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On October 27 2012 15:44 Requizen wrote:
Teach me how to fight as TF. I feel like I just kind of Gold/Red -> Q and then run like hell until they're back up. AmIdoinitrite?
throw cards and poke poke poke, kite like a god and spam q and w on cooldown.
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I think it's also important to lock gold card at the appropriate time (such as when your lane opponent is trying to CS).
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On October 27 2012 17:02 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 15:44 Requizen wrote:
Teach me how to fight as TF. I feel like I just kind of Gold/Red -> Q and then run like hell until they're back up. AmIdoinitrite? throw cards and poke poke poke, kite like a god and spam q and w on cooldown.
or you can play like boss.
get level 6, locate a careless enemy near a bush, ping to your teammates to go there. Pick yellow, teleport. Then autoattack, q, autoattack, ignite. go to your lane.
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Not sure how to build TF with the new items. Should I just stick to ye old DC/LB/Void?
I built Liandry's last night. You get double damage easy because of the stun/slow on W, but only Q procs the burn, and since it's AoE it only works for half, so I don't think it's as good on him as other people (Anivia, Vlad, etc).
Maybe DFG as core? DFG -> W -> Q -> auto until E proc.
Also, Spellsword is a pretty good mastery for him.
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I've been going DFG -> sorcs -> needlessly large/furor boots enchant -> dcap.
DFG comes in near the end of laning so you get of a couple of extreme damage ganks and the furor enchant essentially gives you most of the ms that lichbane lost. Gold them+cards an chase them down or gold -> kite like a boss. As long as you're pulling golds/reds, it's extremely hard to catch you without hard cc.
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On January 25 2013 09:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Originally, I was sticking to AD TF pretty hard, not accepting that AP TF was any good. It seems like it largely wastes Stacked Deck and Pick a Card, but now that I've fiddled with it, I've found this build to work incredibly well. It's not a normal AP build, but I've gotten 11/0, 12/2, 12/1 on my last three victories, and 6/4, 6/4, 3/0 in my last three defeats (and the several games I've played before these that no longer show up in my match history are similar) and I top both teams in CS almost every game. I'm level 28 playing drafts.
Summoner Spells
Ghost
Flash
Runes
Marks of Greater Magic Pen
Seals, Glyphs, Quints of Greater AP
Masteries
22/0/9
Items, In This Order
Doran's Ring x2
Sorcerer's Treads (Homeguard)
Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Nashor's Tooth
Death Cap
Lichbane
Malady
Reasoning:
Summoner Spells
I know that everyone and their mother is incredibly stuck on Flash/Ignite, but I very, very rarely run into a situation where Ignite makes a difference, whereas the extra mobility given by Ghost is incredibly useful. TF is one of the least mobile champions in the game (very slow movement speed, teleport is on a very long cooldown), so mobility REALLY helps his survivability. It also helps significantly when trying to catch fleeing opponents. You may say that you should just get Ignite in that scenario, but a Ghost + Yellow Card + Wild Cards does far more damage than having an Ignite tick away as he runs off. Plus, it also lets you catch and stun half or full-health opponents for your entire team to gank.
Runes
TF is never going to be "tanky" in any sense, as he is one of the squishiest and least mobile characters in the game. Thus, I just go for straight magic pen/AP to maximize my damage output.
Masteries
Honestly, I'm only level 28, and haven't put much thought/study into masteries, so I picked the things that seemed most useful. I picked every mastery that could maximize my damage output as well as picking the two that improve Ghost/Flash, the one that gives increased movement speed out of combat, the one that reduces Summoner spell CD, and Improved Recall (this talent has saved me so many times; .5 seconds makes a big difference).
Items
Dorans Ring x2: As you will be farming mid solo, and assuming you play well, buying a second ring shouldn't hurt your pocketbook too much. Two rings gives a good amount of mana regen (although TF doesn't have huge mana issues due to Blue cards) as well as early AP and health, giving you an edge in early champion fights as well as early survivability.
Boots: Sorcerer's Treads are the no-brainer answer. Homeguard is just awesome because it severely reduced downtime and gets you back into lane very quickly. I am really torn between Homeguard and Alacrity (as the movement speed can really help TF), but I've recognized far more scenarios where Homeguard has made an active difference as compared to Alacrity.
