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On July 13 2011 02:48 scDeluX wrote:
I've played him 2-3 times in 3v3 and I always goes
Wriggles -->boots --> Lantern --> Mercs --> Wits End or Sash (If they have like ww and malz)
Spirit visage could also be a good idea. Honestly he builds just like ww. Trinity would be good but its too long to get in 3s.
He is quite dominant I love him. Got me ranked 200!
wait... wut?
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He prolly means Razor, silly Smash.
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So how exactly do pheonix and tiger stack up to each other these days? I know that's kind of a lazy, vague question but I don't understand the advantages one provides over the other. Pheonix seems more suitable for a tank build with mallet and no wriggles or something where you just get continous aoe dots over the course of a fight, is this correct?
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Don't like spirit visage on udyr at all. You rarely use turtle stance for the sustain in teamfights because doing more damage increases your lifesteal more anyway, you just use it for the shield. CDR again is good on everyone but it's not the best stat. I feel like spending 1500-1600 on spirit visage to be such a waste when you could be on your way to a force of nature or warmogs or something which makes you noticeably more powerful.
On July 13 2011 03:03 UniversalSnip wrote:
So how exactly do pheonix and tiger stack up to each other these days? I know that's kind of a lazy, vague question but I don't understand the advantages one provides over the other. Pheonix seems more suitable for a tank build with mallet and no wriggles or something where you just get continous aoe dots over the course of a fight, is this correct?
Pheonix is pretty worthless people only build it to clear the jungle slightly faster it relies far too much on constantly hitting targets and tiger does more of that anyway. I don't understand what pheonix has to do with tanking, udyr has no way to stay alive under focus fire, you will only get one turtle stance. All the good tanks have high base damage and cc. Jarvan/amumu AoE cc the whole team when they go in and do a lot of initation damage. Sure you can theoretically stun the whole team with bear but it takes so long to reach people and you just get owned by aoe damage and ranged carries. Better have the burst cc and focus of udyr onto carry divers and when the majority of the burst aoe damage bullshit is gone you rape everyone 1v1 and can clean up fights really well.
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On July 13 2011 03:04 Slayer91 wrote:Don't like spirit visage on udyr at all. You rarely use turtle stance for the sustain in teamfights because doing more damage increases your lifesteal more anyway, you just use it for the shield. CDR again is good on everyone but it's not the best stat. I feel like spending 1500-1600 on spirit visage to be such a waste when you could be on your way to a force of nature or warmogs or something which makes you noticeably more powerful. Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 03:03 UniversalSnip wrote:
So how exactly do pheonix and tiger stack up to each other these days? I know that's kind of a lazy, vague question but I don't understand the advantages one provides over the other. Pheonix seems more suitable for a tank build with mallet and no wriggles or something where you just get continous aoe dots over the course of a fight, is this correct? Pheonix is pretty worthless people only build it to clear the jungle slightly faster it relies far too much on constantly hitting targets and tiger does more of that anyway. I don't understand what pheonix has to do with tanking, udyr has no way to stay alive under focus fire, you will only get one turtle stance. All the good tanks have high base damage and cc. Jarvan/amumu AoE cc the whole team when they go in and do a lot of initation damage. Sure you can theoretically stun the whole team with bear but it takes so long to reach people and you just get owned by aoe damage and ranged carries. Better have the burst cc and focus of udyr onto carry divers and when the majority of the burst aoe damage bullshit is gone you rape everyone 1v1 and can clean up fights really well.
pheonix has to do with tanking because you can build straight tank items and play like singed whereas with tiger you need to build tanky dps
whatever I'll just figure it out myself.
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Except pheonix damage is absolutely nothing like singed the dot does barely any damage the large majority comes from the 3 strike hit and attack damage boost. Singed is unkillable and has insane flip/slow which means he can just dive the carries and flip them and do lots of damage while putting the squishies out of position and they can't do much about it before their ranged carry gets a lot of items, while udyr can easily be focused down under CC.
Anyway, for I'll add my own jungle udyr guide since I'm now GOLD ELO which means I can pretend I'm a somewhat decent player.
Masteries:
21/0/9.
Runes:
Quints: AD
Marks: AD or Arp
Seals: Flat armour
Glyphs: MR/lvl
Summoners: Flash/Smite
Skill order: QWQE Q>W>E Take E at level 3 if you need to gank an overextending mid after wraiths.
Jungle route: Standard blue-->wolves-->wraiths-->Red-->golems-->back
Item build: Vampsceptre --> Boots --> Wriggles --> Mercs (you can get berserkers or tabi if appropriate)
Standard: HoG-->Wit's end-->Phage-->Force of nature-->Randuins omen.
When to get trinity force: Your team has a tank/bruiser that dives carries and their team is more based on other bruisers like nocturne and warwick who are after yours.
Why not to get trinity force normally: 2x AP 1x AD ranged line just destroys you before you do any damage, or at least makes you too scared to want to go in.
Standard build is very flexible;
Drop randuins if they don't have a very strong AD.
Drop Force of nature if they don't have very strong AP.
Drop HoG if you don't intend to get randuins.
Phage can be delayed but it's very strong on udyr.
If you are not getting Force of nature i.e they are mostly ad based you can get zeal and phage for your mobility and then finish trinity after picking up a chain mail, get randuins after.
Lategame:
Warmogs is good, Atmas is good, Madreds bloodrazor/Blood thirster for even more damage.
