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On July 08 2012 22:41 Slayer91 wrote:
It's very situational. Basically udyr is really versatile so everything can be very variable. A few points to consider:
-Udyr lacks any form of burst his longest possible cd is 6 seconds meaning you want the fight to go long to make up for your lack of high cd abilities ultis especially.
-This means stopping anyone from your team insta dying is generally your highest priority unless you can support another team member kill one of theirs. (4v4 is better than 5v5 for udyr - the less people in the teamfight the longer a teamfight lasts and the better you become)
-Udyr is quite weak against burst damage because normally, if you burst a malph or amumu he gets his full combo off and focusing him is generally a bad idea. Udyrs survivability comes frmo W spamming which means you can get bursted like anyone else with the same items. If you get bursted you did nothing in the teamfight except soak damage for a few seconds but generally that's not too viable.
Which follows into basic guidelines:
-Attack the highest DPS target whenever possible (reducing the amount of damage that is available to kill you)
-Avoid any situations where you will can take lots of damage without your team being able to immeditaley take advantage because you can't do much damage in 2 seconds which is enough time to take away half your hp.
-Don't put yourself in a situation where you can be kited around because it means you're arent being effective and taking free damage.
In teamfights it normally works like this:
-Their team engages:
If they catch one of your squishies the natural reaction should be to run over to their carries and stun them to prevent them getting in range and start putting the hurt on so they can't follow up. This is typical against a tank engage say malphite ult. Hitting malphite just gets your attack speed slowed and it's not malphite that the threat is
If they engage on you or another tank you want to just stun and shield and run away, let your ranged guys counter the damage to their tanks and continue the poke war from there.
If they have bruisers like irelia etc who are engaging you probably want to just stun them and back off, make them take free damage. If 1 bruiser engages and you run in 1v4 you'll just get bursted. This happens in the first situation but thereyour squishy is caught meaning youhave to risk something to save him and you have to remember if situation 1 you just want to stop their carry following up the cc and then get out of there.
Once the engage is completed and nobody is immeditely going to die (maybe they'll die in a chase or during a more prolonged fight) you go back to the basics and try to hit their highest DPS targets. The way to know when you want to go on them or not is: If they're not attacking anyone but you, you should back off and stun some bruisers on the way. If they're a threat to the rest of your team, that's when you go on them and start killing them. It also means your team is more in range to help you and you're not too far out to get away should they all turn against you.
If your team engages generally you want to follow up on whatever they engaged on but if they start aoe's like morgana ult you need to AVOID that damage. You won't do anything useful in 2 seconds but losing half your hp under morg ult will lose you teamfights. If you can't follow up just stun tanks to set up your ap and ad to damage them and go in later when the time is right.
If you tower dive them this is a really bad situation for you because you can't chase down an ad carry becuase of all the towers meaning you want to minimize commiment and only stun the front lines and dive only if you are sure of the kill.
If they dive you at most want to stun their divers but the main priority is dpsing the squishies who are trying to follow up the dive and chase them off thereby splitting their team.
Sorry I couldn't make this more concise but udyr teamfighting is just really hard because he has no direct role in the teamfight.
Also I wouldn't get aegis and chain mail before at least a recurve bow if not wits. Udyr is primarily a bruiser that means your DPS is your main threat and your tankiness is merely a tool to get in range. Your 1 secnod cc is useable but there are people who do way more in terms of peeling and can also initiate to use those tank stats. If your damage becomes irrelevant against their squishiest targets your usefullness drops drastically compared to any other jungler so you need to get a wits end at least and then later on if you're tanky enough a stinger or a trinity force.
This is generally why I don't like playing udyr. You want to be tanky, but at the same time you want to do damage.
You have to get offensive and defensive items but since offensive items scale together, and defensive items scale together, you just feel really weak overall.
The only chance you get is to be really strong in the mid-game, where people don't have a lot of multiplicative scaling yet, where udyr's base stats are high, and udyr's passive + tiger/phoenix stance grant him high damage, and fights are between a small number of people, so the fight goes on longer, so he can use his abilities more often.
But of course, jungle udyr has to gank a lane where there are no wards in order to do something midgame. This means he probably needs to get an oracles since all the lanes ward. Twitch and Nocturne don't have this problem. Even someone like fiddles can surprise people with an ult, and rammus is just fast. Then late game, fiddles and rammus do more AoE damage than udyr. Rammus probably still can stay near an enemy team with his shield up, and taunt the AD carry into killing themselves. Nocturne can catch people out of position or carries arriving to a fight, and Twitch is an AD carry once he starts making up for his lack of farm in the jungle. (I pick kayle and twitch if I'm jungle and we don't have an AD carry).
