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On October 04 2011 10:34 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 04:45 Abenson wrote:
AFK farm all game.
If enemy team is stupid, you win.
If enemy team is smart, you lose, but you can BM everyone with your positive score and farm This basically sums up what happens with Master Yi at higher levels of play. If you have a really good team and set everything up perfectly in fights for Yi to come in and clean up when enemy CC is down after forcing perfect initiation and maximizing your damage output to get your opponents low enough you can sort of pull it off... Or you could just pick a champion that's actually useful and doesn't have a dud ability that goes against the rest of his skill-set. There are actually a few ways to make meditate work if they really want to put it on Yi, I posted a couple on the League of Legends forums a while back and saw an idea or two from Shurelia as well. Ultimately, it seems everything was ditched because despite Yi being absolute rubbish at higher levels of play, he does fine against terrible players, and they don't want them to get owned harder. Whatever, it's Riot's approach to balancing and it's worked for them, just sucks for poor Yi.
I think if you pick him into a fitting composition he might work well. Like another splitpusher top (singed comes to mind) a strong burst ap mid (annie/brand/anivia/gragas/sion) and then a bruiser+babysitter (some combo that provides enough CC such as janna+sth or taric+sth). So you splitpush with your two bruisers and clean up with your burst ap+yi.
A possibility might be to pick an ap carry/mage with him that has to be stunned like katarina/akali/malzahar/galio.
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No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
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On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
Except if you find him fun to play! :D
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There's a buttload of reasons why Yi can be better than either of those champions. Hell you can justify slotting Yi over Nocturne in certain comps. Don't underestimate the jungle Yi.
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On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
jungle tryn is shit compared to jungle yi imo
lane tryn is of course better than lane yi though
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On October 05 2011 01:31 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere. jungle tryn is shit compared to jungle yi imo lane tryn is of course better than lane yi though
Solo mid AP lane Yi is better than you think.
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On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
xin and trynd arent as fast and do not deal as much damage as yi.
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On October 04 2011 22:39 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere. Except if you find him fun to play! :D
He is insanely fun to play especially when you start snowballing after successful ganks. Zipping around with his ult is just so much fun, and alpha striking a clump of low hp champs for double/triple kills with one ability ^_^b
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On October 05 2011 05:08 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere. xin and trynd arent as fast and do not deal as much damage as yi.
Yi's speed is kind of set back by Meditate which requires him to stand still, there is really no in-combat situation where it's useful and outside of combat the healing isn't that great unless you're running him AP. So basically, that leaves him with three effective skills. Trynd and Xin have much more survivability and Yi doesn't actually deal more damage in most scenarios, the overall value of his complete ultimate duration is negligible in most situations, unless he's doing clean-up.
On October 05 2011 03:45 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 01:31 freelander wrote:On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere. jungle tryn is shit compared to jungle yi imo lane tryn is of course better than lane yi though Solo mid AP lane Yi is better than you think.
Yeah, sure... unfortunately there are dozens of better overall choices for solo mid than AP Yi.
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9871 Posts
On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter.
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I don't really see why having a sortof useless ability is such a big deal. Cait, for example, will almost completely stop using her Q after a certain point in the game.
As for the yi vs trynd discussion, saintvicious once said in his stream that he thinks yi is just utterly better than trynd (trynd is garbage, he said) if only for the sole reason that trynd gets raped by exhaust and yi doesn't.
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On October 05 2011 08:27 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere. I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter.
This isn't true, at higher levels of play it becomes apparent that Yi is sub-par, Xin is better for quite obvious reasons, he has a built in slow and a knock-up in addition to a much faster gap closer and better burst potential, in addition to his cooldown reducing ability allowing for multiple chains of his combo. Yi's main advantage in comparison is his ability to farm with Alpha Strike which is irrelevant if you're putting him in the jungle anyways, clearing it slightly faster doesn't really mean all that much for him and good players can farm fairly well with both champions.
It's not just relevant at competitive play though that's where it's painfully apparent, playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao. Yi lacks any kind of CC and has poor survivability mixed in with a skill that is counter-productive to his entire purpose.
The main issue with Yi is meditate and while it is resolvable, Riot seems to be fine with Yi's rubbish design because he's still usable at low level play where him being entirely eclipsed by other champions doesn't matter too much.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 05 2011 08:55 Mordiford wrote:
This isn't true, at higher levels of play it becomes apparent that Yi is sub-par, Xin is better for quite obvious reasons, he has a built in slow and a knock-up in addition to a much faster gap closer and better burst potential, in addition to his cooldown reducing ability allowing for multiple chains of his combo. Yi's main advantage in comparison is his ability to farm with Alpha Strike which is irrelevant if you're putting him in the jungle anyways, clearing it slightly faster doesn't really mean all that much for him and good players can farm fairly well with both champions.
What?
Alpha Strike is one of the most insane jungling skills in the game. It makes Yi almost impossible to counterjungle effectively because of his absurdly unpredictable camp timings, gives him the means to steal small camps extremely effectively, and presents the threat of Alpha->Smite steals on buffs, Dragon, and Baron.
