EPTI think my favorite match-up to play is vs Cassiopeia, it's not easy but it's very rewarding and it all comes down to your skill at dodging her Qs vs her skill at aiming them + staying out of your range. Quite fun.
[Champion] Ryze - Page 16
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
I think my favorite match-up to play is vs Cassiopeia, it's not easy but it's very rewarding and it all comes down to your skill at dodging her Qs vs her skill at aiming them + staying out of your range. Quite fun. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 20 2011 09:29 sylverfyre wrote: ROA is an OKAY 4th big item on Ryze, but so is WotA. IMO, however, wota is better because at the point where you already have mega good resists, revolver way outshines yet another catalyst (Though HP isn't exactly a bad stat when you're looking at high armor and MR) RoA is absolutely terrible as a 4th item on Ryze. Buying it 4th means you never get to finish charging it, which means you don't get to take advantage of the time when it's good. Buying RoA and then having the game be over before you finish charging it is an enormous waste. If you buy RoA on Ryze, you're basically going to treat it like Warmog's or a gp10 item--eventually the insane cost-effectiveness of it wins out when it's fully charged, but it's not all that amazing for you the moment you buy it. You have to be able to stall out the time it takes for it to charge without giving up too much ground. And as such, you have to buy it early enough for that to be a possibility. If you're getting RoA, it basically has to be immediately after Cata+Tear, so that you can conceivably have it charged by 20-25 minutes. And you can only really afford to do that in the case where you're ahead enough by the time you buy it that you can let it charge without having to give up objectives along the way. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On December 20 2011 11:03 Vaporized wrote: i play many many games with ryze. i built roa for a long time and recently started getting wota instead. there is no question wota is superior. Yup, same story for me. For a very long time I built Rod, and felt that Ryze was pretty strong. But then I tried WotA, and Ryze is a fucking monster. The spellvamp off of a full spell burst (QWQEQ) is more than the ~700 hp you would have had with a Rod of Ages, and it keeps on coming. WotA makes me feel like I can 1v3 as Ryze and win as long as I'm not stunlocked. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On December 20 2011 11:23 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Why would you build rod over banshees at any point in the game on ryze? Rod gives more health and mana, and keeps the passive effect of Catalyst. If you had 7 item slots then Rod of Ages would be the clear choice as 7th item, it's just that there's 6 more items that are even better. Sometimes you might be able to switch your Void Staff for a Rod, but getting a Rod as a last item isn't very good. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 20 2011 11:23 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Why would you build rod over banshees at any point in the game on ryze? Fully-charged RoA is actually fine for Ryze, both on gold- and slot-efficiency. It's getting there that's the issue. It's basically a super-expensive equivalent to a gold/10 item for Ryze. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On December 20 2011 12:05 Two_DoWn wrote: or you could just get banshees, glacial, a tear, then just build warmogs thornmail and never die. But wasting slots on shitty items like ROA works too. Eh, what? Rod of Ages gives more mana than any other item in the game except a charged Tear, which you can only have one of. It gives more health than anything other than Warmog's (half as much) and a fully charged Leviathan (lol). The AP is respectable although kind of irrelevant. I can't think of any situation where I would pick Warmog's over Rod of Ages. Thornmail is a joke on Ryze. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On December 20 2011 13:19 Alzadar wrote: Eh, what? Rod of Ages gives more mana than any other item in the game except a charged Tear, which you can only have one of. It gives more health than anything other than Warmog's (half as much) and a fully charged Leviathan (lol). The AP is respectable although kind of irrelevant. I can't think of any situation where I would pick Warmog's over Rod of Ages. Thornmail is a joke on Ryze. Because if you are incapable of dying, then you do infinite damage. Same reason why GP doesnt build an IE. | ||
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
On December 20 2011 13:24 Two_DoWn wrote: Because if you are incapable of dying, then you do infinite damage. Same reason why GP doesnt build an IE. I always get IE and atmogs on GP D: I'm so noob  | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On December 20 2011 13:24 Two_DoWn wrote: Because if you are incapable of dying, then you do infinite damage. Same reason why GP doesnt build an IE. I don't see how an extra 600 hp makes you incapable of dying, especially when you give up 700 mana (which gives you more spellvamped hp) to get it. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
And 600 health becomes an effective 1k+ with resists. The damage you get from the ROA? It only goes down. You really dont need more than Glacial/tear/banshees. And all of the items that you get scale naturally with health. Its stupid to throw away your build in the vain attempt to do a little bit more damage. RYZE IS NOT A BURST CASTER. You do not play ryze by maximizing his damage in an offensive sense. You maximize his damage the same way you would a bruiser- maximize your ability to survive. You know how you win games of lol? Be the last one alive. If you stack 4k HP on top of the obscene resists you build up naturally you have to be a moron to die in a fight. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On December 20 2011 11:08 TheYango wrote: RoA is absolutely terrible as a 4th item on Ryze. Buying it 4th means you never get to finish charging it, which means you don't get to take advantage of the time when it's good. Buying RoA and then having the game be over before you finish charging it is an enormous waste. Going to disagree... going from the catalyst to Rod is only a big deal if you need the AP component- Ryze doesn't really benefit from that nearly as much as other casters. Banshee's Veil lets you start being a major pain in the arse to enemy casters and initiate team fights with little fear. Big freaking deal. Frozen Heart cuts your cooldowns by a ton, makes you super tanky, and makes the entire enemy team attack slower. Considering how many more effective hitpoints you get from the Banshee's Veil/Frozen Heart, I would never, ever buy RoA first on Ryze. There's also the awkward matter of having a blasting wand that doesn't do a whole lot of anything before you convert to a RoA. Do that early game, it is a huge investment. Late game? Eh... not so big a deal. As far as the Warmogs on Ryze discussion goes, games are going to be long over before you can charge it. I get around 3.1k HP as Ryze getting RoA as a 4th or 5th item if the RoA gets fully charged, which feels like an utter crap ton. Warmogs makes that around 3.7k, but you lose 150ish damage off a round of spells (assuming no repeat bounces on your E). Thornmail is a terrible choice except in a very few circumstances, I can't remember the last time I had severe issues with durability late game. You might say 150 damage is not a big deal, but having enough burst to save your teammates is a much bigger deal than saving your own hide (most of the time). | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 20 2011 19:30 zer0das wrote: Going to disagree... going from the catalyst to Rod is only a big deal if you need the AP component- Ryze doesn't really benefit from that nearly as much as other casters. Banshee's Veil lets you start being a major pain in the arse to enemy casters and initiate team fights with little fear. Big freaking deal. Frozen Heart cuts your cooldowns by a ton, makes you super tanky, and makes the entire enemy team attack slower. Considering how many more effective hitpoints you get from the Banshee's Veil/Frozen Heart, I would never, ever buy RoA first on Ryze. There's also the awkward matter of having a blasting wand that doesn't do a whole lot of anything before you convert to a RoA. Do that early game, it is a huge investment. Late game? Eh... not so big a deal. By that same logic, you should be buying HoG/Philo as 5th or 6th item because the investment hurts you less. If you are getting Rod, you have to get it early, because you need to reliably see a return on your investment. 4th item Rod is pointless. Rod only beats out other items if you can have it fully charged for a long time. If you build Rod at 40 minutes, and the game is over before 50 minutes, then what the hell was the point of buying Rod over an item that's immediately good? Not to mention that, as with other stack/gp10 items, you want to stall out the time when they suck, and let them charge. That's much easier to do at 15-25 minutes. You can't stall fights at the 40 minute mark--the enemy will just take Baron. And yes I am aware that Rod hurts you a lot immediately early-game, which is why I only recommend it as an all-in-ish buy if you're way ahead. You're going to suck balls for most of those 10 minutes where Rod is charging. It's worth it if you get to play with fully charged Rod for 20+ minutes, because of how much shit it gives you. But there is zero point in buying 4th item Rod, because 90% of the time, you won't even get to see it finish charging, which means you get zero return on your investment. EDIT: I'm very amused by the fact that you think a game will be over before you get to finish charging Warmog's, when it really doesn't charge any slower than RoA. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2011 00:16 Alzadar wrote: The upgrade from Blasting Wand + Catalyst costs 850. For that, you get 160hp, 200 mana and 20 ability power, plus 18hp, 20 mana and 2 AP every minute for 10 minutes. At 0 stacks the gold value is 420+400+435=1255. Buying a Rod of Ages is not like buying GP/5 at all... On a normal AP it isn't. It is on Ryze when you consider that the AP is worth significantly less than its gold value on him. You need to convert the value of the AP to equivalent mana value, because otherwise you're over-valuing the AP. Obviously Rod looks good when you pretend Ryze is making just as much use out of it as any other AP caster, but he isn't. You also can't look at the upgrade from Blasting Wand + Catalyst, because Ryze would never buy Blasting Wand if he weren't getting Rod. You have to treat Wand+Rod upgrade as a single buy in that regard. You get 160 hp + 200 mana + 60 AP for 1710. That 60 AP is equivalent to about another 200 mana for Ryze in terms of damage output, so basically your immediate gain is equivalent to 160 HP + 400 mana, which is worth ~1220 gold. 500 gold behind the curve, but fully stacked RoA pulls significantly ahead. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On December 21 2011 00:22 TheYango wrote: On a normal AP it isn't. It is on Ryze when you consider that the AP is worth significantly less than its gold value on him. You need to convert the value of the AP to equivalent mana value, because otherwise you're over-valuing the AP. Obviously Rod looks good when you pretend Ryze is making just as much use out of it as any other AP caster, but he isn't. You also can't look at the upgrade from Blasting Wand + Catalyst, because Ryze would never buy Blasting Wand if he weren't getting Rod. You have to treat Wand+Rod upgrade as a single buy in that regard. You get 160 hp + 200 mana + 60 AP for 1710. That 60 AP is equivalent to about another 200 mana for Ryze in terms of damage output, so basically your immediate gain is equivalent to 160 HP + 400 mana, which is worth ~1220 gold. 500 gold behind the curve, but fully stacked RoA pulls significantly ahead. You'd be buying a Blasting Wand anyway at that point in the game because you need it for either an Archangel's Staff, a Void Staff or a Rod of Ages. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2011 00:33 Alzadar wrote: You'd be buying a Blasting Wand anyway at that point in the game because you need it for either an Archangel's Staff, a Void Staff or a Rod of Ages. And you'd still need to buy another one to finish those items anyway. Buying Rod doesn't replace Void Staff. If you need Void Staff, you need Void Staff. And you still didn't address my point on how you have to convert AP to equivalent mana value when calculating cost-effectiveness for Ryze. You're treating Rod like Ryze gets full value out of the AP, which makes it look way better than it is. Rod's uncharged stats absolutely do not compare to other item options on Ryze. I don't see how this is even a question. | ||
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