One of the most consistent melee DPS champions, Master Yi brings a great deal of sustained damage for your team. Equipped with high natural move speed and skills to de-aggro, Yi thrives in the front line.
Skill Order: QEQEQR, R > Q > E > W Item Build: Cloth Armor + 5 HP pot => Boots => Razor => Wiggle’s => Berserker’s Greaves => Brutalizer => Youmuu’s Ghostblade => DPS items (Black Cleaver, Infinity Edge, Sword of the Divine, Atma’s Impaler, Bloodthrister) and/or survivability items (Phage, Frozen Mallet, Banshee’s)
Playstyle Jungle path is Golems (Smite) => Wraiths => Wolves (Smite), home to regen mana. Depending on how lucky you are with Q procs, you have the potential to be level 3 before any of the other champions are even level 2. I usually use one hp pot at Golems. If you are unlucky at Wraiths, you may need to use another pot. When you back, you should have ~300 gold, not enough for boots yet.
From here, do Blue (Smite) and go harass the closest lane. You need to buy some time for Smite to refresh but you can usually get in range to land at least one Q against the enemy champion before returning home. Your goal is only to do some damage against the enemy so you force them to back from lane before your ally does.
Once you have Blue, spam Q as often as possible. Lucky Q procs mean you finish camps in half the time a normal junglers has to and there lines Jungle Yi’s greatest strength. Return home to buy Boots, get Red (Smite) then gank with Q, Red proc, and Ghost. Your core items are Wiggle’s, Greaves and Ghostblade. Wiggle’s provides anti-jungle procs and a source of leech life. Ghostblade is multifaceted with +AD, + Armor Pen and –CDR.
Ganking After level 6, ganking is vital to Master Yi’s repertoire. Typically, after you have Lizard Buff, proceed to the weakest lane for a kill. From the brush, run in and pop Ghost. If the enemy doesn't have Ghost, you will catch up easily. Unless the enemy Flashes across a wall, there’s no escaping a Red Yi (Flash is not an escape spell from Yi). As for Highlander, use this skill wisely. Your primary use for your ulti is the use it for its pseudo-Cleanse ability. If you’re ganking a Swain and he Laser Birds you, pop your ulti as soon as the slow lands and you’ll proceed to chase. Ghost vs Ghost chases still tend to favor Yi since Yi has one of the highest base MS in the game. Use Highlander to throw the chase entirely in your favor. The main idea is to simply get in range to Q, then land a single autoattack with Red to slow.
Mid and Late Game Mid game is all about “backdooring”. Ghostblade is all the real DPS you need until you can invest in a high tier DPS item. Have your team force 4v1 pushes, while you ward the river with Wiggle’s and a Sight Ward. Q constantly to keep the lanes pushed in your favor. As soon as you’ve compiled a solid minion wave and no enemies incoming sighted from your wards, mow down the tower with Highlander + Ghostblade active. If left uninterrupted. Master Yi can take down a tower in 15-25 seconds. Even if the enemy comes to chase, you still have Ghost up to run away. Use your best judgment to decide when to finish the tower and when to retreat prematurely. Remember that 1-2 enemy champions is usually not enough to stop Yi from solo pushing a lane. If they send any more champions, it gives your team of 4 a big advantage in their lane.
My typical item build is Wiggle’s, Greaves, Ghostblade, Black Cleaver, Infinity Edge, Banshee’s. If the game doesn’t end, you can always trade the Wiggle’s in for a Bloodthrister. However, if the enemy team is equipped with a lot of burst, you may want consider the Mallet + Banshee’s + Atma option. The trifecta gives you a ton of HP, MR, Armor and a spell block. Atma’s passive gives you a boost in your damage as well, due to your increased HP.
Late game team fights, it’s all about letting your team initiate, wait until the enemy team has blown their CC, then clean up. Use the same tactic as before, Ghost in, save Highlander as a pseudo-Cleanse. Q as often as possible to de-aggro and obviously focus on the squishies. They are the easiest to kill and help refresh Highlander.
On January 30 2011 07:26 TheYango wrote: Any setup for AP Yi? I've always wanted to try AP Yi, but I'm not sure how to spec him out correctly.
AP Yi is a troll build. Have fun with it but it's not something I'd play in a serious setting.
9 0 21, typical caster setup. Summoners are your choices. Pick from Exhaust/Ignite/Ghost/Flash QWQWQR, R > Q > W > E Ring, Boots, Ring, Sorc's, Death Cap, Zhonya's, Void Staff. Rylai's/RoA if you really need the HP, otherwise just glass cannon it.
Building AP, when you Meditate, it'll act more or less like a mini-Zhonya's. Be sure you have allies to follow up what you're chasing otherwise you're still going to die after Meditate finishes. And remember that you can be stunned out of Meditate.
Edit: CDR boots are also viable. Probably better because faster Q's mean more de-aggro. Great for glass cannon.
On January 30 2011 07:22 gtrsrs wrote: i thought highlander is only a "CANNOT BE SLOWED" effect... if sion stuns you you're gonna be stunned
do you mean you should alpha while his stun is in the air to dodge the projectile?
er, bad example. I mixed up stun and snare for some reason. Replaced Sion with Swain, derp.
okay, i thought maybe i just didn't know that on activation it removed all CC like olaf and then prevented slows i was a tad confused
yi takes down dragon soooo fast at 6 with BR or wriggles
I'm not sure if it removes stun, I know it removes snares. I vaguely remember getting out of stuns before using the ulti after the stun hits, not before. But I may be mistaken.
I'll wait for someone else to try it out then post. I'm not going to be online to test it out myself today.
Laser Bird is a slow. Nevermove is a root. Basically I know slow, root, silence, fear, blind, stun, suppression, taunt. I don't know any snares. Is snare = slow?
Yi's ult is supposed to remove/prevent all slows, and nothing else. No need to wait with your ult until the slow lands (unlike Garen's Judgement or Cleanse). Alpha Strike is really good to prevent CC like Sion's stun. I hate Alpha Strike so much, it's a free Zhonya's that deals damage...
On January 30 2011 07:43 spinesheath wrote: Laser Bird is a slow. Nevermove is a root. Basically I know slow, root, silence, fear, blind, stun, suppression, taunt. I don't know any snares. Is snare = slow?
Yi's ult is supposed to remove/prevent all slows, and nothing else. No need to wait with your ult until the slow lands (unlike Garen's Judgement or Cleanse). Alpha Strike is really good to prevent CC like Sion's stun. I hate Alpha Strike so much, it's a free Zhonya's that deals damage...
snares are Morgana's dark binding and lux's double thing and ryze's rune prison. mummy's ult might be a snare i don't recall
I believe there's no difference between Snare and Root. Also my favorite jungle path is enemywraiths wolves wraiths golems enemywraiths repeat until you have to go b. The biggest thing about jungle Yi is that it's inefficient to take blue or red until you have Razor.
I wouldn't say AP Yi is a complete troll build. It just has a really rough early game, which can snowball into either a game where you can't do anything, or a game in which you just faceroll them. (This is coming from someone in ~1400 ELO)
For skills I go Q>E>Q>W>Q>R prioritizing R>Q>W>E, except for the point in E at level two, which makes harassing with double strike and last hitting easier. MPen Reds, mana/5 or armor yellows, ap/lvl blues, and either health or flat ap quints for runes. These runes make your early game easier in hopes of getting you set for late game.
I like to start with dorans ring in lane (i prefer duo lane with someone with a stun), and on the first b getting boots and usually another ring or two. How easy your lane is will determine how many rings to get before mejais. I think mejais is pretty essential because AP yi is either a faceroll or fail build and the stacks will give your early/mid game a huge boost in both damage and survivability (with W). After that, you can get hat or hourglass, again depending on how well you are doing. Throw a lichbane in somewhere and you are gonna be nuking for tons of damage, with a 4 target nuke has an instacooldown if you get a kill with it (which makes getting the first kill/killsteal pretty important in a team fight).
Hopefully, things go ok and it ends something like this:
Double or triple stack doran's ring Sorcerer's shoes/CD (i go cd but tbh I think sorc shoes are better) Deathcap Deathfire Grasp/Lichbane (favor deathfire pretty strongly)
Don't go mejai's, it's just better to get your cap earlier
I'm surprised that you don't mention wraith jacking.
I don't have experience in high-level games but jack-wolves-wraiths-golems back buy pots (maybe a ward) attempt to jack (you may be able to get fb here) blue-your creeps cept red back finish razor-red-gank has been working well.
Haven't tried 21/0/9 but I go 1/14/15 with speed boosts. Lantern zerker (unless they are full of stuns, which go merc) gb then it deviates.
I also recommend going qss as the few stuns the enemies have at their disposal may be easily countered by it (ww/malz lul, also useful vs say mumu).
Thinking of going cleaver over ie, dunno haven't tested.
Also if you proc on blue wraith at jack, go steal golems.
On January 30 2011 07:43 spinesheath wrote: Laser Bird is a slow. Nevermove is a root. Basically I know slow, root, silence, fear, blind, stun, suppression, taunt. I don't know any snares. Is snare = slow?
Yi's ult is supposed to remove/prevent all slows, and nothing else. No need to wait with your ult until the slow lands (unlike Garen's Judgement or Cleanse). Alpha Strike is really good to prevent CC like Sion's stun. I hate Alpha Strike so much, it's a free Zhonya's that deals damage...
snares are Morgana's dark binding and lux's double thing and ryze's rune prison. mummy's ult might be a snare i don't recall
Those are all roots (including Amumu ult), at least by Riot's terms. Especially not slows. Roots prevent you from moving normally or with a spell. So Yi's ultimate is not supposed to remove those. Neo seemed to use snare as a synonym for slow. You are using it as a synonym for root. I suggest not using it at all :p
I've played against an AP Yi with 600-700 AP in Lategame yesterday and even tho we were winning, it's pretty stupid, he's unkillable unless you can stunlock him 100-0 and at the same time he also does stupid damage.
Its something I copied from lilac, and it works bloody well, you build it into zerker treads and then you get a vamp scepter and go to ghostblade. Alternatively go for zeal + mercs + starks + ghostblade build.
those are the builds i varied from when playing yi, no idea why you shouldnt open longsword if you want wriggles, since yi can do it.
In my experience additional straight damage items are useless after yomuu's and the first arpen item because once they figure out you're absurdly fed they focus you like crazy. stacking bloodthirsters is much better and easily lets you do a quadra kill if they aren't paying attention. this is in unranked, though...
On February 05 2011 07:21 MobutuTheWindSeeker wrote: In my experience additional straight damage items are useless after yomuu's and the first arpen item because once they figure out you're absurdly fed they focus you like crazy. stacking bloodthirsters is much better and easily lets you do a quadra kill if they aren't paying attention. this is in unranked, though...
w8 wat, u say additional straight dmg items are useless and proceed to tell us to stack bloodthirsters?
enlighten me plz
edit: after ghostblade + wriggles (if im jungling), i usually get either a bveil or an atmas, depending on the dmg type. the atmas needs to be followed up by another item tho. warmogs is feasible in some games, more likely i'd get omen or bveil or something like that.
When jungling with Yi, what is the optimal ArPen you should have?
Right now i use AS Quints and Reds and have 6 ArPen from masteries, would changing some AS runes for ArPen runes make my jungling better? If so, how much ArPen is optimal?
From my calculations, AD and ASpd from runes both seem to win over APen, at least during the first few levels. AD quints and ASpd marks are best, but the difference is so small that you should get ASpd quints anyways to proc more on-hits if you go razors.
On February 09 2011 20:54 spinesheath wrote: From my calculations, AD and ASpd from runes both seem to win over APen, at least during the first few levels. AD quints and ASpd marks are best, but the difference is so small that you should get ASpd quints anyways to proc more on-hits if you go razors.
So you recommend going Aspd both Red and Quints? Did I understand that right?
My jungle page at the moment consists of, aspd reds, flat armor yellows, mp5/lvl blues and flat hp quints or movement quints.
Would you say that's a good setup for Yi? Or would getting Aspd quints be better?
I used to use MS quints, but have moved to AS, you jungle faster and safer and you already have high MS from your base MS, MS masteries (I use 15 0 15). ghostblade and ulti.
Thing is, would you go AS blues and/or yellows too?
All I recommend is: If you use offensive quints (AD, APen, ASpd) and don't have a special reason to take some other runes (Tiger Stance), ASpd should be best.
However there are more complex things that might play a role. For example some monsters might always end up with 5 HP before your last attack, taking an AD rune might allow you to kill them with 1 attack less and save you some time that way.
I've been jungling Yi a bit lately, and I'm confused about your route. Why not start blue? If you get a person to hit blue and then go to lane with the new deagro system, you can take blue without any q procs with ease, and if you're getting like 2 or 3 procs before red, you can clear the whole jungle without problems. I mean, if you don't have a champ mid with range or a ranged skill it might be annoying for the person who hits the golem, and he might miss a creep of experience, but imo it should always be worth it. Or am I just a huge noob :D?
To be honest, I have no real idea if/why Triforce would be good on Yi but I tested it out after seeing Strelo rape on some of the livestreams and it works rather well.
Cloth + 5 hp pots => Wiggle's => Zerkers => Sheen => complete Trinity or Banshees => complete other => Black Cleaver => QSS
Ghostblade feels all out offensive while Triforce does give some added hp and Sheen proc.
I would guess it's 1st proc with Alpha Strike, and then you kinda have to wait 2 seconds before you use Wuju if you want a second proc - but 2 seconds without Wuju is a long time. Same with Highlander. Meditate isn't really all that awesome for Sheen procs either... So how do you do it? I just can't imagine that a single 150 damage is worth the investment.
Phage + GB costs about as much as Triforce. GB gives some crit, and the active ASpd and MSpd, so the Zeal part is covered (and I would argue that the short duration active is better on Yi than the lower but constant stats from zeal). Phage covers the Phage stats, I think you will trust me on that. So we have the Sheen part. Does Yi need the Mana? I don't think so, but I don't know. 30 AP? Not that epic, mainly 30 damage from Alpha. Now Triforce still has +12 AD over Phage and the 120-150 damage proc. Youmuu's has 30 AD and 20 APen. I would guess that's about evening out after 3-4 attacks. Not exactly a problem with Highlander + Youmuu's.
On February 09 2011 22:55 Papvin wrote: I've been jungling Yi a bit lately, and I'm confused about your route. Why not start blue? If you get a person to hit blue and then go to lane with the new deagro system, you can take blue without any q procs with ease, and if you're getting like 2 or 3 procs before red, you can clear the whole jungle without problems. I mean, if you don't have a champ mid with range or a ranged skill it might be annoying for the person who hits the golem, and he might miss a creep of experience, but imo it should always be worth it. Or am I just a huge noob :D?
I see 2 reasons for not starting at blue with Yi:
1) The cdr/mana don't really help your clear speed--on small camps you're probably going to Alpha once, and be done with the camp before its off CD again. Blue makes that more sustainable, but you'll probably run out of HP pots before mana becomes an issue.
2) You're not that fast at it. Alpha is great at clearing small camps, especially when you can get multiple procs, but its super slow on big buff camps when you're waiting for it to come off CD. When you take your passive into account, your buff clearing ability is just so much better if you have razors.
Triforce probably just helps condense your damage output to more bursty, while giving you a little bit of everything else you need.
Yi usually doesn't alpha strike into his assassination target. He runs in with highlander activated (sheen proc) because then he can use alpha strike to dodge the incoming focus fire (another sheen proc), as well as close down on the people who flash away.
Can probably use wuji to proc it a third time, although I wouldn't know whether it's worth it.
If he happens to kill someone, his cooldowns refresh and he can start over, so he's more spammy than he appears if things go his way (and he's rather all-or-nothing).
1/8/21 Full Aspd runes smite/ghost Cloth Armor + 3 potions Start Wraiths or wraith jack, either way go wraiths -> wolves -> wraiths -> small golems -> bluepill -> blue buff -> wolves -> wraiths -> small golems -> bluepill -> red buff
Obviously change route to match procs and game flow
Wriggles -> zerks/merc -> situational damage items--sometimes I rush IE, sometimes I go bloodthirster, sometimes I go Ghostblade or BC or LW -> after you got enough offensive items GA/Banshees.
I play a heavy counterjungle style on (all my junglers but especially) Yi, I feel like he brings a lot to the counterjungling game. Your main strat is to hit a gank, clear the lane, take a tower and gtfo.
@ neo- Your jungle path can be improved a little bit. I've actually found that going 20-0-10 cloth+5, then going golems, wraiths, wolves, blue then pilling is possible. The key is that you only alpha strike to conserve mana. Even getting unlucky with procs the 5 hp pots let you live with enough health to get blue and cut one of the backs out of your route.
On February 14 2011 11:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I do something similar but completely different:
1/8/21 Full Aspd runes smite/ghost Cloth Armor + 3 potions Start Wraiths or wraith jack, either way go wraiths -> wolves -> wraiths -> small golems -> bluepill -> blue buff -> wolves -> wraiths -> small golems -> bluepill -> red buff
Obviously change route to match procs and game flow
Wriggles -> zerks/merc -> situational damage items--sometimes I rush IE, sometimes I go bloodthirster, sometimes I go Ghostblade or BC or LW -> after you got enough offensive items GA/Banshees.
I play a heavy counterjungle style on (all my junglers but especially) Yi, I feel like he brings a lot to the counterjungling game. Your main strat is to hit a gank, clear the lane, take a tower and gtfo.
rock that shit
Woo, same. However, would it significantly matter vs 1/14/15? I often try to second wraith jack because sometimes enemy junglers (usually Amumu/Olaf) will be doing wraiths and I will alpha strike, perhaps getting FB, and stealing wraiths again. After blue usually.
So I've started playing jungle Yi after being forced into picking him when the other team took both my usual junglers (WW and nunu), and I'm really enjoying his clear speed so far.
This is a pic of a recent game I carried, but I'm not posting it to gloat, I wanna know where I could make improvements to my build. I built a starks because I felt like it helped the team out a bit, and gave me some lifesteal that I felt I was lacking. Ideally I would've had mundo build it, but whatever. Should I have built a BT instead or what?
I had enough money to add a new item if I needed to, I just wasn't sure what I should be getting, so your thoughts would be appreciated. So yeah, basically what should a 'infinite money' build for this game have looked like?
Furthermore, in the game my strategy was to pretty much solo push so they were forced to send 2 people to stop me (I could 1v1 anyone on their team), and when for some reason a teamfight broke out when i was around (I have no idea what the teams were fighting over... but that's low elo for ya) I would try and wait for sion stun and blitz silence before dashing in. So how can I improve on that as a strategy?
Also, things like baron and dragon - when (lvl / items) can a Yi reasonably expect to solo dragon quickly?
Thanks for any feedback.
Oh just to further reinforce that I'm not posting to gloat (cause there is nothing to gloat about), they didn't have a jungler, even tho this is a pretty rare occurence. I had a hard time juggling farming both jungles and ganking so that my lanes didn't feed - anyone got any advice in this area? (I don't suppose it's a common problem though).
On February 14 2011 11:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I do something similar but completely different:
1/8/21 Full Aspd runes smite/ghost Cloth Armor + 3 potions Start Wraiths or wraith jack, either way go wraiths -> wolves -> wraiths -> small golems -> bluepill -> blue buff -> wolves -> wraiths -> small golems -> bluepill -> red buff
Obviously change route to match procs and game flow
Wriggles -> zerks/merc -> situational damage items--sometimes I rush IE, sometimes I go bloodthirster, sometimes I go Ghostblade or BC or LW -> after you got enough offensive items GA/Banshees.
I play a heavy counterjungle style on (all my junglers but especially) Yi, I feel like he brings a lot to the counterjungling game. Your main strat is to hit a gank, clear the lane, take a tower and gtfo.
rock that shit
Woo, same. However, would it significantly matter vs 1/14/15? I often try to second wraith jack because sometimes enemy junglers (usually Amumu/Olaf) will be doing wraiths and I will alpha strike, perhaps getting FB, and stealing wraiths again. After blue usually.
flipping on ghost+ lizard-> alpha strike when they flash or use an escape ability 21 in utility = more deadly ganks, and faster smite cd-> more counterjungling. b/c you dont want to be in enemy jungle for very long. i use 21 in utility when i rammus, but on a champ like yi i play like my ww, very farm oriented so i go 15/0/15 (ww) 21/0/9(yi)
On February 19 2011 20:33 freelander wrote: could someone on US tell me what runes Strelo uses on his master yi? thx
as ylw/quint armor pen red mres//lvl blue 21/0/9 and cloth+5 pots i assume he likes wriggles mercs into a fast zeal or sheen(dunno his reasoning for prefernce)-> trinity then cleaver or negatron assuming negatron-> banshees later on but haven't seen anything on match list past that Strelo -US
So I bought Yi the other day cuz he's cheap, but I feed massively with DPS Yi. Any tips?
To compensate for my suck I've been going AP Yi and if my teammates notice, they scapegoat me hardcore. As AP Yi, I get the same skill build/masteries [1-8-21] as DPS Yi, except my runes are different and after I get wiggle's I get ionian boots, Deathcap, lichbane, brilliance elixers and then watever. It doesn't seem to slow down my neutralling at all, and in teamfights I survive better. The only real complaint I have with the build is that if I don't get bluebuff (i.e. I let a teammate get it), I feel kinda naked. How is DPS Yi better? Or what should I be doing to play DPS yi better?
AP Yi should be 9/0/21 for the CDR and mpen. You don't need strength of spirit because one or two points in meditate will keep you in lane forever. Do not get wriggles (no jungle ap yi), and get sorc boots or merc treads.
That said, AP is more of a troll build. Awesome for laning, and if you get an ult/alpha combo you'll wipe the enemy team, but it's still dangerous.
DPS is all about knowing when to enter a teamfight, and saving alpha strike and meditate for when you get focused. Your staying power comes from cleanse and lifesteal.
I still jungle crazy fast, and steal their buffs and fuck their jungler over, meanwhile, I'm the same level as my teams soloers, and if I bump into someone in the jungle, my first strike does more damage and convinces them to run.... why shouldn't I jungle AP Yi?
On February 24 2011 15:32 Tadzio wrote: I still jungle crazy fast, and steal their buffs and fuck their jungler over, meanwhile, I'm the same level as my teams soloers, and if I bump into someone in the jungle, my first strike does more damage and convinces them to run.... why shouldn't I jungle AP Yi?
AD Yi wants to max QE (which is good for jungling) AP Yi wants to max QW.
AP Yi looks like a barrel of fun, and I'd like to try....I did notice after trying it once that after your Q is down you're pretty much useless until it comes back up again (you can meditate but I tend to save it for when I need it). Chasing and DPSing someone down with highlander sucks when you do no autoattack damage....is it worth building him as a hybrid? Something along the lines of ring--->boots-->Deathcap/mejai's/huge AP item-->rageblade-->lichbane-->gunblade? This way your nuke still hits for a lot but you cans till do decent damage by chasing someone down, and even survive a 1v1 with the lifesteal from gunblade. Not sure of the build order and obviously this needs to be refined a whole bunch, but what say you TL? Just for funzies?
AP Yi is a straight up nuker who wants to killsteal with Highlander so he can nuke again. Rageblade and Gunblade are no-no's. No Mejai's because you're going to die eventually from your melee range alpha strike. Lichbane is OK because you end up right next to your target for the proc.
if you build hybrid you end up sucking at both dps and nuking - you choose one or the other
also on that note, the biggest reason why AP Yi is a joke build is the killstealing and farming tons of cs to turn it into massive unreliable damage and zero utility. At least Annie can stun.
so far what I've been doing is cloth armor -> first attack item -> mordreds + ionian boots -> any item that does execess damage. I do run away from pure team buids that scare me
I'm surprised by the builds that are considered "standard" on yi.
On my smurf I usually go wriggles triforce, getting mercs before triforce and wits end if casters are being annoying. Otherwise wriggles atmogs. Jungling with no masteries is a pain tho, I might try wriggles ghostblade sotd but I always know my team is going to get raped horribly whenever I abandom them. Probably too much smurfing.
On July 10 2011 12:49 r33k wrote: I'm surprised by the builds that are considered "standard" on yi.
On my smurf I usually go wriggles triforce, getting mercs before triforce and wits end if casters are being annoying. Otherwise wriggles atmogs. Jungling with no masteries is a pain tho, I might try wriggles ghostblade sotd but I always know my team is going to get raped horribly whenever I abandom them. Probably too much smurfing.
Why triforce? Yi doesn't really spam skills for the triforce proc does he? And the triforce proc doesn't amplify the damage from his passive right?
On July 10 2011 12:49 r33k wrote: I'm surprised by the builds that are considered "standard" on yi.
On my smurf I usually go wriggles triforce, getting mercs before triforce and wits end if casters are being annoying. Otherwise wriggles atmogs. Jungling with no masteries is a pain tho, I might try wriggles ghostblade sotd but I always know my team is going to get raped horribly whenever I abandom them. Probably too much smurfing.
Why triforce? Yi doesn't really spam skills for the triforce proc does he? And the triforce proc doesn't amplify the damage from his passive right?
It has ms a slow some mana and some ap. All stuff that I end up needing.
On July 10 2011 12:49 r33k wrote: I'm surprised by the builds that are considered "standard" on yi.
On my smurf I usually go wriggles triforce, getting mercs before triforce and wits end if casters are being annoying. Otherwise wriggles atmogs. Jungling with no masteries is a pain tho, I might try wriggles ghostblade sotd but I always know my team is going to get raped horribly whenever I abandom them. Probably too much smurfing.
Why triforce? Yi doesn't really spam skills for the triforce proc does he? And the triforce proc doesn't amplify the damage from his passive right?
Against anyone that really knows what they're doing, you pretty much have to play like an anti-carry in fights anyway (and outside of fights, Triforce's MS/proc makes it great for split-pushing), which means Triforce's front-loaded damage is what you want, and not the sustained damage from other items. If you blow up their carry in one round of QER, your CDs will reset, giving you another round of Triforce procs. And if you can't blow them up in one round QER, you're probably screwed either way and having more sustained-damage items probably wouldn't help you.