Rylai's: Alright, this is where I start to get weird. My first major item is Rylai's. Why? Three reasons. One, the AP boost is significant. 80 AP is obviously quite good. Two, the health is very, very useful. 500 health is a large chunk, and, as TF is one of the squishiest and least mobile champions, this health makes a difference, especially early-mid game. Finally, and most importantly, the slow. By using this item, every time you hit with any of your abilities (including Blue cards and Stacked Deck), you slow your opponent (if it's a Blue card or Stacked Deck, just as much as a Red card does!). This is incredibly valuable when chasing or in team fights and adds quite a bit of utility to your arsenal. Furthermore, it lets you keep max damage output while chasing opponents; Instead of needing to stun with a Yellow card and not doing a ton of damage, you can do high damage with a Blue card and still slow them.
Nashor's Tooth: Nashor's Tooth is incredibly useful, giving mp/5 (although I don't worry about mana much on TF), CD reduction (amazing for letting you poke more as well as using your ultimate far more often), it gives you a respectable 60 AP, and it increases your attack speed quite a bit. This last part is, as I feel, the most important part, because it puts your Stacked Deck to true use. Yes, if you just go Deathcap -> Lichbane (like normal), your Stacked Deck still does a lot of damage, but you can't rely on it with TF's incredibly slow base attack speed. Increasing his attack speed lets you reliably damage your opponent with Stacked Deck, meaning you are fully utilizing all of your spells. The CDR is nothing to scoff at, either. This, along with the CDR passive from Stacked Deck, reduces the CD on Wild Cards and Pick a Card substantially, which is incredibly important to your poking potential.
Deathcap: Obvious choice for any AP carry. However, I wait for it until third. Why? Because, the Deathcap gives a lot of AP. A LOT. However, it doesn't give ANYTHING else. The utility (survivability, slow) of the Scepter and the damage you get from being able to reliably use Stacked Deck (Nashor's) are far more valuable early and early-mid game. Deathcap's passive really ups your AP once you get into the late-mid game time frame, where you actually have a lot more AP to get a bonus from.
Lichbane: Another staple choice for TF, but fourth. Again, I find that this item's use is limited by TF's attack speed. When TF's attack speed is slow, his wind-up time for his auto-attack is also slow, and ever split second matters in team fights, especially later game. Having the attack speed to back this bad-boy up makes it that much more potent. Also, I don't know if this procs before or after (or both?!) you Pick a Card, or if it procs both when you use Destiny and when you use Gate, but if it did, that would be absolutely sick.
Malady: I was having some trouble picking my last item. I knew I needed some more AP (of course), but I also knew that, more importantly, I needed some MR pen options. However, I've been slightly skeptical of the Void Staff, as I've been in several very late-game scenarios as Karthus (my #2) where he has had Sorcerer's Treads/Void Staff and it simply hasn't cut it. Ultimately, I settled on Malady. The reasoning; while Malady's AP bonus is very low, it gives your auto-attacks quite the punch by adding ~70-some-odd Magic Damage to them every hit. Furthermore, the increased attack speed will have you attacking just as fast as any ADC. Finally, because of the fast attack speed, the MR pen will stack very quickly, and, if I've done my math correctly, Sorcerer's Treads + Full Malady Stacks is more MR pen than Sorcerer's Treads + Void Staff in most situations (unless your target has an insane amount of MR, which is almost never). An argument could be made, saying that Malady only focuses your MR pen on one target. However, TF isn't made like Karthus, Veigar, or Syndra; his AP damage is very focused, with Pick a Card usually only hitting one target (Red card's radius is quite narrow, and the damage is limited anyway), and Wild Cards' hit box is very small with the two side cards flying out at a very wide angle, meaning you probably will only hit one target (unless they're in a line).
Concluding Thoughts
I find TF to be a very difficult champion to do very well as. Whenever I watch people play him, he's always pretty solid, but never really great, and I think it's because of two reasons. 1) His damage is rather mediocre (Karthus, Veigar, Syndra, etc. can severely out-damage him in a short time period) and 2) people really waste the potential of Stacked Deck by forgoing attack speed. I think more players need to look at TF as a utility AP carry (5500 radius teleport, single target stun, AoE slow, high sustain with Blue card mana regen, very long poke with Wild Cards) with a high overall damage potential instead of trying to just maximize the damage from Wild Cards and Pick a Card. Also, throughout my playing career with TF, it has occurred to me that TF is very much gear-dependent; while he can makes some ganks early game, they rely on prolonged pokes with Wild Cards/Pick a Card. His early-game damage potential and survivability is quite low for an AP carry, and he really only starts to outshine others once he can get his second full item past boots. Because of this, his viability in Dominion seems limited (you will rarely get more than two items in a Dominion game and will never complete your build) and he is also rather limited in Twisted Treeline (lack of ability to consistently farm CS at high numbers due to more frequent team fights and a higher risk of ganking). Also, as to TF"s playstyle, he is, of course, a low-survivability poke AP carry, and as such, you have to be really careful about when you engage, and you should never step up into the fight unless your team is at a very clear advantage; if you are focused at all, you are very likely to drop. Also, I find AD TF to be almost completely non-viable now (as opposed to my earlier thoughts), as he has very little survivability or escape capability (his stuns/slows rely on luck and time, as you must not only hit the button once, but must wait for it to flip to the Yellow card and then hit the button again) and, late game, Wild Cards' damage will be almost insignificant without any AP. His farming capability is also much weaker than an AP TF's.
