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On November 03 2012 17:47 DURRHURRDERP wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 05:03 Liquid`NonY wrote:On November 03 2012 02:55 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
As someone who plays with Azingy on a pretty regular basis, I wouldn't recommend his build to starting Amumu players. He plays an extremely aggressive Amumu (and does it really early on), mixing up his jungle and gank paths depending on the situation.
If you're starting out on Amumu, definitely run the standard 2 gp10 build as it gives you the greatest versatility (even if you're not doing too great) come late game. This seems like the opposite of the proper conclusion. Ganking well with Amumu seems more difficult than team fighting and team fighting is going to happen anyway. So playing games without early aggression is just missing out on practicing early aggression. I can see how your suggestion would yield a better initial win rate but I don't see how it's a better way to start learning the champion. And since anyone who doesn't really desperately need to win wouldn't play a new champion in the first place, everyone is better off learning Amumu by playing an aggressive style. I mean it's not like he's the type of champion that has weird combos and mechanics to get comfortable with. Once someone gets pretty good at ganking with a build geared toward aggression, then they can do the much more difficult thing of going back and picking up a philo stone and accomplishing the same things as when they go back and pick up two rings. The problem is, Amumu isn't the greatest early game ganker. You're not gaining anything by playing Amumu aggressively early on that you wouldn't get from actual early game ganking junglers (you might as well play Lee Sin). Azingy plays a very weird + specific style and requires a lot of coordination from his team (definitely a lot for solo queue, even at high elo) and that is the main success of his playstyle. If you try running his style of play without the right coordination from your team it won't work; learning a safe/standard way of playing amumu (double gp10s) is a lot better for solo queue at lower elos.
If you're bot team and you get a leash on blue go EQ and camp top for a bit, it's pretty much exactly the same as what Lee Sin does from top side with red except you have a stun instead of a slow.
Amumu's early ganks aren't the very best in the game, but his level 2 gank can totally screw over top lane and landing a bandage from a bush is a great way to just win a lane for your teammate.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On November 03 2012 23:57 Simberto wrote:
You should also mention oracles, when to get it and when not. And Mobos. They are quite fun if you can afford to not get the tankiness from other boots. In Soloqueue they are very often superior to other boots, and i have seen them used in competative play, too. Mobo amumu ganks are terror, and you get a really good initiate with them, too.
Also, if you start red, you pretty much need a smiteless leash there, because if you go something like wraiths-red-blue that is about as long as your manapool lasts, not having smite up for blue would probably force you back due to hp loss if you do blue, and due to no mana if you do a longer route that waits for smite to come up again for blue.
Oh yeah forgot Oracles lol. I don't like them on Amumu at all but I'll mention where they are theoretically viable. You're right about smiteless leash on red, I'll add that. I don't like mobo boots but I guess I'll mention them. From what I've seen (which is very limited) people don't get them much on Amumu though?
Level2 ganks with blue buff amumu are ridiculously gimmicky. meh.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 04 2012 00:17 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
If you're bot team and you get a leash on blue go EQ and camp top for a bit, it's pretty much exactly the same as what Lee Sin does from top side with red except you have a stun instead of a slow.
Amumu's early ganks aren't the very best in the game, but his level 2 gank can totally screw over top lane and landing a bandage from a bush is a great way to just win a lane for your teammate.
I don't like that comparison because having EQ instead of EW at level 2 makes hitting 3 much harder off jungling so if that gank fails, you damage your tempo much harder than Lee does (who would have EQ at level 2 regardless of whether or not he's ganking). It's much more all-in for Amumu to EQ gank at level 2.
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On November 04 2012 00:17 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 17:47 DURRHURRDERP wrote:On November 03 2012 05:03 Liquid`NonY wrote:On November 03 2012 02:55 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
As someone who plays with Azingy on a pretty regular basis, I wouldn't recommend his build to starting Amumu players. He plays an extremely aggressive Amumu (and does it really early on), mixing up his jungle and gank paths depending on the situation.