Just used your jungle route + skill order + runes as best I could (aka 5 a/s marks...) and had the best Yi game of my life.. I really like the jungle route -- too bad mid stole exp from my wraiths and me being lvl2 vs blue golem led to my death >__>
but yeah. thanks for the guide. i went for a different item route (the lifesteal thing that builds into stark's, then brutalizer then ghostblade) and it worked out ok but it was just pubstompin' so yeah.
What I don't get is for Yi... Why start golems and not wolves? Wolves first allows for such a quick leveling process (second round is blue -> full clear and you almost ding 6 from it) which Yi needs pretty badly.
Even better is starting enemy wraiths -> wolves -> wraiths, however you won't have smite up for your wraiths and people actually defend wraiths nowadays. >_>
I suck balls as Master Yi, and yet he's my absolute favourite character, and as such I'm trying to develop an AP-ish jungle build, (though it requires farrrrrrrrmm T_T) help would be appreciated. (>1250) What items and in what order, because I don't see him doing enough damage if I don't rush deathcap... Build: Cloth + 5 -> razor -> recurve bow -> Deathcap -> void staff -> madred's? Other options: DFG, Lichbane, Wit's End Some sort of AP build that can follow up with proc magic dmg later. My current theorycraft... Help please!
On September 30 2011 01:22 seppolevne wrote: I suck balls as Master Yi, and yet he's my absolute favourite character, and as such I'm trying to develop an AP-ish jungle build, (though it requires farrrrrrrrmm T_T) help would be appreciated. (>1250) What items and in what order, because I don't see him doing enough damage if I don't rush deathcap... Build: Cloth + 5 -> razor -> recurve bow -> Deathcap -> void staff -> madred's? Other options: DFG, Lichbane, Wit's End Some sort of AP build that can follow up with proc magic dmg later. My current theorycraft... Help please!
I've tried just about every kind of Yi at higher levels and I can tell you right now that if you're going to be succeeding with AP Yi it will be in situations where the opposing team falls behind early and you're really the only magic damage dealer on the team.
If you really want to go AP Yi, jungling doesn't really work, which is one of the major issues with playing him AP. Your build is more or less fine, but it will always be hit or miss for you and generally won't be successful if you get to higher levels.
Yi in general is just a rubbish champion, I haven't played in a while but unless they buffed him recently, he doesn't really fit into any line-up better than various other champions. I would basically pick Xin Zhao over him at any time.
Meditate is an absolutely idiotic ability on him in it's current form, he's a melee assassin who relies on mobility to stay alive and has an ability that makes him stand still for no gains afterwards. It's major use is in-combat and even then it's super-duper-duper situational. I recommended reducing the duration to 3 seconds while keeping the heal the same, and having half the armor/magic reduction remain for 3 seconds after channeling, would give it some more use.
Currently, he's just a very difficult hero to be successful with at high levels and a testament to the role redundancy and role superiority issue that exists within League of Legends for me. He can work well with a well put together team, but in every single situation you can think of, there's a champion who can do what he can do just as well, and is also better in other situations.
Back to your question, you want to get a sheen early if you're going AP, I don't know why you'd want to go half and half which is why jungling with him as AP is kind of wonky. You want to get a single level of your wuju style to proc the sheen early on. You can have decent damage. Still not worth it in the end.
On September 30 2011 01:32 Mogwai wrote: why the fuck are you doing anything AP related from the jungle? whole point of AP Yi is that he can lane afaik.
This.
Pretty much the only thing that's any good about AP Yi is the fact that exerts quite a lot of pressure in lane, due to having free harass and a ton of sustain.
On September 30 2011 01:32 Mogwai wrote: why the fuck are you doing anything AP related from the jungle? whole point of AP Yi is that he can lane afaik.
The "AP in the jungle" was because I'm usually jungling (not many jungle/ I prefer it)... Sort of a "make lemonade" kinda thing.
On September 30 2011 01:22 seppolevne wrote: I suck balls as Master Yi, and yet he's my absolute favourite character, and as such I'm trying to develop an AP-ish jungle build, (though it requires farrrrrrrrmm T_T) help would be appreciated. (>1250) What items and in what order, because I don't see him doing enough damage if I don't rush deathcap... Build: Cloth + 5 -> razor -> recurve bow -> Deathcap -> void staff -> madred's? Other options: DFG, Lichbane, Wit's End Some sort of AP build that can follow up with proc magic dmg later. My current theorycraft... Help please!
I've tried just about every kind of Yi at higher levels and I can tell you right now that if you're going to be succeeding with AP Yi it will be in situations where the opposing team falls behind early and you're really the only magic damage dealer on the team.
If you really want to go AP Yi, jungling doesn't really work, which is one of the major issues with playing him AP. Your build is more or less fine, but it will always be hit or miss for you and generally won't be successful if you get to higher levels.
Yi in general is just a rubbish champion, I haven't played in a while but unless they buffed him recently, he doesn't really fit into any line-up better than various other champions. I would basically pick Xin Zhao over him at any time.
Meditate is an absolutely idiotic ability on him in it's current form, he's a melee assassin who relies on mobility to stay alive and has an ability that makes him stand still for no gains afterwards. It's major use is in-combat and even then it's super-duper-duper situational. I recommended reducing the duration to 3 seconds while keeping the heal the same, and having half the armor/magic reduction remain for 3 seconds after channeling, would give it some more use.
Currently, he's just a very difficult hero to be successful with at high levels and a testament to the role redundancy and role superiority issue that exists within League of Legends for me. He can work well with a well put together team, but in every single situation you can think of, there's a champion who can do what he can do just as well, and is also better in other situations.
Back to your question, you want to get a sheen early if you're going AP, I don't know why you'd want to go half and half which is why jungling with him as AP is kind of wonky. You want to get a single level of your wuju style to proc the sheen early on. You can have decent damage. Still not worth it in the end.
Thanks ^^ I almost always choose Xin over him, for pretty much all your reasons. Thoughts on DFG-> Lichbane-> Deathcap? It would make him super bursty and maybe not so reliant on kill stealing to proc ult.
I really like Yi as a champ, and used to play him way more... but it just seems like he doesn't offer anything in the jungle that GP or Noc doesn't do much better, more reliably or safer.
I do want to try AP Yi + soraka bot lane sometime though...
Is the guide still up-to-date? I'd like to learn how to not suck as jungle Yi. if anyone would be willing to teach me the ropes later on tonight, i'd really appreciate it. i learn quickly/take criticism well and would love to get good with a jungle character. (i'm also leaning towards buying noc~)
The only thing he's good at is mobility, high attack speed, and backdoor
For one, he's incredibly squishy and has no CC whatsoever.
He's the true definition of pubstomper...noobs who don't CC him or build armor will continue to get raped by Yi. Good players will shut down Yi as he isn't very hard to kill.
I think Tyrn is a better champ for carrying and dishing out raw damage output...at least he has way more survivability. Noct is like a Yi plus a utility bag of tricks like fear, spell shield, darkness.
I think Tyrn or Noct existing just makes playing Yi meaningless.
On September 30 2011 07:06 Vei wrote: Is the guide still up-to-date? I'd like to learn how to not suck as jungle Yi. if anyone would be willing to teach me the ropes later on tonight, i'd really appreciate it. i learn quickly/take criticism well and would love to get good with a jungle character. (i'm also leaning towards buying noc~)
Learn a different jungler. You'll thank yourself for it later on. Nocturne is like Yi version 2.0, he does everything Yi does, except better. The one thing Noc doesn't have is the alluring "OMG if I kill 1 guy, then my cooldowns reset, and I can kill the next guy, and the next and get a penta a win"... which doesn't really happen in practice. Much better ult for ganking on Noc, has built in CC, built in sustain.
Either that or learn a jungle champ that doubles as a good top laner, like udyr. I hear Noc top lane also works though.
Long story short, getting Yi instead of Nocturne is like buying an Iphone 3 in a shop for $400, and then going to the shop next door to see them selling an Iphone 4 for $300.
On September 30 2011 07:06 Vei wrote: Is the guide still up-to-date? I'd like to learn how to not suck as jungle Yi. if anyone would be willing to teach me the ropes later on tonight, i'd really appreciate it. i learn quickly/take criticism well and would love to get good with a jungle character. (i'm also leaning towards buying noc~)
The guide is still generally correct. A few things I'd do differently/make note of:
- Flash is probably better than Ghost after the Ghost nerfs - I'd run 25 armor pen instead of attack speed on reds/quints, but this is personal preference (25 armor pen is better for damage midgame, and IIRC saves you 1 autoattack on small wraiths at level 1--making wraith jacks faster and safer) - Triforce is one of the better 2nd damage items to get--some people even prefer it to GB as a first damage item (I used to do this) - Minigol start is by no means set in stone. Yi is a flexible jungler, so he can start at quite a few different camps, and is hard to track because alpha procs make him so unpredictable
On September 30 2011 07:24 Dgiese wrote: Long story short, getting Yi instead of Nocturne is like buying an Iphone 3 in a shop for $400, and then going to the shop next door to see them selling an Iphone 4 for $300.
How is that comparison remotely valid when Yi is 450 IP and Nocturne is 6300? Hell, if you're learning to jungle for the first time, why would you blow 6300 IP on a champ you've never played to do so? In fact, looking at the 450/1350 IP champs, I'd say that Yi is probably one of the better junglers to learn on--Nunu, Amumu, FIddle, and Warwick might be better junglers overall, but their gameplay is much less similar to common top-pick junglers like Lee Sin or Nocturne than Yi's. Not to mention, Yi's drop-off lategame requires you to be successful in the early-game; playing Yi forces you to gank/counterjungle successfully because you can't fall back on a strong lategame if you screw up or play too passively early game.
Yi is by no means a good champion. But in the early phases of the game, his jungle control is very good, and there are a lot of things you can learn about jungling by playing Yi. For 450 IP, I'd say that he's a fun champ that's worth spending some time with.
Haha I always thought that might be the case -- he basically can only auto-attack so I wasn't sure how other people did so well with him (and when I did well it felt more lucky than a result of sick planning and skill) so thanks for the feedback... perhaps I will just buy Noct. His ult seems soooo strong for owning vs people who play even slightly greedily.
On September 30 2011 07:06 Vei wrote: Is the guide still up-to-date? I'd like to learn how to not suck as jungle Yi. if anyone would be willing to teach me the ropes later on tonight, i'd really appreciate it. i learn quickly/take criticism well and would love to get good with a jungle character. (i'm also leaning towards buying noc~)
The guide is still generally correct. A few things I'd do differently/make note of:
- Flash is probably better than Ghost after the Ghost nerfs - I'd run 25 armor pen instead of attack speed on reds/quints, but this is personal preference (25 armor pen is better for damage midgame, and IIRC saves you 1 autoattack on small wraiths at level 1--making wraith jacks faster and safer) - Triforce is one of the better 2nd damage items to get--some people even prefer it to GB as a first damage item (I used to do this) - Minigol start is by no means set in stone. Yi is a flexible jungler, so he can start at quite a few different camps, and is hard to track because alpha procs make him so unpredictable
On September 30 2011 07:24 Dgiese wrote: Long story short, getting Yi instead of Nocturne is like buying an Iphone 3 in a shop for $400, and then going to the shop next door to see them selling an Iphone 4 for $300.
How is that comparison remotely valid when Yi is 450 IP and Nocturne is 6300? Hell, if you're learning to jungle for the first time, why would you blow 6300 IP on a champ you've never played to do so? In fact, looking at the 450/1350 IP champs, I'd say that Yi is probably one of the better junglers to learn on--Nunu, Amumu, FIddle, and Warwick might be better junglers overall, but their gameplay is much less similar to common top-pick junglers like Lee Sin or Nocturne than Yi's. Not to mention, Yi's drop-off lategame requires you to be successful in the early-game; playing Yi forces you to gank/counterjungle successfully because you can't fall back on a strong lategame if you screw up or play too passively early game.
Yi is by no means a good champion. But in the early phases of the game, his jungle control is very good, and there are a lot of things you can learn about jungling by playing Yi. For 450 IP, I'd say that he's a fun champ that's worth spending some time with.
Didn't realise noc was 6300. Meh, I'm still of the opinion that even though there is such a large price difference buying Yi is essentially 450ip thrown away.
On October 01 2011 10:24 Dgiese wrote: Didn't realise noc was 6300. Meh, I'm still of the opinion that even though there is such a large price difference buying Yi is essentially 450ip thrown away.
The vast majority of champs in the game are "ip thrown away" if you consider fun champs that aren't that good to be wasted IP.
Master Yi is a hero who relies a lot on your enemy making misstakes, such as blowing their stunns and nukes on another hero b4 he shows up, his alfa strike is a realy strong move including not only teleport to your target but allso cc imunisation if timed correctly, but that is pretty much the end of him. his need to be in mele range and lack of any kind of cc, something almost every other mele fighter posesses makes anyone not realy out of position un-gankable if their flash or exhaust is up and since he is almost never a real threat without a razor thin, almost all AD or AP items build makes him a verry suceptible target for just beeing nuked at the start of any teamfight making it a almost instant 4v5
The only real way to avoid this is to either have him fed by the ennemy team, or them letting him freefarm early-on which can lead to him quickly becoming a huge threat. Yis main strength as I see him is that he is neigh un-catchable on ulti and/or ghost, and as such is a strong split-pusher and Backdooring hero and building a team that can defend or push on 4 can make him super-viable even if he didnt get fed
if you want to go for a teamfight composition I think almost any other AD champion will serve you better, and I recomend learning Udyr/Lee-sin/noct/gangplank/olaf if you wantto play a mele AD carries which can snowball realy hard, they are allso a more versitle picks not only bringing CCs but allso allowing for tankier builds, which is especialy usefull if you allready have a ranged AD
On October 01 2011 10:24 Dgiese wrote: Didn't realise noc was 6300. Meh, I'm still of the opinion that even though there is such a large price difference buying Yi is essentially 450ip thrown away.
The vast majority of champs in the game are "ip thrown away" if you consider fun champs that aren't that good to be wasted IP.
It's just my own perspective. When I play Yi I find myself thinking... why am I not just playing nocturne instead. That takes away from the fun I get from playing the character. I'm just a stickler for stuff like that. Same goes for other champs as well, I just don't get as much fun from playing a character that fills a certain role when there is another character that fulfills most of, if not all of that roles qualities better.
I mean, Yi is still fun, and as I mentioned earlier i think an ap yi + soraka lane would be fun. But that's something for dicking around in normals... and TBH there are other champs much higher on my 'fun but not good' list than yi.
On October 01 2011 10:24 Dgiese wrote: Didn't realise noc was 6300. Meh, I'm still of the opinion that even though there is such a large price difference buying Yi is essentially 450ip thrown away.
The vast majority of champs in the game are "ip thrown away" if you consider fun champs that aren't that good to be wasted IP.
It's just my own perspective. When I play Yi I find myself thinking... why am I not just playing nocturne instead. That takes away from the fun I get from playing the character. I'm just a stickler for stuff like that. Same goes for other champs as well, I just don't get as much fun from playing a character that fills a certain role when there is another character that fulfills most of, if not all of that roles qualities better.
I mean, Yi is still fun, and as I mentioned earlier i think an ap yi + soraka lane would be fun. But that's something for dicking around in normals... and TBH there are other champs much higher on my 'fun but not good' list than yi.
Don't worry, that doesn't make you a stickler, that's just bad design and balance and it's one of the reasons I started playing less and less of League of Legends until I basically stopped. Simply, because of the very generalized roles that are predetermined for champions you find that there are just some champions that fill those roles better than others, whether it be an extra escape mechanism, more damage output, more survivability. Since champions aren't built around individual niches, you may get stuck with a champion that you like, but ultimately isn't more useful than his peers in any specific situation.
Nocturne is fun, but Master Yi is just master Yi. His level 6 red buff ganks are fucking brutal, as he can wipe you in no time. Build a bit of survivability in there and he'll be cleaning up fights pretty handily. Sure Noc has spellshield, fear, and whatnot, but Yi has that sick cooldown reset if he kills someone, and if he's decently farmed he kills fast.
Never miss gap closer means ganking with Yi is pretty easy too. Plus if you ever find yourself in a pinch, just press R and run. Real fun.
Queuedodgethis did an amazing review of Master Yi, covered every aspect like they normally do. Without them, I wouldn't of known that master yi's blade turned blue o.o I was like wtf, because i played LoL on all low settings, put the effects to medium and it started turning blue, so cool. Does it turn blue when its E is charged? Because im not 100% sure, I always thought it turned blue when it was ready to do doublestrike.
On October 01 2011 18:35 RogerX wrote: Queuedodgethis did an amazing review of Master Yi, covered every aspect like they normally do. Without them, I wouldn't of known that master yi's blade turned blue o.o I was like wtf, because i played LoL on all low settings, put the effects to medium and it started turning blue, so cool. Does it turn blue when its E is charged? Because im not 100% sure, I always thought it turned blue when it was ready to do doublestrike.
On October 01 2011 16:56 Roffles wrote: Nocturne is fun, but Master Yi is just master Yi. His level 6 red buff ganks are fucking brutal, as he can wipe you in no time. Build a bit of survivability in there and he'll be cleaning up fights pretty handily. Sure Noc has spellshield, fear, and whatnot, but Yi has that sick cooldown reset if he kills someone, and if he's decently farmed he kills fast.
Never miss gap closer means ganking with Yi is pretty easy too. Plus if you ever find yourself in a pinch, just press R and run. Real fun.
Well in comparison to Noc... I'm of the opinion that Noc's level 6 red buff ganks are better than Yi's.
As for sick cooldown reset - yes. And that is the main drawcard for playing Yi (as I see it). For me though, it just doesn't outweigh the spellshield, ranged CC, and long range ult that Noc has got over Yi.
That being said, after Nunu got nerfed Yi was one of my main goto 'drunk' champions. That cooldown reset far too appealing when drunk
but in my experience that is more dependent on my enemies' sucking and not me playing particularly well, so yeah. farming IP for defense runes so i can jungle properly now x_X why did riot make jungling require such a huge IP investment ;;sigh marketing;;
On October 02 2011 08:31 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Yi is an awesome champ that has a niche in certain comps.
He has no real niche. Very few champions in League of Legends are actually made for a specific niche and even then, since the rest of the champions are so general role based, it's hard to satisfy a specific champion's niche to benefit the team.
Even in this "niche" that he fills, there are plenty of champions that are just flat out better at everything. Xin Zhao has more burst and that's really what you need for fights, pushing and backdoor power is so negligible in comparison unless you have a team that's built to hold a 5 v 4 defense in which case you'll still ultimately only succeed in creating a long-ass game where your opponents can turtle and you'll basically never really win if they have a solid line-up with sufficient CC.
Basically, at a high level you need the perfect team with perfect play to accomplish what another team could do by simply picking a less idiotic champion.
Yi can be a nuisance but he's never more of a threat than others champions within that role, even with over 300 games played as Yi, with games played while top 400 NA, I never found him more useful than any other champion at any point in the game. Particularly not long enough for it to actually make him a worthwhile pick.
This issue is not exclusive to Yi, he is one of the easier heroes to point this out for though. Generalized champion design creates this problem, establishing niches is difficult when many champions are filling a pretty established role.
That's why you jungle and play Yi. You just go "YEAHHH I JUST PROC'D ALL FOUR WRAITHS HNNNNNGH" and feel hella good about yourself and then when your top lane loses you get even more farm.
And then your team loses but you don't give a FUCK because you got
Is there a hybrid yi build that can be used to capitalize the early game lane dominance of APM yi while still being a threat lategame? Sort of like rhabadon-> hextech ->sheen etc. I'm trying to figure out such a build just for fun games. Any recommendations?
On October 03 2011 06:01 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: Is there a hybrid yi build that can be used to capitalize the early game lane dominance of APM yi while still being a threat lategame? Sort of like rhabadon-> hextech ->sheen etc. I'm trying to figure out such a build just for fun games. Any recommendations?
Just make straight dps items after your rabadons IMO. Gunblade can't be a wrong choice. After that I would make ghostblade or sth dunno.
anyway I have alot of fun with jungle yi atm. Allways thought that he is a crappy champ but I kinda randomly picked him a few games ago and suddenly realized some things.
The sheer damage this guy does is unmatched. The only thing you need is map awareness and to carefully watch what everyone does may that be in teamfights or where ppl are pushing etc. It then all comes down to exploit weaknesses.
You have to basicly be a spineless opportunist to be successfull with him.
On October 03 2011 06:01 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: Is there a hybrid yi build that can be used to capitalize the early game lane dominance of APM yi while still being a threat lategame? Sort of like rhabadon-> hextech ->sheen etc. I'm trying to figure out such a build just for fun games. Any recommendations?
Just make straight dps items after your rabadons IMO. Gunblade can't be a wrong choice. After that I would make ghostblade or sth dunno.
anyway I have alot of fun with jungle yi atm. Allways thought that he is a crappy champ but I kinda randomly picked him a few games ago and suddenly realized some things.
The sheer damage this guy does is unmatched. The only thing you need is map awareness and to carefully watch what everyone does may that be in teamfights or where ppl are pushing etc. It then all comes down to exploit weaknesses.
You have to basicly be a spineless opportunist to be successfull with him.
Haha I agree. Though I've been trying a sort of beefy AD build for the last couple of days and if u can get it going its really good. basically its ring-zerkers->atma->warmog->IE->mallet whatever. It does need a lot of farm to get going but then, what yi build doesn't. one thing in your favor is that with ur wuju style (which u max first) and attack speed bonus from ult, you still do decent enough damage till the time u get ur atmogs.
I'am not a fan yet of building him too tanky. I have the feel that I need wriggles, zerkers, ghostblade and zeal at the least. It's basicly a cheaper version of a ranged ad core build (the GB would be an IE) and after that I decide if I need banshees/qss/GA or more damage. I kinda think banshees is good on him despite being a melee, since I dont run into fights where AoE damage is still flying around. And yi is so fast that they almost certainly pop it with sth that is supposed to stop you. Anyways, maybe I could be keen of sth like wriggles, mercs, gb, zeal into warmogs/mallet atmas.
Oh and I max wuju too. I guess both, alpha and wuju have their profits, but I think that wuju style kinda defines Yi.
I <3 yi jungle. Finished 67% w/l last season 1450 with him and I'm 12-2 right now this season at 1450 again. I had the same w/l with noct last season and 5-1 this season.
I'm not a fan of ghostblade unless you get stupidly fed early. I find building frozen/atmas is a lot better. I normally go wrigglez (greaves if I can)/Phantom/Frozen/Atmas/Negatron (if there is more than 1 ap damage).
I just counter jungle early as my main objective, gank when a kill is available, and stick to objectives like towers/dragon/baron.
On October 03 2011 05:47 dnastyx wrote: That's why you jungle and play Yi. You just go "YEAHHH I JUST PROC'D ALL FOUR WRAITHS HNNNNNGH" and feel hella good about yourself and then when your top lane loses you get even more farm.
And then your team loses but you don't give a FUCK because you got
ALL DAT FARM
This is a pretty spot on description of playing drunk Yi.
If I'm pretty drunk I'll stick to jungle (where I don't have to waste time thinking about last hitting or harassing my enemy). I find it normally makes my ganks alot stronger.... maybe because I'm less indecisive, iunno. I swear though, counter jungling drunk nunu is the most fucking fun ever. I just love running around as a yeti fucking people's shit up.
But yeah, playing drunk is a bunch of fun, I highly recommend it. Works well on Yi aswell, because you can just play PvE all game. And still win while hanging your team out to dry.
On October 04 2011 04:45 Abenson wrote: AFK farm all game. If enemy team is stupid, you win. If enemy team is smart, you lose, but you can BM everyone with your positive score and farm
This basically sums up what happens with Master Yi at higher levels of play. If you have a really good team and set everything up perfectly in fights for Yi to come in and clean up when enemy CC is down after forcing perfect initiation and maximizing your damage output to get your opponents low enough you can sort of pull it off... Or you could just pick a champion that's actually useful and doesn't have a dud ability that goes against the rest of his skill-set.
There are actually a few ways to make meditate work if they really want to put it on Yi, I posted a couple on the League of Legends forums a while back and saw an idea or two from Shurelia as well. Ultimately, it seems everything was ditched because despite Yi being absolute rubbish at higher levels of play, he does fine against terrible players, and they don't want them to get owned harder. Whatever, it's Riot's approach to balancing and it's worked for them, just sucks for poor Yi.
I once met a guy with awesome hybrid whitch i use with great success. Its all about using ur q at lane to get hudge farm with proper runes and doran ring u can spam skills. In this build i get nashors tooth for ap cd reduction and some as then bet hextech gunblade trinity force atmas banshee. U end up with high dmg due to wuju style,atma gives you 40+ dmg and all items fit so well together. Ur q deal nice dmg up to 4 enemies hextech slow and deal dmg and what has left u kill with your autoattacks. And if enemy team dont have anything to stop your heal you are pretty mutch immortal. I have used thisin 5 games now and every game was great success
On October 04 2011 04:45 Abenson wrote: AFK farm all game. If enemy team is stupid, you win. If enemy team is smart, you lose, but you can BM everyone with your positive score and farm
This basically sums up what happens with Master Yi at higher levels of play. If you have a really good team and set everything up perfectly in fights for Yi to come in and clean up when enemy CC is down after forcing perfect initiation and maximizing your damage output to get your opponents low enough you can sort of pull it off... Or you could just pick a champion that's actually useful and doesn't have a dud ability that goes against the rest of his skill-set.
There are actually a few ways to make meditate work if they really want to put it on Yi, I posted a couple on the League of Legends forums a while back and saw an idea or two from Shurelia as well. Ultimately, it seems everything was ditched because despite Yi being absolute rubbish at higher levels of play, he does fine against terrible players, and they don't want them to get owned harder. Whatever, it's Riot's approach to balancing and it's worked for them, just sucks for poor Yi.