Late game he just doesn't seem that great, so even if he wins the lane top, or gets a lot of successful ganks as jungle udyr, other tops can scale better than he can if the game drags on.
I just don't get why people say he's so strong.
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On July 09 2012 02:14 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 22:41 Slayer91 wrote:
It's very situational. Basically udyr is really versatile so everything can be very variable. A few points to consider:
-Udyr lacks any form of burst his longest possible cd is 6 seconds meaning you want the fight to go long to make up for your lack of high cd abilities ultis especially.
-This means stopping anyone from your team insta dying is generally your highest priority unless you can support another team member kill one of theirs. (4v4 is better than 5v5 for udyr - the less people in the teamfight the longer a teamfight lasts and the better you become)
-Udyr is quite weak against burst damage because normally, if you burst a malph or amumu he gets his full combo off and focusing him is generally a bad idea. Udyrs survivability comes frmo W spamming which means you can get bursted like anyone else with the same items. If you get bursted you did nothing in the teamfight except soak damage for a few seconds but generally that's not too viable.
Which follows into basic guidelines:
-Attack the highest DPS target whenever possible (reducing the amount of damage that is available to kill you)
-Avoid any situations where you will can take lots of damage without your team being able to immeditaley take advantage because you can't do much damage in 2 seconds which is enough time to take away half your hp.
-Don't put yourself in a situation where you can be kited around because it means you're arent being effective and taking free damage.
In teamfights it normally works like this:
-Their team engages:
If they catch one of your squishies the natural reaction should be to run over to their carries and stun them to prevent them getting in range and start putting the hurt on so they can't follow up. This is typical against a tank engage say malphite ult. Hitting malphite just gets your attack speed slowed and it's not malphite that the threat is
If they engage on you or another tank you want to just stun and shield and run away, let your ranged guys counter the damage to their tanks and continue the poke war from there.
If they have bruisers like irelia etc who are engaging you probably want to just stun them and back off, make them take free damage. If 1 bruiser engages and you run in 1v4 you'll just get bursted. This happens in the first situation but thereyour squishy is caught meaning youhave to risk something to save him and you have to remember if situation 1 you just want to stop their carry following up the cc and then get out of there.
Once the engage is completed and nobody is immeditely going to die (maybe they'll die in a chase or during a more prolonged fight) you go back to the basics and try to hit their highest DPS targets. The way to know when you want to go on them or not is: If they're not attacking anyone but you, you should back off and stun some bruisers on the way. If they're a threat to the rest of your team, that's when you go on them and start killing them. It also means your team is more in range to help you and you're not too far out to get away should they all turn against you.
If your team engages generally you want to follow up on whatever they engaged on but if they start aoe's like morgana ult you need to AVOID that damage. You won't do anything useful in 2 seconds but losing half your hp under morg ult will lose you teamfights. If you can't follow up just stun tanks to set up your ap and ad to damage them and go in later when the time is right.
If you tower dive them this is a really bad situation for you because you can't chase down an ad carry becuase of all the towers meaning you want to minimize commiment and only stun the front lines and dive only if you are sure of the kill.
If they dive you at most want to stun their divers but the main priority is dpsing the squishies who are trying to follow up the dive and chase them off thereby splitting their team.
Sorry I couldn't make this more concise but udyr teamfighting is just really hard because he has no direct role in the teamfight.
Also I wouldn't get aegis and chain mail before at least a recurve bow if not wits. Udyr is primarily a bruiser that means your DPS is your main threat and your tankiness is merely a tool to get in range. Your 1 secnod cc is useable but there are people who do way more in terms of peeling and can also initiate to use those tank stats. If your damage becomes irrelevant against their squishiest targets your usefullness drops drastically compared to any other jungler so you need to get a wits end at least and then later on if you're tanky enough a stinger or a trinity force. This is generally why I don't like playing udyr. You want to be tanky, but at the same time you want to do damage. You have to get offensive and defensive items but since offensive items scale together, and defensive items scale together, you just feel really weak overall. The only chance you get is to be really strong in the mid-game, where people don't have a lot of multiplicative scaling yet, where udyr's base stats are high, and udyr's passive + tiger/phoenix stance grant him high damage, and fights are between a small number of people, so the fight goes on longer, so he can use his abilities more often. But of course, jungle udyr has to gank a lane where there are no wards in order to do something midgame. This means he probably needs to get an oracles since all the lanes ward. Twitch and Nocturne don't have this problem. Even someone like fiddles can surprise people with an ult, and rammus is just fast. Then late game, fiddles and rammus do more AoE damage than udyr. Rammus probably still can stay near an enemy team with his shield up, and taunt the AD carry into killing themselves. Nocturne can catch people out of position or carries arriving to a fight, and Twitch is an AD carry once he starts making up for his lack of farm in the jungle. Late game he just doesn't seem that great, so even if he wins the lane top, or gets a lot of successful ganks as jungle udyr, other tops can scale better than he can if the game drags on.