If you're starting out on Amumu, definitely run the standard 2 gp10 build as it gives you the greatest versatility (even if you're not doing too great) come late game. This seems like the opposite of the proper conclusion. Ganking well with Amumu seems more difficult than team fighting and team fighting is going to happen anyway. So playing games without early aggression is just missing out on practicing early aggression. I can see how your suggestion would yield a better initial win rate but I don't see how it's a better way to start learning the champion. And since anyone who doesn't really desperately need to win wouldn't play a new champion in the first place, everyone is better off learning Amumu by playing an aggressive style. I mean it's not like he's the type of champion that has weird combos and mechanics to get comfortable with. Once someone gets pretty good at ganking with a build geared toward aggression, then they can do the much more difficult thing of going back and picking up a philo stone and accomplishing the same things as when they go back and pick up two rings. The problem is, Amumu isn't the greatest early game ganker. You're not gaining anything by playing Amumu aggressively early on that you wouldn't get from actual early game ganking junglers (you might as well play Lee Sin). Azingy plays a very weird + specific style and requires a lot of coordination from his team (definitely a lot for solo queue, even at high elo) and that is the main success of his playstyle. If you try running his style of play without the right coordination from your team it won't work; learning a safe/standard way of playing amumu (double gp10s) is a lot better for solo queue at lower elos. If you're bot team and you get a leash on blue go EQ and camp top for a bit, it's pretty much exactly the same as what Lee Sin does from top side with red except you have a stun instead of a slow. Amumu's early ganks aren't the very best in the game, but his level 2 gank can totally screw over top lane and landing a bandage from a bush is a great way to just win a lane for your teammate.
Except you risk not landing a kill pushing the lane and getting screwed by a levl 3/4 double buff gank and you actually did a bad thing coming top as well as slowing down your farm a lot
level 3 double buff ganks from purple side on top lane are much safer and high first blood percentage and usually the bot side goes red blue to counter that
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You risk that exact same thing with any gank/jungler, so just don't ever gank?
And you guys are severely overestimating how much damage level 1 w does to jungle creeps. You can level just fine by hitting wolf/wraith with just e as you come back, and if you miss your bandage, just walk out and wait for the cd to come back up without taking any xp/creeps. Same as if you missed Lee Q. In fact, Lee Q and Amumu Q travel at exactly the same speed.
Farming in the jungle is totally overrated in the current meta. Snowballing top lane in particular is the jungler's biggest priority.
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Doesn't work like that for other lanes and other times though. You can level 2 gank once and after that their jungler is level 3 or 4 with double buffs and you'll have to go all the way down to red and farm level 4 yourself and then go back and go all the way up to top, while their jungler can camp top all he likes in the meantime. Also top lane is guaranteed to have no wards and as such pushing in that situation I'd say is normally detrimental and unless you get FB or very damn near it's not worth it.
Even if your top laner knows their jungler will come he has to sit back and not cs with his "advantage" which he loses as soon as their laner back and buys a ward.
Ganks at level 5 and after give top laners chance to buy a ward or two meaning pushing the lane won't automatically be bad since you know when the jungler is comin which allows you to back off or set up a countergank/
Level 1 w does lots of damage to both blue and red allowing smiteless blue and red without taking too much damage. Pretty good.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
For the reasons that Teutonica oh-so-eloquently stated, I won't be including lvl2 bluebuff (or even lvl2 redbuff) gank into the guide. If you want to camp toplane as blue side, starting redbuff is a viable alternative. Or, if one disagrees with you that snowballing toplane is your main priority (like I do) you can focus on middle and bottom lane instead, which is easier from blue side.
If no one has anything else to say I'll write the guide first time tommorow morning.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 04 2012 08:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
And you guys are severely overestimating how much damage level 1 w does to jungle creeps.
Level 1 W actually lets your AoE damage clear Wolves/Wraiths between Tantrum CDs, rather than having to wait for Tantrum to actually cool down. That saves you 4-5 seconds even if the difference is only 1 Tantrum. And that doesn't include how much faster W level 2 is on a buff.