I think if you pick him into a fitting composition he might work well. Like another splitpusher top (singed comes to mind) a strong burst ap mid (annie/brand/anivia/gragas/sion) and then a bruiser+babysitter (some combo that provides enough CC such as janna+sth or taric+sth). So you splitpush with your two bruisers and clean up with your burst ap+yi.
A possibility might be to pick an ap carry/mage with him that has to be stunned like katarina/akali/malzahar/galio.
There's a buttload of reasons why Yi can be better than either of those champions. Hell you can justify slotting Yi over Nocturne in certain comps. Don't underestimate the jungle Yi.
On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote: No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
Except if you find him fun to play! :D
He is insanely fun to play especially when you start snowballing after successful ganks. Zipping around with his ult is just so much fun, and alpha striking a clump of low hp champs for double/triple kills with one ability ^_^b
On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote: No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
xin and trynd arent as fast and do not deal as much damage as yi.
Yi's speed is kind of set back by Meditate which requires him to stand still, there is really no in-combat situation where it's useful and outside of combat the healing isn't that great unless you're running him AP. So basically, that leaves him with three effective skills. Trynd and Xin have much more survivability and Yi doesn't actually deal more damage in most scenarios, the overall value of his complete ultimate duration is negligible in most situations, unless he's doing clean-up.
On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote: No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter.
I don't really see why having a sortof useless ability is such a big deal. Cait, for example, will almost completely stop using her Q after a certain point in the game.
As for the yi vs trynd discussion, saintvicious once said in his stream that he thinks yi is just utterly better than trynd (trynd is garbage, he said) if only for the sole reason that trynd gets raped by exhaust and yi doesn't.
On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote: No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter.
This isn't true, at higher levels of play it becomes apparent that Yi is sub-par, Xin is better for quite obvious reasons, he has a built in slow and a knock-up in addition to a much faster gap closer and better burst potential, in addition to his cooldown reducing ability allowing for multiple chains of his combo. Yi's main advantage in comparison is his ability to farm with Alpha Strike which is irrelevant if you're putting him in the jungle anyways, clearing it slightly faster doesn't really mean all that much for him and good players can farm fairly well with both champions.
It's not just relevant at competitive play though that's where it's painfully apparent, playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao. Yi lacks any kind of CC and has poor survivability mixed in with a skill that is counter-productive to his entire purpose.
The main issue with Yi is meditate and while it is resolvable, Riot seems to be fine with Yi's rubbish design because he's still usable at low level play where him being entirely eclipsed by other champions doesn't matter too much.
On October 05 2011 08:55 Mordiford wrote: This isn't true, at higher levels of play it becomes apparent that Yi is sub-par, Xin is better for quite obvious reasons, he has a built in slow and a knock-up in addition to a much faster gap closer and better burst potential, in addition to his cooldown reducing ability allowing for multiple chains of his combo. Yi's main advantage in comparison is his ability to farm with Alpha Strike which is irrelevant if you're putting him in the jungle anyways, clearing it slightly faster doesn't really mean all that much for him and good players can farm fairly well with both champions.
What?
Alpha Strike is one of the most insane jungling skills in the game. It makes Yi almost impossible to counterjungle effectively because of his absurdly unpredictable camp timings, gives him the means to steal small camps extremely effectively, and presents the threat of Alpha->Smite steals on buffs, Dragon, and Baron.
Compare this to Xin who has comparatively poor baseline jungling speed, and very few jungle control tools. He might have a better kit lategame, but Xin is outmatched early game by Yi's flexibility as a jungler, whereas Xin is forced to play a defensive, gank-oriented jungle.
On October 05 2011 08:55 Mordiford wrote: This isn't true, at higher levels of play it becomes apparent that Yi is sub-par, Xin is better for quite obvious reasons, he has a built in slow and a knock-up in addition to a much faster gap closer and better burst potential, in addition to his cooldown reducing ability allowing for multiple chains of his combo. Yi's main advantage in comparison is his ability to farm with Alpha Strike which is irrelevant if you're putting him in the jungle anyways, clearing it slightly faster doesn't really mean all that much for him and good players can farm fairly well with both champions.
What?
Alpha Strike is one of the most insane jungling skills in the game. It makes Yi almost impossible to counterjungle effectively because of his absurdly unpredictable camp timings, gives him the means to steal small camps extremely effectively, and presents the threat of Alpha->Smite steals on buffs, Dragon, and Baron.
Irrelevant for farming advantage when jungling, in a lane, Alpha Strike allows Yi some additional early game farm, in the jungle any bonus farm he attains is negligible with Alpha Strike. An Alpha-->Smite steal on Dragon or Baron would be just as possible with just a simple effective Smite timing, unless you're hoping for additional damage to proc in which case the other team can take this into consideration as well, it's really no more effective for stealing Dragon or Nashor than any other champion with smite, it comes down to timing regardless.
If you're going to try and steal small camps using Alpha Strike past the really early game, you're taking a massive risk if the opposing team is packing wards or otherwise attentive. It's doable, but it relies on a proc which early on is hit or miss.
On October 05 2011 09:11 Mordiford wrote: Irrelevant for farming advantage when jungling, in a lane, Alpha Strike allows Yi some additional early game farm, in the jungle any bonus farm he attains is negligible with Alpha Strike. An Alpha-->Smite steal on Dragon or Baron would be just as possible with just a simple effective Smite timing, unless you're hoping for additional damage to proc in which case the other team can take this into consideration as well, it's really no more effective for stealing Dragon or Nashor than any other champion with smite, it comes down to timing regardless.
1) It's not irrelevant for farm. Being impossible to counterjungle makes your early-game far more stable. Yi is hard for even Nunu to counterjungle effectively--whereas even Amumu can effectively steal camps from Xin Zhao simply based on the speed differential in their jungling.
2) You can time the Alpha and Smite to do damage simultaneously, compared to the enemy jungler who has to react to the Alpha visual. Much more reliable for you. Having an additional smite-like to last-hit buffs/Dragon/Baron has always indisputably been an advantage when contesting those objectives--hence why it contributes to the strength of Nunu and Lee Sin as junglers.
On October 05 2011 09:11 Mordiford wrote: Irrelevant for farming advantage when jungling, in a lane, Alpha Strike allows Yi some additional early game farm, in the jungle any bonus farm he attains is negligible with Alpha Strike. An Alpha-->Smite steal on Dragon or Baron would be just as possible with just a simple effective Smite timing, unless you're hoping for additional damage to proc in which case the other team can take this into consideration as well, it's really no more effective for stealing Dragon or Nashor than any other champion with smite, it comes down to timing regardless.
1) It's not irrelevant for farm. Being impossible to counterjungle makes your early-game far more stable. Yi is hard for even Nunu to counterjungle effectively--whereas even Amumu can effectively steal camps from Xin Zhao simply based on the speed differential in their jungling.
2) You can time the Alpha and Smite to do damage simultaneously, compared to the enemy jungler who has to react to the Alpha visual. Much more reliable for you. Having an additional smite-like to last-hit buffs/Dragon/Baron has always indisputably been an advantage when contesting those objectives--hence why it contributes to the strength of Nunu and Lee Sin as junglers.
1) Has some merit, but his jungling being slightly erratic does not make him impossible to counter-gank. With clairvoyance, which everyone fucking has, it becomes quite easy to keep tabs on Yi provided you're even kind of attentive.
2) Once again, that's reliant on a proc where other champions have equally comparable nukes and if you base your smite timing on the expected proc, you're gambling. If you base your smite timing on the regular nuke, it's not better than any other jungler using their nuke and smiting simultaneously.
On October 05 2011 09:11 Mordiford wrote: Irrelevant for farming advantage when jungling, in a lane, Alpha Strike allows Yi some additional early game farm, in the jungle any bonus farm he attains is negligible with Alpha Strike. An Alpha-->Smite steal on Dragon or Baron would be just as possible with just a simple effective Smite timing, unless you're hoping for additional damage to proc in which case the other team can take this into consideration as well, it's really no more effective for stealing Dragon or Nashor than any other champion with smite, it comes down to timing regardless.
1) It's not irrelevant for farm. Being impossible to counterjungle makes your early-game far more stable. Yi is hard for even Nunu to counterjungle effectively--whereas even Amumu can effectively steal camps from Xin Zhao simply based on the speed differential in their jungling.
2) You can time the Alpha and Smite to do damage simultaneously, compared to the enemy jungler who has to react to the Alpha visual. Much more reliable for you. Having an additional smite-like to last-hit buffs/Dragon/Baron has always indisputably been an advantage when contesting those objectives--hence why it contributes to the strength of Nunu and Lee Sin as junglers.
1) Has some merit, but his jungling being slightly erratic does not make him impossible to counter-gank. With clairvoyance, which everyone fucking has, it becomes quite easy to keep tabs on Yi provided you're even kind of attentive.
2) Once again, that's reliant on a proc where other champions have equally comparable nukes and if you base your smite timing on the expected proc, you're gambling. If you base your smite timing on the regular nuke, it's not better than any other jungler using their nuke and smiting simultaneously.
1) counterjungling is not something static or simply countered by keeping track of the jungler. With such fast junglers you can clear half the jungle of your opponent if he ganks on the other side of the map and still clear your own stuff until he can react to it. Saying that vision is good to keep track of a jungler doesnt make his jungle speed any weaker. It is actually way riskier and harder to stop a fast counterjungler from stealing than to stop a ganker from killing.
On October 05 2011 09:11 Mordiford wrote: Irrelevant for farming advantage when jungling, in a lane, Alpha Strike allows Yi some additional early game farm, in the jungle any bonus farm he attains is negligible with Alpha Strike. An Alpha-->Smite steal on Dragon or Baron would be just as possible with just a simple effective Smite timing, unless you're hoping for additional damage to proc in which case the other team can take this into consideration as well, it's really no more effective for stealing Dragon or Nashor than any other champion with smite, it comes down to timing regardless.
1) It's not irrelevant for farm. Being impossible to counterjungle makes your early-game far more stable. Yi is hard for even Nunu to counterjungle effectively--whereas even Amumu can effectively steal camps from Xin Zhao simply based on the speed differential in their jungling.
2) You can time the Alpha and Smite to do damage simultaneously, compared to the enemy jungler who has to react to the Alpha visual. Much more reliable for you. Having an additional smite-like to last-hit buffs/Dragon/Baron has always indisputably been an advantage when contesting those objectives--hence why it contributes to the strength of Nunu and Lee Sin as junglers.
1) Has some merit, but his jungling being slightly erratic does not make him impossible to counter-gank. With clairvoyance, which everyone fucking has, it becomes quite easy to keep tabs on Yi provided you're even kind of attentive.
2) Once again, that's reliant on a proc where other champions have equally comparable nukes and if you base your smite timing on the expected proc, you're gambling. If you base your smite timing on the regular nuke, it's not better than any other jungler using their nuke and smiting simultaneously.
1) counterjungling is not something static or simply countered by keeping track of the jungler. With such fast junglers you can clear half the jungle of your opponent if he ganks on the other side of the map and still clear your own stuff until he can react to it. Saying that vision is good to keep track of a jungler doesnt make his jungle speed any weaker. It is actually way riskier and harder to stop a fast counterjungler from stealing than to stop a ganker from killing.
I already established that stealing with Yi is incredibly risky because it relies on his proc and early game the percentage is fairly low. Once more, it being harder to stop him from counter-jungling is no more difficult than it is for comparable champions.
I already conceded that Yi being difficult to counter-jungle has some merit but it's nowhere near enough to make him worthwhile and even if you compare that on a 1-to-1 with Xin to pull Yi ahead, that was never really my point, he's still eclipsed in that department by other champions who are still by and large more useful than he is, his jungling speed does not ultimately have a major impact on the game over other champions in the role.
He's not reliant at all on his alpha strike procs to counter jungle. He still has that absurd AD steroid in the form of Wuju Style that just tears through Wraiths and Golems (not to mention wolves). Starting at level 4, Yi can just AA the camps and still counterjungle at a fast pace. The procs from Alpha Strike just put the nail in the coffin.
Like 5HIT mentioned, Yi has room to perform on certain teamcomps. I believe we can theorycraft behind that. I believe the best way to play a jungle Yi would be to put constant pressure on the enemy jungler. That can be achieved in the form of having a roamer putting pressure on lanes/lanes pushing hard. With this setup, the enemy jungler can't just farm his camps and must leave the jungle - leaving his camps exposed to you. Once you get a decent level advantage over him, you can bully him around with the roamer and force some engagements.
On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote: No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter.
playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao.
You play at a high level? Welcome to the forums, we have a lot of respect for the highly skilled players who post here. What's your summoner name?
On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote: No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter.
playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao.
You play at a high level? Welcome to the forums, we have a lot of respect for the highly skilled players who post here. What's your summoner name?
My summoner name is Mordiford, I haven't played in over 8 months and likely won't be returning to seriously playing League of Legends which is why I don't often post on the boards because I'm not that up to date with all the new champions and their effect on the meta-game. I have no problem talking about Yi though, since I had over 350 games played with him and from what I've seen, he is largely unchanged and I feel based on the design of meditate will always be suffering from a near-useless skill when paired with the rest of his skill-set.
On October 05 2011 11:25 necrosed wrote: He's not reliant at all on his alpha strike procs to counter jungle. He still has that absurd AD steroid in the form of Wuju Style that just tears through Wraiths and Golems (not to mention wolves). Starting at level 4, Yi can just AA the camps and still counterjungle at a fast pace. The procs from Alpha Strike just put the nail in the coffin.
Like 5HIT mentioned, Yi has room to perform on certain teamcomps. I believe we can theorycraft behind that. I believe the best way to play a jungle Yi would be to put constant pressure on the enemy jungler. That can be achieved in the form of having a roamer putting pressure on lanes/lanes pushing hard. With this setup, the enemy jungler can't just farm his camps and must leave the jungle - leaving his camps exposed to you. Once you get a decent level advantage over him, you can bully him around with the roamer and force some engagements.
I absolutely agree that he has his place on some compositions and his counter-jungling can be effective in the early stages of the game, though I do feel that you're overrating the effectiveness of Wuju Style. I don't see him as effective at all as a solo queue champion because he needs a set team composition with superb play from allies to succeed, this is what I touched on earlier as well. It's not even a case of the risk of putting him into your composition outweighing the rewards, it's a flat out case of him not being as useful as other champions who are less risky and can be just as, if not more rewarding to have on your team.
Well, I agree that playing like I said requires a lot of coordination (as I was thinking about premades), but Yi is a champion that really benefits from the stupidity and lack of coordination from the enemy team, so I think he is a fine solo Q champion as well.
On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote: No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter.
playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao.
You play at a high level? Welcome to the forums, we have a lot of respect for the highly skilled players who post here. What's your summoner name?
My summoner name is Mordiford, I haven't played in over 8 months and likely won't be returning to seriously playing League of Legends which is why I don't often post on the boards because I'm not that up to date with all the new champions and their effect on the meta-game. I have no problem talking about Yi though, since I had over 350 games played with him and from what I've seen, he is largely unchanged and I feel based on the design of meditate will always be suffering from a near-useless skill when paired with the rest of his skill-set.
On October 05 2011 11:25 necrosed wrote: He's not reliant at all on his alpha strike procs to counter jungle. He still has that absurd AD steroid in the form of Wuju Style that just tears through Wraiths and Golems (not to mention wolves). Starting at level 4, Yi can just AA the camps and still counterjungle at a fast pace. The procs from Alpha Strike just put the nail in the coffin.
Like 5HIT mentioned, Yi has room to perform on certain teamcomps. I believe we can theorycraft behind that. I believe the best way to play a jungle Yi would be to put constant pressure on the enemy jungler. That can be achieved in the form of having a roamer putting pressure on lanes/lanes pushing hard. With this setup, the enemy jungler can't just farm his camps and must leave the jungle - leaving his camps exposed to you. Once you get a decent level advantage over him, you can bully him around with the roamer and force some engagements.
I absolutely agree that he has his place on some compositions and his counter-jungling can be effective in the early stages of the game, though I do feel that you're overrating the effectiveness of Wuju Style. I don't see him as effective at all as a solo queue champion because he needs a set team composition with superb play from allies to succeed, this is what I touched on earlier as well. It's not even a case of the risk of putting him into your composition outweighing the rewards, it's a flat out case of him not being as useful as other champions who are less risky and can be just as, if not more rewarding to have on your team.
I was top 200 NA at one point and I was playing Yi at the time. Dan Dinh is arguably one of the top 5 junglers in NA and he used to main Yi. While I agree he's not the top jungler in the game, he snowballs very hard and is absolutely insane if fed. He also has the strongest backdoor out of any jungler including Shaco. Yi wins matchups against teams that are bad against defending backdoors, are low on cc, or have to frequently leave their lanes. He counterjungles like a boss and is unpredictable in terms of damage output in teamfights, similar to Kat.
The real reason you think Yi is bad is because teams in solo q don't know how to play with a Yi jungler.
On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote: No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter.
playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao.
You play at a high level? Welcome to the forums, we have a lot of respect for the highly skilled players who post here. What's your summoner name?
My summoner name is Mordiford, I haven't played in over 8 months and likely won't be returning to seriously playing League of Legends which is why I don't often post on the boards because I'm not that up to date with all the new champions and their effect on the meta-game. I have no problem talking about Yi though, since I had over 350 games played with him and from what I've seen, he is largely unchanged and I feel based on the design of meditate will always be suffering from a near-useless skill when paired with the rest of his skill-set.
On October 05 2011 11:25 necrosed wrote: He's not reliant at all on his alpha strike procs to counter jungle. He still has that absurd AD steroid in the form of Wuju Style that just tears through Wraiths and Golems (not to mention wolves). Starting at level 4, Yi can just AA the camps and still counterjungle at a fast pace. The procs from Alpha Strike just put the nail in the coffin.
Like 5HIT mentioned, Yi has room to perform on certain teamcomps. I believe we can theorycraft behind that. I believe the best way to play a jungle Yi would be to put constant pressure on the enemy jungler. That can be achieved in the form of having a roamer putting pressure on lanes/lanes pushing hard. With this setup, the enemy jungler can't just farm his camps and must leave the jungle - leaving his camps exposed to you. Once you get a decent level advantage over him, you can bully him around with the roamer and force some engagements.
I absolutely agree that he has his place on some compositions and his counter-jungling can be effective in the early stages of the game, though I do feel that you're overrating the effectiveness of Wuju Style. I don't see him as effective at all as a solo queue champion because he needs a set team composition with superb play from allies to succeed, this is what I touched on earlier as well. It's not even a case of the risk of putting him into your composition outweighing the rewards, it's a flat out case of him not being as useful as other champions who are less risky and can be just as, if not more rewarding to have on your team.
I was top 200 NA at one point and I was playing Yi at the time. Dan Dinh is arguably one of the top 5 junglers in NA and he used to main Yi. While I agree he's not the top jungler in the game, he snowballs very hard and is absolutely insane if fed. He also has the strongest backdoor out of any jungler including Shaco. Yi wins matchups against teams that are bad against defending backdoors, are low on cc, or have to frequently leave their lanes. He counterjungles like a boss and is unpredictable in terms of damage output in teamfights, similar to Kat.
The real reason you think Yi is bad is because teams in solo q don't know how to play with a Yi jungler.
I played Master Yi while top 400 NA, I did so with arranged teams as well with some success but his flaws would become painfully obvious against teams that knew what they were doing. Once you have your team set up to coordinate perfectly, it comes down to your opponents fucking up at higher levels of play, you can't force anything with Yi like you can with some other champions, you're entirely reliant on your opponents and that doesn't work when your opponents are good.
On October 04 2011 22:31 DiracMonopole wrote: No matter your team comp, I cant really think of a reason to take yi over xin zhao or tryndamere.
I can't think of a single reason to take jungle trynd or xin over yi... lol. Actually... xin has a strong level two gank. That's about it. All these heroes are more than viable in solo queue. If you're playing competitively sure they look weak, but you aren't and neither are we so what are you talking about? It's silly, if you are better you will win with off jungles like yi or trynd or the top junglers like lee sin/noct/gp/udyr etc, it doesn't matter.
playing at higher levels I would get tons of shit for picking Yi which would not happen for picks such as Xin Zhao.
You play at a high level? Welcome to the forums, we have a lot of respect for the highly skilled players who post here. What's your summoner name?
My summoner name is Mordiford, I haven't played in over 8 months and likely won't be returning to seriously playing League of Legends which is why I don't often post on the boards because I'm not that up to date with all the new champions and their effect on the meta-game. I have no problem talking about Yi though, since I had over 350 games played with him and from what I've seen, he is largely unchanged and I feel based on the design of meditate will always be suffering from a near-useless skill when paired with the rest of his skill-set.
On October 05 2011 11:25 necrosed wrote: He's not reliant at all on his alpha strike procs to counter jungle. He still has that absurd AD steroid in the form of Wuju Style that just tears through Wraiths and Golems (not to mention wolves). Starting at level 4, Yi can just AA the camps and still counterjungle at a fast pace. The procs from Alpha Strike just put the nail in the coffin.
Like 5HIT mentioned, Yi has room to perform on certain teamcomps. I believe we can theorycraft behind that. I believe the best way to play a jungle Yi would be to put constant pressure on the enemy jungler. That can be achieved in the form of having a roamer putting pressure on lanes/lanes pushing hard. With this setup, the enemy jungler can't just farm his camps and must leave the jungle - leaving his camps exposed to you. Once you get a decent level advantage over him, you can bully him around with the roamer and force some engagements.
I absolutely agree that he has his place on some compositions and his counter-jungling can be effective in the early stages of the game, though I do feel that you're overrating the effectiveness of Wuju Style. I don't see him as effective at all as a solo queue champion because he needs a set team composition with superb play from allies to succeed, this is what I touched on earlier as well. It's not even a case of the risk of putting him into your composition outweighing the rewards, it's a flat out case of him not being as useful as other champions who are less risky and can be just as, if not more rewarding to have on your team.
I was top 200 NA at one point and I was playing Yi at the time. Dan Dinh is arguably one of the top 5 junglers in NA and he used to main Yi. While I agree he's not the top jungler in the game, he snowballs very hard and is absolutely insane if fed. He also has the strongest backdoor out of any jungler including Shaco. Yi wins matchups against teams that are bad against defending backdoors, are low on cc, or have to frequently leave their lanes. He counterjungles like a boss and is unpredictable in terms of damage output in teamfights, similar to Kat.
The real reason you think Yi is bad is because teams in solo q don't know how to play with a Yi jungler.
I played Master Yi while top 400 NA, I did so with arranged teams as well with some success but his flaws would become painfully obvious against teams that knew what they were doing. Once you have your team set up to coordinate perfectly, it comes down to your opponents fucking up at higher levels of play, you can't force anything with Yi like you can with some other champions, you're entirely reliant on your opponents and that doesn't work when your opponents are good.
That's just what my experience has been.
It ALWAYS comes down to your opponents fucking up at high levels of play.
Like I was saying though, Yi's not unplayable, and I'm not arguing that he's godlike either, he's just a jungler you don't see often in high elo like shaco/ezreal/gragas.
what can you guys say about building starks and cleaver out of the jungle with yi? youll have like mercs, wriggles, starks, cleaver + defensive item. both items are not costly and you can help your ranged carry to mow down their bruiser (because of the +65armorreduction and attackspeed aura). Its also not a too specialized build since both starks and cleaver reduce armor (not penetrate) so you also hit squishies real hard. Also kinda makes sense to build something cheaper comming out of the jungle and its waaaaaay safter to hit the bruiser with yi than try to assassinate a carry. bruiser goes down real fast. tested it vs udyr and cho so far.
The real problem with that isn't so much that it's a bad item choice but rather it's pretty much straight outclassed by ghostblade, which is like everything master yi wants in one item.
On October 06 2011 11:32 necrosed wrote: Well, damage done is not a very good stat specially on AP Yi, since most of his damage is done to creeps.
I know, but I was still doing a shitton more damage than anyone else on my team. (At the end of this 45 minute game, nunu was level 14, renekton was just selling doran blades 4 and 5 and I dont remember what everyone else was doing)
On October 06 2011 09:22 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: The real problem with that isn't so much that it's a bad item choice but rather it's pretty much straight outclassed by ghostblade, which is like everything master yi wants in one item.
ye I'am aware of the power of ghostblade. Just that buying ghostblade+sth has a completely different purpose. I mean with starks and cleaver you and your ranged carry will kill their bruiser so fast. I'ts a terribly cheap build also. I've tried it and it worked a couple times and it was amazing how fast you can kill udyr/singed/chogath with this. If you would try the same thing with GB+sth then you'll have lesser results because the synergy inst there. You dont need additional MS to kill that bruiser and you dont need burst damage. To kill a farmed atmogs/what ever tank you need a fuckton of armpen. Also it is soooo safe and easy to help your carry kill their bruiser and snowball from this kill/assist compared to trying to run after their carry from the get go.
50 AS (active), 20 ArmPen, 30 damage, 15 crit, 20 MS (active), 15 cdr
All those items cost about the same.
Starks really doesnt look that bad here. Looking at these stats I dont feel like I'am buying something overpriced. I'ts easyer to compare it to PD since both items give permanent bonuses. Damage wise you compare 20 ArmRed to 15 AS and 30 crit. 20 ArmRed is worth a 10-20% damage increase depending on your total armpen+armred compared to his armor. The PD wins on purely that I must say, but I dont feel gimped looking at having the aura bonuses and the high HP regen through the flat amount and the lifesteal and the additional damage PD does is not huge or something. I'ts a slight advantage, while Starks also sustains you and has like insane aura bonuses.