I'd love to hear other's well-thought out critiques of my ideas, as I haven't really run this by anyone yet.
Please for the love of god, no flat AP yellow/blues. Run scaling AP blues (or situationally, flat MR blues), and scaling HP or flat / scaling mana regen or flat armor yellows.
TF also desperately need MS quints.
I only browsed over the rest, but if you build Rylai's as your first item you are probably not going to do very well. You absolutely need to go NLR + Sheen + Sorc Boots as your core, then build to Lich Bane, dcap/zhonya, and go from there.
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On January 25 2013 09:19 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 09:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Originally, I was sticking to AD TF pretty hard, not accepting that AP TF was any good. It seems like it largely wastes Stacked Deck and Pick a Card, but now that I've fiddled with it, I've found this build to work incredibly well. It's not a normal AP build, but I've gotten 11/0, 12/2, 12/1 on my last three victories, and 6/4, 6/4, 3/0 in my last three defeats (and the several games I've played before these that no longer show up in my match history are similar) and I top both teams in CS almost every game. I'm level 28 playing drafts.
Summoner Spells
Ghost
Flash
Runes
Marks of Greater Magic Pen
Seals, Glyphs, Quints of Greater AP
Masteries
22/0/9
Items, In This Order
Doran's Ring x2
Sorcerer's Treads (Homeguard)
Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Nashor's Tooth
Death Cap
Lichbane
Malady
Reasoning:
Summoner Spells
I know that everyone and their mother is incredibly stuck on Flash/Ignite, but I very, very rarely run into a situation where Ignite makes a difference, whereas the extra mobility given by Ghost is incredibly useful. TF is one of the least mobile champions in the game (very slow movement speed, teleport is on a very long cooldown), so mobility REALLY helps his survivability. It also helps significantly when trying to catch fleeing opponents. You may say that you should just get Ignite in that scenario, but a Ghost + Yellow Card + Wild Cards does far more damage than having an Ignite tick away as he runs off. Plus, it also lets you catch and stun half or full-health opponents for your entire team to gank.
Runes
TF is never going to be "tanky" in any sense, as he is one of the squishiest and least mobile characters in the game. Thus, I just go for straight magic pen/AP to maximize my damage output.
Masteries
Honestly, I'm only level 28, and haven't put much thought/study into masteries, so I picked the things that seemed most useful. I picked every mastery that could maximize my damage output as well as picking the two that improve Ghost/Flash, the one that gives increased movement speed out of combat, the one that reduces Summoner spell CD, and Improved Recall (this talent has saved me so many times; .5 seconds makes a big difference).
Items
Dorans Ring x2: As you will be farming mid solo, and assuming you play well, buying a second ring shouldn't hurt your pocketbook too much. Two rings gives a good amount of mana regen (although TF doesn't have huge mana issues due to Blue cards) as well as early AP and health, giving you an edge in early champion fights as well as early survivability.
Boots: Sorcerer's Treads are the no-brainer answer. Homeguard is just awesome because it severely reduced downtime and gets you back into lane very quickly. I am really torn between Homeguard and Alacrity (as the movement speed can really help TF), but I've recognized far more scenarios where Homeguard has made an active difference as compared to Alacrity.
Rylai's: Alright, this is where I start to get weird. My first major item is Rylai's. Why? Three reasons. One, the AP boost is significant. 80 AP is obviously quite good. Two, the health is very, very useful. 500 health is a large chunk, and, as TF is one of the squishiest and least mobile champions, this health makes a difference, especially early-mid game. Finally, and most importantly, the slow. By using this item, every time you hit with any of your abilities (including Blue cards and Stacked Deck), you slow your opponent (if it's a Blue card or Stacked Deck, just as much as a Red card does!). This is incredibly valuable when chasing or in team fights and adds quite a bit of utility to your arsenal. Furthermore, it lets you keep max damage output while chasing opponents; Instead of needing to stun with a Yellow card and not doing a ton of damage, you can do high damage with a Blue card and still slow them.