On November 04 2012 08:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Farming in the jungle is totally overrated in the current meta. Snowballing top lane in particular is the jungler's biggest priority.
I don't know how you drew this conclusion when for the most part in recent tournaments the campiest junglers have been the least successful ones, and the most successful ones have been the one that could successfully manage their farm with their ganking.
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Here's how I think about it:
The guides here are not meant for tournament players, who generally play tournaments with teams they practice with.
Level 2 gank is a tactic, not an absolute must do part of your jungle route.
If your level 2 gank is successful, you win top lane until their jungler gets a successful gank.
Saying "no you can't do that because it's bad" is just limiting your personal options. Keep an open mind.
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Like really your role as a jungler isn't to farm stuff, it's to support your lanes, and if you can force top lane to blow flash or get a kill at level 1 for them isn't it worth it to attempt it once in a while? I'm not saying it's always optimal but there's an obvious risk/reward calculation that's got a very high payoff for what, being 30 seconds behind on an arbitrary metric like clear speed?
[edit] Also maybe another big difference is that I run flat AP/mpen/armor/scaling AP so my level 2 ganks are actually a huge terror. [/edit]
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On November 04 2012 21:44 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Like really your role as a jungler isn't to farm stuff, it's to support your lanes, and if you can force top lane to blow flash or get a kill at level 1 for them isn't it worth it to attempt it once in a while? I'm not saying it's always optimal but there's an obvious risk/reward calculation that's got a very high payoff for what, being 30 seconds behind on an arbitrary metric like clear speed?
[edit] Also maybe another big difference is that I run flat AP/mpen/armor/scaling AP so my level 2 ganks are actually a huge terror. [/edit]
Your totaly right,and you can lessen the risk a bunch by doing what snooppeh was doing at mlg(3 gp10 items) I've been playing with it, its super nice you can roam a whole bunch more and your going to hit the mid-late game strong even if you got no good ganks off.
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The more you gank the better you get at ganking. Killing jungle camps doesn't really take practice, eh? Might as well gank everything and learn something.
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On November 04 2012 21:41 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Here's how I think about it:
The guides here are not meant for tournament players, who generally play tournaments with teams they practice with.
Level 2 gank is a tactic, not an absolute must do part of your jungle route.
If your level 2 gank is successful, you win top lane until their jungler gets a successful gank.
Saying "no you can't do that because it's bad" is just limiting your personal options. Keep an open mind.
The issue is it doesnt matter what level of player you are level 2 gank will have a very low kill rate, and a very high chance of improving their junglers sucess rate in the easiest, best and most common gank in all of LoL right now which is the double buff top lane gank from purple side. Whatever advantage you get there is often nullfied and reversed and the top lane might snowball the other way and suddenly you have to waste even more time to help top lane.
The level of play doesnt matter hughely, a good play is a good play, some plays are situational but the level 2 gank is situational at best and doesn't really need to be in the arsenal of any jungle amumu player.
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I'm semi-chuckling that, TL, where common sense is fairly high and the idea that nothing is set in stone are debating this that hard. Choosing your items and skill order on Amumu can be done on the fly. More damage vs gp5 and better ganks vs better farming. If it's purely a debate on what should be in the guide; I think the standard question of - why not both? - should apply. Beyond that, you should be smart enough to figure out what would benefit your team more.
For the very basics there can be a clear, definitive, and best way to do things. Once we're talking about above average understanding and ability then following a guide perfectly is only detrimental. Mummy is my best jungler and I mix it up between the more farm/tanky builds and the heavier damage/ganking routes. Do what your team needs... when did that change so much? It shouldn't be too hard to figure out what your team would benefit from more based upon your team comp and your opponents.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On November 05 2012 01:37 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
I'm semi-chuckling that, TL, where common sense is fairly high and the idea that nothing is set in stone are debating this that hard. Choosing your items and skill order on Amumu can be done on the fly. More damage vs gp5 and better ganks vs better farming. If it's purely a debate on what should be in the guide; I think the standard question of - why not both? - should apply. Beyond that, you should be smart enough to figure out what would benefit your team more.
