EPT[Champion] Amumu - Page 15
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11330 Posts
This means that if you expect non-onesided fights to happen, for a large period of the game the dorans start is strictly superior to the gp10s. 2 dorans give a similar amount of combat stats as both gp10s combined for 675g less. I personally don't really miss the health regen from philo and don't think i really drop low in the jungle. I will watch this a bit more in the future. If the health regen really has a neglectable effect, it will take your gp10s a lot of time to generate 675g. Starting with 2 dorans does not force you to suddenly go crazy ap mummy, you can still follow your normal build path easily. The main think this boils down to for me is that neither Shurelyas nor Randuins are that good on amumu in my opinion, which makes getting the gp10 items much less attractive then on other similar junglers like skarner. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On November 02 2012 06:26 Sandster wrote: Spell vamp quints for Amumu are...terrible. If you are concerned about falling too low on health run armor or AP quints instead of MS quints. HP/5 quints ftw. | ||
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adriftt
335 Posts
On November 02 2012 10:17 Simberto wrote: Well, compare this to a different build. 2 dorans + sorc boots cost you 1700g. With a 2x gp10 build, for 1625 g, you would have a philo and a HoG which give you a total combat stats of 200 health. Obviously, dorans are superior here with 160 health, 30 ap and 20 spellpen +boots2 at this point. This means that if you expect non-onesided fights to happen, for a large period of the game the dorans start is strictly superior to the gp10s. 2 dorans give a similar amount of combat stats as both gp10s combined for 675g less. I personally don't really miss the health regen from philo and don't think i really drop low in the jungle. I will watch this a bit more in the future. If the health regen really has a neglectable effect, it will take your gp10s a lot of time to generate 675g. Starting with 2 dorans does not force you to suddenly go crazy ap mummy, you can still follow your normal build path easily. The main think this boils down to for me is that neither Shurelyas nor Randuins are that good on amumu in my opinion, which makes getting the gp10 items much less attractive then on other similar junglers like skarner. I couldn't disagree with you more. Doran's Rings on amumu is just so inefficient.. if you want HP there are better items as 950 gold for 160 HP isn't great. The MP5 is not needed and is also given by philo. The AP can be nice, but if you want ap you should build abyssal scepter instead of delaying it by wasting money on dorans rings. Also I'm not sure why you think Shurelyias and Randuins are not good. Since amumus primary role is initiator and he benefits from all of the stats on Shurelyias I don't know why you wouldn't want it. Randuins is one of the better tank items in the game and is always worth upgrading to as 5th or 6th item if you need more armor than frozen heart is giving you. If you don't need the randuins, just let the HoG sit there and pay for tiself while giving you HP then sell it and buy whatever 6th item you want. The only benefit of the dorans rings is a slightly stronger early game but your sacrificing securing gp10 to do it. Its like buying a soulstealer.. if you go dorans rings and don't snowball then you are going to be pretty useless as you aren't tanky and don't really do damage either. I think its pretty optimal to go philo/hog -> aegis + boots 2 -> situational in almost every game. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11330 Posts
The mp5 is on both philo and the dorans, which is why i did not mention it, and it is in my opinion really important to jungling if you give away the second blue. This is why you could not simply directly buy tankiness in the form of an aegis or dorans shields in my opinion. Without any manareg, jungling is pretty annoying, and you are oom in important situations way too often. The main problem with Philo + HoG is that they give you such an abysmal amount of combat stats at an important point in the game, and i don't see the gp10 paying for it fast enough. I don't get where your "you are not tanky enough because you bought 2 dorans rings" comes from. It is simply not rooted in reality, since the gp10s do not make you more tanky, and the amount of time you need to hold onto them to make enough money to make you more tanky is large, too. It takes you more then 10 minutes to even make up the 675 gold you paid more for your gp10s for less combat stats, and then an additional time to make even more money from them to actually reach the better stats the 2 dorans rings give. This means that you will be a lot weaker during multiple important early fights, which can easily have a much larger impact on your lategame then the income from your 2 gp10s. In a normal game, you will get your aegis much faster with 2 dorans then with 2 gp10s. Thus, with 2 dorans you are both more tanky AND do more damage for at least the first 20 minutes of a game, usually longer. This means you are stronger during the whole early and a lot of the midgame, giving your team advantages in countergank situations, invades, dragon fights etc...You get your aegis faster for the aura, you get boots2 faster for better ganks, and i don't see the later advantages of the gp10s surpass the positive effects of your early strength (which also leads to more money/less money for the enemies) in anything but the most passive games. Also, your equalizing not buying gp10 with buying snowball items is quite ridiculous. Following that logic everyone should buy 4 gp10 items for a better lategame, and of course you can always sell them after they paid for themselves. | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11330 Posts