Nashor's Tooth: Nashor's Tooth is incredibly useful, giving mp/5 (although I don't worry about mana much on TF), CD reduction (amazing for letting you poke more as well as using your ultimate far more often), it gives you a respectable 60 AP, and it increases your attack speed quite a bit. This last part is, as I feel, the most important part, because it puts your Stacked Deck to true use. Yes, if you just go Deathcap -> Lichbane (like normal), your Stacked Deck still does a lot of damage, but you can't rely on it with TF's incredibly slow base attack speed. Increasing his attack speed lets you reliably damage your opponent with Stacked Deck, meaning you are fully utilizing all of your spells. The CDR is nothing to scoff at, either. This, along with the CDR passive from Stacked Deck, reduces the CD on Wild Cards and Pick a Card substantially, which is incredibly important to your poking potential.
Deathcap: Obvious choice for any AP carry. However, I wait for it until third. Why? Because, the Deathcap gives a lot of AP. A LOT. However, it doesn't give ANYTHING else. The utility (survivability, slow) of the Scepter and the damage you get from being able to reliably use Stacked Deck (Nashor's) are far more valuable early and early-mid game. Deathcap's passive really ups your AP once you get into the late-mid game time frame, where you actually have a lot more AP to get a bonus from.
Lichbane: Another staple choice for TF, but fourth. Again, I find that this item's use is limited by TF's attack speed. When TF's attack speed is slow, his wind-up time for his auto-attack is also slow, and ever split second matters in team fights, especially later game. Having the attack speed to back this bad-boy up makes it that much more potent. Also, I don't know if this procs before or after (or both?!) you Pick a Card, or if it procs both when you use Destiny and when you use Gate, but if it did, that would be absolutely sick.
Malady: I was having some trouble picking my last item. I knew I needed some more AP (of course), but I also knew that, more importantly, I needed some MR pen options. However, I've been slightly skeptical of the Void Staff, as I've been in several very late-game scenarios as Karthus (my #2) where he has had Sorcerer's Treads/Void Staff and it simply hasn't cut it. Ultimately, I settled on Malady. The reasoning; while Malady's AP bonus is very low, it gives your auto-attacks quite the punch by adding ~70-some-odd Magic Damage to them every hit. Furthermore, the increased attack speed will have you attacking just as fast as any ADC. Finally, because of the fast attack speed, the MR pen will stack very quickly, and, if I've done my math correctly, Sorcerer's Treads + Full Malady Stacks is more MR pen than Sorcerer's Treads + Void Staff in most situations (unless your target has an insane amount of MR, which is almost never). An argument could be made, saying that Malady only focuses your MR pen on one target. However, TF isn't made like Karthus, Veigar, or Syndra; his AP damage is very focused, with Pick a Card usually only hitting one target (Red card's radius is quite narrow, and the damage is limited anyway), and Wild Cards' hit box is very small with the two side cards flying out at a very wide angle, meaning you probably will only hit one target (unless they're in a line).
Concluding Thoughts
I find TF to be a very difficult champion to do very well as. Whenever I watch people play him, he's always pretty solid, but never really great, and I think it's because of two reasons. 1) His damage is rather mediocre (Karthus, Veigar, Syndra, etc. can severely out-damage him in a short time period) and 2) people really waste the potential of Stacked Deck by forgoing attack speed. I think more players need to look at TF as a utility AP carry (5500 radius teleport, single target stun, AoE slow, high sustain with Blue card mana regen, very long poke with Wild Cards) with a high overall damage potential instead of trying to just maximize the damage from Wild Cards and Pick a Card. Also, throughout my playing career with TF, it has occurred to me that TF is very much gear-dependent; while he can makes some ganks early game, they rely on prolonged pokes with Wild Cards/Pick a Card. His early-game damage potential and survivability is quite low for an AP carry, and he really only starts to outshine others once he can get his second full item past boots. Because of this, his viability in Dominion seems limited (you will rarely get more than two items in a Dominion game and will never complete your build) and he is also rather limited in Twisted Treeline (lack of ability to consistently farm CS at high numbers due to more frequent team fights and a higher risk of ganking). Also, as to TF"s playstyle, he is, of course, a low-survivability poke AP carry, and as such, you have to be really careful about when you engage, and you should never step up into the fight unless your team is at a very clear advantage; if you are focused at all, you are very likely to drop. Also, I find AD TF to be almost completely non-viable now (as opposed to my earlier thoughts), as he has very little survivability or escape capability (his stuns/slows rely on luck and time, as you must not only hit the button once, but must wait for it to flip to the Yellow card and then hit the button again) and, late game, Wild Cards' damage will be almost insignificant without any AP. His farming capability is also much weaker than an AP TF's.