Multiplicative scaling is mostly just an AD carry thing, with crit. Udyr's pheonix stance is essentially a 94 AD steriod, wits is another 42 AD steriod, you have 30% built in. Squishies don't build many tank stats so your damage scales just fine later on. It's your tankiness that gets hurt later, but every bruiser suffers this problem, it's just most have burst of some kind. Lategame udyr is pretty decent, but ad carries dominate late game and always have, so you get overshadowed.
You can get around wards, there's no guarantee that they constantly have wards up 24/7, and you can go from lane or behind enemy tower or wait for them to ward in brush or oracles as you said, and udyr isn't a gank reliant jungle.
On July 09 2012 02:14 obesechicken13 wrote:
I just don't get why people say he's so strong.
You want replays?
Also lategame isn't everything.
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Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 02:14 obesechicken13 wrote:
I just don't get why people say he's so strong. You want replays?
I don't know. I've seen stonewall do fine with udyr, and I myself have probably had a few good games as him, but usually I think we'd just get fed early on in lucky situations where the lanes weren't warded and or the enemy team's lanes didn't run any escape summoners. In short I could have won with any better ganking jungler
My main question is: if a jungler like udyr can't carry late game, and he isn't a great ganker early/mid game, then what good is he?
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Dominating the jungle. No one fucks with Udyr in the jungle and only few can brawl it out with him. I win almost all my Udyr games by stealing half the enemy buffs (although thats because junglers at my elo let me), counterganking when I am near and only ever ganking when a lane is very overextended.
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He can counter jungle pretty good and his clear times are blazingly fast with him never going low in the jungle ( having faster clear times means he can gank more). he gets pretty tanky even without items and with a wits his damage is just fine late mid late game. He can carry late game as a fantastic tank. Philo hog wits core is a fantastic build as an aoe speed boost into an aoe slow works really well with him. His ganks are really high damage with a little tiger before phenoix and after bear. (extra 45% as buff and a 30 +1.5 ad dot from your first strike). having an almost on demand hard stun is really nice for late game for channels and causing a bunch of trouble stoping the enemy team from doing a lot of stuff if they get constantly 1 second stunned.
Its just another way to do tanking. Rammus's powerball can't navigate teamfights when someone else other then the ad carry is going to take the powerball shot. udyr is going to be able to just run stright at the enemy ad carry and force the enemy team to do something about you. Its hard to really describe why udyr works when he doesn't have an ult and just does stuff. I really like him though and I think hes really fun.
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On July 09 2012 03:17 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 02:14 obesechicken13 wrote:
I just don't get why people say he's so strong. You want replays? I don't know. I've seen stonewall do fine with udyr, and I myself have probably had a few good games as him, but usually I think we'd just get fed early on in lucky situations where the lanes weren't warded and or the enemy team's lanes didn't run any escape summoners. In short I could have won with any better ganking jungler My main question is: if a jungler like udyr can't carry late game, and he isn't a great ganker early/mid game, then what good is he?
When I play Udyr, I pick him with one of 2 objectives:
1. Safety. If I'm picking first, I usually go w/ Udyr b/c he is a jack of all trades and a very SAFE jungler. Nobody's going into my jungle alone and stealing my buffs or camps w/o a high risk of getting killed. He's fast, he's a super strong duelist, and has good ganks w/ summoners.
