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On October 05 2011 11:51 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 08:55 Mordiford wrote:On October 05 2011 08:27 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere. I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter. playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao. You play at a high level? Welcome to the forums, we have a lot of respect for the highly skilled players who post here. What's your summoner name?
My summoner name is Mordiford, I haven't played in over 8 months and likely won't be returning to seriously playing League of Legends which is why I don't often post on the boards because I'm not that up to date with all the new champions and their effect on the meta-game. I have no problem talking about Yi though, since I had over 350 games played with him and from what I've seen, he is largely unchanged and I feel based on the design of meditate will always be suffering from a near-useless skill when paired with the rest of his skill-set.
On October 05 2011 11:25 necrosed wrote:
He's not reliant at all on his alpha strike procs to counter jungle. He still has that absurd AD steroid in the form of Wuju Style that just tears through Wraiths and Golems (not to mention wolves).
Starting at level 4, Yi can just AA the camps and still counterjungle at a fast pace. The procs from Alpha Strike just put the nail in the coffin.
Like 5HIT mentioned, Yi has room to perform on certain teamcomps. I believe we can theorycraft behind that. I believe the best way to play a jungle Yi would be to put constant pressure on the enemy jungler. That can be achieved in the form of having a roamer putting pressure on lanes/lanes pushing hard. With this setup, the enemy jungler can't just farm his camps and must leave the jungle - leaving his camps exposed to you. Once you get a decent level advantage over him, you can bully him around with the roamer and force some engagements.
I absolutely agree that he has his place on some compositions and his counter-jungling can be effective in the early stages of the game, though I do feel that you're overrating the effectiveness of Wuju Style. I don't see him as effective at all as a solo queue champion because he needs a set team composition with superb play from allies to succeed, this is what I touched on earlier as well. It's not even a case of the risk of putting him into your composition outweighing the rewards, it's a flat out case of him not being as useful as other champions who are less risky and can be just as, if not more rewarding to have on your team.
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Well, I agree that playing like I said requires a lot of coordination (as I was thinking about premades), but Yi is a champion that really benefits from the stupidity and lack of coordination from the enemy team, so I think he is a fine solo Q champion as well.
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On October 05 2011 12:06 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 11:51 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 05 2011 08:55 Mordiford wrote:On October 05 2011 08:27 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere. I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter. playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao. You play at a high level? Welcome to the forums, we have a lot of respect for the highly skilled players who post here. What's your summoner name? My summoner name is Mordiford, I haven't played in over 8 months and likely won't be returning to seriously playing League of Legends which is why I don't often post on the boards because I'm not that up to date with all the new champions and their effect on the meta-game. I have no problem talking about Yi though, since I had over 350 games played with him and from what I've seen, he is largely unchanged and I feel based on the design of meditate will always be suffering from a near-useless skill when paired with the rest of his skill-set. Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 11:25 necrosed wrote:
He's not reliant at all on his alpha strike procs to counter jungle. He still has that absurd AD steroid in the form of Wuju Style that just tears through Wraiths and Golems (not to mention wolves).
Starting at level 4, Yi can just AA the camps and still counterjungle at a fast pace. The procs from Alpha Strike just put the nail in the coffin.
Like 5HIT mentioned, Yi has room to perform on certain teamcomps. I believe we can theorycraft behind that. I believe the best way to play a jungle Yi would be to put constant pressure on the enemy jungler. That can be achieved in the form of having a roamer putting pressure on lanes/lanes pushing hard. With this setup, the enemy jungler can't just farm his camps and must leave the jungle - leaving his camps exposed to you. Once you get a decent level advantage over him, you can bully him around with the roamer and force some engagements. I absolutely agree that he has his place on some compositions and his counter-jungling can be effective in the early stages of the game, though I do feel that you're overrating the effectiveness of Wuju Style. I don't see him as effective at all as a solo queue champion because he needs a set team composition with superb play from allies to succeed, this is what I touched on earlier as well. It's not even a case of the risk of putting him into your composition outweighing the rewards, it's a flat out case of him not being as useful as other champions who are less risky and can be just as, if not more rewarding to have on your team.
I was top 200 NA at one point and I was playing Yi at the time. Dan Dinh is arguably one of the top 5 junglers in NA and he used to main Yi. While I agree he's not the top jungler in the game, he snowballs very hard and is absolutely insane if fed. He also has the strongest backdoor out of any jungler including Shaco. Yi wins matchups against teams that are bad against defending backdoors, are low on cc, or have to frequently leave their lanes. He counterjungles like a boss and is unpredictable in terms of damage output in teamfights, similar to Kat.