I'd love to hear other's well-thought out critiques of my ideas, as I haven't really run this by anyone yet. Please for the love of god, no flat AP yellow/blues. Run scaling AP blues (or situationally, flat MR blues), and scaling HP or flat / scaling mana regen or flat armor yellows. TF also desperately need MS quints. I only browsed over the rest, but if you build Rylai's as your first item you are probably not going to do very well. You absolutely need to go NLR + Sheen + Sorc Boots as your core, then build to Lich Bane, dcap/zhonya, and go from there.
...Could you please read more into it and give me actual explanations? Because I pretty specifically explained why my build serves me so well, and my game history shows it. Also, why scaling runes? I find that runes make much more of a difference early game (where you get more AP with flat glyphs) as opposed to late game (where you'll end up with something like 19-20 more AP with scaling glyphs end-game as opposed to flat glyphs)
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Yeah, TF's strengths are his global presence, short cooldown stun, and long range poke/waveclear. His autoattack range is pretty short and he's super squishy with no escapes, so if you are going to make the most use of nashors tooth and malady you're going to die really fast. Get AP to clear waves and go gank.
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On January 25 2013 09:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 09:19 Sufficiency wrote:On January 25 2013 09:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Originally, I was sticking to AD TF pretty hard, not accepting that AP TF was any good. It seems like it largely wastes Stacked Deck and Pick a Card, but now that I've fiddled with it, I've found this build to work incredibly well. It's not a normal AP build, but I've gotten 11/0, 12/2, 12/1 on my last three victories, and 6/4, 6/4, 3/0 in my last three defeats (and the several games I've played before these that no longer show up in my match history are similar) and I top both teams in CS almost every game. I'm level 28 playing drafts.
Summoner Spells
Ghost
Flash
Runes
Marks of Greater Magic Pen
Seals, Glyphs, Quints of Greater AP
Masteries
22/0/9
Items, In This Order
Doran's Ring x2
Sorcerer's Treads (Homeguard)
Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Nashor's Tooth
Death Cap
Lichbane
Malady
Reasoning:
Summoner Spells
I know that everyone and their mother is incredibly stuck on Flash/Ignite, but I very, very rarely run into a situation where Ignite makes a difference, whereas the extra mobility given by Ghost is incredibly useful. TF is one of the least mobile champions in the game (very slow movement speed, teleport is on a very long cooldown), so mobility REALLY helps his survivability. It also helps significantly when trying to catch fleeing opponents. You may say that you should just get Ignite in that scenario, but a Ghost + Yellow Card + Wild Cards does far more damage than having an Ignite tick away as he runs off. Plus, it also lets you catch and stun half or full-health opponents for your entire team to gank.
Runes
TF is never going to be "tanky" in any sense, as he is one of the squishiest and least mobile characters in the game. Thus, I just go for straight magic pen/AP to maximize my damage output.
Masteries
Honestly, I'm only level 28, and haven't put much thought/study into masteries, so I picked the things that seemed most useful. I picked every mastery that could maximize my damage output as well as picking the two that improve Ghost/Flash, the one that gives increased movement speed out of combat, the one that reduces Summoner spell CD, and Improved Recall (this talent has saved me so many times; .5 seconds makes a big difference).
Items
Dorans Ring x2: As you will be farming mid solo, and assuming you play well, buying a second ring shouldn't hurt your pocketbook too much. Two rings gives a good amount of mana regen (although TF doesn't have huge mana issues due to Blue cards) as well as early AP and health, giving you an edge in early champion fights as well as early survivability.
Boots: Sorcerer's Treads are the no-brainer answer. Homeguard is just awesome because it severely reduced downtime and gets you back into lane very quickly. I am really torn between Homeguard and Alacrity (as the movement speed can really help TF), but I've recognized far more scenarios where Homeguard has made an active difference as compared to Alacrity.