2. Shutting down the enemy Jungler: If I'm picking second and pick Udyr, it's because I want to exploit a specific matchup(ie Nautilus, Alistar, etc.). I'm going into their jungle @ lvl 2 and killing the enemy jungler. Basically, my one role during laning phase is the make the enemy jungler non-existant. By taking his camps and/or killing him in his jungle, I'm basically taking away his farm and EXP, so then when he DOES go to gank, he is both predictable and an easy target to kill. If I kill him @ lvl 2 and smite steal his red, I'll be @ lvl 9-10 when he hits 6. That basically means w/ Oracles I can go into his jungle whenever I want and kill him, either forcing the lanes to go into the jungle and lose out farm, or forcing him to gank the lanes constantly, leeching exp from the lanes, and making him predictable.
I think you're stuck in the thinking that the jungler's 1 role is to Gank and support the lanes. This is COMPLETELY wrong, and why you are not using Udyr to his full potential. Udyr does not need to gank(you still gank when you see the opportunity) to stay even w/ the lanes, he can farm the jungle fast enough where gank gold becomes irrelevant. The only time I gank is either when I see the opportunity, or when my lane is absolutely getting crushed.
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Carry is such a stupid word. Anyone can carry in lategame if you play your cards right with your team. Udyrs strong at all points of the game with a power peak in the midgame. (Ganking isn't a midgame thing, midgame is when teamfights are happening not so much laning)
Udyr jungles and ganks much faster than anyone else allowing him to reactively gank better than pretty much any other jungler while his actual ganks are harder to pull off you have a bigger window to get them in.
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On July 09 2012 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
Dorans are dead end items.
Wriggles helps you win lane. You get lifesteal from turtle, you get lifesteal from wriggles. Both good. Armour, AD, a ward, lifesteal, all the stats you need to trade against physical damage laners.
The only stat that is wasted on wriggles is lifesteal and even that isn't really bad at all.
Wriggles is investing twice as much into dead end items as picking up 2 dorans. Dorans gives you HP, AD, lifesteal - roughly the same as Armor AD lifesteal. You don't need all the lifesteal it gives you, 2 dorans gives the same AD, nothing stops you from buying a ward here and there, and you can get your core items (phage + real tank items) much earlier.
Ultimately, I'd rather spend 950 on dead-end items than 1600. Especially because when I buy the first doran, I don't commit to buying the second one. And if I do my first back with like 1600 gold ever on udyr, why am I buying lifesteal armor item when I can clearly stay in lane for a long time without it? just pick up a phage and a ward at that point, and go back to lane with similar durability/AD (only slightly less) but greatly increased kill potential due to Phage synergizing rather well with Tiger Udyr's kit.
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I mean the whole term dead end items is kind of silly. You will never get to the point you will have to sell your dorans or your wriggles anyway. It's just about stat cost efficiency and wriggles has that.
I don't know what lanes you are playing that feel like you don't need any extra lifesteal but I generally find its a very useful thing to have you obviously don't NEED it but you don't NEED phage either.
HP isnt the same as armour either, you haev spammable shield for hp, armour helps you sustain a lot more as does the lifesteal. Letting you be defensiv better, trade better, or be offensive by harassing under tower when they last hit with W and Q and then healing back on the next wave.
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Wriggles is amazing toplane in certain matchups. It's not always good, but against certain lanes, if you pick up a wriggles you can literally right-click the enemy off of creeps because you have too much sustain for them to fight through, and too much damage for them to ignore. The combination of doing more damage, taking less damage, and lifestealing is just too good against some champions.
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Even after the nerf wriggles is still one of the most cost efficient laning items. I'm not entirely sure why wriggles has fallen off so drastically over the past couple of months. It's still a great item.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 09 2012 04:05 Slayer91 wrote:
Carry is such a stupid word. Anyone can carry in lategame if you play your cards right with your team. Udyrs strong at all points of the game with a power peak in the midgame. (Ganking isn't a midgame thing, midgame is when teamfights are happening not so much laning)
Nah, the word carry is fine. It's just that the LoL community generally misuses it in such a way that it's not actually useful for any sort of productive discussion.
On July 09 2012 05:17 koreasilver wrote:
Even after the nerf wriggles is still one of the most cost efficient laning items. I'm not entirely sure why wriggles has fallen off so drastically over the past couple of months. It's still a great item.
If anything, the nerfs to Wriggle's have hit it more in the jungle than in lane. It's still very smooth to get on a lot of laners, whereas a lot of the junglers that used to get it either aren't that strong in the new jungle, or will consider other paths of item development.