Aegis I used to get and might go back to it, I'm not sure. Movement speed/attack speed slow on randuins/FoN are very important to udyr.
Teamfighting: You can't play like a normal solo top bruiser their team CAN blow you up instantly if you go far in the front like a tank. If they initiate on you Flash away and then stay and defend the back line since with turtle stance your sustain against 1-2 targets is huge and you have bear stance. If you need to initiate on a mispositioned team ping and flash-->stun. Make sure you hit your bear early so you have Q up on CD when you want your burst.
Once a teamfight has started you should be in bear stance, mostly you should be trying to avoid any unnecessary damage and defend your carries from bruisers. If you have an irelia or someone locking down their AD you can run into an a squishy with Turtle-->bear-->tiger. As udyr I feel like I'm always tag teaming with someone instead of just straight up 1v1ing. Your stun and burst adds a lot to the damage and you can spam turtle and bear if you're getting attacked too much to do damage.
Once most of their damage is gone for example their AD carry died or they used all their ultimates you are basically free to do whatever you want, catch ppl with E-->Q, stay alive with W-->E. 1v1 with W-->Q. You kill everyone is 1v1 type situations so once the heavy burst is gone you tend to be good at cleaning up a teamfight.
I'll update this more its hard to explain what you do in LoL because you do most things just by looking at the fight and making the decisions based on feel.
I'll add stuff on lane udyr when I get more experience with him, it's pretty similar though, except you no longer need to be afraid about getting focused because of the level and farm advantage means you can just shit all over their team as long as you don't let yourself get kited trying to dive carries like irelia.
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Wit's End over Hexdrinker on Tigerdyr? God I couldn't even remember the name anymore lol... is that why you don't buy it?
AD should give you more effective damage than ASpd, at least that's what I think.
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Wits end gives you 42 AD as magic damage. Magic damage isn't bad since most non double ap teams are AD heavy anyway, so you get more AD out of wits end, that why I buy it. The attack speed really useful for other stances also.
Usually people get hexdrinker on people that rely more on AD ratio abilities. Udyr has a total ad ratio scaling of 1.7 which is much lower than someone like garen or renekton or jarman so wits end is way better since most of your damage is auto attack based.
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so i finally stopped jungling udyr and tried to lane him and got my second solo queue loss with him 
to be fair i think i was playing ~alright~ but all other lanes were bad, but at the same point, i didn't feel as dominant as i do with jungle udyr. maxing turtle just feels silly to me.
but on the plus side, udyr is still just super OP so no matter what build i do on him i win. i think i'm at 76% win with him, closer to 90% in solo queue. i've tried every build i can imagine on him to great success
mallet + cleaver
wits end + phage + starks
triforce + tank
pure tank + sheen
bloodrazor + triforce
even against a team that had janna/ashe/karthus, who are IMO the biggest nightmares for udyr thanks to their kiting prowess, i just run people over regardless of my build. is udyr really that OP? cause i definitely don't think i'm exactly a prodigy.
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Any way to effectively counter-pick an udyr?
My team always seems to struggle against udyr lategame, feeded or other.
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well udyr has to get in melee range, so anything that excels at kiting or slowing the opponent
janna
singed
ashe
nunu
mundo
etc etc
if udyr begins to get fed, make sure someone begins to build a frozen mallet if you don't have the required cc to perma lock him
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AD carries with last whisper, AP carries with void staff, anyone with kiting especially if you have all 3 rape udyr.
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I think last two times I played Udyr other team picked ashe and anivia. Those games were fucked up and made me not play him again lol.
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yeah udyr's biggest counters are ashe, anivia, karthus, janna imo
janna kites you for days and days, anivia and karthus just throw down their AOE+slow bullshit and killing them doesn't even accomplish anything anyways, and ashe has too much CC for a carry
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It's easy to kite udyr as ez once you get triforce too
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Jax is a soft-counter to Udyr since Udyr is very auto-attack dependent (afaik bear form stun can still be dodged). Jax vs udyr solo lane is a close match that Jax generally wins, though both champs are very easy to gank early on, and the one that gets a lead first can snowball pretty easily.
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On July 18 2011 11:40 Flakes wrote:
Jax is a soft-counter to Udyr since Udyr is very auto-attack dependent (afaik bear form stun can still be dodged). Jax vs udyr solo lane is a close match that Jax generally wins, though both champs are very easy to gank early on, and the one that gets a lead first can snowball pretty easily.
I had a Jax going vs Udyr on my team yesterday, and that Udyr was the worst player on the enemy team. Jax still lost to Udyr all the time despite me (successfully) ganking the lane multiple times.
Could just be the Jax player being even worse than the Udyr though.
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Udyr rapes jax because he just gets all his health back and jax isn't better 1v1 till lategame anyway, also its kind of like udyr can recover from dying once while jax is totally fucked. Same with ganks, if you gank an udyr he easily gets his health back and W versus harass while jax can't cs any more.
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I like to use ghost when jungling udyr since sometimes I gank at level 3 with level 2 tiger stance and level 1 bearstance.
Ghost + Bearstance gank @ level 3 (after wraiths) nets me first blood 50% of the time, and pretty much forces the mid lane to b 90% of the time.
I want to try and start laning udyr but just thinking about how it would work hurts my head. Can anyone give me a solid build (skills to level at each level and items to get) so I can try it out?
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EPT