Rylai's: Alright, this is where I start to get weird. My first major item is Rylai's. Why? Three reasons. One, the AP boost is significant. 80 AP is obviously quite good. Two, the health is very, very useful. 500 health is a large chunk, and, as TF is one of the squishiest and least mobile champions, this health makes a difference, especially early-mid game. Finally, and most importantly, the slow. By using this item, every time you hit with any of your abilities (including Blue cards and Stacked Deck), you slow your opponent (if it's a Blue card or Stacked Deck, just as much as a Red card does!). This is incredibly valuable when chasing or in team fights and adds quite a bit of utility to your arsenal. Furthermore, it lets you keep max damage output while chasing opponents; Instead of needing to stun with a Yellow card and not doing a ton of damage, you can do high damage with a Blue card and still slow them.
Nashor's Tooth: Nashor's Tooth is incredibly useful, giving mp/5 (although I don't worry about mana much on TF), CD reduction (amazing for letting you poke more as well as using your ultimate far more often), it gives you a respectable 60 AP, and it increases your attack speed quite a bit. This last part is, as I feel, the most important part, because it puts your Stacked Deck to true use. Yes, if you just go Deathcap -> Lichbane (like normal), your Stacked Deck still does a lot of damage, but you can't rely on it with TF's incredibly slow base attack speed. Increasing his attack speed lets you reliably damage your opponent with Stacked Deck, meaning you are fully utilizing all of your spells. The CDR is nothing to scoff at, either. This, along with the CDR passive from Stacked Deck, reduces the CD on Wild Cards and Pick a Card substantially, which is incredibly important to your poking potential.
Deathcap: Obvious choice for any AP carry. However, I wait for it until third. Why? Because, the Deathcap gives a lot of AP. A LOT. However, it doesn't give ANYTHING else. The utility (survivability, slow) of the Scepter and the damage you get from being able to reliably use Stacked Deck (Nashor's) are far more valuable early and early-mid game. Deathcap's passive really ups your AP once you get into the late-mid game time frame, where you actually have a lot more AP to get a bonus from.
Lichbane: Another staple choice for TF, but fourth. Again, I find that this item's use is limited by TF's attack speed. When TF's attack speed is slow, his wind-up time for his auto-attack is also slow, and ever split second matters in team fights, especially later game. Having the attack speed to back this bad-boy up makes it that much more potent. Also, I don't know if this procs before or after (or both?!) you Pick a Card, or if it procs both when you use Destiny and when you use Gate, but if it did, that would be absolutely sick.
Malady: I was having some trouble picking my last item. I knew I needed some more AP (of course), but I also knew that, more importantly, I needed some MR pen options. However, I've been slightly skeptical of the Void Staff, as I've been in several very late-game scenarios as Karthus (my #2) where he has had Sorcerer's Treads/Void Staff and it simply hasn't cut it. Ultimately, I settled on Malady. The reasoning; while Malady's AP bonus is very low, it gives your auto-attacks quite the punch by adding ~70-some-odd Magic Damage to them every hit. Furthermore, the increased attack speed will have you attacking just as fast as any ADC. Finally, because of the fast attack speed, the MR pen will stack very quickly, and, if I've done my math correctly, Sorcerer's Treads + Full Malady Stacks is more MR pen than Sorcerer's Treads + Void Staff in most situations (unless your target has an insane amount of MR, which is almost never). An argument could be made, saying that Malady only focuses your MR pen on one target. However, TF isn't made like Karthus, Veigar, or Syndra; his AP damage is very focused, with Pick a Card usually only hitting one target (Red card's radius is quite narrow, and the damage is limited anyway), and Wild Cards' hit box is very small with the two side cards flying out at a very wide angle, meaning you probably will only hit one target (unless they're in a line).