Compare this to Xin who has comparatively poor baseline jungling speed, and very few jungle control tools. He might have a better kit lategame, but Xin is outmatched early game by Yi's flexibility as a jungler, whereas Xin is forced to play a defensive, gank-oriented jungle.
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On October 05 2011 09:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 08:55 Mordiford wrote:
This isn't true, at higher levels of play it becomes apparent that Yi is sub-par, Xin is better for quite obvious reasons, he has a built in slow and a knock-up in addition to a much faster gap closer and better burst potential, in addition to his cooldown reducing ability allowing for multiple chains of his combo. Yi's main advantage in comparison is his ability to farm with Alpha Strike which is irrelevant if you're putting him in the jungle anyways, clearing it slightly faster doesn't really mean all that much for him and good players can farm fairly well with both champions. What? Alpha Strike is one of the most insane jungling skills in the game. It makes Yi almost impossible to counterjungle effectively because of his absurdly unpredictable camp timings, gives him the means to steal small camps extremely effectively, and presents the threat of Alpha->Smite steals on buffs, Dragon, and Baron.
Irrelevant for farming advantage when jungling, in a lane, Alpha Strike allows Yi some additional early game farm, in the jungle any bonus farm he attains is negligible with Alpha Strike. An Alpha-->Smite steal on Dragon or Baron would be just as possible with just a simple effective Smite timing, unless you're hoping for additional damage to proc in which case the other team can take this into consideration as well, it's really no more effective for stealing Dragon or Nashor than any other champion with smite, it comes down to timing regardless.
If you're going to try and steal small camps using Alpha Strike past the really early game, you're taking a massive risk if the opposing team is packing wards or otherwise attentive. It's doable, but it relies on a proc which early on is hit or miss.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 05 2011 09:11 Mordiford wrote:
Irrelevant for farming advantage when jungling, in a lane, Alpha Strike allows Yi some additional early game farm, in the jungle any bonus farm he attains is negligible with Alpha Strike. An Alpha-->Smite steal on Dragon or Baron would be just as possible with just a simple effective Smite timing, unless you're hoping for additional damage to proc in which case the other team can take this into consideration as well, it's really no more effective for stealing Dragon or Nashor than any other champion with smite, it comes down to timing regardless.
1) It's not irrelevant for farm. Being impossible to counterjungle makes your early-game far more stable. Yi is hard for even Nunu to counterjungle effectively--whereas even Amumu can effectively steal camps from Xin Zhao simply based on the speed differential in their jungling.
2) You can time the Alpha and Smite to do damage simultaneously, compared to the enemy jungler who has to react to the Alpha visual. Much more reliable for you. Having an additional smite-like to last-hit buffs/Dragon/Baron has always indisputably been an advantage when contesting those objectives--hence why it contributes to the strength of Nunu and Lee Sin as junglers.
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On October 05 2011 09:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 09:11 Mordiford wrote:
Irrelevant for farming advantage when jungling, in a lane, Alpha Strike allows Yi some additional early game farm, in the jungle any bonus farm he attains is negligible with Alpha Strike. An Alpha-->Smite steal on Dragon or Baron would be just as possible with just a simple effective Smite timing, unless you're hoping for additional damage to proc in which case the other team can take this into consideration as well, it's really no more effective for stealing Dragon or Nashor than any other champion with smite, it comes down to timing regardless. 1) It's not irrelevant for farm. Being impossible to counterjungle makes your early-game far more stable. Yi is hard for even Nunu to counterjungle effectively--whereas even Amumu can effectively steal camps from Xin Zhao simply based on the speed differential in their jungling. 2) You can time the Alpha and Smite to do damage simultaneously, compared to the enemy jungler who has to react to the Alpha visual. Much more reliable for you. Having an additional smite-like to last-hit buffs/Dragon/Baron has always indisputably been an advantage when contesting those objectives--hence why it contributes to the strength of Nunu and Lee Sin as junglers.
1) Has some merit, but his jungling being slightly erratic does not make him impossible to counter-gank. With clairvoyance, which everyone fucking has, it becomes quite easy to keep tabs on Yi provided you're even kind of attentive.
2) Once again, that's reliant on a proc where other champions have equally comparable nukes and if you base your smite timing on the expected proc, you're gambling. If you base your smite timing on the regular nuke, it's not better than any other jungler using their nuke and smiting simultaneously.