Ghostblade in the other hand surely wins on the burst front. But Iam pretty sure that your overall damage is a bit higher with the other items. Ghostblade is for hunting carries and killing turrets faster. This is not what I want at this point with my build. I want to safely kill their bruiser alongside my carry and snowball out of it because of highlander. (iam not saying that I wouldnt build ghostblade with this build at some point. I'ts just not core)
So I hope I explained my thoughts well enough. So what do you think? buy starks+cleaver (after wriggles+shoes) and helping kill tanks?
Don't forget that you're jungling, so your gold income won't be very high (especially against teams that know what they're doing). So you'll have to buy cost-effective items. Turns out that Brutalizer and Youmuu's are two of the most cost-effective items in the game, and you can buy them relatively fast. (Last Whisper is also very cost effective if the medium enemy armor is 100+). So buying Starks + Cleaver means you'll have to dish a ton of gold on expensive core items (Bow, Best-Friend Sword), meaning you'll will be very innefective while you don't have them built. Don't forget that, being a jungler, you'll most likely have to spend some gold in wards and possibily an oracle's. You have also invested already on boots (zerker's, please) and Wriggles. Avarice and Brutalizer are relatively cheap (750 vs 1050, 1337 vs 1650) and can be bought by small pieces (Brawler's, Longswords). It doesn't matter if the end game your Starks + BC may look better (which I doubt it, too. The crits and extra speed from Youmuus are from out of this world), we're realistic speaking about having one less item than the Youmuu's building Yi and killing people/creeps/towers slower than the youmuu's one in the long run.
If, however, you aren't jungling, just go IE-PD-LW, please.
you missed the whole point of my post it seems. also for last whisper to be more effective than cleaver on top of the arpen you allready have from starks(or gb) + runes the tank has to have like 200 armor at this point. Also it only increases your own arpen.
On October 06 2011 23:28 clickrush wrote: you missed the whole point of my post it seems. also for last whisper to be more effective than cleaver on top of the arpen you allready have from starks(or gb) + runes the tank has to have like 200 armor at this point. Also it only increases your own arpen.
The point is that you are simply noobstomping. There's absolutely no freaking way you can go into a game expecting to farm a BF sword from the jungle unless you are simply playing against people who feed you nonstop. Ghostblade is good because all of its parts are cheap. You recall with 800 or 900 gold and you actually buy a couple of long sword or avarice blade and that is actually reasonable.
You are proposing a build with around 8k gold in core items for a jungle character, so no, it's not a good build. After ghostblade, the natural thing to do after that is to tank up or build even more backdoor centric, neither of which you need black cleaver for.
Btw, Flash + Smite or Ghost + Smite? I'm in a struggle choosing between the two. I generally do Ghost on melee champions, but he does have highlander and (most of the time) ghostblade.
Flash. Flash. Flash. That way you can actually counterjungle with a decent chance of escaping and you can rambo in, W when you get focussed and flash out randomly when it gets too much etc.
Also ghostblade+highlander = nuff movespeed.
On another sidenote, I don't know why noone talks about Triforce. Whenever I'm like "Damn, Ghostblade would make me too squishy but Atmogs would take too long" - I get triforce. Works like a charm. <3
Triforce yi very legit as well, but it's considerably weaker than ghostblade yi if you are getting red buff and up until the point where you actually finish triforce.
ghost is better for counterjungling (timings) for early ganks and for autoattack dps when highlander is not up. Also better for backdooring/solo pushing since you get there faster with flash and dont have to waste your steroids for it. Then ghost is also better if your splitpushing when they try to corner you.
flash is a more reliable escape for ganks and teamclashes. also good for burst champs that are cooldown reliant (flash out. come back in with CDs) and I dont think yi is one of them. Flash is also there to counter some of the initiation tools/skillshots.
both flash and ghost are situationally better for chasing, depedning on terrain, skills and summoers of your opponent.
I pick flash over ghost anytime on yi because it gives him a better early game. For example you can do nasty counterjungle timings with and its generally a better escape/chase tool in small scale scirmishes.
On October 07 2011 00:22 necrosed wrote: Btw, Flash + Smite or Ghost + Smite? I'm in a struggle choosing between the two. I generally do Ghost on melee champions, but he does have highlander and (most of the time) ghostblade.
When smurfing, Exhaust + Smite yi is basically autowin. Gets you free kills so easily and them pissy mages blow their combo on you while exhausted so you live and then they die.
On October 07 2011 02:12 Juicyfruit wrote: When smurfing, Exhaust + Smite yi is basically autowin. Gets you free kills so easily and them pissy mages blow their combo on you while exhausted so you live and then they die.
exhaust smite, you have built in ghost and you can blink to people, not to mention ghostblade active... he's not lacking in mobility. I'd rather even run smite ignite for ballsier assassination and snowballing in fights than ghost/flash.
On October 07 2011 02:12 Juicyfruit wrote: When smurfing, Exhaust + Smite yi is basically autowin. Gets you free kills so easily and them pissy mages blow their combo on you while exhausted so you live and then they die.
That's a terrible fucking build, posting picks of you winning normal games with decent scores doesn't really mean much. If that build can consistently work at higher Elo ranked games, then it'd be worth considering but it looks like it's a massive waste of attack speed when your ult is factored in, and with diminishing returns on movement speed it's likely a massive waste there as well.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
On October 07 2011 02:12 Juicyfruit wrote: When smurfing, Exhaust + Smite yi is basically autowin. Gets you free kills so easily and them pissy mages blow their combo on you while exhausted so you live and then they die.
That's a terrible fucking build, posting picks of you winning normal games with decent scores doesn't really mean much. If that build can consistently work at higher Elo ranked games, then it'd be worth considering but it looks like it's a massive waste of attack speed when your ult is factored in, and with diminishing returns on movement speed it's likely a massive waste there as well.
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
This is exactly why we know you're not qualified to talk about this game on a pro level. You can't tell when someone posting a full zeal build is joking.
Full zeal build is pro when the following conditions are met:
Your team is all squishies You don't need attack damage You consider high elo to be 1000 Opponents only buy wards when they misclick in the vendor window The enemy team won't focus you because the tank has more health
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
This is exactly why we know you're not qualified to talk about this game on a pro level. You can't tell when someone posting a full zeal build is joking.
Because people never actually do stupid builds right? And they never happen to work right? And then you never see idiots doing shit that doesn't remotely make sense, right? Oh... Yeah...
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
The revive is seriously OP shit too
Revive/Smite used to be a popular build on Eve at one point, I assumed someone tried to port it to Yi. My bad.
On October 08 2011 00:13 STS17 wrote: Full zeal build is pro when the following conditions are met:
Your team is all squishies You don't need attack damage You consider high elo to be 1000 Opponents only buy wards when they misclick in the vendor window The enemy team won't focus you because the tank has more health
1. Usually there is an offtank every game 2. I purchase x-man claws -> lantern, giving me plenty of survivability (lifesteal and armor) and damage, also wuju style 3. I am ~1350 elo, and I am terrible at this game 4. Other team has lantern too, lantern = ward 5. I have too much ms to get focused
There isn't anything theoretically wrong with Revive Smite on a backdooring jungler. Revive allows you to split push like a boss without screwing over your team by getting caught because you can stand back up and get back into the teamfight so your opponent's can't press an advantage 5v4.
The movespeed buff will allow you to get immediately into a fight or back to backdooring if you do get caught and killed.
Are there better options? That's subject to interpretation and playstyle really, but it is generally accepted that there are.
However, if you are playing Jungle Yi with the exclusive goal of PvE -> Split Pushing / Backdooring, then summoners which help you in teamfights are going to lose value to you, which leaves Ghost, Flash (somewhat, but not really) Teleport, and Revive. Each has its advantages and disadvantages and effects your playstyle in different ways. As long as your team is okay with being in a 4v5 situation all day while you split push and back door at every opportunity I see Revive as a potentially more viable option to Ghost, and possibly even Teleport.
Given Yi's naturally high movespeed, itemization choices, and Highlander, it's extremely implausible for him to be caught if the enemy team only sends a single champion to stop him, assuming that Yi has the most basic form of map awareness and has warded appropriately. If the other team sends more than one champion to stop yi that is still a victory, because now your team is in a 4v3 or better situation and can force a fight, claim an objective, or just start taking towers on the other side of the map. In all of these situations, Ghost doesn't really provide anything your kit and itemization options can't provide.
Teleport can be used to get you there instantly but the usefulness of this is relative to how well you counter-ward and how high your MS is from items. In other words, getting there immediately has the benefit of the other team not being able to see you move there, but to be truly useful requires a minion wave to be near the tower in the first place, which is likely a warning enough that someone needs to go clear that wave to begin with so there is a possibility that the other team has already or is already planning to send someone to that lane. Counterwarding / clearing their wards not only helps your ability to escape (harder to follow you when they can't see you) but should be being done anyways and using teleport bypasses that completely whereas running there manually it can be done at the same time.
Revive lets you recover from a mistake, should you make one. The movespeed benefit lets you immediately (well, almost immediately) return to a lane to push it or to get your ass to a teamfight that your opponents are trying to take advantage of the recent kill. In the late game it can be used to help stop an enemy push if they win a teamfight by not sticking you with a long ass death timer and if you choose to master it, the extra health provides a not insignificant boost to durability in the teamfight or split push for a reasonable duration.
Is it the number 1 pick? Probably not. Is it completely non-viable? Again, probably not.
On October 08 2011 00:50 STS17 wrote: There isn't anything theoretically wrong with Revive Smite on a backdooring jungler. Revive allows you to split push like a boss without screwing over your team by getting caught because you can stand back up and get back into the teamfight so your opponent's can't press an advantage 5v4.
The movespeed buff will allow you to get immediately into a fight or back to backdooring if you do get caught and killed.
Are there better options? That's subject to interpretation and playstyle really, but it is generally accepted that there are.
However, if you are playing Jungle Yi with the exclusive goal of PvE -> Split Pushing / Backdooring, then summoners which help you in teamfights are going to lose value to you, which leaves Ghost, Flash (somewhat, but not really) Teleport, and Revive. Each has its advantages and disadvantages and effects your playstyle in different ways. As long as your team is okay with being in a 4v5 situation all day while you split push and back door at every opportunity I see Revive as a potentially more viable option to Ghost, and possibly even Teleport.
Given Yi's naturally high movespeed, itemization choices, and Highlander, it's extremely implausible for him to be caught if the enemy team only sends a single champion to stop him, assuming that Yi has the most basic form of map awareness and has warded appropriately. If the other team sends more than one champion to stop yi that is still a victory, because now your team is in a 4v3 or better situation and can force a fight, claim an objective, or just start taking towers on the other side of the map. In all of these situations, Ghost doesn't really provide anything your kit and itemization options can't provide.
Teleport can be used to get you there instantly but the usefulness of this is relative to how well you counter-ward and how high your MS is from items. In other words, getting there immediately has the benefit of the other team not being able to see you move there, but to be truly useful requires a minion wave to be near the tower in the first place, which is likely a warning enough that someone needs to go clear that wave to begin with so there is a possibility that the other team has already or is already planning to send someone to that lane. Counterwarding / clearing their wards not only helps your ability to escape (harder to follow you when they can't see you) but should be being done anyways and using teleport bypasses that completely whereas running there manually it can be done at the same time.
Revive lets you recover from a mistake, should you make one. The movespeed benefit lets you immediately (well, almost immediately) return to a lane to push it or to get your ass to a teamfight that your opponents are trying to take advantage of the recent kill. In the late game it can be used to help stop an enemy push if they win a teamfight by not sticking you with a long ass death timer and if you choose to master it, the extra health provides a not insignificant boost to durability in the teamfight or split push for a reasonable duration.
Is it the number 1 pick? Probably not. Is it completely non-viable? Again, probably not.
The other problem with revive: If you have a perfect game, you can't use it (I still think suiciding at a tower at level 1 for the 400 health bonus isn't a bad idea)
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
This is exactly why we know you're not qualified to talk about this game on a pro level. You can't tell when someone posting a full zeal build is joking.
Because people never actually do stupid builds right? And they never happen to work right? And then you never see idiots doing shit that doesn't remotely make sense, right? Oh... Yeah...
Yeah but you don't have the game sense to differentiate between a stupid build and a troll build. I'm not saying anything about the build being good or bad, I'm just saying you don't have the experience to be able to identify the fact that he was joking about his horrible build.
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
The revive is seriously OP shit too
Revive/Smite used to be a popular build on Eve at one point, I assumed someone tried to port it to Yi. My bad.
Again, you have no clue why revive smite was used on eve. It was a part of her jungle path to die to red buff and come back with revive to finish out her path and gank at lv 4 with revive buff.
On October 07 2011 02:12 Juicyfruit wrote: When smurfing, Exhaust + Smite yi is basically autowin. Gets you free kills so easily and them pissy mages blow their combo on you while exhausted so you live and then they die.
That's a terrible fucking build, posting picks of you winning normal games with decent scores doesn't really mean much. If that build can consistently work at higher Elo ranked games, then it'd be worth considering but it looks like it's a massive waste of attack speed when your ult is factored in, and with diminishing returns on movement speed it's likely a massive waste there as well.
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
This is exactly why we know you're not qualified to talk about this game on a pro level. You can't tell when someone posting a full zeal build is joking.
Because people never actually do stupid builds right? And they never happen to work right? And then you never see idiots doing shit that doesn't remotely make sense, right? Oh... Yeah...
Yeah but you don't have the game sense to differentiate between a stupid build and a troll build. I'm not saying anything about the build being good or bad, I'm just saying you don't have the experience to be able to identify the fact that he was joking about his horrible build.
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
The revive is seriously OP shit too
Revive/Smite used to be a popular build on Eve at one point, I assumed someone tried to port it to Yi. My bad.
Again, you have no clue why revive smite was used on eve. It was a part of her jungle path to die to red buff and come back with revive to finish out her path and gank at lv 4 with revive buff.
I have no knowledge about the poster and whether he genuinely thinks that the build is good or whether he is just trolling. Have you never run into someone who uses a retarded build that they think is good?
Also, what makes you think I didn't know that was how revive was used on Eve? Nothing I say suggests anything about how the build was used on Eve, only that it was used.
Successful troll, but people do dumb shit in-game.
On October 08 2011 00:50 STS17 wrote: There isn't anything theoretically wrong with Revive Smite on a backdooring jungler. Revive allows you to split push like a boss without screwing over your team by getting caught because you can stand back up and get back into the teamfight so your opponent's can't press an advantage 5v4.
The movespeed buff will allow you to get immediately into a fight or back to backdooring if you do get caught and killed.
Are there better options? That's subject to interpretation and playstyle really, but it is generally accepted that there are.
However, if you are playing Jungle Yi with the exclusive goal of PvE -> Split Pushing / Backdooring, then summoners which help you in teamfights are going to lose value to you, which leaves Ghost, Flash (somewhat, but not really) Teleport, and Revive. Each has its advantages and disadvantages and effects your playstyle in different ways. As long as your team is okay with being in a 4v5 situation all day while you split push and back door at every opportunity I see Revive as a potentially more viable option to Ghost, and possibly even Teleport.
Given Yi's naturally high movespeed, itemization choices, and Highlander, it's extremely implausible for him to be caught if the enemy team only sends a single champion to stop him, assuming that Yi has the most basic form of map awareness and has warded appropriately. If the other team sends more than one champion to stop yi that is still a victory, because now your team is in a 4v3 or better situation and can force a fight, claim an objective, or just start taking towers on the other side of the map. In all of these situations, Ghost doesn't really provide anything your kit and itemization options can't provide.
Teleport can be used to get you there instantly but the usefulness of this is relative to how well you counter-ward and how high your MS is from items. In other words, getting there immediately has the benefit of the other team not being able to see you move there, but to be truly useful requires a minion wave to be near the tower in the first place, which is likely a warning enough that someone needs to go clear that wave to begin with so there is a possibility that the other team has already or is already planning to send someone to that lane. Counterwarding / clearing their wards not only helps your ability to escape (harder to follow you when they can't see you) but should be being done anyways and using teleport bypasses that completely whereas running there manually it can be done at the same time.
Revive lets you recover from a mistake, should you make one. The movespeed benefit lets you immediately (well, almost immediately) return to a lane to push it or to get your ass to a teamfight that your opponents are trying to take advantage of the recent kill. In the late game it can be used to help stop an enemy push if they win a teamfight by not sticking you with a long ass death timer and if you choose to master it, the extra health provides a not insignificant boost to durability in the teamfight or split push for a reasonable duration.
Is it the number 1 pick? Probably not. Is it completely non-viable? Again, probably not.
The other problem with revive: If you have a perfect game, you can't use it (I still think suiciding at a tower at level 1 for the 400 health bonus isn't a bad idea)
Here's the problem with your logic:
If you have a perfect game it doesn't fucking matter if you can't use revive because you've fucking won. :p :p :p
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
This is exactly why we know you're not qualified to talk about this game on a pro level. You can't tell when someone posting a full zeal build is joking.
Because people never actually do stupid builds right? And they never happen to work right? And then you never see idiots doing shit that doesn't remotely make sense, right? Oh... Yeah...
Yeah but you don't have the game sense to differentiate between a stupid build and a troll build. I'm not saying anything about the build being good or bad, I'm just saying you don't have the experience to be able to identify the fact that he was joking about his horrible build.
On October 08 2011 00:03 101toss wrote:
On October 07 2011 23:49 Mordiford wrote:
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
The revive is seriously OP shit too
Revive/Smite used to be a popular build on Eve at one point, I assumed someone tried to port it to Yi. My bad.
Again, you have no clue why revive smite was used on eve. It was a part of her jungle path to die to red buff and come back with revive to finish out her path and gank at lv 4 with revive buff.
I have no knowledge about the poster and whether he genuinely thinks that the build is good or whether he is just trolling. Have you never run into someone who uses a retarded build that they think is good?
Also, what makes you think I didn't know that was how revive was used on Eve? Nothing I say suggests anything about how the build was used on Eve, only that it was used.
Successful troll, but people do dumb shit in-game.
I think the build is really pro because when I am done, I have 11 swords (4 doubleswords + katena + 2 swordboots). My opponents usually just surrender because I have so many swords
On October 08 2011 00:50 STS17 wrote: There isn't anything theoretically wrong with Revive Smite on a backdooring jungler. Revive allows you to split push like a boss without screwing over your team by getting caught because you can stand back up and get back into the teamfight so your opponent's can't press an advantage 5v4.
I might add that the best backdooring spell is probably HEAL. How do you split push? Simple, you need to be able to beat people 1 vs 1 so they have to send two to deal with you. How do you do that? Simple, you run heal. I can't tell you how many times I have baited people with my smite / heal yi and then gotten a free tower off it. Is it viable? Yes. Is it optimal? I dunno... maybe.
On October 07 2011 23:18 necrosed wrote: I believe he was joking, Mordi.
I personally go for the glass cannon build: Zerkers Wriggles Ghostblade Pickaxe Zeal LW/PD, Blootthirster/IE depending on how well fed I'm. Once you reach that crazy build, any misstep from your enemy means a huge swing in momentum in your favor. There's always that menace of you acing and taking 2-3 towers inhibitors and nexus.
Can't tell whose serious these days, because I've seen mass PDs attempted on numerous champions.
Generally the best way to start of is to go for Wriggles/ Ghostblade/ Zeal/ Starks/ Start Frozen mallet if too squishy/ PD/ Banshee's if problematic CC/ IE.
Why do you need zeal or starks or frozen mallet or pd or banshees?
On October 08 2011 00:50 STS17 wrote: There isn't anything theoretically wrong with Revive Smite on a backdooring jungler. Revive allows you to split push like a boss without screwing over your team by getting caught because you can stand back up and get back into the teamfight so your opponent's can't press an advantage 5v4.
I might add that the best backdooring spell is probably HEAL. How do you split push? Simple, you need to be able to beat people 1 vs 1 so they have to send two to deal with you. How do you do that? Simple, you run heal. I can't tell you how many times I have baited people with my smite / heal yi and then gotten a free tower off it. Is it viable? Yes. Is it optimal? I dunno... maybe.
Heal is underrated, I run it on regen-tanks fairly regularly. The issue I have with heal is the same I have with Ghost and Teleport which is your team is greatly punished by your mistakes. By wandering around on your own (often on the other side of the map) an accidental death on your part can cost your team the game. Revive helps prevent that by assuring you're there in the teamfight your opponents are likely trying to force after killing you.
Who still plays the dunkmaster? Triforce Yi is ridiculous fun. He rolls through teams like an autoattacking Katarina (but he also cries when people interrupt him). And screw jungling, I go top like a boss.
Dunking is a completely legitimate build, if only for the sheer farming power of moving between lanes in like 10 seconds, getting some sick frags on clearing the jungle in between destinations, pushing to the turret, then running away at 750 movespeed.
I guess a slightly more sane build would grab Ghostblade and sub Wriggles for a BT at some point. Still have over 600 movespeed and max attack speed with your Ult, dunk towers even faster.
On February 07 2012 00:32 ManyCookies wrote: Double Strike.
I c wut u did thar.
Ah I enjoy playing Lane Yi a lot lately.
Will deffo have to use dunkmaster yi tomorrow (hmmm 2:36am... possible time to go dunking. Or sleep decisions) - I've never actually done it yet but been aware of it for a while. Such troll build but fun =D Also Best champ thread.
I recently played as Orianna vs an ap Yi, and it was a really tough lane. His Q could bounce off minions to hit me and his meditate made it so that I couldn't get him to low health. I managed to kill him while he killed me with some good engages, but still, it felt like there was no way I could beat him. Was I doing something wrong or is it just up to my jungler to help kill him early?
Orianna has really good auto attacks. Early levels you can just demolish him thru right clicks. He's melee, you're ranged. When is Q is on Cd then you have absolutely nothing to be afraid of from him early levels, just walk up to him and attack him.
That being said, AP YI is a favorite for many smurf players, so you might have run into someone who knows how to play, but was just messing around with you.
Depending on how you want to play it, wolves (or wraith jack) -> blue -> your jungle / their red (depending on their jungler) or wraiths -> red -> gank.
It's pretty easy in the new jungle for anybody, so take a look at your lanes in champ select, decide how effective a lvl 2 red gank will be (Does one of your lanes have a stun?). If a lvl 2 red gank doesn't seem effective, then go for a different start.
Wraith jack -> blue and wolves blue depend on what kind of team you have, and what kind of pull you can expect to get.
Q procs also makes things weird. With wraith jack _> blue sometimes you will Q proc the big wraith, sometimes you need to smite it to be safe. If this occurs, you'll need a good pull on your blue, consider if you can rely on a good pull from your team before attempting a wraith jack (just as a back up plan).
The farm the jungle path would probably be wolves > blue > wraiths > red > golems > wraiths > wolves > b. I dont think boots 3 Yi could do it without lucky Q procs, but dorans blade yi, vamp sceptre yi should be ok (try in a custom game first though). If it doesnt work out just go wraiths > golems > red / b / wraiths / wolves
On February 25 2012 10:55 ultimatenewb wrote: AP Yi =)
Just a head up, if you're goign to start posting on these forums you'll want to type out posts that have some real content. Something like "ap yi =)" is going to get you warnings etc, but something like "I also really like playing AP Yi heres how I do it: ..." Or "I love AP Yi, thanks for the guide, it's helped me improve at AP YI".
Yi beats bots really hard. I have to try him as a top laner sometime. Like you kill one bot, then you use ER, kill another, continue the cycle. All he really needs to do this is some MR and lifesteal but I went for the all damage ghostblade route. Never seen anyone own bots so hard.
On February 25 2012 13:54 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Yi beats bots really hard. I have to try him as a top laner sometime. Like you kill one bot, then you use ER, kill another, continue the cycle. All he really needs to do this is some MR and lifesteal but I went for the all damage ghostblade route. Never seen anyone own bots so hard.
hehe dont use E after you kill someone with ult. It actually decreases your dps.
Wuju style gives huge damage bonus when its active, and when its CD is refreshed you get also the passive bonus. So its 1.5 times the passive together.
When you reactivate E, you will lose the passive bonus damage.
On February 26 2012 07:02 STYDawn wrote: Whats the new jungle build? been using the final yi build but that feels a bit out of date
Depends on the game, but things like wriggles, wits, ghostblade are nice. Atmogs is also nice, but I dunno, I just don't really like it that much on Yi.
Depends on what your team needs you to do really. Splitpushing? itemize attack speed. Gonna be in team fights? Work out your role: Is it to soak up a bit of damage? Atmogs. Is it to come in and clean up? itemize more for damage.
Early game you're tossing up between wriggles or dorans blade stacking. And I feel like wits and brutalizer are also pretty core on him. Afte rthat just evaluate whether you need more damage, or whether you need to survive longer. Oh and Triforce is pretty good on Yi, but in usual games, its an unaffordable luxury.
AP Yi is actually... quite strong. His Alpha Strike is a great harass tool, and his Meditate has an absolutely ludicrious 400% AP scaling (and the base is actually about 30% more than the tooltip says). With 35 AP at level 1 mediate, you heal 320 health. His mana costs aren't that bad either; I rarely find myself below half mana. His pushing power is really strong after a few levels in Alpha Strike, especially with Highlander, and is somewhat tempered before then. He beats/outlanes a rather large amount of mids (including Morgana, surprisingly). Late game, he can push down towers nearly as fast as his AD counterpart, though can't really split push.
The main issue I've had is teamfighting and non-laning 1v1; if he can jump in when someone is low, he can immediately start chaining Alpha Strikes for a huge amount of damage. However, this either means that Yi has to wait until someone is close to death to engage, or his team has to reliably take out two champions, both without the upfront damage of an AP carry (though the latter can get one Alpha Strike in). Hence his team needs to be on board with that idea. He has an even harder time 1v1ing someone, even with DFG or Lich Bane.
AP Yi feels like a lesser version of AP Trist. Team fighting presents a problem like you said before. Early laning, I feel like he's easily countered by any champion with a CC that can break his Meditate.