Concluding Thoughts
I find TF to be a very difficult champion to do very well as. Whenever I watch people play him, he's always pretty solid, but never really great, and I think it's because of two reasons. 1) His damage is rather mediocre (Karthus, Veigar, Syndra, etc. can severely out-damage him in a short time period) and 2) people really waste the potential of Stacked Deck by forgoing attack speed. I think more players need to look at TF as a utility AP carry (5500 radius teleport, single target stun, AoE slow, high sustain with Blue card mana regen, very long poke with Wild Cards) with a high overall damage potential instead of trying to just maximize the damage from Wild Cards and Pick a Card. Also, throughout my playing career with TF, it has occurred to me that TF is very much gear-dependent; while he can makes some ganks early game, they rely on prolonged pokes with Wild Cards/Pick a Card. His early-game damage potential and survivability is quite low for an AP carry, and he really only starts to outshine others once he can get his second full item past boots. Because of this, his viability in Dominion seems limited (you will rarely get more than two items in a Dominion game and will never complete your build) and he is also rather limited in Twisted Treeline (lack of ability to consistently farm CS at high numbers due to more frequent team fights and a higher risk of ganking). Also, as to TF"s playstyle, he is, of course, a low-survivability poke AP carry, and as such, you have to be really careful about when you engage, and you should never step up into the fight unless your team is at a very clear advantage; if you are focused at all, you are very likely to drop. Also, I find AD TF to be almost completely non-viable now (as opposed to my earlier thoughts), as he has very little survivability or escape capability (his stuns/slows rely on luck and time, as you must not only hit the button once, but must wait for it to flip to the Yellow card and then hit the button again) and, late game, Wild Cards' damage will be almost insignificant without any AP. His farming capability is also much weaker than an AP TF's.
I'd love to hear other's well-thought out critiques of my ideas, as I haven't really run this by anyone yet. Please for the love of god, no flat AP yellow/blues. Run scaling AP blues (or situationally, flat MR blues), and scaling HP or flat / scaling mana regen or flat armor yellows. TF also desperately need MS quints. I only browsed over the rest, but if you build Rylai's as your first item you are probably not going to do very well. You absolutely need to go NLR + Sheen + Sorc Boots as your core, then build to Lich Bane, dcap/zhonya, and go from there. ...Could you please read more into it and give me actual explanations? Because I pretty specifically explained why my build serves me so well, and my game history shows it.
Because the slow is not worth it. Your Q only procs 15% slow, your red card already has a slow, and if for some reason you drew a blue card instead of red/yellow, you simply misplayed.
TF needs to itemize as much AP as possible so he can stay ahead the damage curve and be able to oneshot the backline. He also needs at least a little bit more damage (Sheen/Lich Bane) so he can pull off ganks more easily.
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On January 25 2013 09:30 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 09:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:On January 25 2013 09:19 Sufficiency wrote:On January 25 2013 09:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Originally, I was sticking to AD TF pretty hard, not accepting that AP TF was any good. It seems like it largely wastes Stacked Deck and Pick a Card, but now that I've fiddled with it, I've found this build to work incredibly well. It's not a normal AP build, but I've gotten 11/0, 12/2, 12/1 on my last three victories, and 6/4, 6/4, 3/0 in my last three defeats (and the several games I've played before these that no longer show up in my match history are similar) and I top both teams in CS almost every game. I'm level 28 playing drafts.
Summoner Spells
Ghost
Flash
Runes
Marks of Greater Magic Pen
Seals, Glyphs, Quints of Greater AP
Masteries
22/0/9
Items, In This Order
Doran's Ring x2
Sorcerer's Treads (Homeguard)
Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Nashor's Tooth
Death Cap
Lichbane
Malady
Reasoning:
Summoner Spells
I know that everyone and their mother is incredibly stuck on Flash/Ignite, but I very, very rarely run into a situation where Ignite makes a difference, whereas the extra mobility given by Ghost is incredibly useful. TF is one of the least mobile champions in the game (very slow movement speed, teleport is on a very long cooldown), so mobility REALLY helps his survivability. It also helps significantly when trying to catch fleeing opponents. You may say that you should just get Ignite in that scenario, but a Ghost + Yellow Card + Wild Cards does far more damage than having an Ignite tick away as he runs off. Plus, it also lets you catch and stun half or full-health opponents for your entire team to gank.
Runes
TF is never going to be "tanky" in any sense, as he is one of the squishiest and least mobile characters in the game. Thus, I just go for straight magic pen/AP to maximize my damage output.
Masteries
Honestly, I'm only level 28, and haven't put much thought/study into masteries, so I picked the things that seemed most useful. I picked every mastery that could maximize my damage output as well as picking the two that improve Ghost/Flash, the one that gives increased movement speed out of combat, the one that reduces Summoner spell CD, and Improved Recall (this talent has saved me so many times; .5 seconds makes a big difference).
Items
Dorans Ring x2: As you will be farming mid solo, and assuming you play well, buying a second ring shouldn't hurt your pocketbook too much. Two rings gives a good amount of mana regen (although TF doesn't have huge mana issues due to Blue cards) as well as early AP and health, giving you an edge in early champion fights as well as early survivability.