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On October 05 2011 09:31 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 09:16 TheYango wrote:On October 05 2011 09:11 Mordiford wrote:
Irrelevant for farming advantage when jungling, in a lane, Alpha Strike allows Yi some additional early game farm, in the jungle any bonus farm he attains is negligible with Alpha Strike. An Alpha-->Smite steal on Dragon or Baron would be just as possible with just a simple effective Smite timing, unless you're hoping for additional damage to proc in which case the other team can take this into consideration as well, it's really no more effective for stealing Dragon or Nashor than any other champion with smite, it comes down to timing regardless. 1) It's not irrelevant for farm. Being impossible to counterjungle makes your early-game far more stable. Yi is hard for even Nunu to counterjungle effectively--whereas even Amumu can effectively steal camps from Xin Zhao simply based on the speed differential in their jungling. 2) You can time the Alpha and Smite to do damage simultaneously, compared to the enemy jungler who has to react to the Alpha visual. Much more reliable for you. Having an additional smite-like to last-hit buffs/Dragon/Baron has always indisputably been an advantage when contesting those objectives--hence why it contributes to the strength of Nunu and Lee Sin as junglers. 1) Has some merit, but his jungling being slightly erratic does not make him impossible to counter-gank. With clairvoyance, which everyone fucking has, it becomes quite easy to keep tabs on Yi provided you're even kind of attentive. 2) Once again, that's reliant on a proc where other champions have equally comparable nukes and if you base your smite timing on the expected proc, you're gambling. If you base your smite timing on the regular nuke, it's not better than any other jungler using their nuke and smiting simultaneously.
1) counterjungling is not something static or simply countered by keeping track of the jungler. With such fast junglers you can clear half the jungle of your opponent if he ganks on the other side of the map and still clear your own stuff until he can react to it. Saying that vision is good to keep track of a jungler doesnt make his jungle speed any weaker. It is actually way riskier and harder to stop a fast counterjungler from stealing than to stop a ganker from killing.
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On October 05 2011 10:11 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 09:31 Mordiford wrote:On October 05 2011 09:16 TheYango wrote:On October 05 2011 09:11 Mordiford wrote:
Irrelevant for farming advantage when jungling, in a lane, Alpha Strike allows Yi some additional early game farm, in the jungle any bonus farm he attains is negligible with Alpha Strike. An Alpha-->Smite steal on Dragon or Baron would be just as possible with just a simple effective Smite timing, unless you're hoping for additional damage to proc in which case the other team can take this into consideration as well, it's really no more effective for stealing Dragon or Nashor than any other champion with smite, it comes down to timing regardless. 1) It's not irrelevant for farm. Being impossible to counterjungle makes your early-game far more stable. Yi is hard for even Nunu to counterjungle effectively--whereas even Amumu can effectively steal camps from Xin Zhao simply based on the speed differential in their jungling. 2) You can time the Alpha and Smite to do damage simultaneously, compared to the enemy jungler who has to react to the Alpha visual. Much more reliable for you. Having an additional smite-like to last-hit buffs/Dragon/Baron has always indisputably been an advantage when contesting those objectives--hence why it contributes to the strength of Nunu and Lee Sin as junglers. 1) Has some merit, but his jungling being slightly erratic does not make him impossible to counter-gank. With clairvoyance, which everyone fucking has, it becomes quite easy to keep tabs on Yi provided you're even kind of attentive. 2) Once again, that's reliant on a proc where other champions have equally comparable nukes and if you base your smite timing on the expected proc, you're gambling. If you base your smite timing on the regular nuke, it's not better than any other jungler using their nuke and smiting simultaneously. 1) counterjungling is not something static or simply countered by keeping track of the jungler. With such fast junglers you can clear half the jungle of your opponent if he ganks on the other side of the map and still clear your own stuff until he can react to it. Saying that vision is good to keep track of a jungler doesnt make his jungle speed any weaker. It is actually way riskier and harder to stop a fast counterjungler from stealing than to stop a ganker from killing.
I already established that stealing with Yi is incredibly risky because it relies on his proc and early game the percentage is fairly low. Once more, it being harder to stop him from counter-jungling is no more difficult than it is for comparable champions.
I already conceded that Yi being difficult to counter-jungle has some merit but it's nowhere near enough to make him worthwhile and even if you compare that on a 1-to-1 with Xin to pull Yi ahead, that was never really my point, he's still eclipsed in that department by other champions who are still by and large more useful than he is, his jungling speed does not ultimately have a major impact on the game over other champions in the role.
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He's not reliant at all on his alpha strike procs to counter jungle. He still has that absurd AD steroid in the form of Wuju Style that just tears through Wraiths and Golems (not to mention wolves).
Starting at level 4, Yi can just AA the camps and still counterjungle at a fast pace. The procs from Alpha Strike just put the nail in the coffin.
Like 5HIT mentioned, Yi has room to perform on certain teamcomps. I believe we can theorycraft behind that. I believe the best way to play a jungle Yi would be to put constant pressure on the enemy jungler. That can be achieved in the form of having a roamer putting pressure on lanes/lanes pushing hard. With this setup, the enemy jungler can't just farm his camps and must leave the jungle - leaving his camps exposed to you. Once you get a decent level advantage over him, you can bully him around with the roamer and force some engagements.
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9871 Posts
On October 05 2011 08:55 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 08:27 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere. I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter. playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao.
You play at a high level? Welcome to the forums, we have a lot of respect for the highly skilled players who post here. What's your summoner name?
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EPT