Chain Alpha Strikes make or break AP Yi it feels like. :< I'd rather just auto people to death with insane AS/MS if I'm Yi, but that's just me.
Edit: his split pushing is on par with AD Yi but his backdooring is much worse. You need Lich Bane if you plan on BD'ing.
Oh I don't use it while they're attacking me. Use it in-between minion waves, or just hold back for a few seconds at a safe-ish distance.
The main problem about his backdooring, unlike AD Yi, is that he can't really 1v1 most people. He needs a teamfight to be really effective.
If nothing else, he has the Swain Effect going for him. People don't see too many "serious" AP Yi (i.e not a pre-30 game) and underestimate just how much of a bully he can be. Which is the main advantage of AP Yi over AD.
On March 06 2012 09:46 ManyCookies wrote: Oh I don't use it while they're attacking me. Use it in-between minion waves, or just hold back for a few seconds at a safe-ish distance.
The main problem about his backdooring, unlike AD Yi, is that he can't really 1v1 most people. He needs a teamfight to be really effective.
Well, getting to use Meditate to absorb enemy spells is a highlight for AP Yi. You take hits but still net positive health.
Playing against champions like LeBlanc or Sion, they deny you that option because their combo will break Meditate and they have the range to poke you while you try to heal in safety.
On March 06 2012 09:46 ManyCookies wrote: Oh I don't use it while they're attacking me. Use it in-between minion waves, or just hold back for a few seconds at a safe-ish distance.
The main problem about his backdooring, unlike AD Yi, is that he can't really 1v1 most people. He needs a teamfight to be really effective.
Well, getting to use Meditate to absorb enemy spells is a highlight for AP Yi. You take hits but still net positive health.
Playing against champions like LeBlanc or Sion, they deny you that option because their combo will break Meditate and they have the range to poke you while you try to heal in safety.
You can just head out of their sight and heal a bit.
AP yi's a lane bully for sure. So are AP sion and AP nunu. So it's a good thing that they all fall off as hard as an anvil through air. They're all situationally good, but they lack large bursts of damage late game.
Sion loses his shield to AD focus (though his flash combo still works when he's fed and he targets someone squishy). He basically only has two useful skills and his tankiness late game is overrated.
Nunu can rarely ever get his R off, and his E starts to not hurt, but he can still slow an AD's attack speed by 25% . He also builds frozen heart more often that the other two so he's more useful for his team at slowing enemy attack speed. And he can buff his AD's attack and movement speed. I still don't think this is enough to justify having him over a bruiser or mid.
Yi does well when he chains alphas, or the enemy team for some reason attacks him while he's healing. He also has two useful skills.
I find it's very hard to get kills in lane as AP nunu or yi. Sion has an easier time getting fed. I have an easy time staying a bit behind yi and nunu in top lane as kayle. I also feel more useful than them later on. I haven't faced sion but I feel like he'd be the same.
Just looking at the champ list, some other lane bullies are vlad, taric, raka, yorick, shen, riven, and warwick. Basically anyone with free or large amounts of undeniable sustain that they like to get. I find the original 3 I went in detail about to be the more annoying AP bullies.
Ughh I just played against an AP yi while running teleport on free week viktor mid while I was smurfing. I hate losing to bots so I want a few wins to get my smurf elo to just the right level where I can carry well enough to just beat the bots. It was annoying though. He clears much faster than me and if I'm in range, then he can easily alpha strike a minion and hit me for basically free damage. Very mana efficient too. I just couldn't stay in lane. We ended up winning but I gave up a kill in lane by being greedy and wanting to use up my mana before heading back and died one more time to him after my tower was down. AP yi was 7-0 to start with but did barely anything later on. I think with kayle I was more comfortable staying at tower and just put wards down. Also I'd never run out of mana so I only needed to chug health pots. That was annoying.
I then upgraded every item (phage -> FM, Hex -> MoM) and it actually worked pretty well. Going in and attacking with Yi and waiting for the CC to be over, then pressing W makes you very resilient and you do a shit ton of damage.
On August 10 2012 01:51 greggy wrote: Max E? How does that work? I've not played for a while but doesn't it only add 5 damage (10 on active) per level?
10 damage is like a free longsword, is kinda how I think about it
How does it work? It gives you 35 free AD doubled to 70 when you activate it and you spend most of your time auto attacking? In team fights as long as someone dies when you have your ult up you get free 70 AD over and over again as well as a billion MS and AS. You need survivability on Yi since he gets so much for free. Free AD, MS and AS on top of a gap closer. Once you have Phage no one is getting away.
That makes sense. And it also explains why froggen rushed GA on yi recently (greaves, vamp, GA).
You never really notice how big of a deal defensive stats are until you start jungling yi. He takes so much damage from the camps. He has a heal but it's still hard to stay capped iirc.
On August 10 2012 02:16 Bladeorade wrote: How does it work? It gives you 35 free AD doubled to 70 when you activate it and you spend most of your time auto attacking? In team fights as long as someone dies when you have your ult up you get free 70 AD over and over again as well as a billion MS and AS. You need survivability on Yi since he gets so much for free. Free AD, MS and AS on top of a gap closer. Once you have Phage no one is getting away.
Note that the passive will reactivate on a refresh, but the active will still remain for its full duration. This means that if you kill someone you can have 105 bonus AD.
On August 10 2012 02:16 Bladeorade wrote: How does it work? It gives you 35 free AD doubled to 70 when you activate it and you spend most of your time auto attacking? In team fights as long as someone dies when you have your ult up you get free 70 AD over and over again as well as a billion MS and AS. You need survivability on Yi since he gets so much for free. Free AD, MS and AS on top of a gap closer. Once you have Phage no one is getting away.
Note that the passive will reactivate on a refresh, but the active will still remain for its full duration. This means that if you kill someone you can have 105 bonus AD.
Just make sure you don't hit the active again: Activating Wuju Style a second time, after the cooldown has been refreshed by Highlander, actually results in a decrease in damage, as it again removes the passive buff.
On August 10 2012 02:16 Bladeorade wrote: How does it work? It gives you 35 free AD doubled to 70 when you activate it and you spend most of your time auto attacking? In team fights as long as someone dies when you have your ult up you get free 70 AD over and over again as well as a billion MS and AS. You need survivability on Yi since he gets so much for free. Free AD, MS and AS on top of a gap closer. Once you have Phage no one is getting away.
Note that the passive will reactivate on a refresh, but the active will still remain for its full duration. This means that if you kill someone you can have 105 bonus AD.
Oh what? really? I have to test this out. So it does. I didn't believe someone the first time I heard it because he sounded like a dick but using E after your reset actually does reduce AD.
I just tried a game as a more tanky jungle yi. Wriggles, mercs, phage, GA, IE, working towards PD. I did the least damage on my team but somehow went 5-1 in early game fights and got their soraka to quit -> we win. I died once giving nasus a double kill under his tower later on though. That was just a bad initiate by darius. Overall I went 9-4 in a closer game than it should have been. All game was just teemo split pushing, and darius pretending he has teemo's move quick and mushroom wall and doing the same. Ezrael kept dcing in a storm. In fights we were always outnumbered. We could have won way earlier if we had grouped but we just dicked around and made up for our mistakes with 950+ free gold every 6 minutes.
The thing is his ganks weren't that frightening with the lack of cc. Your allies always expect you to do more damage than you do. And people like talon will focus you even with phage's life, wriggle's armor, and GA's armor. His heal is really unreliable. If you use it you get silenced out of it. If you run away and use it, the team fight's over. If you don't use it for a long time, you die.
I'd have to try it some more, as well as other builds to gauge the strength of the build, but I'm not a dedicated yi player. Someone else who mains yi and has tried all sorts of builds can probably say what's best.
On August 10 2012 07:59 obesechicken13 wrote: That makes sense. And it also explains why froggen rushed GA on yi recently (greaves, vamp, GA).
You never really notice how big of a deal defensive stats are until you start jungling yi. He takes so much damage from the camps. He has a heal but it's still hard to stay capped iirc.
you never notice how little damage you do when you get a ga before any damage either.
You should be playing Yi as a cleanup hero imo anyway, after cc's been blown you run in and shit on peoples faces
On August 10 2012 07:59 obesechicken13 wrote: That makes sense. And it also explains why froggen rushed GA on yi recently (greaves, vamp, GA).
You never really notice how big of a deal defensive stats are until you start jungling yi. He takes so much damage from the camps. He has a heal but it's still hard to stay capped iirc.
you never notice how little damage you do when you get a ga before any damage either.
You should be playing Yi as a cleanup hero imo anyway, after cc's been blown you run in and shit on peoples faces
False? I dont think you understand how much yi gets for free. Just play him like shyvana with exhaust smite rush wriggles then phage for cc then aegis for tankiness mercs somewhere and hex for mr instead of wits
On August 10 2012 07:59 obesechicken13 wrote: That makes sense. And it also explains why froggen rushed GA on yi recently (greaves, vamp, GA).
You never really notice how big of a deal defensive stats are until you start jungling yi. He takes so much damage from the camps. He has a heal but it's still hard to stay capped iirc.
you never notice how little damage you do when you get a ga before any damage either.
You should be playing Yi as a cleanup hero imo anyway, after cc's been blown you run in and shit on peoples faces
False? I dont think you understand how much yi gets for free. Just play him like shyvana with exhaust smite rush wriggles then phage for cc then aegis for tankiness mercs somewhere and hex for mr instead of wits
The first part of what I said was entirely relevant to what he said I am aware the build I suggested is not ga first. Yi does in fact do damage with ga first though.
I don't really know if GA is best. I'd never get it before merc treads and phage though. Since Yi has a lot of Aspd from his ult, and AD from his activated E, I'm not really sure if he needs anything other than crit damage and crit strike chance to hit hard. I don't really play yi though so I'll leave the theory to those that do.
Playing AP yi makes me realize that he doesn't have much to say in a 1v1. I usually depend on the fear that a R produces when they see me rushing against them and dashing away. Whats a good way to build AP on yi? So far I've been stacking Rabadons Deathcap, buy they are expensive as hell. Deathfire Grasp - ok when they have full health, but I'm not gonna kill a full health anything without Lich Bane. And even then it's trouble. Poking, pushing lanes and farming hard. Is it viable to switch to AD after a certain amount of time? Once Alpha Strike is around 400ap - maybe it's good to build an infinity edge, phantom dancer and frozen mallet? To the testing labs!
You want straight AP with a secondary emphasis on enough tankiness to live one cooldown of alphastrike. Double dorans dcap for lane damage and easy farming of wolves/wraiths into hourglass/voidstaff second. Between farming jungle camps and mid lane farm, it's not that hard to get farm. You have to rely on your teammates to do damage though because master yi excels at hurting everyone a bit, not hurting one person a lot. The idea is to essentially alpha strike near the beginning of the fight, pop hourglass/meditate to make it through the first burst of damage/cc and then ulti+ alphastrike -> alphastrike -> alphastrike to clean up teamfights.
You aren't realistically going to do too much in lane apart from randomly hitting someone with alphastrike. 1v1 isn't yi's strong point.
You never want to switch into AD from AP, that's a huge waste of money and you never want to go the other way around either. If you're AP, you have no arpen, no AD masteries which constitutes a pretty massive chunk of your damage. Terrible idea.
Dcap+mercs/sorcs+void+hourglass+lichbane+(rylais/abyssal/dfg) is generally the best endgame build you can do on AP yi, there's no point to getting and AD on him.
Honestly, AP Yi gets a HUGE benefit with a lich bane. Yi loves movespeed, and with sheen procced by every single one of his abilities he has quite a bit of 1v1 potential
How does the abyssal/alpha strike interaction work? Does the aura remain 600 radius from Yi's starting point until the animation is over, does it move with Yi, or does it go to where Yi will end up (this doesn't seems likely because the spell checks if the initial target died)?
One trick to do as AP yi, once your passive is charged, Alpha onto the enemy, activate wuju style in flight and then use the auto. Whilst you're not going to 100 to 0 someone, it does do a massive amount of burst damage and puts the fear in them if they dont really know what they're up against in an AP yi
On December 01 2012 01:05 Crownlol wrote: Uh, so, I was watching on my phone, but what build was that Yi pentakill in the M5 game yesterday?
So I think I'm going to go take a break from AD Yi. it's not that I'm doing bad as him. I win most of my games. But this was disheartening.
I don't understand. I built some damage. Wits end and phage later on. I had about as much invested in offence as Lee Sin. That Alistar was a shittalking jungler and had less gold than me and only a sunfire for offence. How the hell do they all do more damage than me?
This is what all of my damage charts look like. And of course people are gonna say "lol, noob you play Yi as a janitor". Not that simple. How in the hell does Ali do more damage than me? To Champions? I know these stats are often bugged... but is it not counting Yi's autoattacks? What the hell is going on?
Why does twitch do more damage even though he relies on autos too? This is BS. I'm convinced I'm winning in spite of Yi, not because of him.
On January 01 2013 11:01 Terranasaur wrote: So what's the basic rundown of AP Yi? Like. TLDR version?
Be an unkillable asshole in lane who wastes the junglers time and kills the enemy if they get too low from your harass. Then try to get resets in teamfights.
Most yi's start with a lot of AP from runes and and amp tome. That by itself is enough sustain since your W has a crazy ratio. The more AP you have the faster you can clear the wave. Yi is one of the fastest clearers in the game. There's also a radius you can hit the enemy champion while clearing the wave but I don't know it. After that you can rush deathfire/deathcap/lichbane/zhonyas then go towards voidstaff.
On January 09 2013 09:41 krndandaman wrote: what is the best way of beating ap master yi? (I'm level 16 first account normal games) my 1500 elo friend says its pretty easy but the team has to be coordinated. I just followed his advice and built MR items such as abyssal scepter and banshee's veil. I didn't feed but every time I play vs an AP yi my whole team gets wrecked and I am helpless because I'm teemo. Granted I am teemo, but is AP yi seriously that much of a noob killer? it's so frustrating and I it's beyond me why my whole team has to build MR items just because of 1 champ that isn't even an AP carry.
Play AP Yi a few times. Your friend is pretty much right. If you can prevent Yi from getting a reset or AoEing your team down he's not that strong late game.
I don't get what you mean by AP Yi's not an AP carry.
Also don't waste your time trying to hit through his 300armor/mr shield heal.
Yeah and you really can't beat him in lane and if you somehow push the wave when he backs, and go gank, you'll probably lose your tower. It sucks.
On January 09 2013 10:02 GolemMadness wrote: What do you guys think about jungle AP yi? Is it feasible, or do you not get enough farm for it to really work?
I don't think you'd have enough damage to kill big camps in a reasonable amount of time.
You can do it if you go "hybrid" by getting a madreds first and try it out but I suspect Yi needs AP to get that first reset.
So with the increased gold in jungle, I've been doing AD jungle Yi with a pretty good amount of success. I go 9/21/0 masteries, attack speed marks, armor seals, magic/level glyphs, movement speed quints. Items are madreds razor/avarice blade/beserkers greaves/warmogs/atma's impaler/infinity edge/situational items.
I actually feel pretty rich when I do this (for a jungler). I'm averaging about 13k gold per game, and it's not that's reliant upon getting kills (although my dragon control has been pretty strong, so maybe 12k gold without dragon dominance).
Also I max e before q... am I crazy? I feel like max q first actually kind of sucks, because you only get to use it once every 10 seconds at max rank, and before then its a lot longer. Once you get on top of someone with red buff, you don't really need to use it again (unless they flash away, but they're probably going to get away anyways)? And once you get highlander your speed lets you stay on top of them pretty easily. I suppose max q let's you farm faster and have a higher burst if you get a reset, but it costs 100 mana per cast at level 5. And with madreds, its not like you clear slowly.
On January 09 2013 09:41 krndandaman wrote: what is the best way of beating ap master yi? (I'm level 16 first account normal games) my 1500 elo friend says its pretty easy but the team has to be coordinated. I just followed his advice and built MR items such as abyssal scepter and banshee's veil. I didn't feed but every time I play vs an AP yi my whole team gets wrecked and I am helpless because I'm teemo. Granted I am teemo, but is AP yi seriously that much of a noob killer? it's so frustrating and I it's beyond me why my whole team has to build MR items just because of 1 champ that isn't even an AP carry.
Play AP Yi a few times. Your friend is pretty much right. If you can prevent Yi from getting a reset or AoEing your team down he's not that strong late game.
I don't get what you mean by AP Yi's not an AP carry.
Also don't waste your time trying to hit through his 300armor/mr shield heal.
Yeah and you really can't beat him in lane and if you somehow push the wave when he backs, and go gank, you'll probably lose your tower. It sucks.
sigh it's so annoying because I feel that at noob levels there is barely any team coordination if at all and a half decent ap master yi can single handedly win the game by getting fed to insane levels.
It has a lot more to do with the fact that at low levels, yi will have probably 2-3x the farm of anybody else. And also, without a jungle, barring serious misplays only a couple of picks can even threaten yi. The combination of free farm and squishy, under farmed enemies makes up yi lethal at low levels. Just a phase of the game you need to live through.
probably the best combo i've found w/ Yi is w/ Amumu and Miss Fortune. That wombo-combo does so much damage that it'll usually get every1 low enough to be sweeped by alpha strike.
Hm... got my Swain counterpicked by a Yi, and didn't really care since post-6 he would never be able to kill me, all I had to do was let him Q the wave while standing far, take cs from the tower, etc. and then 5 times in a row he casts Q, I run away from the wave, his Q hits the 3 melee minions then instead of hoping to the nearest caster minion it hops to me, who is farther than them. My thoughts were that he lucked them out and, well, it damaged me faster than my pots could so at one point he all-ined me and flashed for the kill, then later told me that Alpha Strike is supposed to prioritise champions.
It's the first time I hear it and I double-checked the wiki to make sure it didn't change since the last time I read it, and there's nothing like it mentioned. Is it true? If so, are there specifications as to how it prioritise (since it should have targeted me as the 2nd occurrence, not the 4th) and thus specific ways to avoid it? Sounds strange.
(I didn't want to stay in, eat it, and answer with EQ+autos since he has meditate anyway.)
It's the first time I hear it and I double-checked the wiki to make sure it didn't change since the last time I read it, and there's nothing like it mentioned. Is it true? If so, are there specifications as to how it prioritise (since it should have targeted me as the 2nd occurrence, not the 4th) and thus specific ways to avoid it? Sounds strange.
(I didn't want to stay in, eat it, and answer with EQ+autos since he has meditate anyway.)
AS has no priority on champions whatsoever but it still hits 4 targets if available. If there are like 5-6 creeps and 1 champion the chance it will hit the champion is still reasonably high. You are correct in assuming that if a real priority exists and you are close enough to get hit after the first target you would be second so obviously thats not the case. Also its not like the champ will always get hit last in line as you may have experienced as well.
If you are that interested in analyzing it I propose a 1vs1. The non-yi side at one point in the game has to create a big wave (12-15 creeps) and the yi-side alpha strikes with the champ standing behind the creeps. If a champion priority would exist he should get hit once every AS.
Played a game as Sona w/ Ez carry. Game going pretty well, Ez is 7/0 I'm 1/1 or something with a lot of assists. We get a big fight in bot lane, trade 3 for 1. Yi is chilling out by our tri (he's not even in the bush, so we go to kill him.
I'm squishy, but I have like 2/3 hp left. I'm with Ez, Rammus and our mid (I forget who). They're all at 2/3 or higher hp, and Rammus can taunt right?
Not sure what happens, but all of a sudden Yi gets a quadra. I'm confused as shit. We all are.
He proceeds to carry the fuck out of the game. I was so confused.
Quite the most depressing ranked game I've ever had. Fucking 7/0 Ezreal in lane, still lose.
AP yi is really strong, thats why he is being nerfed. Yes, he can be dealt with by someone with good sustain and clear and good team coordination, but he is really strong.
Anyone who tells you "oh AP yi he's just pubstomp champ easy to counter once you know how total shit in my 1400+ elo" is just an idiot. Its the same thing with Kassadin. M5 ran AP yi a few months ago and collected more than one penta for it in tourney play. Turn on streams at 2300elo and see people getting crapped on by Kassadin all day. These champs aren't as cheesy as some people seem to think. They have weaknesses but with good play they have really brutal strengths to make up for it.
On January 31 2013 15:38 sob3k wrote: AP yi is really strong, thats why he is being nerfed. Yes, he can be dealt with by someone with good sustain and clear and good team coordination, but he is really strong.
Anyone who tells you "oh AP yi he's just pubstomp champ easy to counter once you know how total shit in my 1400+ elo" is just an idiot. Its the same thing with Kassadin. M5 ran AP yi a few months ago and collected more than one penta for it in tourney play. Turn on streams at 2300elo and see people getting crapped on by Kassadin all day. These champs aren't as cheesy as some people seem to think. They have weaknesses but with good play they have really brutal strengths to make up for it.
Ap yi is just a stupid champion that gets free harrass and infinite sustain in lane, and if the other team is strong enough to get your team low 4v5/your team is full of squishies he just has a field day.
The entire design of the champion is anti fun to play against.
Also, Kass got way way stronger when you can safely start pure sustain.
Edit: In fact hes actually much stronger once your past the elo where people never group so he can actually teamfight and get resets. (yi)
Dammit I just started to enjoy the amazingness that is AP Yi and now he's going to get changed. I've changed my mind on the changes they look good tho.
BTW after hat/LB do you guys get DFG or Nashor's usually?
I'd probably go Zhonya's or DFG. I don't think Nashor's is that great on Yi, since you really need to get resets and you're probably not sitting around and autoing anyone for too terribly long to take advantage of the on hit damage.
I’ve been doing some theorycrafting for Yi’s upcoming remake, since I’ve enjoyed playing him quite a bit and I think his remade form looks interesting. Basically as far as I can see, everything is a straight buff to AD Yi, while more or less removing AP Yi from the game and rolling much of its strengths into AD Yi. AD Yi now has a better passive, AP Yi's Q capacity for burst and waveclear, strong healing from W when you get low, and free AD plus AD-scaling true damage from E’s passive and active (respectively). His ult is also better, I think, as you can get Yisets without having to time it correctly, and it has the capacity to be straight up better stat-wise and duration-wise than the previous one.
Obviously new AD Yi won’t have as high of burst or sustain as current AP, but it is much better than it is for current AD Yi. This is pretty intriguing for me, so these are my thoughts as of current. Feel free to add, detract, and/or show math if you see something.
I think he’s going to share a lot of the same issues as current Yi top, but will be stronger as well. Since you no longer have to choose between waveclear/sustain (AP) or sustained damage/fighting power (AD), he has the capacity to clear semi-safely against many champs while also being able to fight head-to-head against certain matchups.
Yi’s mid will certainly be weaker than it is currently, but I don’t think we’re looking at it disappearing altogether. I think he actually has a better place in mid than top still, playing close to a Zed or Kha mid (though likely not on their level of overall power). He will be able to do what mid Yi does currently, that is, push and poke with Q while sitting back and occasionally healing when he gets bursted, while roaming with his high MS and surprise burst on unsuspecting side lanes. On the plus side, he’ll now be able to follow up burst with higher kill potential on his autos (which AP Yi can’t really do pre-Lichbane).
Looking at some pre-release videos, his clear time looks monstrous. With Q’s CD being reduced on autos (and with both of Double Strike’s hits giving the CDR), he can clear Blue -> Red without assistance at minimal health lost (using pots, ofc). He still has the issue of having no CC for ganks, but that’s always been his issue.
The stats that look good on him now are fairly obvious. You’re going to want to build semi ADC with AD/AS/Crit/some APen. On-hit isn’t entirely out of the question thanks to his naturally high AS, Highlander, and Double Strike. That said, there aren’t a lot of great on-hit items for him.
As for prioritization, I’m unsure as of yet.
AD scales so well on him now, thanks to Q and E’s scaling being pretty aggressive with high amounts of AD. 15% true damage and 100% AD on an AoE mid/late game is no joke, to be sure.
Crit is Crit, great on a champ with high AS, an AS steroid, Double Strike, and Q can crit now. This will make him bursty as anything on Q and give his pushing power something special.
AS is fantastic, as it is on any champ that gets free damage on their autos. A moderate amount of AD mixed with AS can make your E’s active deal a solid amount of true damage in an extended trade, very valuable as many top matchups will stack armor against you.
ArPen is about what you’d expect. Build when enemies build armor, get a fair amount of flat to tear through squishies without any armor items.
This leaves me at somewhat of an impasse. AD will scale really hard on him, so there’s precedent to stack it as high as possible. At the same time, AS gives him a lot thanks to E boosting his autos quite a bit.
Therefore, I think prioritization will likely be AD >= AS > Crit (== APen depending on the armor situation)
As for items, with these stats in mind, there’s likely a few ways to go.
I originally thought BoRK would be a solid choice, as it gave both AD and AS, but it’s a fairly low amount of AD, since it relies a lot on the passive. That said, it’s a decent amount of AS, the % health proc works with Double Strike and can synergize with Highlander, and the active gives him even more sticking power (and possibly gank potential if you build it on Jungle Yi).
Bloodthirster is a pretty good choice, as it kind of fills a similar role to building DC first on AP Yi. You get that big amount of damage on your Q, allowing you to farm and chunk people who get caught in it, also scaling your E very hard.
IE is solid as ever. It turns your Q into a proccy nightmare while also giving you a decent amount of AD for all the goodness that comes with it.
Shiv seems pretty good for him. Avarice early can help your farm style (unless you’re in a lane you can just stomp on) while giving you pretty decent split pushing power. Alpha Strike gives “movement” for Shiv’s counter, so you can auto -> Alpha -> get proc back really quick, and the AS gets your Alpha strike up even quicker, so they boost each other’s prowess. This seems to be a great item for a split push oriented Yi.