The real reason you think Yi is bad is because teams in solo q don't know how to play with a Yi jungler.
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On October 06 2011 06:03 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 12:06 Mordiford wrote:On October 05 2011 11:51 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 05 2011 08:55 Mordiford wrote:On October 05 2011 08:27 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere. I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter. playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao. You play at a high level? Welcome to the forums, we have a lot of respect for the highly skilled players who post here. What's your summoner name? My summoner name is Mordiford, I haven't played in over 8 months and likely won't be returning to seriously playing League of Legends which is why I don't often post on the boards because I'm not that up to date with all the new champions and their effect on the meta-game. I have no problem talking about Yi though, since I had over 350 games played with him and from what I've seen, he is largely unchanged and I feel based on the design of meditate will always be suffering from a near-useless skill when paired with the rest of his skill-set. On October 05 2011 11:25 necrosed wrote:
He's not reliant at all on his alpha strike procs to counter jungle. He still has that absurd AD steroid in the form of Wuju Style that just tears through Wraiths and Golems (not to mention wolves).
Starting at level 4, Yi can just AA the camps and still counterjungle at a fast pace. The procs from Alpha Strike just put the nail in the coffin.
Like 5HIT mentioned, Yi has room to perform on certain teamcomps. I believe we can theorycraft behind that. I believe the best way to play a jungle Yi would be to put constant pressure on the enemy jungler. That can be achieved in the form of having a roamer putting pressure on lanes/lanes pushing hard. With this setup, the enemy jungler can't just farm his camps and must leave the jungle - leaving his camps exposed to you. Once you get a decent level advantage over him, you can bully him around with the roamer and force some engagements. I absolutely agree that he has his place on some compositions and his counter-jungling can be effective in the early stages of the game, though I do feel that you're overrating the effectiveness of Wuju Style. I don't see him as effective at all as a solo queue champion because he needs a set team composition with superb play from allies to succeed, this is what I touched on earlier as well. It's not even a case of the risk of putting him into your composition outweighing the rewards, it's a flat out case of him not being as useful as other champions who are less risky and can be just as, if not more rewarding to have on your team. I was top 200 NA at one point and I was playing Yi at the time. Dan Dinh is arguably one of the top 5 junglers in NA and he used to main Yi. While I agree he's not the top jungler in the game, he snowballs very hard and is absolutely insane if fed. He also has the strongest backdoor out of any jungler including Shaco. Yi wins matchups against teams that are bad against defending backdoors, are low on cc, or have to frequently leave their lanes. He counterjungles like a boss and is unpredictable in terms of damage output in teamfights, similar to Kat. The real reason you think Yi is bad is because teams in solo q don't know how to play with a Yi jungler.
I played Master Yi while top 400 NA, I did so with arranged teams as well with some success but his flaws would become painfully obvious against teams that knew what they were doing. Once you have your team set up to coordinate perfectly, it comes down to your opponents fucking up at higher levels of play, you can't force anything with Yi like you can with some other champions, you're entirely reliant on your opponents and that doesn't work when your opponents are good.
That's just what my experience has been.
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I think CLG is unbeaten when they run jungle Yi, lol.
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On October 06 2011 07:44 crate wrote:
I think CLG is unbeaten when they run jungle Yi, lol.
Are there any VODs for these games? I'd love to take a look at them. Also, how many games have they used jungle Yi in?
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On October 06 2011 08:22 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 07:44 crate wrote:
I think CLG is unbeaten when they run jungle Yi, lol. Are there any VODs for these games? I'd love to take a look at them. Also, how many games have they used jungle Yi in?
I know they've run him twice, and there are likely VODs but I have no idea in which events CLG ran Yi so I don't know where to search.
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On October 06 2011 06:10 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 06:03 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 05 2011 12:06 Mordiford wrote:On October 05 2011 11:51 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 05 2011 08:55 Mordiford wrote:On October 05 2011 08:27 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote:
No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere. I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter. playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao. You play at a high level? Welcome to the forums, we have a lot of respect for the highly skilled players who post here. What's your summoner name? My summoner name is Mordiford, I haven't played in over 8 months and likely won't be returning to seriously playing League of Legends which is why I don't often post on the boards because I'm not that up to date with all the new champions and their effect on the meta-game. I have no problem talking about Yi though, since I had over 350 games played with him and from what I've seen, he is largely unchanged and I feel based on the design of meditate will always be suffering from a near-useless skill when paired with the rest of his skill-set. On October 05 2011 11:25 necrosed wrote:
He's not reliant at all on his alpha strike procs to counter jungle. He still has that absurd AD steroid in the form of Wuju Style that just tears through Wraiths and Golems (not to mention wolves).