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adriftt
335 Posts
And the snowball thing is not ridiculous because we are talking about jungle amumu. Junglers have limited income because they are not normally farming in a lane - buying non-gp10 items is only worth it if you think they will make you strong enough to secure kills or assists that you would not be able to create if you had gp10. If you buy dorans rings and have a bad early game you will be useless. If you buy gp10 and have a bad early game you are not completely fucked. | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
Edit: The problem with rushing Abyssal is the ingrediants are much more expensive and not as useful as double dorans in the beginning. Blasting wand is only slightly cheaper than two dorans and gives no mana/health for only slightly more power. Utilizing the variety of stats dorans gives you for such a cheap cost is pretty important. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11330 Posts
And adrifft, i don't think you are correct. In my opinion, you need to have some sort of mana itemisation early on amumu, which limits what you can buy. Both the things you mentioned do not solve this problem. Rushing abyssal is also not very smart since you are squishy as fuck with only an abyssal against half the enemy team. Haunting guise also does not solve your mana problems. The main advantage of dorans is that they are cheap, give you the mana you need, and have other stats that you like, too. Neither an abyssal or a haunting guise do this, and they are both at a higher pricepoint, too. Especially the rather expensive abyssal sceptre. If i would think i did not need the mana, i would probably just rush an aegis as my first item. However, i do not think so, and the mixed stats on the dorans rings make them a pretty good first buy if you want to have a strong early-midgame and don't want to uselessly delay your teamfighting power by buying gp10s. The rings are a stepping stone that delivers a good mix of important stats before you get your real items, while not delaying them by too much. Neither rushing abyssal nor buying a haunting guise can do this. I don't want to have a cheesy allin build, i want a solid gameplan that makes me strong early enough without sacrificing my lategame. I think you greatly overestimate how much income gp10 items give you. They have their place, but i think amumu is one of the junglers who is better of without them in most situations. If you expect an incredibly long laning phase, getting gp10s is still a good options. But in a normal game with lots of fighting occuring in both jungles for buffs, 2v2s and 3v3s with both junglers involved in lanes, and maybe even a fight for dragon early on, i don't want to waste my first 1600g on 500g worth of combat stats. I might experiment with skipping the dorans altogether for a faster aegis, but i expect to have rather large mana problems with this, making me incredibly blue dependent for longer then i want to be. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
If you won't get 2nd blue buff, you need mana regeneration, otherwise you would have to build an unhealthy amount of mana pots (can you die of overdose of blue drinks?). Since you 99% of the time wanna give 2nd blue to your mid I am going to assume you need mana regen. Possible sources are Philostone and Doran's Ring. So, when do you want which? It doesn't REALLY depend so much on how many early fights you expect, simply because it is so fkin hard to predict, it depends mostly on how early/if at all do you want to build Shurelya's. Generally, if you get them before Aegis, after Aegis or maaaaaaybe(probably not though) after the item you build after Aegis, then go for Philostone. Otherwise there is a very real chance you wouldn't get to finish it whole game and that would be a shame indeed. So the real question is, HoG or not HoG? Well, HoG is really quite a shitty item. The only reason to ever buy it on a jungler is if you want to build Randuins. But then you have a problem because You want Aegis+Shurelyas (or Abyssal+Sunfire if you are obsessed with the idea of carrying by doing damage) so Randuins comes into play quite late. Often the game ends before that. So I'd say build HoG only and only if you are almost sure that the game will last that long AND you will want Randuin's then. Even then you might not want to build Randuin's. So the last thing, once you build Philostone and you don't build HoG, do you want to build a Doran's Ring? Very often yes, you don't really need the mana pots then so you kinda break even on the item slots and imo a free item slot that's not occupied by a Doran's item is usually a bit of a waste. So yeah try it out I really like it. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I like sunfire on top laners because it wins duels hard top and is OK for 800 gold to get the extra damage it won't help much in fights but it's something. On jungle I'd never bother. Finish shurelya+chain vest is cheaper and better. Hog is pretty good usually if you can get it early but If I back with like 2k gold I'll usually just get aegis and go frozen heart. Often you'll have a situation where you won't be finishing aegis that soon anyway and it won't make that huge a difference might as well get that hog and it'll give you some free hp later or even better save you money on randuins. Not going philo stone is dumb unless you're getting blues because of all the money you're spending on hp and mana pots or losing based on missed opportunity and farm thne by the time you have mercs+aegis you could probably have philo+aegis+mercs anyway. I don't like dolans since the AP nerf but I don't think it's a big deal either way if you get it. I'm a frozen heart fan on mumu because I always run out of mana except in really short teamfights where I started full mana. I sometimes get sorc boots on amumu too and I don't think they're a bad choice because amumus base damage is really quite good and often you won't worry about being CC'd a lot. Tabi is pretty good too in the same situation but you'll be playing more agressively or they have 3 physical damage dealers on the team. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