Hydra is another possibility. I still see Yi as a pusher, and this not only gives the pushing power on your autos, but +75 AD is nothing to joke at with Q and E. While it doesn’t have Fiora’s capacity to AoE a team down on her ult, it still gives you some decent AoE damage in teamfights if you Q to a squishy, AoE them down with Alpha, then wail on their back line with E+R+Hydra.
I honestly have never used Youmuu’s on a champ before, but I can see it being decent. Synergy with ult, some AD, some ArPen. Still, not a lot of AD, and no AS outside of the active. I’d probably take a pass, but might consider it if I had an early Bruta for whatever reason. I’d probably take it over BC, since he’s not the best stacker of BC’s passive and would probably prefer Ghostblade’s active over it.
Onto Scimitar/Maw. I’m not honestly sure which one is better on him, both have their upsides. QSS is great to help with his hard CC issues, Maw gives more AD (given that you won’t be at 100% life most of the game) and has a much smoother build.
I don’t think I’d go with the new Spellbreaker item. Not enough crit to warrant it over Maw, and if I have an Avarice I’d rather it go into Shiv.
Zephyr is an item I really like in theory on a lot of champs. That said, justifying it is a bit hard. Tenacity is great since I’m likely going to get Zerkers over Merc’s, the stats are all nice for him. I would pick this up in a build where I’m not focusing on Crit, and after I’ve gotten a bit of AD.
Manamune/Muramana is interesting. You can’t really stack it all that fast, but then again your Q’s cost has gotten increased. You can also stack it by just activating E, since it no longer costs mana. I don’t think I’d consider this a top pick, but if after playing him mana becomes a problem I’ll likely consider it.
As for a defensive item (outside of Maw/Scimitar) I think GA is your best option by far. Since you don’t need Highlander up to get resets, you can even go in early, Alpha strike everything, and then get your Yisets while you rez.
Likely what I’ll be trying first is a Riven-style Doran’s and BT core, but throwing in a Shiv or Zephyr if I can. My first few games will be focusing less on Crit and more on pure AD/AS/Lifesteal with Zerkers/BT/Hydra/Zephyr/LW/Shiv being my final goal in some order.
Not sure which Marks to run. AD/ArPen will help Q farming, AS helps with trading. I think his playstyle is going to be a mix between AD and AP as of current, farming/pushing/poking hard with Q, but now able to follow up with actual AD stats if he gets into auto trades.
Obviously it's a long way off, but I enjoy this sort of theorycrafting.
Cool theorycraft there. Yi and old Tryndamere (before the remake) were my favorite champs (built AD). I always enjoyed the "dodge the CC" minigame. I will really enjoy this huge buff. Maybe he will have a jungle speed on par with the current fastest ones.
As long as I can push towers like a mofo out of jungle. I'll be okay with the remake. They'll probably kill off my tanky AD jungle Yi though given the changes to wuju style.
I hate BotRK on Yi. The dude runs at 500+ movement speed with his ult (or more) and has a gap closer. Not enough AD to justify it in my opinion. Granted I do run movement speed quints on him out of the jungle but meh. This is probably going to be even more the case since attacking opponents lowers the cooldown of alpha strike.
Also, I feel like Riot is potentially setting themself up with a Xin Zhao of yore situation. Alpha strike's cooldown going down with autos and also having a mini-crit potential is going to be really problematic if they don't fine tune that stuff really well.
On that note, I think there's a possibility for a straight Crit oriented build built around RNG'ing shit to death. IE/Shiv/PD/(LW or BT) and then just hope things stand still long enough to proc them to death. Could actually be pretty funny to Q crit -> Double Strike crit -> Q crit and just see someone melt.
His attack speed is significantly lower. I think they hit his base or scaling attack speed and his ult. Sort of annoying.
Double Strike: This is a pretty stupid change since it's every 4th attack now, and AD Yi is going to have enough attack speed to land this incessantly, especially while ulting. Works against towers too, so you don't have to hit the tower 7 times if you start at 0 stacks. You don't retain stacks if you stop autoing, so that makes it somewhat better, but you apply on-hit affects. Apparently Wuju's active doesn't count as on-hit.
Alpha Strike: Damage isn't terribly different (against champions), other than you have incentives to build AD+crit, and since it does physical damage instead of magic, the damage is more relevant late game as AD Yi because a last whisper will help tons. The cooldown decreases by 1 per auto is a big, big deal- they increased the cooldown of alpha strike a bit to compensate, but if you get any significant amount of attack speed, its cooldown is lower if you're autoing and not getting cced. God help us all if you get blue buff. Also makes Yi extremely slippery because even if you don't get resets, you can get your alpha back pretty quickly. Then you get resets, and it starts getting stupid.
Meditate: Pretty much a straight up nerf because its damage reduction and not an obscene amount of flat armor/magic resist. Not much to say here.
Wuju Style: The passive %AD increase is a nerf until you hit 200 AD and level 5 Wuju (I think the old Wuju was a 30 flat AD at level 5- pretty sure anyways), after that its a buff. The true damage portion of this skill is absolutely retarded. If you get say, 2 attack speed and have 200 AD (not super uncommon with like two attack speed items+ult, and like maybe one big damage item), and activate Wuju at level 5, if you can sit and auto for a full 5 seconds, you get 10 autos plus 2 double strikes. Each auto gives 70 true damage. So you're looking at something like 700 true damage, plus whatever else you get from your normal AD (2200 before armor). Now imagine getting resets on this skill when you get a kill or an assist. Who thought this was a good idea?
Highlander: Not much to say, other than they removed most of the work in managing your resets well. There's no incentive to get kills over assists now, and you don't have to reactivate highlander after getting either because its duration extends. Personally I find this sort of stupid, that was one of the most challenging aspects of Yi.
In short, Wuju's active is frakking ridiculous and alpha strike is sort of dumb too. Although after looking at Yi's attack speed, I think they hit his passive attack speed pretty hard, or I'm completely misremembering stuff. I can imagine a tanky attack speed Yi who just abuses the crap out of the true damage on Wuju being completely workable. Live long enough to get resets and have a high attack speed, you're going to be railing out a crapton of true damage.
On August 01 2013 00:00 zer0das wrote: My initial impressions of Yi:
His attack speed is significantly lower. I think they hit his base or scaling attack speed and his ult. Sort of annoying.
Double Strike: This is a pretty stupid change since it's every 4th attack now, and AD Yi is going to have enough attack speed to land this incessantly, especially while ulting. Works against towers too, so you don't have to hit the tower 7 times if you start at 0 stacks. You don't retain stacks if you stop autoing, so that makes it somewhat better, but you apply on-hit affects. Apparently Wuju's active doesn't count as on-hit.
Alpha Strike: Damage isn't terribly different (against champions), other than you have incentives to build AD+crit, and since it does physical damage instead of magic, the damage is more relevant late game as AD Yi because a last whisper will help tons. The cooldown decreases by 1 per auto is a big, big deal- they increased the cooldown of alpha strike a bit to compensate, but if you get any significant amount of attack speed, its cooldown is lower if you're autoing and not getting cced. God help us all if you get blue buff. Also makes Yi extremely slippery because even if you don't get resets, you can get your alpha back pretty quickly. Then you get resets, and it starts getting stupid.
Meditate: Pretty much a straight up nerf because its damage reduction and not an obscene amount of flat armor/magic resist. Not much to say here.
Wuju Style: The passive %AD increase is a nerf until you hit 200 AD and level 5 Wuju (I think the old Wuju was a 30 flat AD at level 5- pretty sure anyways), after that its a buff. The true damage portion of this skill is absolutely retarded. If you get say, 2 attack speed and have 200 AD (not super uncommon with like two attack speed items+ult, and like maybe one big damage item), and activate Wuju at level 5, if you can sit and auto for a full 5 seconds, you get 10 autos plus 2 double strikes. Each auto gives 70 true damage. So you're looking at something like 700 true damage, plus whatever else you get from your normal AD (2200 before armor). Now imagine getting resets on this skill when you get a kill or an assist. Who thought this was a good idea?
Highlander: Not much to say, other than they removed most of the work in managing your resets well. There's no incentive to get kills over assists now, and you don't have to reactivate highlander after getting either because its duration extends. Personally I find this sort of stupid, that was one of the most challenging aspects of Yi.
In short, Wuju's active is frakking ridiculous and alpha strike is sort of dumb too. Although after looking at Yi's attack speed, I think they hit his passive attack speed pretty hard, or I'm completely misremembering stuff. I can imagine a tanky attack speed Yi who just abuses the crap out of the true damage on Wuju being completely workable. Live long enough to get resets and have a high attack speed, you're going to be railing out a crapton of true damage.
Yeah I just played a custom game with bots to try him out.
My build was BotRK, Youmuu's, Statikk Shiv, Berserker's Greaves, IE and BT.
At full build with potions I was around 380 damage, 60% crit chance, 1.8 or so attack speed, was able to kill baron in under 15 seconds. With 40% CDR, was able to alpha strike every 3 seconds or less with ult up. Absolutely ridiculous damage. With ~380 AD, it was like 120 or 130 true damage every hit iirc.
On August 01 2013 00:00 zer0das wrote: My initial impressions of Yi:
His attack speed is significantly lower. I think they hit his base or scaling attack speed and his ult. Sort of annoying.
Double Strike: This is a pretty stupid change since it's every 4th attack now, and AD Yi is going to have enough attack speed to land this incessantly, especially while ulting. Works against towers too, so you don't have to hit the tower 7 times if you start at 0 stacks. You don't retain stacks if you stop autoing, so that makes it somewhat better, but you apply on-hit affects. Apparently Wuju's active doesn't count as on-hit.
Alpha Strike: Damage isn't terribly different (against champions), other than you have incentives to build AD+crit, and since it does physical damage instead of magic, the damage is more relevant late game as AD Yi because a last whisper will help tons. The cooldown decreases by 1 per auto is a big, big deal- they increased the cooldown of alpha strike a bit to compensate, but if you get any significant amount of attack speed, its cooldown is lower if you're autoing and not getting cced. God help us all if you get blue buff. Also makes Yi extremely slippery because even if you don't get resets, you can get your alpha back pretty quickly. Then you get resets, and it starts getting stupid.
Meditate: Pretty much a straight up nerf because its damage reduction and not an obscene amount of flat armor/magic resist. Not much to say here.
Wuju Style: The passive %AD increase is a nerf until you hit 200 AD and level 5 Wuju (I think the old Wuju was a 30 flat AD at level 5- pretty sure anyways), after that its a buff. The true damage portion of this skill is absolutely retarded. If you get say, 2 attack speed and have 200 AD (not super uncommon with like two attack speed items+ult, and like maybe one big damage item), and activate Wuju at level 5, if you can sit and auto for a full 5 seconds, you get 10 autos plus 2 double strikes. Each auto gives 70 true damage. So you're looking at something like 700 true damage, plus whatever else you get from your normal AD (2200 before armor). Now imagine getting resets on this skill when you get a kill or an assist. Who thought this was a good idea?
Highlander: Not much to say, other than they removed most of the work in managing your resets well. There's no incentive to get kills over assists now, and you don't have to reactivate highlander after getting either because its duration extends. Personally I find this sort of stupid, that was one of the most challenging aspects of Yi.
In short, Wuju's active is frakking ridiculous and alpha strike is sort of dumb too. Although after looking at Yi's attack speed, I think they hit his passive attack speed pretty hard, or I'm completely misremembering stuff. I can imagine a tanky attack speed Yi who just abuses the crap out of the true damage on Wuju being completely workable. Live long enough to get resets and have a high attack speed, you're going to be railing out a crapton of true damage.
Yeah I just played a custom game with bots to try him out.
My build was BotRK, Youmuu's, Statikk Shiv, Berserker's Greaves, IE and BT.
At full build with potions I was around 380 damage, 60% crit chance, 1.8 or so attack speed, was able to kill baron in under 15 seconds. With 40% CDR, was able to alpha strike every 3 seconds or less with ult up. Absolutely ridiculous damage. With ~380 AD, it was like 120 or 130 true damage every hit iirc.
And if you play that build against real players they just stun you and nuke you down in a split second.
Not like it was some kind of proof, Yi feels pretty strong now overall (at least in lower gold elo).
Apart from his damn annoying true damage + Q spam (AAs reducing its cool down is just... welp), I have the feeling you don't really need to think what you're gonna do at what point in the game. I have played Yi before the rework a total of 2 (bot) games and after I saw him doing pretty well in ranked play, I decided to give the new jungle Yi a try in normals and I must say: he's is pretty easy to play (just like Graves when learning adc for example).
R lasting longer gives lots of time to wait for the perfect alpha strike, which usually is right after the AoE clusterfuck has been used in the teamfight. Then Q-> and AA people to death, esepecially ap casters without good mobility get fucked so hard it's not even funny. It's getting really hilarious when they learned what you've been doing in fights and save some shit to throw at you which you then dodge with Q.
In addition, once a target is isolated, it's not going to get anywhere. You run faster as everybody else with ult and Q has a lower cooldown compared to the prevalent mobility abilities.
Let's see what LCS makes out of him, but I for myself am pretty sure Riot has to tweak him, if only because of the fact that he's probably roflstomping at low elo.
I feel Yi is utterly useless now. In lane people abuse the living crap out of Yi and you simply can not answer back.
His Q does very little damage and you have a hard time hitting a decent opponent with it anyway. It also drains your Mana EXTREMLY fast since you dont play Dorans Ring anymore.
In the games I played so far people would just gladly take the trade and come out ahead every time. You can try to Q the enemy laner directly to get damage done, but that is obviously pretty much all in at any point. Q is also not able to clear waves as efficiently as before.
So in lane you end up trying desperatly not to fall behind in cs, burning through your mana and then slowly getting poked to death once your pots run out, while the enemy laner pretty much stays topped off all the time.
In Team fights you just have to hope people forget about you, but they dont and they will focus you and they will kill you. Meditate is so bad now that unless you build pretty tanky in the first place an adc can kill you through it without even using ignite.
The only good thing is that you are actually able to duel people now, that leaves pretty much splitpushing as your only viable role in the game.
New Yi also feels very clunky and the new Highlander is boring and not rewarding.
Ap Yi was a niche champion that thrived on having very little uptime in team fights due to fast Q resets and being untargetabble, while covering with Meditate for the time inbetween (and even with old Yi using Meditate IN the actual fight was not recommended since it would just get interupted and then you die and look stupid).
So now they increased the uptime in fights due to the dependency on getting AA off and at the same time made meditate magnitudes worse and that pretty much makes him unplayable at the moment.
My advice: forget about Yi go play Zed/Kha/Talon/Tryn and be actually useful.
Jungle Yi seems like the only thing that actually works. Yi doesn't have a reliable way to deal with ranged champs in lane, and his meditate is complete shit unless you max it and why would you do that? Hell, even maxed out it's significantly worse than it was at rank 1 for AP Yi before.
You do still take towers in about 4 seconds flat though, so there is that.
On August 01 2013 00:00 zer0das wrote: My initial impressions of Yi:
His attack speed is significantly lower. I think they hit his base or scaling attack speed and his ult. Sort of annoying.
Double Strike: This is a pretty stupid change since it's every 4th attack now, and AD Yi is going to have enough attack speed to land this incessantly, especially while ulting. Works against towers too, so you don't have to hit the tower 7 times if you start at 0 stacks. You don't retain stacks if you stop autoing, so that makes it somewhat better, but you apply on-hit affects. Apparently Wuju's active doesn't count as on-hit.
Alpha Strike: Damage isn't terribly different (against champions), other than you have incentives to build AD+crit, and since it does physical damage instead of magic, the damage is more relevant late game as AD Yi because a last whisper will help tons. The cooldown decreases by 1 per auto is a big, big deal- they increased the cooldown of alpha strike a bit to compensate, but if you get any significant amount of attack speed, its cooldown is lower if you're autoing and not getting cced. God help us all if you get blue buff. Also makes Yi extremely slippery because even if you don't get resets, you can get your alpha back pretty quickly. Then you get resets, and it starts getting stupid.
Meditate: Pretty much a straight up nerf because its damage reduction and not an obscene amount of flat armor/magic resist. Not much to say here.
Wuju Style: The passive %AD increase is a nerf until you hit 200 AD and level 5 Wuju (I think the old Wuju was a 30 flat AD at level 5- pretty sure anyways), after that its a buff. The true damage portion of this skill is absolutely retarded. If you get say, 2 attack speed and have 200 AD (not super uncommon with like two attack speed items+ult, and like maybe one big damage item), and activate Wuju at level 5, if you can sit and auto for a full 5 seconds, you get 10 autos plus 2 double strikes. Each auto gives 70 true damage. So you're looking at something like 700 true damage, plus whatever else you get from your normal AD (2200 before armor). Now imagine getting resets on this skill when you get a kill or an assist. Who thought this was a good idea?
Highlander: Not much to say, other than they removed most of the work in managing your resets well. There's no incentive to get kills over assists now, and you don't have to reactivate highlander after getting either because its duration extends. Personally I find this sort of stupid, that was one of the most challenging aspects of Yi.
In short, Wuju's active is frakking ridiculous and alpha strike is sort of dumb too. Although after looking at Yi's attack speed, I think they hit his passive attack speed pretty hard, or I'm completely misremembering stuff. I can imagine a tanky attack speed Yi who just abuses the crap out of the true damage on Wuju being completely workable. Live long enough to get resets and have a high attack speed, you're going to be railing out a crapton of true damage.
Some of what you mentioned got changed.
The true damage was reduced to 30 from 70. They also changed it so assists mean less than kills for cd reduction.
The true damage number is referencing a specific AD, since it scales with that. The reset management was specifically referencing the fact highlander's duration increases by 4 seconds regardless of a kill or an assist, although it does look like they changed everything else resetting 100% with just an assist.
On August 01 2013 07:57 sicorad wrote: I feel Yi is utterly useless now. In lane people abuse the living crap out of Yi and you simply can not answer back.
His Q does very little damage and you have a hard time hitting a decent opponent with it anyway. It also drains your Mana EXTREMLY fast since you dont play Dorans Ring anymore.
I don't know, I started with Doran's Ring in the two games I've played with him after remake. Sort of the same reasoning as Kennen with Doran's Blade -- it helps early. Being "delayed" 400g doesn't not feel that bad when it's so much easier to farm, harass and shrug off it off too with Meditate.
Sword of the Divine is hilarious on him now. So much burst when you Q in. I also absolutely loooooove Zephyr's on him now, AS+CDR is so crazy with his Q. Granted in both games we had an energy mid (I played top) and the jungler fed blue to me might have helped too with the laning. Yi seems really strong now as a situational pick.
BT/Zephyr/Zerkers actually felt quite strong. The amount of damage you can put out in the course of a couple seconds is pretty obscene. I will agree with an earlier post (can't remember if it was here or GD) that there's a really awkward time where you have like Boots and Vamp and can't really fight or duel anyone until you hit BFS.
The one game where I bought BotRK (on accident >.> ) Felt alright as well, you just relied a lot more on your autos to do anything. Which isn't a bad thing, I just notices a significant decrease in burst from Q and E passive/active. I'd really only consider it again if they had very minimal CC.
The thing I was thinking, though, was rushing Zephyr as a first item. I know it seems odd, but hear me out. First off, it has every stat you'd want. Yi desperately wants Tenacity, but doesn't necessarily want Merc's. You want AD and AS, and it gives the same amount of AD as BotRK and 10% more AS. The CDR is hilariously good on him too for Alpha Strike.
The issue with Zephyr has always been that people want other stats before it. AD characters want Crit and more AD than it offers, AS tanks like Irelia want more defensive stats. But Yi wants AD/AS/MS/CDR in pretty even amounts. And Stinger/Pickaxe are pretty good on their own as build up items, I'd argue either are as good or better than Cutlass in lane.
From there you can even go to Bruta -> Ghostblade as a AD/CDR/AS-centric build, which I think (and this is just personal opinion) feels stronger than AD/AS/Crit all things considered. I would miss the Lifesteal, sure, but I think it's worth trying at least.
As far as starting items go, I did one game with Boots4, one with LongSword2, and two with Health Pot/Flask/Ward. I think having Flask really helps a lot for your first couple levels, especially in mid against ranged opponents. I didn't feel particularly stronger with Long Sword, nor did Boots feel super necessary considering your already high base MS alongside Alpha and Highlander.
I just tried a Shiv/Hydra build and I must say he farms like an absolute boss with it. It's a very strong build for splitpushing I think. Shivv is intersting on a quite crit based build becauses it adds some burst. I played my game against an Ezreal and with his arcane shift and Sona's movespeed buff I often could get only one or two autos on him at a time... A quite heavy AD build on him is more reliable than crit probably. Getting a SotD could increase his burst after few items. I'll try the Zephyr, it looks nice on paper.
Yi jungle is fun and if you go zephyr either they kill you in teamfight or you will chase them and kill them no one is running away from him without hard CC chain. I'm having a blast with him.
On the topic of sololane like mid or top I honestly think Botrk is bad on bruiser/caster AD like aatrox, yi, wukong and anything that has (multiple) AoE skills that scales on AD you lose a lot of AoE damage that really makes the difference in teamfight, 2v2, 3v3 etc. I go for BT anytime I'm way ahead in lane and can afford the BF early or go for tiamat-> hydra the health regen from tiamat will give you more HP back especially on hard lane where you can't autoattack as you want and a vamp scepter won't help much. I'm now just abusing hydra into spirit visage until they nerf spirit visage. Hydra+spirit visage gives you 42+ hp / 5sec and 20% CDR if you fight in middle of minions waves the AoE lifesteal gives you so much HP back you can't lose a duel. You can clear waves in seconds and go roam to 5men uncontested drake or collapse as 3 on the midlaner.
Shiv is a good and fun item if you get it early, and is really strong in 1v1 or in gank situations when you outnumber them because it adds a burst when no one has magic resist and when they don't have too much CC available you may be able to stick to your target by dodging or going in after they CC. The thing is in mid to late game in teamfight shiv is way inferior to phantom dancer or Zephyr because everyone has MR now and aegis will reduce the damage of the proc a lot because you have no Magic pen and you absolutely need Tenacity if you don't want to risk being CCed out of the fight or get focus fired and die on one stun.
I also absolutely loooooove Zephyr's on him now, AS+CDR is so crazy with his Q
I want to third this, zephyr I think has got to be core on him. It's a flexible build path, offers a lot of utility and I think what is really underestimated is that 10% movespeed. Yi is already pretty fast, so this scales really well with him and means he outspeeds 99% of champs even if he's only at boots 1 to their boots 2. That's critical to letting him stick to someone and really crush them.
AD is always more reliable than Crit. I think Crit is too overvalued on him, honestly. Your true damage can't crit, your Q only crits for 60% (90% with IE), and you don't get enough extra base damage anymore since now you have extra scaling AD instead.
Hydra is one build I really want to try, but it always feels awkward. Like, yeah great if you're split pushing, but if you're fighting, BT is basically the same price (worse build up, I'll admit) but more AD, and the AoE doesn't feel that noticeable in teamfights. That said, I've only used it a couple times on various champs, so I'll do some builds with it and see how it feels.
Hydra also gives an autoattack reset. I think people often forget about that. And as I said earlier, it's also a crazy item for farming. Mid lane you can very easily clear wolves, lane, wraiths, lanes, etc... It's a very good item if you're not ahead in your lane because the AD doesn't need to be stacked also.
Has anyone tried Muramana on him? I just tried vs bots out of curiosity. It solves all mana issues, was spamming to check, and with a AS/CDR build it's possible to throw out a ton of Q's without concern for mana usage. The proc also felt really strong simply due to sheer the amount of autoattacks he can land.
It might be horrible in an actual game tho, but it was very nice to just spamspamspam all day and then eventually upgrade it to gain a colossal burst boost. Upgraded tear to Manamune after Zephyr. - the idea was to get it as a substitute for Vampiric (use meditate for sustain instead of life steal), to go straight into Zephyr safely. It felt more as a somewhat more "liquid" route since it avoided the akward Scepter+Boots phase.
Personally I don't understand why you'd want Hydra over something else? His clear is already insane thanks to his kit.
I think Muramana has the potential to be a good item on him, but I doubt I'd really consider it core. It has a lot going for it, but after a few levels and if you're careful with Alpha you really don't go oom too badly. I start with Flask to help with those first few levels anyway. He also can't spam too hard to stack it, and can be punished if you go in to auto stack Manamune.
It's one of those items that's like, yeah I'd love to have it, but I can't really justify buying it over something that gives more, just because it gives you a nice mana pool. But then again, I suck, so I could be wrong Try it out in a game and tell us!
I tried it in the past by rushing it on old yi and it took forever to build into manamune after which point it was ok. Then it took another forever to turn into muramana. I just don't stack fast enough on jungle yi.
Pretty much, it seems to be most effective for Yi to build just like a regular AD carry except building 1-2 more defensive items being a melee carry and all, and compensating through immense scaling. Youmu's is solid for early-mid game, and if you're going jungle, getting Wriggles + Ghostblade makes him a very dangerous mid game threat. BotRK is surprising good due to the increased attack speed energizing with his E on hit true damage and chasing/running. Zephyr replaces boots late game, and I would imagine a late game Yi with BotRK, IE, PD, Zephyr, GA and Scimitar would be near unstoppable doing 1000 + Alpha Strike crits and similar damage autos with 2.5 attack speed, gaining 600+ MS with BotRK and the Scimitar's melee only bonus MS to its cleanse.
On August 02 2013 01:45 obesechicken13 wrote: I tried it in the past by rushing it on old yi and it took forever to build into manamune after which point it was ok. Then it took another forever to turn into muramana. I just don't stack fast enough on jungle yi.
Just tried in a custom game to see just how fast I could max out the stacks. I managed to do it at 22 minutes using only Zephyr as a CDR item and taking no blues. Granted this was without any enemies to delay it, I think it should be possible to do within reasonable time if one acquire an additional CDR item outside of Zephyr - Spirit Visage as someone mentioned earlier? - or maybe upgrading it to Muramana earlier.