Starting at level 4, Yi can just AA the camps and still counterjungle at a fast pace. The procs from Alpha Strike just put the nail in the coffin.
Like 5HIT mentioned, Yi has room to perform on certain teamcomps. I believe we can theorycraft behind that. I believe the best way to play a jungle Yi would be to put constant pressure on the enemy jungler. That can be achieved in the form of having a roamer putting pressure on lanes/lanes pushing hard. With this setup, the enemy jungler can't just farm his camps and must leave the jungle - leaving his camps exposed to you. Once you get a decent level advantage over him, you can bully him around with the roamer and force some engagements. I absolutely agree that he has his place on some compositions and his counter-jungling can be effective in the early stages of the game, though I do feel that you're overrating the effectiveness of Wuju Style. I don't see him as effective at all as a solo queue champion because he needs a set team composition with superb play from allies to succeed, this is what I touched on earlier as well. It's not even a case of the risk of putting him into your composition outweighing the rewards, it's a flat out case of him not being as useful as other champions who are less risky and can be just as, if not more rewarding to have on your team. I was top 200 NA at one point and I was playing Yi at the time. Dan Dinh is arguably one of the top 5 junglers in NA and he used to main Yi. While I agree he's not the top jungler in the game, he snowballs very hard and is absolutely insane if fed. He also has the strongest backdoor out of any jungler including Shaco. Yi wins matchups against teams that are bad against defending backdoors, are low on cc, or have to frequently leave their lanes. He counterjungles like a boss and is unpredictable in terms of damage output in teamfights, similar to Kat. The real reason you think Yi is bad is because teams in solo q don't know how to play with a Yi jungler. I played Master Yi while top 400 NA, I did so with arranged teams as well with some success but his flaws would become painfully obvious against teams that knew what they were doing. Once you have your team set up to coordinate perfectly, it comes down to your opponents fucking up at higher levels of play, you can't force anything with Yi like you can with some other champions, you're entirely reliant on your opponents and that doesn't work when your opponents are good. That's just what my experience has been.
It ALWAYS comes down to your opponents fucking up at high levels of play.
Like I was saying though, Yi's not unplayable, and I'm not arguing that he's godlike either, he's just a jungler you don't see often in high elo like shaco/ezreal/gragas.
Also shushei runs AD yi top lane iirc.
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what can you guys say about building starks and cleaver out of the jungle with yi? youll have like mercs, wriggles, starks, cleaver + defensive item. both items are not costly and you can help your ranged carry to mow down their bruiser (because of the +65armorreduction and attackspeed aura). Its also not a too specialized build since both starks and cleaver reduce armor (not penetrate) so you also hit squishies real hard. Also kinda makes sense to build something cheaper comming out of the jungle and its waaaaaay safter to hit the bruiser with yi than try to assassinate a carry. bruiser goes down real fast. tested it vs udyr and cho so far.
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The real problem with that isn't so much that it's a bad item choice but rather it's pretty much straight outclassed by ghostblade, which is like everything master yi wants in one item.
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Man... after reading this thread I kinda wanna play Yi again. Maybe I'll get drunnnnnk and do it sometime next week. PvE too fun.
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I played AP yi a few days ago, and my team was bitching that I did no damage. Check grid after game, I did the most damage on either team by like 75k.
:/
(Our jungle nunu died to blue.....twice, and bot lane started both with boots and no pots)
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Well, damage done is not a very good stat specially on AP Yi, since most of his damage is done to creeps.
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On October 06 2011 11:32 necrosed wrote:
Well, damage done is not a very good stat specially on AP Yi, since most of his damage is done to creeps.