Hog is standard in the meta but more debatable, because it delays aegis by so much. This is an item that's perfectly fine to skip - but not with a dring. Get parts for haunting guise or aegis instead if you are concerned about items in the 800-850g range and want team fight items faster. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Fast haunting guise is kinda dumb because of how low amumus damage is when his Q has like a billion second cd and you're not that tanky. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On November 03 2012 00:03 Slayer91 wrote: Nobodies going dring over philo, the build suggested was philo+dring over philo+hog before you buy aegis. Fast haunting guise is kinda dumb because of how low amumus damage is when his Q has like a billion second cd and you're not that tanky. Speak for yourself. The entire earlier part of this page was some guy saying double dring over gp5, for better teamfight presence. Haunting guise is no less dumb that double doran - they're both dead end items that provide hp and damage. If you don't want hog then, like my post said, buy something useful (like kindlegem or parts for aegis) instead of dring. You should be maxing Q early anyway (with only 1-2 points in E). CDR is not bad on amumu but certainly not the most important stat for him. Haunting guise is perfectly fine for pub stomp builds where you don't have to be too tanky, but competitive builds have always been gp5->aegis/shurelia/chainvest item. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
not making e really slows down your farming though right? Q is so fucking mana intensive for a single target spell and the main reason you run out of mana in general. I'd prefer to just farm like a boss to level 13 and wreck kids. Double dolans isn't good anymore if it ever was because of the ap nerfs. Teamfight presence is highly theoretical in the early game because at best there's a 5v5 dragon fight and more typically there's random skirmishes that break out around the map from jungler and laner interaction usually mid+jungles going to bot or top. Philo will keep you probably healthier than the dorans and the money saved on hp pots and the gp10 for later makes it a much more versatile option. You generally shouldn't be looking for fights early as amumu anyway you want to either gank OR maybe fight if your ult is up. Hopefully the threat of an early ult stops them grouping too early and you can farm up to reduce cds (remember E reduces A LOT too when you level it if you're getting hit the -0.5 second cd is more significant if you already have CDR items and higher levels in it) | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
EDIT: I'm not saying max Q is gospel - just saying that, with the meta favoring gank-oriented junglers and mid-game fights, many people have been maxing Q. Amumu still clears pretty quickly even without max E; just have to be a little more conservative with mana usage. And the damage of a ranked up Q -> auto E R is DEVASTATING, and you'll have Q up again soon. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
also fuck the meta always farm never not farm E for real men On November 02 2012 10:17 Simberto wrote: Well, compare this to a different build. 2 dorans + sorc boots cost you 1700g. With a 2x gp10 build, for 1625 g, you would have a philo and a HoG which give you a total combat stats of 200 health. Obviously, dorans are superior here with 160 health, 30 ap and 20 spellpen +boots2 at this point. This means that if you expect non-onesided fights to happen, for a large period of the game the dorans start is strictly superior to the gp10s. 2 dorans give a similar amount of combat stats as both gp10s combined for 675g less. I personally don't really miss the health regen from philo and don't think i really drop low in the jungle. I will watch this a bit more in the future. If the health regen really has a neglectable effect, it will take your gp10s a lot of time to generate 675g. Starting with 2 dorans does not force you to suddenly go crazy ap mummy, you can still follow your normal build path easily. The main think this boils down to for me is that neither Shurelyas nor Randuins are that good on amumu in my opinion, which makes getting the gp10 items much less attractive then on other similar junglers like skarner. First off "combat stats" isn't a relevant stat since early game you can't choose when fight happen meaning you cant go to base and come to a fight with full health and mana. Regen is an absurdly efficient stat for early game because of the farming you are doing during the early game constantly. Then we have the fact that you completely disregard the ticking gold you get. If you're getting philo at 6 minutes by 16 minutes you already have +300 gold. Now suddenly you have nearly philo+ruby over 2 dorans rings. Also instead of 2 dorans + sorcs we're talking philo+most of an aegis (depending on how many hp pots you have to buy to make up for philo and how much your gp/10 ticked) Comparing HoG to any other item in terms of pure stats is ridiculous since you intend to buy it to tick up for 15-20 minutes so you can be totally fucking bitching with shurelyas+randuins when your shadow counterpart amumu is sitting around with 2 dorans abyssal and sorcs and he's lucky if his extra 30 ap got any kills you wouldn't have in the early game. The spell pen amumu does a bit more damage from Q+R but then he doesn't have nearly the threat of the shurelya/randuin amumu with short CD Q and a lot of health and armour to keep AD carries under check. | ||
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