For the very basics there can be a clear, definitive, and best way to do things. Once we're talking about above average understanding and ability then following a guide perfectly is only detrimental. Mummy is my best jungler and I mix it up between the more farm/tanky builds and the heavier damage/ganking routes. Do what your team needs... when did that change so much? It shouldn't be too hard to figure out what your team would benefit from more based upon your team comp and your opponents.
I have no idea who you are talking to.
What were discussing now if it is ever a good idea to lvl2 gank with blue buff.
Before we discussed when is it a good idea to build Drings and when if ever to build HoG, when to build FoN instead of Banshees. And no, it is absolutely not easy/simple to decide on the fly and no, it IS really hard to figure out what to do. That's what guides are for.
If it is that easy for you to decide what to do and what to build, please be so kind and contribute to the discussions.
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True. Deciding on the fly comes from lots and lots of games so you have a framework as to what would be best in this situation. The job of a guide is to allow you to skip some of those games by getting condensed knowledge from players who have already spent that time. Thus, if you say "you can build philo or 2 dorans", you should explain when you would want to build philo, and when you would want to build 2 dorans.
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On November 05 2012 01:43 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 01:37 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
I'm semi-chuckling that, TL, where common sense is fairly high and the idea that nothing is set in stone are debating this that hard. Choosing your items and skill order on Amumu can be done on the fly. More damage vs gp5 and better ganks vs better farming. If it's purely a debate on what should be in the guide; I think the standard question of - why not both? - should apply. Beyond that, you should be smart enough to figure out what would benefit your team more.
For the very basics there can be a clear, definitive, and best way to do things. Once we're talking about above average understanding and ability then following a guide perfectly is only detrimental. Mummy is my best jungler and I mix it up between the more farm/tanky builds and the heavier damage/ganking routes. Do what your team needs... when did that change so much? It shouldn't be too hard to figure out what your team would benefit from more based upon your team comp and your opponents. I have no idea who you are talking to. What were discussing now if it is ever a good idea to lvl2 gank with blue buff. Before we discussed when is it a good idea to build Drings and when if ever to build HoG, when to build FoN instead of Banshees. And no, it is absolutely not easy/simple to decide on the fly and no, it IS really hard to figure out what to do. That's what guides are for.
I'l elaborate - given the level of discourse this conversation has had and the general discourse on teamliquid, making a decision when I think it's fairly apparent there isn't a "correct" one seems silly to me. Everybody acknowledges the advantages/disadvantages to both sides of the build, and gank, and skill order. Put both in the guide, which you've already decided to do on one or two of the issues. No good guide should just say "level 2 gank now." Instead, if you have a laner who make it a guaranteed kill (major slow/root/stun) to start or follow up to your gank then that increases the likelihood that ganking is the proper path. Are your opponents more aggressive and pushing the lane early with some aoe champ like renekton or whatnot? Well, odds are he'll be more susceptible to a gank. If the answer was no, then stick to clearing as quickly as possible.
This is why higher-level guides and thinking are hard to put into a guide properly and why this debate is being had. It can be hard to make decisions on the fly, but it what has to be done to be successful. Thinking you can follow a specific path consistently (whether it's the builds or route) simply wont net you the success that adaptation will. Hell, somebody already made the point earlier (you or 5hit I think) about guides not being for top players, but rather more likely beginners. If you're fine with that, then you keep it simple and perhaps add a second section pointing out "advanced" ideas, but keeping them in the main body of the guide will only lead to confusion. You don't have to decide if something is the better play 60% of the time compared to its 40% counterpart, but whether it will be more helpful or detrimental to the beginners the guide is targeting by even suggesting it. That debate has less to do what what is right/proper/ideal for amumu, and more with what exactly the guide is for and who you expect will read it.