Triggering E everytime it was off CD and using Meditate whenever I could helped tremendously in regards to the stacking speed. For some reason E and W does not always show up as triggered on Tear, but they do in fact add a stack. The new Q's reduction made it far faster than old Yi, especially since with Tear you can use it whenever it's off CD without going oom.
I sadly wont have time to play more games the next few days, but when I do I'll try to report back in regards how a Tear build works out on him -- unless of course someone else already has tried it by then.
I'll definetely use Tear instead of Doran's Ring should I play him again (yeah, I started with it the two times I played him to spam Q and use Meditate as much as possible).
I'm still toying with items for Jungle Yi, but currently my thought process is: Lizard Elder, Ghostblade, Zerker Greaves, BT, Zephyr, Frozen Heart, selling Lizard Elder for IE.
On August 02 2013 01:40 Jek wrote: Personally I don't understand why you'd want Hydra over something else? His clear is already insane thanks to his kit.
why wouldn't you want hydra? the only comparable AD items are bt and ie, and both have more awkward build ups and do nothing to help clear waves in between alpha strike cooldowns when you literally can't do anything but auto attack a single creep at a time.
if you die occasionally and ur BT isn't fully stacked all of the time i'm not sure what advantages it gives you over hydra and as amazing as it would be to just rush IE every game, i'm pretty sure the overall cost and time spent with uncompleted parts makes that impractical.
Personally I think Manamune is a bit of a dead end item on Yi. He doesn't really need the mana pool prior to it changing into a Muramana, and his auto speed is fast enough you're going to drain your mana extremely quickly without blue buff once it has transformed. It does offer somewhat interesting burst with double strike procing awe twice, but given how much Yi loves offensive stats and CDR, I don't think it offers enough.
I think Yi is a rare case of a melee champion where Bloodthirster is probably better than Hydra. The extra AD and lifesteal when fully stacked make much more of a difference because Yi autos a lot more than your typical bruiser AD champion. 10 seconds on hydra active is huge on someone like Lee or Renekton because their damage is tied to their abilities (burst) so heavily, but with Yi it's not impossible to get off 10-15 autos in the same time frame, so every bit of extra AD and lifesteal matters. Sure you lose stacks, but you can acquire those again with a little work before the next fight.
I'm thinking something like zerkers/BT/ghostblade/zephyr/guardian angel/situational 6th item (IE/last whisper/randuins, banshee's veil/frozen mallet depending on the situation) would be pretty strong.I think it provides a decent mix of offensive power with defense.
so do yi's CD's get reset always when he gets a kill, even when its on CD? Also, 'reduced by half for assists' does that mean if Q is on CD with 4 seconds left it goes to 0 seconds or 2 seconds?
On August 02 2013 17:03 Complete wrote: so do yi's CD's get reset always when he gets a kill, even when its on CD? Also, 'reduced by half for assists' does that mean if Q is on CD with 4 seconds left it goes to 0 seconds or 2 seconds?
It means the reduction amount is reduced by half(like 18 base to 9 or something like that?). If you have enough CDR, that point is moot, and you always reset when somebody dies.
Yi is really, really strong right now. I actually think he's stronger than irelia in a midgame, and probably easier to farm up with alpha being so good. The true damage steroid in combination with ghostblade and ultimate just makes him truck squishies, and true damage steroid allows him to deal respectable damage even to tanks.
On August 02 2013 01:40 Jek wrote: Personally I don't understand why you'd want Hydra over something else? His clear is already insane thanks to his kit.
why wouldn't you want hydra? the only comparable AD items are bt and ie, and both have more awkward build ups and do nothing to help clear waves in between alpha strike cooldowns when you literally can't do anything but auto attack a single creep at a time.
if you die occasionally and ur BT isn't fully stacked all of the time i'm not sure what advantages it gives you over hydra and as amazing as it would be to just rush IE every game, i'm pretty sure the overall cost and time spent with uncompleted parts makes that impractical.
I can see your point, but Alpha really fast one shoot the caster minions and make one of the melee low enough for a single hit KO leaving only two creeps left - at which point Hydra seems overkill; Hydra do however look interesting in teamfights where you can Alpha in and then wail away with AoE autos.
Personally I don't feel like I need more Life Steal than my 3 Quints. I rush Zephyr's, and I think for a secondary offensive item Last Whisper or Ghostblade would be better. From my experience Yi's damage is plenty high without a ton of AD from items at least if you go for the AS/CDR route.
On August 02 2013 10:19 IntoTheheart wrote: Wait so is he really good as a bruisy-AD sort of character now?
I just come from a game where I went bruiserish. Tabi/Zephyr/Sunfire/Spirit Visage/BT (wanted Tabis vs my lane opponent - Irelia - and they had Xin jungle). In retrospect I think Tabi/Zephyr/Randuin/Spirit Visage/Ghostblade would have been much better. It worked out really well, tanky enough to not get blown up and high enough damage to kill squishies fast if they don't spend CC on me. - Cait did end up hard carry us, so it's hard to say how it would have worked out in an equal game.
----
On Muramana: The lack of basically infinite mana hurt splitpushing power as Alpha Strike mana cost is quite taxing if you spam it, it was still possible but having to actually look at mana from time to time was anoying. - Lacking the active in lategame did hurt a bit too.
After jungling Yi in a ranked game, here are my thoughts: overall his clear time is much, much better than it used to be, especially with madreds. And his ganks feel stronger because it's easier to stay trained on a target since alpha strike comes back so quickly when you're autoing. Previously, a lot of those kills would just walk away. Building AD on him early is a lot better than it used to be coming from the jungle, since he excels at ripping apart individual/fleeing targets. That's a major plus.
Downsides: the meditation % damage resist means once you go in, you have to be 100% committed because there's very few situations where it will save you now. This is pretty much what I expected. This is a pretty big deal in teamfights, since it used to be a lot more effective, and you could get multiple resets so once you got the reset train going, you could be almost unkillable. It is a bit noticeable in ganks, but since alpha comes back so much more quickly, its not as bad as I thought it would be. I think this means GA is pretty close to mandatory on him now (and maybe a Frozen Mallet or Warmogs on top of that).
Upsides: If you don't waste your first set of double buffs, its easy to rack up kills and have a massive influence early game. Much easier to build damage on Yi early. Wrecks dragon/towers/baron while ulting like you wouldn't believe.
I think madred's razor/zerkers/bloodthirster/ghostblade/GA/Zephyr/Frozen Mallet would be quite good on him. Sell the madreds when you need space. Though madreds is probably unnecessary and just slows down item progression... I'll have to think about that one.
Also some other observations: double strike counts as a normal auto when it comes to resetting alpha strike. Also, apparently I was wrong and it also double procs the true damage on the active part of Wuju.
On August 02 2013 22:36 Requizen wrote: @Jek: You wouldn't need to worry about mana from Alphas if you used Hydra as your AoE clearing instead
I don't know about bruiser Yi yet. I have only seen one, and it was pretty bad. Sadly, I only got to play one Yi game last night, so sad.
Haha. I suppose that's true.
My primarily issue with Hydra is it's build route and at what timing you'd actually want it. I consider Zephyr's (at least with LS quints) to be the most important item to gain as fast as possible on him. At which point your opponent is capable of putting out a significant damage of his own - I like to buy a defensive item, Kindlegem for instance, at this point. But this might just be due to being much more familiar with playing support; I'm not very good at calling when to be ballish with non-supports.
If you're getting Hydra for the AoE clearing, you might as well get a Tear instead it only costs 700 vs. the 1900 of Tiamat and I honestly don't think the different in clear speed AoE autos vs having basically free Alpha Strikes are worth the trade off considering just how strong Muramana becomes against single targets thanks to it's active later on.
I've been playing quite a bit of jungle yi, and hydra+shiv feels like enough damage to stay relevant. With tanky items for everything else (spirit visage is awesome for w + aoe lifesteal, and randuins) you are a damage threat, can stay alive in teamfights, and bait people super hard with w after cc is spent in the fight.
Of course, maybe I've been getting crazy fed lately, and this is a bit unrealistic on a jungler's budget...
I've picked up Jungle Yi and wondering if anyone's had any revelations on builds for him in the past few days. My thoughts:
Jungling: Spirit Stone vs Madred's
I pick Spirit Stone. Madred's is most useful for champs that have an on-demand AS steroid (or champs that do most of their damage through autos). Yi doesn't (well, his ultimate, but that doesn't help with jungling). Also AFAIK his Q doesn't proc on hit effects. Double Strike does, but IMO that's not enough for me to choose Madred's. I max Q in the jungle first, and thus most of my clear damage comes from Q. Q benefits tremendously from Butcher, so that tips the scales in favor of SS for me. Plus it builds into SotEL, where madred's only builds into wriggle's which doesn't seem worth it to me.
I've also seen some high elo players forego a machete start and instead either get doran's blade, or long sword + 2 pot. Haven't tried that myself yet. Example: just this morning I watched TheOddOne jungle Yi and he went long sword + 2pot -> vamp scepter -> boots of speed -> BotRK and did fine.
Lifesteal + damage: BT vs. Hydra vs. BotRK I feel like you should only get 1 of these, due to the need to get either crit if you want to continue building damage, or tanky items if you want to go bruiser. I go for BotRK since the upfront burst and chasing is just so strong on this item. Also the AS synergizes with Wuju Style active.
I haven't done extensive testing, but I feel like the BotRK is just better to 100-0 your first kill in a teamfight and start up your insane reset chain. I feel like a fully-stacked BT is probably comparable in damage though. But an early/mid-game cutlass is far superior than a BF Sword for ganks, so BotRK it is.
Hydra is unnecessary IMO, once you get some AD you clear an entire wave with one Q + some autos. Plus, as I'll mention down below, I usually get shiv as my crit item, which helps even more with waveclear.
Crit items: shiv vs. PD
Shiv is the superior choice here, since Yi's movement during Q builds up the shiv, and with his ult he becomes extremely mobile, so Yi charges up the shiv significantly faster than on most champions.
Other damage items:
I usually build jungle yi as ad carry, so my other crit items are youmuu's and IE. Youmuu's is extremely stat efficient on Yi, helps kill squishies faster for your first reset, the active is boss for chasing, and brutalizer is an excellent mid-game buildup item.
IE is really only for late-game or when I get fed, but if you already have crit (shiv + youmuu's) and need more damage then it's by far the best damage item.
edit: Haven't tried it but Executioner's Calling seems like it would be actually be worth it on yi against Mundo/Volibear/Aatrox/Swain(?)/any other sustain champs
Tank/Bruiser Items:
Haven't built yi as bruiser yet, but I'm guessing fratma's is probably the best combination of damage + tank stats. You get AD, crit, armor, health, and more cc to help chase. Even champs with escapes won't be able to outrun Icy + Highlander (+ youmuu + ghost).
edit: I also think QSS -> mercurial would be a good choice if you keep getting stunned/knocked up/knocked back/rooted in late-game.
ive been jungling yi also with some success. ive been favoring wriggles as my life steal item, then shiv, then ie. ive gotten quadra kills just with wriggles and shiv. why wriggles? after a few levels one q will kill the small creeps, and then you can kill the main one very fast with wriggles.
you build does sound interesting though, i think i will try it next time i yi.
edit: I have seen some wriggles - youmuu rush yi's that have done very well also.
I don't understand the obsession with Shiv or BotrK on Yi.
BotrK is an amazing item because the active is amazing but ulted Yi runs at near double the movespeed of anyone on the map anyway, so the superior lifesteal/damage from hydra/BT is just better, honestly even wriggles is better.
Shiv makes sense for 2 things, poke, and Trynd, because Trynd gets near 100% crit w/o PD, on Yi who is getting most of his damage from Autos the attack speed and extra crit is relevant.
It's rare that Yi actually gets to attack with 100% of his attack speed because he's melee. Furthermore, each Alpha Strike charges up a LOT of Shiv's counter, and Shiv rewards you when you can't attack a standing-still target and have to move between attacks.
Yi's Q procs Elder Lizard. And ppl go nuts over Shiv because his Q procs it, and almost instantly refills the Shiv. If done right, you will literally see Shiv going off every 1-2 seconds as you Q through their entire team. Personally, I love Ghostblade simply because you get a mini-Highlander that stacks with the first one, so you can chase down (or run away from) literally ANYONE on the map really easily. And Ghostblade + BT + Highlander means you will chunk down so many people.
Met my first Yi in ranked (don't play often) Wow. The guy just melted people. If we were at all low and you saw highlander activated and an alpha strike, you may as well got up to get some food or something. BT+Shiv+IE+PD. If he ever got stopped that was another but wow, if your (non-slow) cc was on cooldown... gg.
So shiv>pd, and hydra's buildup makes infinitely better than bt... It seems like my build is a winner!
Honestly though, I want to know if anyone has tried stopping at 2 offensive items and then going randuins+visage. It makes your team fight so much better, since you don't instantly blow up, and w is useful again.
I find the timing for Yi's defensive items is extremely awkward. Something like bloodthirster/ghost blade/zerkers is 6600 gold, which only really leaves enough time for one major defensive item before the average game finishes. Given this timing window, I think GA is the best defensive item you can buy as Yi. The reset is incredibly valuable. I suppose you could split your cash between Warden's Mail, a giant's belt, and a negatron, which is pretty much identical to GA in cost, but you have more health. I don't know if that's any better though.
Also I tried Shiv out, and I think its quite strong. It charges almost instantly because:
1. Alpha strike movement counts, and if you land it on 4 targets its approximately 40% worth of charge. 2. Double strike counts as two autos netting you another 20% worth of charge. 3. You move obscenely fast when you're using Highlander.
So a few more autos while moving, and you get another shiv proc. I don't really think it replaces ghost blade, but it serves as a nice compliment. Thinking a core of BT/shiv/ghostblade lets you explode squishes so quickly, it may be worth it to get this over defensive items...
So maybe zerkers/BT/shiv/ghostblade/GA/randuins as a 6 item build.
I hate hydra on Yi, I really don't see any reason to get it, it just doesn't compliment his kit as well as BT, given how much he autos and benefits from raw AD. I guess the build path is a little smoother? But it costs more, so that's kind of a wash. Not a huge fan of BotRK either because it doesn't really give enough raw AD, and I don't think Yi has problems bursting down an individual target. It may be more worthwhile against tankier targets, but I'm not especially convinced (and those aren't really your targets as Yi unless they're the only ones left).
Played a game with a Yi jungle, he really had no impact on early game, just farmed up and mabey had one or two successful ganks.
Suddenly get to mid game and Yi gets two quads outta nowhere, and finishes the game up with a penta.
And im sitting on cait with the same amount of kills (before the quads/pentas) and way more cs, wondering how Yi did it. Like i was not even in the fights most of the time, we would 4v5 and come out on top as long as yi got the resets.
Not sure if I'm a decent Yi player or if he's just broken as shit. But he's carrying me up the ranks >.>
I've become a believer in Hydra/Shiv. Very smooth build and you clear like a mofo. Zephyr first was pretty bad, but I still like BT/Zephyr combo. I did an IE/Shiv build as well that nuked shit, but that really requires you to be ahead.
On August 08 2013 16:25 Requizen wrote: Not sure if I'm a decent Yi player or if he's just broken as shit. But he's carrying me up the ranks >.>
A bit of both I think. - considering I've seen all sorts of Yi builds hard carry something seems a bit off.
I still run him with Muramana (go max CDR and a lot AS so I need a colossal manapool), the single target damage become simply rediculous. Starting with Tear makes laningphase so easy, only time I don't get it is if I get first blood - then I go for a snowbally item like Brutalizer. Against harass champions I plop some points into meditate before focusing on his E - still max Q first - and bank on my lategame power.
Regarding building him bruiserish - Visage + Randuins - that is how I prefer going for lategame where the enemy team otherwise have the option to just simply blow you up instantly.
On August 07 2013 13:49 Brambled wrote: So how are you guys opening up with lane Yi?
At the moment it honestly seems like you can start whatever you want if you just get a bit of sustain be it Flask or whatever. So just go with your gut-instinct.
Which runes do you guys use? Personally I go AS reds, LS quints, Armor and the standard Flat/Scaling MR (against AD composition I get flat CDR blues to start with 10%).
Completely unrelated to League: In english do you use " - blablabla - " as often in danish when you make a small in-sentence speculative/thought/mention as in Danish?
Completely unrelated to League: In english do you use " - blablabla - " as often in danish when you make a small in-sentence speculative/thought/mention as in Danish?
I don't see it often, but it's still usable. I usually use parentheses instead, but either work.
Shiv sounds great on Yi, not convinced he needs a pushing item like hydra but I guess there's no reason not to.
Completely unrelated to League: In english do you use " - blablabla - " as often in danish when you make a small in-sentence speculative/thought/mention as in Danish?
Completely unrelated to League: In english do you use " - blablabla - " as often in danish when you make a small in-sentence speculative/thought/mention as in Danish?
I don't see it often, but it's still usable. I usually use parentheses instead, but either work.
Shiv sounds great on Yi, not convinced he needs a pushing item like hydra but I guess there's no reason not to.
Hydra isn't necessarily just for pushing. There was math somewhere in GD recently, but basically Hydra is amazing on any AD melee champion. It has a much smoother build path than BT or IE as well, which helps in his mid-game, which can have issues.
From a pure power perspective, AD/Crit stuff like IE/Shiv/LW is more powerful, or maybe something like BT/Zephyr/LW, but you can't necessarily just farm to BFS like a marksman can every game. For example, Teemo is the fucking bane of my existence top lane. Getting to a BFS in any decent amount of time requires lots of ganks or a shitty Teemo.
On August 09 2013 01:30 Requizen wrote: For example, Teemo is the fucking bane of my existence top lane. Getting to a BFS in any decent amount of time requires lots of ganks or a shitty Teemo.
Last time I played vs a Teemo I defaulted to "turn Yi into a manaless champion" aka Tear build. Free Q farm and meditate whenever it's off CD takes care of his harass.
Yeah I know. I'm in love with Tear. - think it's a solid situational item on him. I'm just a bad that cannot manage mana without it and thus almost always want it.
much like on other champs, while the math suggests that things like bt and hydra are superior items, i think in actual practice rushing botrk is probably strongest. the active can be the difference between getting that first kill/reset or tip the scales in a 1v1 several times throughout a game.
anyone tried the diamondprox 14/3/13 tiger udyr dblade start in the jungle? only did it once, but started the game 5-0 and obv it felt really strong.
The thing with Blade though is that your Alpha Strike is significantly weaker with it than with BT or Hydra. I have never won a Yi vs Yi duel in blind picks when I rush Blade and they get a BT. This is with just Greaves and the single damage item. Their Alpha strike chunks you, and yours is much weaker. The active helps, but you still lose.
Also the more crit you get, the worse it is for the Blade Yi. Since Alpha Strike can crit, the more AD you have the higher your initial burst is and the more true damage you're doing per hit.
Jungle Yi benefits from BotRK better than something like BT/SHiv/Hydra early or mid game because of the 1v1 or 2v1 potential and getting that crucial reset in your first team fight. Late game it isn't really that important, probably only want to use it for it's active on the squishy adc in the back line after your Alpha Strike through their front line.
After playing him more, I feel like you have to treat him as a bruiser-type adc, whether you play him top, mid, or jungle. Obviously team comp will dictate what you build first, but his core items should be Shiv, BT, and Ghostblade with Zerker Greaves. Shiv is there because you get a nice 1-2 punch of Q + auto-attack with Shiv proc. BT is for life steal mainly after building up stacks on it, and the bonus AD is nice too. Ghostblade is for the CDR, armor pen, and the "run away" active if you get caught out alone with Highlander on CD, or to "extend" your Highlander even longer if you don't get a normal reset. If you are looking for a defensive item, GA, Frozen Mallet or Randuin's is what I'd recommend, as one lets you get a "reset" while the other two stop the enemy team from disengaging/run away, short of a hard cc. I've yet to test it out, but I feel like his 6th item should be Mercurial Scimitar, because of the QSS active built into it, plus the additional MR and AD helps too.
Anyone have thoughts on using IBG as your single armour item? 70 armour is a very respectable amount, and the sheen passive adds to your first hit Shiv burst after you alpha strike in. The only other option for a defensive item on the armour side with offensive stats is Atma's but you aren't really stacking hp.
It's less about sticking to people and more about the part where you get an extra 125% total AD added onto your burst for your first hit to stack with your Shiv and possibly Hydra. Also if they're slowed you get more auto attacks in before you have to reposition so you're using more of your AS.
The main nerfs that should hit Yi are a reduction of his bonus AD to his Q by some amount, probably to like 50% of his AD to the Q as bonus damage, and have Shiv not build while he moves around with his Q. His true damage bonus seems fine after those changrs, as It still lets him dunk people late game, but have It take more like 4-5 hits Instead of 2-3, which few people outside of pro leagues could react to In time If they don't see him coming.
On August 10 2013 10:15 Magus wrote: It's less about sticking to people and more about the part where you get an extra 125% total AD added onto your burst for your first hit to stack with your Shiv and possibly Hydra. Also if they're slowed you get more auto attacks in before you have to reposition so you're using more of your AS.
Any sheen based item that isn't lichbane only gives extra damage equal to a % of the champion's base damage when it procs, not total damage. So it isn't that great really.
I have just been going Botrk + bruta + LW then ghostblade, followed by a ga. R->E->Flash Q Ignite (use both items) then just spam right click and q on squishies and win the teamfight. 2.5 as with 250 ad and shitton of armor pen means dead people fast. Both his E and passive work so well with AS >.<
It seems that people are buying botrk almost exclusively for the CC because Yi already has e for true damage and the botrk doesn't give very much to yi's kit compared to BT or Hydra except for the CC on the active. Personally I'd go for Hydra.
i think someone mentioned it before, but cutlass might be a big reason botrk seems to work better than it would appear on paper. it seems to me that rushing cutlass gives you a nice early game window to get your snowball rolling that uncompleted tiamat or bloodthirster pieces don't.
with all the success with varied builds that people seem to have, the path and timing of getting your dps items seems much more important than which particular ones you get. later in the game i'm pretty sure you could just randomly pick 3 items that have some kind of AD/AS/crit on them and still pass the dps threshold required to wreck fools, regardless of which items you ended up with.
also i'm not sure that the effect of adding ranged cc to a melee champ who is balanced around not having any cc at all, should be taken that lightly.
you don't need cutlass when you run twice as fast as your opponent. again, with a brutalizer (which is a shitload more damage than blade) Highlander is only 5 sec more cd than botrk.
botrk Yi is just another example of people not thinking about their builds and just getting the same thing reguardless of situation.
botrk is a great item on yi. You only get 25%/35%/45% ms with his ult. That's not twice as fast as everybody. Yi is squishy as fuck and you only have a limited time before they have backup/get under a tower. Slowing them/speeding yourself up more is very useful at winning small battles. More AS+sticking power=more AA's=more likely to get an extra Q to get the kill.
If you're using highlander and you successfully alpha strike on your target, they should almost never get away, unless they have flash or you get cced because you're moving 100 movement speed faster than them (approximately), anything more than that is largely irrelevant.
I highly disagree BotRK is most useful in small fights. It is least useful in small fights, because you don't have to deal with a full team of cc and sticking to an individual target (or two) should be completely trivial if you're using highlander. If you're getting it to stick to an individual target in a 1v1 or 2v2, you're probably getting BotRK for the wrong reasons, because Yi does not struggle with that. You're also overlooking the fact building an item with more AD means the enemy explodes sooner so they have less time to walk back.
How many times are you realistically going to be fighting them in a 1v2 situation with all of their skills still up? How does BotRK fix any of that if you get cced immediately after leaving alpha strike? Your primary target is probably out of range by the time you could use the active, especially if it's in a gank situation in bottom lane.
Well, why not get Cutlass and just leave it at that for a while? The upgrade to bork is 1800, that's a lot of fuckin money. Why not use it for a Tiamat/BF (depending on if you want Hydra or BT) or start your Ghostblade? It's not like Cutlass is terrible on its own, and the big reason to get BorK is the active anyway.
Is there something I'm missing? Cutlass is 1400 iirc.
On August 13 2013 03:47 Seuss wrote: I previously had done some math which showed Master Yi doing 650+ damage with Alpha Strike crits via IE. Upon doing some testing I've discovered I was wrong.
Alpha Strike does damage equal to 60% of your AD on a "crit", not 60% of Alpha Strike's normal damage. As a result, the damage from an Alpha Strike crit is "only" 550-600 with just IE.
(55+3*18+70)AD*(1+.9)+165ADRatio~505 (55+3+18*70)AD*(1)+165~344 on non crits (75% of the time).
Both numbers are pretty bonkers for a skill that resets like Yi's. I guess you must have counted the crit mastery and one set of AD runes or something. The old Q definitely had more burst early on with 300 magic damage for AD Yi. I always felt that was a weakness of Yi's was that he'd never have good burst. Now, if he gets enough AD he's going to burst hard too? That's not right. Well I dunno, I guess the burst is only slightly higher than Tryn's or Fiora's before their autos start destroying. The resets and the fact that it's an easy to land AoE just make it seem stronger than the counterpart abilities now that it has so much AD scaling.
idk, I can dodge a lot of shit with that Q. On the list so far is Annie ult, Taric E, Lulu W, Zac E, and a bunch of other crap. Reportedly somebody dodged a Rammus Taunt (E?) as well. Counterplay OP.
On August 14 2013 07:42 VashTS wrote: idk, I can dodge a lot of shit with that Q. On the list so far is Annie ult, Taric E, Lulu W, Zac E, and a bunch of other crap. Reportedly somebody dodged a Rammus Taunt (E?) as well. Counterplay OP.
When you just kinda press Q while running directly at someone (very fast), especially at lower elo, they unload their CC when you get into range, and if your range is anything close to their range, you begin alpha strike before the CC lands. No skill involved, their CC whiffs. I've missed more than a few Lulu polymorphs and other CC due to this, now i just exhaust first, and i don't use any hard CC until after he gets one alpha off.