I know, but I was still doing a shitton more damage than anyone else on my team. (At the end of this 45 minute game, nunu was level 14, renekton was just selling doran blades 4 and 5 and I dont remember what everyone else was doing)
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On October 06 2011 09:22 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
The real problem with that isn't so much that it's a bad item choice but rather it's pretty much straight outclassed by ghostblade, which is like everything master yi wants in one item.
ye I'am aware of the power of ghostblade. Just that buying ghostblade+sth has a completely different purpose. I mean with starks and cleaver you and your ranged carry will kill their bruiser so fast. I'ts a terribly cheap build also. I've tried it and it worked a couple times and it was amazing how fast you can kill udyr/singed/chogath with this. If you would try the same thing with GB+sth then you'll have lesser results because the synergy inst there. You dont need additional MS to kill that bruiser and you dont need burst damage. To kill a farmed atmogs/what ever tank you need a fuckton of armpen. Also it is soooo safe and easy to help your carry kill their bruiser and snowball from this kill/assist compared to trying to run after their carry from the get go.
Let us look at the numbers:
Starks:
40 AS, 20 ArmRed, 20 lifesteal, 30 HReg, (Aura: 20 AS, 20 ArmRed, 20 lifesteal, 30 HReg)
PD:
55 AS, 30crit, 15 MS
GB:
50 AS (active), 20 ArmPen, 30 damage, 15 crit, 20 MS (active), 15 cdr
All those items cost about the same.
Starks really doesnt look that bad here. Looking at these stats I dont feel like I'am buying something overpriced. I'ts easyer to compare it to PD since both items give permanent bonuses. Damage wise you compare 20 ArmRed to 15 AS and 30 crit. 20 ArmRed is worth a 10-20% damage increase depending on your total armpen+armred compared to his armor. The PD wins on purely that I must say, but I dont feel gimped looking at having the aura bonuses and the high HP regen through the flat amount and the lifesteal and the additional damage PD does is not huge or something. I'ts a slight advantage, while Starks also sustains you and has like insane aura bonuses.
Ghostblade in the other hand surely wins on the burst front. But Iam pretty sure that your overall damage is a bit higher with the other items. Ghostblade is for hunting carries and killing turrets faster. This is not what I want at this point with my build. I want to safely kill their bruiser alongside my carry and snowball out of it because of highlander. (iam not saying that I wouldnt build ghostblade with this build at some point. I'ts just not core)
So I hope I explained my thoughts well enough. So what do you think? buy starks+cleaver (after wriggles+shoes) and helping kill tanks?
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Ghostblade + Last Whisper tears tanks just fine.
Don't forget that you're jungling, so your gold income won't be very high (especially against teams that know what they're doing). So you'll have to buy cost-effective items.
Turns out that Brutalizer and Youmuu's are two of the most cost-effective items in the game, and you can buy them relatively fast. (Last Whisper is also very cost effective if the medium enemy armor is 100+).
So buying Starks + Cleaver means you'll have to dish a ton of gold on expensive core items (Bow, Best-Friend Sword), meaning you'll will be very innefective while you don't have them built. Don't forget that, being a jungler, you'll most likely have to spend some gold in wards and possibily an oracle's. You have also invested already on boots (zerker's, please) and Wriggles. Avarice and Brutalizer are relatively cheap (750 vs 1050, 1337 vs 1650) and can be bought by small pieces (Brawler's, Longswords). It doesn't matter if the end game your Starks + BC may look better (which I doubt it, too. The crits and extra speed from Youmuus are from out of this world), we're realistic speaking about having one less item than the Youmuu's building Yi and killing people/creeps/towers slower than the youmuu's one in the long run.
If, however, you aren't jungling, just go IE-PD-LW, please.
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you missed the whole point of my post it seems. also for last whisper to be more effective than cleaver on top of the arpen you allready have from starks(or gb) + runes the tank has to have like 200 armor at this point. Also it only increases your own arpen.
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I'm not talking about Starks + BC + Last Whisper. That item build is just bad.
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On October 06 2011 23:28 clickrush wrote:
you missed the whole point of my post it seems. also for last whisper to be more effective than cleaver on top of the arpen you allready have from starks(or gb) + runes the tank has to have like 200 armor at this point. Also it only increases your own arpen.
The point is that you are simply noobstomping. There's absolutely no freaking way you can go into a game expecting to farm a BF sword from the jungle unless you are simply playing against people who feed you nonstop. Ghostblade is good because all of its parts are cheap. You recall with 800 or 900 gold and you actually buy a couple of long sword or avarice blade and that is actually reasonable.
You are proposing a build with around 8k gold in core items for a jungle character, so no, it's not a good build. After ghostblade, the natural thing to do after that is to tank up or build even more backdoor centric, neither of which you need black cleaver for.
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EPT
