. Once someone gets pretty good at ganking with a build geared toward aggression, then they can do the much more difficult thing of going back and picking up a philo stone and accomplishing the same things as when they go back and pick up two rings.
The problem is, Amumu isn't the greatest early game ganker. You're not gaining anything by playing Amumu aggressively early on that you wouldn't get from actual early game ganking junglers (you might as well play Lee Sin). Azingy plays a very weird + specific style and requires a lot of coordination from his team (definitely a lot for solo queue, even at high elo) and that is the main success of his playstyle. If you try running his style of play without the right coordination from your team it won't work; learning a safe/standard way of playing amumu (double gp10s) is a lot better for solo queue at lower elos.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Ok so here's the guide skeleton tell me if you like it or if I should change anything
Skills:
Passive
- not very significant, has some synergy with Mpen and Magic Reduction, another reason to autoattack in teamfights, that's kinda it
Bandage Toss
- Mechanics of how it works etc copied straight from wiki (I have no shame)
- Usage in ganks: wait for an opponent to be in a position where he can't dodge/can dodge only by using flash OR throw it from fog of war (brush)
- Usage in teamfights: Initiating in combination with the ultimate, using it to stick and stun an important target (usually AD or AP carry) or, if your carries are significantly stronger, use it to peel for them
- Also a possible escape tool around wraiths/small golems or deep in a lane
Despair
- not really much to say here I guess, just turn it on in teamfights and jungle.
Tantrum
- Tanking creeps in lane fights to maximize your deeps
- Casting animation, might want to just red buff autoattack instead
- Mash that E button in teamfights
Curse of the Sad Mummy (best ultimate name ever)
- Usage in gank or smaller fights; ultimate then bandage toss for maximum amount of guaranteed CC/bandage or ulti if you aren't in range for ult zzz, Initiation with Bandage+ulti or counterinitiation (whatever that is, just ult when they jump in and you have 4 people in range).
- Wombo combo, Malphite/Orianna/Sona shit like that. Whoever has massive AoE ultimate works lol.
Masteries:
0/21/9 and explanation yaddy yadda, don't think anyone uses anything else?
Runes:
Armor or Magic Pen reds, I prefer Armor but I'll give some room to Mpen, also Drings+Mpen=alright
Armor yellows not much to add
Flat MR/MR18/Flat AP/Flat CDR long writeup about the difference between scaling and flat Mres zzz I personally prefer flat AP or CDR; AP is good for faster jungling also a bit more fighting strenght, CDR gives both of that too but also shortens CD on your first few ultimates so that's cute. I'll just say "it's your choice" in the end but we all know the runes I prefer are superior so yeah. Just to not offend anyone I guess.
Movement Speed quints, does anyone use anything else? I can mention flat AP if you want but it's kinda shitty imo, doesn't really speed up your jungle.
Summoner Spells:
Flash+Smite, surprise mothafaka
Skill order:
- WEQEER R>E>Q>W is the most standard, fastest for jungling, doesn't necessarily provide most fighting power but gives you most sustain in jungle and also the extra exp from faster farming DO give extra fighting power so yeah. Generally the preffered option.
- WEQEQ R>Q>E>W(/R>Q>W>E?) No one but Azingy (does he really?) use it so it's kinda only for weirdos. A bit stronger ganks (arguably because you are lower level, ho-ho-ho) and better fighting strenght, but seriously it slows down your jungling quite a lot. If you do that you probably best make your middle lane tax your wraiths and/or wolves constantly.
Items:
- Boots+3 start is the only way to go naturally
- Philostone first is standard for obvious reasons (sustain+Shurelya's, yaay)
- HoG is terrible but people do it so provide some justification for it (it's great if you build Randuin's eventually, usually when it doesn't matter anymore, whoooooo)
- Doran's Rings; can get one after Philostone, I think it's really good because it saves on manapots and also why not you have a spare slot so gogo Doran's. Also, you can build 2 of them instead of Philostone, you'll need some HP pots though, gives massive fighting strenght, need o be fkin aggro in lanes early to make it pay off. Also if you build 2 of them building into Shurelyas is awkward so you usually go Abyssal+Sunfire which is weird but w/e.
- Doran's Shield is cool, if they have a lot of Physical damage gives MASSIVE survivability so yeah. Build it after Philostone though you probably don't wan't to just build it first item. Good for tower diving (something Slayer aka Teut likes to do)
- OH YEAH WARDS AND POTS forgot 'bout that. Wards are awesome and you should buy them a lot, the usual warding places and why they are good. etcetera. Pots are good. HP pots early but usually you don't need them later on if you get Philostone, but you want to have a manapot or 2 in your inventory JUST IN CASE. Like, you finish your jungle path, have 150 mana and BOOM a fight starts happening but you are fine because you just pop your mana pots. Don't need them later on because your natural mana pool increases. Don't need them if you go philostone+Dring either.
- Mercs vs. Ninja easy choice, if little to no CC and/or magic damage, go Tabi, otherwise Mercs. Sorc boots are for weirdos who build 2 * Dring. Coolio.