So with Yi, if you Q a minion, then smite the minion, you will return to your original position and get some damage on up to 3 targets behind the minion. This could be useful knowledge for jungle Yi. I've been aware that you don't teleport if your target dies before the Q animation ends, but to be able to reliably cause Q harass safely is really good.
On August 26 2013 12:44 obesechicken13 wrote: So with Yi, if you Q a minion, then smite the minion, you will return to your original position and get some damage on up to 3 targets behind the minion. This could be useful knowledge for jungle Yi. I've been aware that you don't teleport if your target dies before the Q animation ends, but to be able to reliably cause Q harass safely is really good.
It's always been like this. It was part of what made AP Yi really annoying to deal with in lane on top of his insane W sustain.
On August 26 2013 12:44 obesechicken13 wrote: So with Yi, if you Q a minion, then smite the minion, you will return to your original position and get some damage on up to 3 targets behind the minion. This could be useful knowledge for jungle Yi. I've been aware that you don't teleport if your target dies before the Q animation ends, but to be able to reliably cause Q harass safely is really good.
It's always been like this. It was part of what made AP Yi really annoying to deal with in lane on top of his insane W sustain.
I know.
Smite makes it much more reliable and easier to harass when you don't have that perfect minion to Q to.
It's actually not too hard to get to IE if you're just farm laning it. There are some lanes that you just straight up can't fight, but at the same time you can farm with Q, sustain with W (which is bloody cheap now), and you shouldn't get caught in a lot of ganks thanks to your high MS. You can also negate many dives with Meditate's DR/healing and Alpha's invuln moment.
Not the safest laner in the game, but there are very few lanes where I'd straight up quit life, like Teemo, for instance. The rest are workable.
Edit: The OP is so out of date but I've already written like 3~4 guides for this site and I'm really bad >.>
Can we talk about runes for a second? Specifically Quints and Reds considering Armor Yellow/MR Blues are the same thing every time ever.
For Reds, AD is the best, right? Like, ArPen is good because you're all physical damage, but considering your AoE has a 1:1 AD scaling and can crit and your steroid is True Damage that scales off AD, I think it's safe to say you can do without ArPen outside of masteries until you hit LW.
As for Quints, I'm torn between AD, MS, and Lifesteal. AD as above. Lifesteal makes sense because it means you don't necessarily need to always spam your W as much. However, as you are still a melee autoattacker and need to stick, isn't MS the smartest option?
are you talking about laning or jungle yi? Definitely no on armor pen anything.
For jungle Yi AD reds are good but IMO AS reds are just as good if not better, since both his passive and E scale with AS. It's true that his E scales off of AD but it has a very poor ratio (1.1 total AD at level 1, 1.2 total AD at level 5), so it gets almost no help from runes.
MS seems meh, he already has a gap-closer and his ult gives him a ridiculous MS boost. Lifesteal is good but he already has W for sustain. I don't really like running lifesteal except on ADCs and auto-attackers with no sustain (like Jax). The cooldown on W is long and the mana-cost was just given a huge buff, so spamming W isn't really a concern. AD is always a solid choice for auto-attackers like Yi.
I would go AD/AD for lane Yi and AS/AD for jungle yi
Mostly for laning. I haven't honestly played him in jungle a lot, I generally prefer someone with better ganking prowess. I don't think he's a bad jungler, just one I haven't used often.
My thing with MS quints is that, while yes you have Q and R, at every other point you're just running. And bet your money as soon as you pop either or both, someone will toss a stray stun or root at you and then suddenly you're impotently trying to get to someone so you can auto and lower Alpha Strike's CD. With the number of CCs, knockbacks, and jumps/dashes in the game right now, even with Highlander up it's not always that easy to stick to targets. Though, that could just be me not positioning/engaging correctly.
AD is likely the better option. I would definitely agree with AS on jungle, though.
On November 09 2013 03:22 Requizen wrote: My thing with MS quints is that, while yes you have Q and R, at every other point you're just running. And bet your money as soon as you pop either or both, someone will toss a stray stun or root at you and then suddenly you're impotently trying to get to someone so you can auto and lower Alpha Strike's CD. With the number of CCs, knockbacks, and jumps/dashes in the game right now, even with Highlander up it's not always that easy to stick to targets. Though, that could just be me not positioning/engaging correctly.
I don't agree with this logic, it's true for any champion chasing any other champion, and suddenly it looks good to put MS quints on every single champ in every single role, which we know isn't true.
Highlander gives +25/35/45% MS. If you can't catch someone with that and a gap-closer that dodges spells then an extra 4.5% MS from runes won't make any difference.
On November 09 2013 03:22 Requizen wrote: My thing with MS quints is that, while yes you have Q and R, at every other point you're just running. And bet your money as soon as you pop either or both, someone will toss a stray stun or root at you and then suddenly you're impotently trying to get to someone so you can auto and lower Alpha Strike's CD. With the number of CCs, knockbacks, and jumps/dashes in the game right now, even with Highlander up it's not always that easy to stick to targets. Though, that could just be me not positioning/engaging correctly.
I don't agree with this logic, it's true for any champion chasing any other champion, and suddenly it looks good to put MS quints on every single champ in every single role, which we know isn't true.
Highlander gives +25/35/45% MS. If you can't catch someone with that and a gap-closer that dodges spells then an extra 4.5% MS from runes won't make any difference.
Hm, disagree. Many other chasing champions have some form of range or CC to help their chase. In the form of slows/stuns (Trynd, Aatrox, Sion, Gangplank), you cannot mitigate these outside of Tenacity or blowing a CD like Cleanse, QSS, or the like. Once Yi closes the gap on you, if you stun/snare him while Highlander is up you can mitigate a good portion of his chasing/sticking prowess.
So either you have to save Highlander for after they CC you (in which case you want to be fast enough to threaten them beforehand) or you use it and get CC'd (in which case you want to be fast enough after it wears off). Considering the amount of CCs and mobility in the game right now, 10 seconds of a sprint isn't that much, in my humble opinion.
Highlander is basically a ghost that ignores slows, and can be extended further by kills/assists. At level 3 it actually gives more MS than ghost. On top of that alpha strike dodges most spells and has 600 range.
If you can't catch someone with all of that, they can't be caught period. I've never needed MS quints to catch anyone with Yi, with higlander he has more mobility than probably 95% of the champs in the game. If you truly think that 10 seconds of +25/35/45% MS "isn't that much" then you are beyond convincing and there's really no point in me even trying to argue.
On May 03 2014 07:25 Lightswarm wrote: I was wonder what people's opinion on Master Yi jungle with Feral Flare. Has anyone thought about ways to countering the speed of the farm?
On May 03 2014 07:25 Lightswarm wrote: I was wonder what people's opinion on Master Yi jungle with Feral Flare. Has anyone thought about ways to countering the speed of the farm?
On May 03 2014 07:25 Lightswarm wrote: I was wonder what people's opinion on Master Yi jungle with Feral Flare. Has anyone thought about ways to countering the speed of the farm?
My way would be to pick Vi into it and try to snowball lanes as much as you can while Yi farms his feral flare. That way, when he gets out of the jungle with Feral Flare, he has a nice and shiny item to shove up his ass while your laners kill his laners and mutilate their corpses. Hell, give him a wits end as well right when his feral flare is completed and he still won't be able to carry shit.
If you want to go farm for farm though, I don't know if any other jungler can go farm for farm and win the game with no difference in laners.
Vi wouldn't be my prime lane-pressure pick probably Evelynn or Lee Sin would be the best for that style of play Nocturne is very painful to splitpush against so he works really well in his own way against Yi
Can't you just invade him and maul him with something like Shaco or Udyr? I picked Nocturne against a Tryndamere, went red to red and stole it (got his ghost for my flash, I kept my blue afterwards), counterganked him when they thought they'd get an easy 3v1 dive on Aatrox with his passive down and even though Trynd got an assist I got a kill. After that he was massively behind, and by warding his red I killed him there again (being behind in exp and giving the 2nd blue to Fizz meant I was 6 when he wasn't yet).
Yi's stronger off no farm and jungles faster but I'm pretty sure if your laners are strong early you can invade him to set him behind.
Tryndamere is a special champion to counterjungle against because Tryn usually tries to stay at 200-300 hp in the jungle if there's no or little threat of getting killed Yi is very different
the problem is how fast yi gets to farm up after getting wriggles. the 30% bonus gold makes it so that you can usually get 2~2.5 core items up and running around the 15-17 min mark. I usually have ff (~25 stacks)/youmuu/cutlass by 20 min if im just jungling the camps like crazy, so even if you do delay yi's farm early on, he does catch back up rather quickly. and the only thing yi really needs is 1 good cleanup of teamfights. there doesnt seem to be many ways to control him unless you specifically design a super cc-heavy team
Keep all your stuns for him in a teamfight, and burst him down. My main weapons vs yi pick is : high burst dmg champ with lots of cc in lanes (no nida/no nasus/no cait/no graves/ no soraka ...) AND i pick xin jungle, so i can make a lot more efficient early ganks and i'm also able to crush him 1v1 at any point of the game (even if he has like 3 or 4 more kill than me). Of course don't build xin tanky in soloQ, it needs to have good teammates to work, build him 80%dmg 20%survive the initiale stun/burst. Yi can't win this if your team is playing safe.
On May 04 2014 04:13 derc wrote: Keep all your stuns for him in a teamfight, and burst him down. My main weapons vs yi pick is : high burst dmg champ with lots of cc in lanes (no nida/no nasus/no cait/no graves/ no soraka ...) AND i pick xin jungle, so i can make a lot more efficient early ganks and i'm also able to crush him 1v1 at any point of the game (even if he has like 3 or 4 more kill than me). Of course don't build xin tanky in soloQ, it needs to have good teammates to work, build him 80%dmg 20%survive the initiale stun/burst. Yi can't win this if your team is playing safe.
imo there needs to be more item abilities to deal with stuff like jungle yi. item actives have been notoriously underwhelming, particularly lacking in good cc
On May 04 2014 04:13 derc wrote: Keep all your stuns for him in a teamfight, and burst him down. My main weapons vs yi pick is : high burst dmg champ with lots of cc in lanes (no nida/no nasus/no cait/no graves/ no soraka ...) AND i pick xin jungle, so i can make a lot more efficient early ganks and i'm also able to crush him 1v1 at any point of the game (even if he has like 3 or 4 more kill than me). Of course don't build xin tanky in soloQ, it needs to have good teammates to work, build him 80%dmg 20%survive the initiale stun/burst. Yi can't win this if your team is playing safe.
imo there needs to be more item abilities to deal with stuff like jungle yi. item actives have been notoriously underwhelming, particularly lacking in good cc
Can I kindly request that at least in strategy forum we avoid balance/design whine, for my sanity's sake.
I would however question the idea that Xin beats Yi 1v1, that is simply not the case from my experience.
On May 04 2014 04:13 derc wrote: Keep all your stuns for him in a teamfight, and burst him down. My main weapons vs yi pick is : high burst dmg champ with lots of cc in lanes (no nida/no nasus/no cait/no graves/ no soraka ...) AND i pick xin jungle, so i can make a lot more efficient early ganks and i'm also able to crush him 1v1 at any point of the game (even if he has like 3 or 4 more kill than me). Of course don't build xin tanky in soloQ, it needs to have good teammates to work, build him 80%dmg 20%survive the initiale stun/burst. Yi can't win this if your team is playing safe.
imo there needs to be more item abilities to deal with stuff like jungle yi. item actives have been notoriously underwhelming, particularly lacking in good cc
Can I kindly request that at least in strategy forum we avoid balance/design whine, for my sanity's sake.
I would however question the idea that Xin beats Yi 1v1, that is simply not the case from my experience.
From my experience yi with feral flare has a huge power spike during mid-game and he can even if not rly fed, 1v1 every single champion except a few who have high burst and a stun. Without stuns it's almost impossible to kill even in 1v2. To me, with Udyr, he is right now one of the two most broken champs atm as he can't be rly punished in every phase of the game (ez to escape, can't be 1v1 in jungle), and also extremely easy to play. Now he is worse than the Vi of a few months back in those aspects.
Things are even worse now that champion design has moved away from point-and-click CC to skillshots; Yi's immunity to slows, insane movespeed, and random teleport/invincibility with Alpha Strike means that, essentially, you can't hit him with skillshots.
On May 05 2014 00:57 entropius wrote: Things are even worse now that champion design has moved away from point-and-click CC to skillshots; Yi's immunity to slows, insane movespeed, and random teleport/invincibility with Alpha Strike means that, essentially, you can't hit him with skillshots.
Which is also why things like Amumu/WW are great against Yi. It's pretty much fail safe.
out of curiosity, how fast are you guys getting your items up on yi jg. for me, FF comes up at around 17 min (15 min if i have kills). I typically have enough for 2.5-3 core items (FF/ghost/cutlass) around the 22-25 min mark
I feel that getting close to 20 stacks by 10 minutes is not too difficult at all. The other 10 stacks will take some effort because I will be "distracted" by things such as dragons and tower sieges, so it largely varies.
I like to smash jngl yi with Trundle. Moreover i always mostly go for a earlyganker when I have to jngl vs feral flare newbs, my favorite atm is Eve. We often end up with a huge earlygame Advantage through kills, first drake and so on. If you've done a good Job, the opponent team will immediately start flaming their jngler since he'll never appear early on! :D But as I figured out, you really need to take the advantage early on, if you mess up you're pretty **** later. So you either go for a super aggressive early-mid game comb and try to win super fast, or you get an earlyganker with at least a Jax or similar champs and help to feed them. Or you go for a ff-champ too and....yeah. I just don't like it, way too boring for my gamestyle.
In the end it's the usual thing, you just need to adapt to be succesful. Sry for bringing this discussion back, wasn't able to write about the ff-stuff above since I almost never use it.
I recently play gragas in the jungle from time to time, if yi alphas you und you bodyslam anywhere he is hit and cced, brought him into my team twice for instakill xD (i know very specific matchup but fun none the less)
On May 20 2014 20:38 Earthqu4ke wrote: I like to smash jngl yi with Trundle. Moreover i always mostly go for a earlyganker when I have to jngl vs feral flare newbs, my favorite atm is Eve. We often end up with a huge earlygame Advantage through kills, first drake and so on. If you've done a good Job, the opponent team will immediately start flaming their jngler since he'll never appear early on! :D But as I figured out, you really need to take the advantage early on, if you mess up you're pretty **** later. So you either go for a super aggressive early-mid game comb and try to win super fast, or you get an earlyganker with at least a Jax or similar champs and help to feed them. Or you go for a ff-champ too and....yeah. I just don't like it, way too boring for my gamestyle.
In the end it's the usual thing, you just need to adapt to be succesful. Sry for bringing this discussion back, wasn't able to write about the ff-stuff above since I almost never use it.
On May 20 2014 20:38 Earthqu4ke wrote: I like to smash jngl yi with Trundle. Moreover i always mostly go for a earlyganker when I have to jngl vs feral flare newbs, my favorite atm is Eve. We often end up with a huge earlygame Advantage through kills, first drake and so on. If you've done a good Job, the opponent team will immediately start flaming their jngler since he'll never appear early on! :D But as I figured out, you really need to take the advantage early on, if you mess up you're pretty **** later. So you either go for a super aggressive early-mid game comb and try to win super fast, or you get an earlyganker with at least a Jax or similar champs and help to feed them. Or you go for a ff-champ too and....yeah. I just don't like it, way too boring for my gamestyle.
In the end it's the usual thing, you just need to adapt to be succesful. Sry for bringing this discussion back, wasn't able to write about the ff-stuff above since I almost never use it.
How does Trundle beat Yi with a Flare again?
Beat yi early game (ie before 2-3 items up). Do not let yi get 5-6 items on you
On May 20 2014 20:38 Earthqu4ke wrote: I like to smash jngl yi with Trundle. Moreover i always mostly go for a earlyganker when I have to jngl vs feral flare newbs, my favorite atm is Eve. We often end up with a huge earlygame Advantage through kills, first drake and so on. If you've done a good Job, the opponent team will immediately start flaming their jngler since he'll never appear early on! :D But as I figured out, you really need to take the advantage early on, if you mess up you're pretty **** later. So you either go for a super aggressive early-mid game comb and try to win super fast, or you get an earlyganker with at least a Jax or similar champs and help to feed them. Or you go for a ff-champ too and....yeah. I just don't like it, way too boring for my gamestyle.
In the end it's the usual thing, you just need to adapt to be succesful. Sry for bringing this discussion back, wasn't able to write about the ff-stuff above since I almost never use it.
How does Trundle beat Yi with a Flare again?
Botrk + sunfire + ulti = gg wp. I'm talking as top Trundle, not jungle.
I know Vi can take Yi down by lane pressure but... I beat a Master Yi (jungle, has feral flare) mano e mano with Vi (jungle, doesn't have feral flare). After 40 minute mark. Twice. Actually I beat him every single time except once. And that one time I lost to him, I had 2500+ unspent gold before the 20 minute mark (replace my giant's belt with randuins and give me a ruby crystal, I could easily take him down that time too imo).
Well, I can imagine that you can beat Yi with Vi if you have your Q or R rdy to deny his meditate. Otherwise he may finish you with meditation into Q. That's why CC and stuff absolutely destroys Yi.
On May 21 2014 20:52 Djagulingu wrote: I know Vi can take Yi down by lane pressure but... I beat a Master Yi (jungle, has feral flare) mano e mano with Vi (jungle, doesn't have feral flare). After 40 minute mark. Twice. Actually I beat him every single time except once. And that one time I lost to him, I had 2500+ unspent gold before the 20 minute mark (replace my giant's belt with randuins and give me a ruby crystal, I could easily take him down that time too imo).
I mean, how's that even possible?
i really want to face ur vi against my yi. ff/gb/botrk/ie at 28 min really doenst seem fair even when team is behind
Before the new patch (5.1) my build on Yi top was very reliant on Infinity Edge as it was an item that allowed me to backdoor very efficiently (the 80 bonus AD does work on turrets) and to 1v1 people with ease too. I am basically splitpushing all game as Yi top.
Here is the detail of the build :
Blade of the ruined king first, no matter what. Second, Infinite edge if ahead. If behind, Last whisper against a tanky opponent and Ghostblade against a squishy one. Third, Infinite edge or LW/Ghostblade based on what I bought second.
After that I can buy pretty much anything I want according to the situation.
My question is : should I keep relying on Infinite Edge after its nerf ? Given the IE nerf and the buff to Phantom Dancer, would it be a better plan to integrate Phantom dancer into my build as a core item and to stop building IE ?
Infinite Edge would still be a good backdoor item but I think its 1v1 potential will be significantly affected by the nerf, whereas the 35% critical chance on Phantom Dancer is very appealing to me as a Yi player, given the fact that the rest of PD's stats are good for Yi too.
I play a lot of Yi lane, mostly top, but sometimes even mid. I have no idea why people don't consider him as a laner, but strictly jungle. He is so much more fun in lane and he can actually hold his own against almost anything you throw at him, especially top (he needs longer lane to utilize his trades better)
Now on topic:
I never understood how to itemize Yi the best. I have the feeling that no matter what items, he performs arguably the same. Botrk first I agree 100%, no matter what is going on this is mandatory. After that I tried ghostblade or static shiv. Somehow I like shiv better, no idea why. Then 3rd item I go with IE and then I often even go tanky items like BVail, Tornmail, Warmog . But even when I want to add more damage I go with BT or Trinity, somehow I avoid LW due to his E and the fact that mostly I am going for their carries when I fight and there you dont really need LW. Maybe Phantom dancer is a good 2nd item to consider now. At least in my build path
p.s For whoever is interested in lane Yi, after many tests I think 2 Life Steal quints are the most optimal solution. With a doran or 2 you have the needed sustain in lane. Its better then attack speed quints, coz you don;t need these in lane so much. However, jungling is better with AS quints
What do you mean when you say he can "hold his own" toplane ?
I'm not an elite player, that's for sure, but from what I understand Yi is at a pretty big disadvantage against a lot of toplaners and his laning phase is often very passive, the aim being to outscale your opponent.
Sure, you can dominate a lane against some champions (tanks in general, Riven if you play very well), but against a lot of popular toplane picks you don't even stand a chance before you reach at least 2 items.
Pantheon, Darius, Irelia, Wukong, Fiora, Jarvan, Tryndamere, and pretty much every "fighter" type toplaner utterly destroy Master Yi early on. Maybe I'm unlucky but I keep running into precisely these champs in solo queue and laning against them is all about farming under tower, crying for ganks and waiting for items.
Sure, you have some unexpectedly okay matchups like Riven who can be defeated (although you need to be better than her) or Gnar who's actually quite easy in my opinion but that's not much really.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, though.
As far as items are concerned, after a few tests it seems like Infinite Edge is still a core item and way better than pretty much anything else on Yi. I'll do a bit more testing before I definitely set my opinion on this but you need some kind of big AD item and IE fits the role perfectly.
The notion that Yi can hold his own in top lane is being extremely generous. By holding his own you probably mean "farm til 6 then exert pressure after that" but he doesn't exert any real pressure whatsoever until level 6. Being able to just sit and not die in lane isn't particularly useful. Against opponents who don't know what they're doing or have little cc it might work, but you could say the same for pretty much any champion.
Yi isn't played top because everyone shits on him, he's susceptible to ganks and his main ability pushes the wave. Why wouldn't you just play Tryndamere? Better sustain, has an escape, doesn't just lose every lane and has good scaling.
On January 16 2015 10:28 GolemMadness wrote: Yi isn't played top because everyone shits on him, he's susceptible to ganks and his main ability pushes the wave. Why wouldn't you just play Tryndamere? Better sustain, has an escape, doesn't just lose every lane and has good scaling.
I think the only reason why you'd take Yi over Tryndamere is because of the scaling. If you farm right and refrain from feeding you have the potential to carry a game 1v5 as Master Yi, because not only are you a splitpush god (like Tryndamere) but you can also single handedly destroy a teamfight if you play your cards right, whereas Tryndamere kinda relies on your team having a good engage for you or someone in the enemy team messing up and allowing you to get to him. When I get to 6 items on Yi I'm pretty sure my winrate is close to 100%, you can do everything on your own really.
All things considered, Trynda is still the better pick by far though. And if my aim was purely to gain LP while playing solo queue I'd spam Tryndamere but Yi is way more fun to me, although being bullied in 75% of your lane matchups can be a bit upsetting sometimes, especially when your team is feeding and you know that you can't even try to "make plays" to compensate by winning your lane.
I don;t know, excluding Fiora (fuck that bitch) all other top lanes are a skill match up for me even before 6. I won pantheon, darius etc. if u manage to dodge their primary Q damage with your Q, you win the trade with good margin. Irelia with her forever lasting stun is annoying but can be beaten. I play at gold 1 - plat 5 lvl, perhaps at higher levels is harder, no idea. Perhaps is the fact that i played a lot of yi lane and know the champ capabilities, while people don't know what to expect against lane yi..
On equal footing, most champions can be beat with Master Yi. If you take a look at how Cowsep approaches things, the main key is to dodge crowd control with Alpha and/or Meditate to dodge high burst damage.
An example is against Riven. Normally that matchup goes the following way: Riven stuns you, does her shit, and you die. But if you can dodge the stun with Alpha Strike (hard to time), and meditate her windslash, it becomes a fairly easy matchup because you do have high raw damage. Unfortunately, it's hard to play it perfectly all the time, which makes Yi mad hard to play.
On January 17 2015 04:40 Lost My Will To Live wrote: On equal footing, most champions can be beat with Master Yi. If you take a look at how Cowsep approaches things, the main key is to dodge crowd control with Alpha and/or Meditate to dodge high burst damage.
An example is against Riven. Normally that matchup goes the following way: Riven stuns you, does her shit, and you die. But if you can dodge the stun with Alpha Strike (hard to time), and meditate her windslash, it becomes a fairly easy matchup because you do have high raw damage. Unfortunately, it's hard to play it perfectly all the time, which makes Yi mad hard to play.
Thing is, against Riven dodging the knockup negates so much damage that it can actually create a trade in your favor, but not every champion has a dodgeable high damage cc and not every champion is threatened if you dodge one of their spells.
Irelia's stun can't be dodged for example and I don't see how an Irelia who is as good as the Master Yi she faces could lose lane to him.
In Pantheon's case, yes you can dodge the stun if you're really precise with your Alpha strike, but even if you do dodge it (which is no easy task) you still cannot trade favorably : you will have two auto attacks blocked, which denies most of your damage anyway, and meanwhile he'll still have two very high damage abilities up.
This is why Yi is a weak laner in my opinion (although he's my main toplane champion and got me into plat, so i'm not saying he just blows and shouldn't be picked). With Alpha strike you have the potential to negate a good part of your opponent's damage and to get guaranteed damage on him (at least alpha damage plus one auto). The problem is, that's very good against champions who rely heavily on one ability, but if you're up against a champion that has more than one very dangerous ability you really can't do much as you have no tool to fight aside from your Q.
And more often than not toplaners are champions that offer a large set of dangerous abilities. Which means that toplane "fighters" tend to counter Yi naturally as far as early laning is concerned, and that's also the reason why Korean players prefer mid Yi. I have tested mid Yi myself and there is definitely less pressure there imo, because against most midlaners if you can dodge their one strong initiate/cc ability (Lux's cage, Ahri's heart, Orianna's ball move/w combo, Yasuo's tornado) you're going to be fine and they won't be able to touch you or trade with you.
Wasn't mentioning simply top lane Yi. Was talking Yi in general, and the key is "most". Yes, there are matchups where you just flat out lose, and that's why you come to the conclusion that mid Yi is better than top Yi because it's true that Master Yi has always and will always love killing squishy targets with little or no CC abilities to stop them. Even if they have CC, if it's not literally almost instant, then there's outplay potential. But even if it's the case, it's still hard to time the Alpha.
EPT
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