EPT[Champion] Udyr - Page 34
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
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brolaf
291 Posts
On July 09 2012 21:29 Lmui wrote: Udyr only has high inbuilt lifesteal while in turtle. Generally, you're going to turtle>bear>tiger>back off or turtle>tiger>back off. You actually don't attack while in turtle stance most of the time against anything but creeps. Wriggles allows you to lifesteal with the auto from bear and from every tiger attack which is a non-trivial amount of health in a trade. Even if they do break your shield, you're going to further negate any damage they deal by healing 15+ health per autoattack. life steal doesnt do a ton against typically high armor players, compared to 3 armor minions. especially with the ad reds meta | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23448 Posts
On July 09 2012 22:06 Diderick wrote: I have a question on items, what about after for example, Shu, Mercs, Randuins, Mallet, and Wits, Hextech Gunblade as final item? It seems to give nice boost in damage and sustain in fights, and the active is huge for the slow. Im talking about Phoenix Jungle ofcourse. Mallet and gunblade are both awful. The only other damage item you should consider after wits is trinity force and that's a really good choice, if you're tiger stance LW is good too. Back to the wriggles thing: Almost every time you get udyr someones going to pick ad nidalee or teemo or kayle or kennen or some other physical harasing bastards because he rapes most other champions unless you're talking magic damage in which case you're getting a hexdrinker. Most anyone else you tend to destroy and if you destroy in a straight up fight it means you want to be able to force them out of lane and the way you do that is putting a ward and then harassing them with tiger stance under tower and to sustain that you need lifesteal and armour. Turtle stance gives you a flat amount of health per hit and getting more lifesteal adds to that flat amount and the easier it is to heal up the more agressive you can be. The diminshing returns argument is pretty silly because there is diminishing returns on basically every stat if you want to use that argument. Having lifesteal on turtle stance just makes other stats more valuable like ad and attack speed since they increase the amount stolen which is why wits end is really nice to have. Also I don't see how you play udyr as a champ that doesn't "sit top all day" you get good when you have a ton of farm and you push too slowly to be a huge roaming presence. You want to stay top pretty long and then get into teamfights straight away instead of trying to gank people (lol) or force dragons (you lose tower). For all the talk about pheonix udyr arguably scaling poorly (he is still pretty good though) tiger udyr is pretty sick later since you get enough farm to have a trinity force as well as great tank items and you have the tiger burst damage and ignite as well meaning your Q E Q ignite combo basically one shots ad carries. | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
if you're hellbent on getting damage triforce is probably best. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
And Udyr's damage skyrockets with very few offensive items, both Tiger and Pheonix. If you're not doing any damage then you're doing something very wrong. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On July 09 2012 23:10 Slayer91 wrote: Almost every time you get udyr someones going to pick ad nidalee or teemo or kayle or kennen or some other physical harasing bastards because he rapes most other champions unless you're talking magic damage in which case you're getting a hexdrinker. For all the talk about pheonix udyr arguably scaling poorly (he is still pretty good though) tiger udyr is pretty sick later since you get enough farm to have a trinity force as well as great tank items and you have the tiger burst damage and ignite as well meaning your Q E Q ignite combo basically one shots ad carries. So if you build hexdrinker in lane you'd sell it later (having gotten wit's on the way, worst case you get recurve and when you need the slot sell hex to finish wit's with the money) rather than converting it to MoM? I take from your post that with enough cdr to put your CDs under 5s you can stack tiger procs rather than refresh the duration? Also, how good would Udyr do against Malph? It'd be hard to engage him because of his Q I believe, but he won't damage your much if you have turtle shield up, and with your sustain he'll go oom faster than you, so he can't push you out of lane. On the other hand, he can't stack armor as you only need to get a tiger proc to do a good amount of magic damage, and then a bit of harass to prevent his shield from coming back between procs. Can you beat him or would it be only farming? Final question, because otherwise that dude never shuts up, how would you level Bear stance and your 4th spell? On lane Udyr I take it you pretty much never level Tiger until you're 16, and start WQWE, W > Q > E with a second point in Bear when you feel like it (or you need it for the MS). What about jungling? Do you really need the 5th point in Phoenix or can you start putting more in the others once it's 4, to max Turtle out asap or get an earlier 2nd point in Bear? That would also allow for level 4 Tiger instead of 3, which isn't much but always gives some more damage in case you manage to sneak one up during a teamfight. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23448 Posts