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On July 09 2012 05:12 Amui wrote:
Wriggles is amazing toplane in certain matchups. It's not always good, but against certain lanes, if you pick up a wriggles you can literally right-click the enemy off of creeps because you have too much sustain for them to fight through, and too much damage for them to ignore. The combination of doing more damage, taking less damage, and lifestealing is just too good against some champions. But you get your damage, lifesteal and armor more effectively by getting something like 2xdoran+vest. The wards aside,
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On July 09 2012 09:49 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 05:12 Amui wrote:
Wriggles is amazing toplane in certain matchups. It's not always good, but against certain lanes, if you pick up a wriggles you can literally right-click the enemy off of creeps because you have too much sustain for them to fight through, and too much damage for them to ignore. The combination of doing more damage, taking less damage, and lifestealing is just too good against some champions. But you get your damage, lifesteal and armor more effectively by getting something like 2xdoran+vest. The wards aside,
ward is approximately equivalent to a gold/10 (a little less, but w/e). 12% lifesteal vs. 6% lifesteal isn't a trivial difference. 2xdoran+vest eats 3 item slots while wriggle's eats 1. doran's blades sell for 50% returns, wriggle's sells for 70% returns and also is less likely to be sold due to taking up less space.
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On July 09 2012 11:08 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 09:49 brolaf wrote:On July 09 2012 05:12 Amui wrote:
Wriggles is amazing toplane in certain matchups. It's not always good, but against certain lanes, if you pick up a wriggles you can literally right-click the enemy off of creeps because you have too much sustain for them to fight through, and too much damage for them to ignore. The combination of doing more damage, taking less damage, and lifestealing is just too good against some champions. But you get your damage, lifesteal and armor more effectively by getting something like 2xdoran+vest. The wards aside, ward is approximately equivalent to a gold/10 (a little less, but w/e). 12% lifesteal vs. 6% lifesteal isn't a trivial difference. 2xdoran+vest eats 3 item slots while wriggle's eats 1. doran's blades sell for 50% returns, wriggle's sells for 70% returns and also is less likely to be sold due to taking up less space.
But it's honestly more like 16% vs 22% (That's only level 1 turtle, too.) which is a lot less of a difference than 12 vs 6. And considering the spammable shield is also preventing a lot of the damage in the first place, do you really need like 22-30% lifesteal when you already have a decent amount and a spammable shield?
Sure, there's situations that wriggles is nice - when you need EVERYTHING it grants, including the huge amount of lifesteal you have with it+turtle stance. But I don't really think it's worth defaulting when there are better ways to get AD + defensive stats on the cheap.
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Need is another stupid word. You might not need it, (whatever that means) but it helps in every situation against your average physical damage top laner. If you have to play defensive you'll be able to sustain better, if you're roughly even the lifesteal helps you come out of trades on top and if you're playing offensive you can be more obnoxious with a wriggles and yeah 2 dorans + vest is similar but wriggles gives so much including extra pushing tower which udyr lacks a lot.
Your argument seems to be "you already soak a lot of damage, why would you want to soak more damage?". Well basically the only way to deny someone on udyr is a: harassing them under tower tanking 1-2 shots each time and b: tower diving because the only other option is to freeze the lane which is unreliable and most champs can farm from range and you have to melee them to damage them. Level 9 udyr with wriggles and boots or tabi is all you need to start the whole tower dive/tower harass shit and if you got ganked early or something the wriggles lets you stay in the game easier.
Also, boots, 2 dorans, vest, wards, potions which is want you want to stay in lane, potions can be dropped especially later, takes up every slot, while boots, wriggles, potions, leaves 3-4 slots open. Also don't forget the instant return of 75 gold buying wriggles and then the 75 gold every 2.5 mins. (As smash said basically a gp/10)
Having the slots open allows you to simply buy a quick fix chain mail+negatron after/just before you buy a trinity to very vastly improve your tankiness before getting glacial and other items.
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On July 09 2012 19:15 Slayer91 wrote:
Need is another stupid word. You might not need it, (whatever that means) but it helps in every situation against your average physical damage top laner. If you have to play defensive you'll be able to sustain better, if you're roughly even the lifesteal helps you come out of trades on top and if you're playing offensive you can be more obnoxious with a wriggles and yeah 2 dorans + vest is similar but wriggles gives so much including extra pushing tower which udyr lacks a lot.