late edit: Just to add something else - I'm glad there is discussion about things when there is disagreement. It's why I still read this section. I just think when you're trying to craft a guide, you just need to decide what you're going for and not stray because I find it unlikely you'd ever be 100% satisfied with a finished product.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Not everyone acknowledges advantages and disadvatages of certain decisions, so that's why we are having discussion in the first place and that's why a guide is something useful (if everyone was aware of everything, then surely guides would be unnecessary). What I argue (and I believe Slayer argues something to the similiar effect) that the level 2 gank is never a good idea to do, simply because of the massive amount of disadvantages it has. Firstly, if you don't achieve much, you lose about 40 seconds of blue buff, farm and presence around middle lane. Secondly, if it does mildly succeed (wasted flash+a lot of damage done) the lane is guaranteed to push and is therefore countered by the BY FAR most common purple jungle path which is wolves-blue-red and it is also countered by Wraiths-Red-Top from purple side, because of the extreme weakness of Amumu in early levels. Thirdly, it is also mildly countered by Wraiths-Red-Blue from purple side, because they are then able to take away your red buff or create an advantageous fight for them (4v3). And fourthly, it has a very small chance to succeed, no matter the top lane matchup.
Therefore I consider it never a good idea to do and will not include it in the guide. (edit: not only do I and Slayer consider it generally a very bad idea, I am pretty sure this gank is completely unheard of in tournament play)
There is a "correct" decision to be made in many many situations, especially when it comes to item builds. So we try to figure out what decisions in what circumstances are through, as you probably guessed, discussion. Because not everyone is aware of all the advantages and disadvantages of certain decisions. As I said.
As for this specific guide, I'd like to outline and explain the most successful and standard way to play Amumu, drawing most of the inspiration from tournament games but also high level ladder games, alongside some fringe builds that some very high level players succeeded with (Azingy being the prime example). What I do not wish to include is fringe builds and way to play Amumu that some mid and low level players "succeeded" with (difficult to measure the extent of success with no high ELO in either ranked5s, soloQ or tournaments accomplished).
Edit: but you did mention you have large amount of understanding about relations between teamcompositions and itembuilds, skill order and playstyle, so please do tell me what would you change in the rough draft of the guide I made.
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If you know someone doesnt have flash, it's possible to gank lv2, but I think 90% of junglers who know what they're doing would never take that risk. The lv3 double buff gank pushes lane, so generally after a failed gank you want to stay near top a bit to give your top vision or wait for the other jungler to come. The other jungler will either not come, which means he's either bad or he thinks it might be a trap, or do a few more camps and come at lv4 with double buffs. The latter you can deal with if the enemy top is chunked enough, the former means your top should win the lane because of the immense pressure early and no counterpressure. I think scip/slayers are generally on the more conservative side for jungling, valuing personal growth over pressure.
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Make sure to really hammer the point that bandage toss doesn't have to be used to initiate (probably excluding 5v5 unless you're catching people though). The minute shur's is acquired your ganks can become really strong by running straight from bush/behind/lane and you can save your toss until very, very late. The longer you wait also increases the likelihood that they panic and use flash or any escape ability while you still have toss up.
You mention the casting animation on E, and really make sure to hammer that point as well. I think it's one of the major flaws in amumus I see during teamfights. They try to chase and spam their E, but quickly find themselves out of range and now largely useless.
I personally prefer going Q over E leveling route whenever I think it's possible(similar to Azingy) but as it was also discussed, it is a much more advanced idea. If you fail gank or dont anticipate later counterganks it is hugely detrimental and unless you intend to really spend the time necessary to flesh out its pros/cons I honestly wouldn't include it in the guide because it certainly can cause more harm than good. Since you're the one spending the time, just decide if you want to include those types of ideas or just include the basics with some tips. This question then leads into the items. I think if you're going to advocate aggression (multiple drings, abyssal/sunfire etc) at all, do so in a completely separate area of the guide after the more standard farming routes/items. Offering up 2 largely contrary opinions/builds next to each other would do nothing but seem contradictory to the reader. Properly fleshing out when 1 build might be more viable than another(especially since you already have a strong preference in the matter) is next to impossible unless you intend to write a 6000 word essay about team comps (friendly and opposing).
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EPT