CDR comes from frozen heart, in some cases shurelyas or randuins or blue buff, also the defensive mastery. Udyr is probably strong aganist malph but nobody has ventured to pick malph against me and there's too few other top lane udyrs for me to play the reverse match up. Lane udyr you go QWWE or so into W>Q>E. Pheonix you go RWRE into R>W>E>Q or level 3 E then 5 Q if you decide you don't need the extra speed for example you're getting triforce. Again with the need word. If you're getting pheonix why not max it? It's a really good stance, for clearing and damage. If you want pheonix stance why put 4 points instead of 5? I understand tiger stance is easier to use but how about just learning to use pheonix stance effectively? | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
With "need" I meant "Do you really lose out that much on clear speed if you skip a level or so of phoenix stance, or can you get away with putting points elsewhere instead?", if it's clearer that way. I wouldn't forego max W at level 9 on Mundo just to get a stronger E earlier for example, but as far as Udyr is concerned Phoenix stance doesn't feel that substantial in ganks—then again, my experience with Udyr is pretty nigh as of now so I'm kinda talking out of my ass, hence the questioning. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23448 Posts
On July 10 2012 00:59 Alaric wrote: "It's not like you'll get many opportunities to use either between turtle and bear in those teamfights... ",. Yeah but the people who say this aren't actually very good at udyr 90% of the damage you deal as a pheonix udyr will from pheonix stance and thats proportional to number of ranks you put into pheonix stance. As koreasilver said, udyr is nothing without his damage. There are situations where you use mostly W and E but that's those kind of weird semi engage/poking wars situation in a real TEAMFIGHT where everyone is committed then you use pheonix stance a lot. On July 10 2012 01:05 koreasilver wrote: One of the biggest misconceptions people seem to have about Udyr is this thought that pheonix doesn't do good damage and that to do real damage with Udyr you need to use tiger or something stupid like that. You do a ton of damge with pheonix with just one single item (wits end). I dunno, people just have this obsession with some kind of theoretical super late game lvl 18, 6 item fantasy world when they talk about item builds and skill leveling when almost all your games are NOT going to go to that point or be decided by some final battle where everyone farmed up 20k gold. This is on the money as well I get the feeling koreasilver actually plays udyr quite a bit which is more than I get from a lot of you guys haha. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
 But yeah, what I meant was "with Tiger a single hit is enough, to maximize Phoenix's damage you need to hit thrice". It's not that it's undoable, just that it's slowlier, so proner to being kited or stuff like that. I'll have to see for myself anyway, can't cast aside your experience either. <picture same smiley here, removed for eyesores> | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On July 10 2012 01:27 Alaric wrote: Last time I came here he was free week, I liked him, but I barely buy since I already have 30+ champs and I can give you 10 I'd like to play more/"master" before I delay that by buying new ones, and now I've bought him recently so I come back because I love good bases so as to not "waste" time learning the obvious. But yeah, what I meant was "with Tiger a single hit is enough, to maximize Phoenix's damage you need to hit thrice". It's not that it's undoable, just that it's slowlier, so proner to being kited or stuff like that. I'll have to see for myself anyway, can't cast aside your experience either. <picture same smiley here, removed for eyesores> Tiger's always gonna do more frontloaded burst, but phoenix will do more sustained i'd think. with the AoE from the active + the proc. | ||
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brolaf
291 Posts
On July 10 2012 01:08 Slayer91 wrote: Yeah but the people who say this aren't actually very good at udyr 90% of the damage you deal as a pheonix udyr will from pheonix stance and thats proportional to number of ranks you put into pheonix stance. As koreasilver said, udyr is nothing without his damage. There are situations where you use mostly W and E but that's those kind of weird semi engage/poking wars situation in a real TEAMFIGHT where everyone is committed then you use pheonix stance a lot. This is on the money as well I get the feeling koreasilver actually plays udyr quite a bit which is more than I get from a lot of you guys haha. stunning everyone in enemy team over and over again makes udyr an annoyance, so you could build fulltank and block anyone from diving your carry. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On July 10 2012 01:42 brolaf wrote: stunning everyone in enemy team over and over again makes udyr an annoyance, so you could build fulltank and block anyone from diving your carry. It's a .65 or less second stun on anyone with tenacity. I'd rather have galio. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On July 10 2012 01:42 brolaf wrote: stunning everyone in enemy team over and over again makes udyr an annoyance, so you could build fulltank and block anyone from diving your carry. Or you could just kill them. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23448 Posts
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brolaf
291 Posts
On July 10 2012 02:15 Slayer91 wrote: You can't stun everyone over and over. You stun a couple tanks for 0.65 seconds every 6 seconds and nautilus passive does the same shit except he has so much more to offer. Don't play udyr for cc. Which is why naut is fotm and udyr isnt. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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101toss
3232 Posts
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