Your argument seems to be "you already soak a lot of damage, why would you want to soak more damage?". Well basically the only way to deny someone on udyr is a: harassing them under tower tanking 1-2 shots each time and b: tower diving because the only other option is to freeze the lane which is unreliable and most champs can farm from range and you have to melee them to damage them. Level 9 udyr with wriggles and boots or tabi is all you need to start the whole tower dive/tower harass shit and if you got ganked early or something the wriggles lets you stay in the game easier.
Also, boots, 2 dorans, vest, wards, potions which is want you want to stay in lane, potions can be dropped especially later, takes up every slot, while boots, wriggles, potions, leaves 3-4 slots open. Also don't forget the instant return of 75 gold buying wriggles and then the 75 gold every 2.5 mins. (As smash said basically a gp/10)
Having the slots open allows you to simply buy a quick fix chain mail+negatron after/just before you buy a trinity to very vastly improve your tankiness before getting glacial and other items.
need means its diminishing returns. the relative gain of wrigs is smaller due to udyrs high built in steal
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On July 09 2012 20:41 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 19:15 Slayer91 wrote:
Need is another stupid word. You might not need it, (whatever that means) but it helps in every situation against your average physical damage top laner. If you have to play defensive you'll be able to sustain better, if you're roughly even the lifesteal helps you come out of trades on top and if you're playing offensive you can be more obnoxious with a wriggles and yeah 2 dorans + vest is similar but wriggles gives so much including extra pushing tower which udyr lacks a lot.
Your argument seems to be "you already soak a lot of damage, why would you want to soak more damage?". Well basically the only way to deny someone on udyr is a: harassing them under tower tanking 1-2 shots each time and b: tower diving because the only other option is to freeze the lane which is unreliable and most champs can farm from range and you have to melee them to damage them. Level 9 udyr with wriggles and boots or tabi is all you need to start the whole tower dive/tower harass shit and if you got ganked early or something the wriggles lets you stay in the game easier.
Also, boots, 2 dorans, vest, wards, potions which is want you want to stay in lane, potions can be dropped especially later, takes up every slot, while boots, wriggles, potions, leaves 3-4 slots open. Also don't forget the instant return of 75 gold buying wriggles and then the 75 gold every 2.5 mins. (As smash said basically a gp/10)
Having the slots open allows you to simply buy a quick fix chain mail+negatron after/just before you buy a trinity to very vastly improve your tankiness before getting glacial and other items. need means its diminishing returns. the relative gain of wrigs is smaller due to udyrs high built in steal
Udyr only has high inbuilt lifesteal while in turtle. Generally, you're going to turtle>bear>tiger>back off or turtle>tiger>back off. You actually don't attack while in turtle stance most of the time against anything but creeps. Wriggles allows you to lifesteal with the auto from bear and from every tiger attack which is a non-trivial amount of health in a trade. Even if they do break your shield, you're going to further negate any damage they deal by healing 15+ health per autoattack.
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A large amount of udyr's short-trade damage is magic. You don't build wriggles anymore on a lot of champs that do even more auto damage than Udyr in trades, why is it justified on him? I'd still much rather have either 2 dorans or a phage + ninja tabi than wriggles and boots. Then I want to get to building my core items. Tabi is going to kickstart your trading power against AD champs way earlier than
Also, dorans are useful even when it's a magic damage champ you're up against, and you can pick up a hexdrinker.
My argument is "wriggles is a lot of gold to shoehorn yourself into and doesn't need to be a core item for Udyr. I want my phage and whatever I'm building out of chainmail (fh most often) earlier, not an expensive dead-end item. I'll opt for the cheap dead end item more often than the expensive one.
There's situations wriggles is still great in - when you're up against a heavy physical damage harasser like AD nidalee or something. But if it's a lane where I'm not in danger of getting harassed out or get out-traded constantly, I'm probably not going to pick up a wriggle, because I can keep my health up with a little bit of lifesteal + turtle stance, and have more threat to the enemy laner with earlier phage+tabi, whatever.
Furthermore, Udyr doesn't want to sit in top lane all day. He wants to make things happen elsewhere on the map, because he's not the hardest scaling thing in the universe but is really tough midgame and has a surprising amount of burst with a double-tiger combo if theres an open fight. You might want to come down to push mid tower, help with invades, or secure dragon.
Wriggles feels too much like a "i want to sit in lane all day" choice.
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I have a question on items, what about after for example, Shu, Mercs, Randuins, Mallet, and Wits, Hextech Gunblade as final item? It seems to give nice boost in damage and sustain in fights, and the active is huge for the slow. Im talking about Phoenix Jungle ofcourse.
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EPT