- Standard build: Aegis+Shurelyas, standard for obvious reasons that I'll explain there yaay. Shurelyas vs. Aegis first kinda your choice, depends on how you want to teamfight and stuff I GOT THIS will explain nyan
- Sunfire+Abyssal, it's weird only Bly and Azingy do it and it's only if you go Doran's Ring first. Because if you want to build these items why did you build Philostone in the first place eh? so yeah deals deeps you usually don't need deeps w/e you want deeps. Note how fkin expensive it is though.
- Follow up items, Randuins vs. FH, so FH is for more bandage toss to stick to someone with blinks and stuff, Randuins gives enough sticking power against walkers, also synergizes with your ultimate. Randuins also gives more survivability. If you have a hardon for Mitt Romney and went HoG you can build it into Randuins now, congratulations.
- Banshees vs. FoN (I think Banshees is kinda universally better?)
- That's kinda it for items? Idk not that many good possible items because offense in general is kinda useless.
Jungling:
- Start blue buff, can start red buff if you want to do cheeky stuff like gank unexpected lanes at unexpected times, got this yeah
- Keeping around middle lane is usually good because your mid ganks are really good
- When doing jungle path don't start at Wraiths because it doesn't make sense
- When you ultimate is up you can most likely get kills, go get 'em gurl!
- gank pushed lanes, gank lanes where your teammates have hard CC, countergank lanes with your ultimate, zzzz I'll write it when I write it you got the drill
- fighting in even numbers is generally not a great idea if you went philostone, it is a marvelous fucking idea if you went double Dring though.
- Champions that are hard to gank and easy to gank, nyaaan, you know that stuff
- You are ok not great at doing dragon, explanation on when you can do it and stuff (generally after you get a kill with your ultimate and no one on your team is low on HP)
Teamfights:
- Initiate or follow up another initiate (also known as WOMBO COMBO)
- do that only if it's a good idea (you are strong enough to win the fight because you are awesome or because you have ze numbers advantage)
- If they jump on your first you can lock them down pretty sweet
- Hitting bandages is easy because enemies have other stuff to do than dodge your skillshots. Going after enemy carry is often a good idea.
- You can also use Bandage to peel for your carry but do that only if your carry is strong (otherwise it's a waste of time obviously)
- Throw Bandage and if you see it'll hit, use Shurelyas to make it easier for your team to follow up.
- You do decent amount of damage so that good. Autoattack them female canines for your passive, it's really not that special to teamfight as Amumu apart from using them Bandages well.
Good teammates and Mortal enemies:
WOMBO COMBO so Orianna, Malphite, Sona, Morgana (kinda) all works awesum. Karthus for similiar reasons. For laning phase if your middle lane has hard CC you can gank that lane sooo hard it's great. You want your backline to do a lot of damage so maybe go for Corki or Kog instead of Ashe or whatever your fetish may be.
Some people hate to play against Lee because "counterjungle boo", don't really have troubles with him. Hate Shaco but everyone hates Shaco so yeah. Janna is annoying, as is anyone else who will knock you away (alistar, jayce). Idk, I haven't identified other mortal enemies, anyone has any ideas?
Note:
Amumu is a viable jungler that's definitely pickable, just so everyone knows. He is really good, snuff him alongside kittens.
so that's it, did I forget/should I change anything?
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FoN much better than banshees wtf
unless you're a fag and didnt buy frozen heart so you have zero mana pool
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On November 03 2012 22:03 Slayer91 wrote:
FoN much better than banshees wtf
unless you're a fag and didnt buy frozen heart so you have zero mana pool
wow, manner
I mean Banshees and FoN should provide about the same? survivability because Banshees gives extra HP
So it's like, buy Banshees if they don't have much long range poke and/or you don't have any other flat mana items AND you need the MR. Otherwise go for FoN?
But isn't FH+FoN quite terrible because then your HP is quite low? I mean you get like 600 from Shurelyas+Aegis but that¨s still not close to ideal
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FoN is almost always better because it absorbs all poke gives you more speed and more magic resist all of which help you get the engage timing you want which is all that matters at that stage of the game. Blocking one spell is only useful if you're going to engage immidiately instead of QIng tanks and letting your team damage them to force a bad engage. Thats when you either force the tanks closer to their squishies and you engage or your ult split their team and you focus down their tanks.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Alright I'll reccomend some FoN but I like Banshees better so they'll get their place in there as well. Anything else?
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On November 03 2012 21:49 Scip wrote:
If you have a hardon for Mitt Romney and went HoG
Fuck, I'm laughing right now. >.>
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You should also mention oracles, when to get it and when not. And Mobos. They are quite fun if you can afford to not get the tankiness from other boots. In Soloqueue they are very often superior to other boots, and i have seen them used in competative play, too. Mobo amumu ganks are terror, and you get a really good initiate with them, too.
Also, if you start red, you pretty much need a smiteless leash there, because if you go something like wraiths-red-blue that is about as long as your manapool lasts, not having smite up for blue would probably force you back due to hp loss if you do blue, and due to no mana if you do a longer route that waits for smite to come up again for blue.
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EPT