Boots: Sorcerer's Treads are the no-brainer answer. Homeguard is just awesome because it severely reduced downtime and gets you back into lane very quickly. I am really torn between Homeguard and Alacrity (as the movement speed can really help TF), but I've recognized far more scenarios where Homeguard has made an active difference as compared to Alacrity.
Rylai's: Alright, this is where I start to get weird. My first major item is Rylai's. Why? Three reasons. One, the AP boost is significant. 80 AP is obviously quite good. Two, the health is very, very useful. 500 health is a large chunk, and, as TF is one of the squishiest and least mobile champions, this health makes a difference, especially early-mid game. Finally, and most importantly, the slow. By using this item, every time you hit with any of your abilities (including Blue cards and Stacked Deck), you slow your opponent (if it's a Blue card or Stacked Deck, just as much as a Red card does!). This is incredibly valuable when chasing or in team fights and adds quite a bit of utility to your arsenal. Furthermore, it lets you keep max damage output while chasing opponents; Instead of needing to stun with a Yellow card and not doing a ton of damage, you can do high damage with a Blue card and still slow them.
Nashor's Tooth: Nashor's Tooth is incredibly useful, giving mp/5 (although I don't worry about mana much on TF), CD reduction (amazing for letting you poke more as well as using your ultimate far more often), it gives you a respectable 60 AP, and it increases your attack speed quite a bit. This last part is, as I feel, the most important part, because it puts your Stacked Deck to true use. Yes, if you just go Deathcap -> Lichbane (like normal), your Stacked Deck still does a lot of damage, but you can't rely on it with TF's incredibly slow base attack speed. Increasing his attack speed lets you reliably damage your opponent with Stacked Deck, meaning you are fully utilizing all of your spells. The CDR is nothing to scoff at, either. This, along with the CDR passive from Stacked Deck, reduces the CD on Wild Cards and Pick a Card substantially, which is incredibly important to your poking potential.
Deathcap: Obvious choice for any AP carry. However, I wait for it until third. Why? Because, the Deathcap gives a lot of AP. A LOT. However, it doesn't give ANYTHING else. The utility (survivability, slow) of the Scepter and the damage you get from being able to reliably use Stacked Deck (Nashor's) are far more valuable early and early-mid game. Deathcap's passive really ups your AP once you get into the late-mid game time frame, where you actually have a lot more AP to get a bonus from.
Lichbane: Another staple choice for TF, but fourth. Again, I find that this item's use is limited by TF's attack speed. When TF's attack speed is slow, his wind-up time for his auto-attack is also slow, and ever split second matters in team fights, especially later game. Having the attack speed to back this bad-boy up makes it that much more potent. Also, I don't know if this procs before or after (or both?!) you Pick a Card, or if it procs both when you use Destiny and when you use Gate, but if it did, that would be absolutely sick.
Malady: I was having some trouble picking my last item. I knew I needed some more AP (of course), but I also knew that, more importantly, I needed some MR pen options. However, I've been slightly skeptical of the Void Staff, as I've been in several very late-game scenarios as Karthus (my #2) where he has had Sorcerer's Treads/Void Staff and it simply hasn't cut it. Ultimately, I settled on Malady. The reasoning; while Malady's AP bonus is very low, it gives your auto-attacks quite the punch by adding ~70-some-odd Magic Damage to them every hit. Furthermore, the increased attack speed will have you attacking just as fast as any ADC. Finally, because of the fast attack speed, the MR pen will stack very quickly, and, if I've done my math correctly, Sorcerer's Treads + Full Malady Stacks is more MR pen than Sorcerer's Treads + Void Staff in most situations (unless your target has an insane amount of MR, which is almost never). An argument could be made, saying that Malady only focuses your MR pen on one target. However, TF isn't made like Karthus, Veigar, or Syndra; his AP damage is very focused, with Pick a Card usually only hitting one target (Red card's radius is quite narrow, and the damage is limited anyway), and Wild Cards' hit box is very small with the two side cards flying out at a very wide angle, meaning you probably will only hit one target (unless they're in a line).
Concluding Thoughts
I find TF to be a very difficult champion to do very well as. Whenever I watch people play him, he's always pretty solid, but never really great, and I think it's because of two reasons. 1) His damage is rather mediocre (Karthus, Veigar, Syndra, etc. can severely out-damage him in a short time period) and 2) people really waste the potential of Stacked Deck by forgoing attack speed. I think more players need to look at TF as a utility AP carry (5500 radius teleport, single target stun, AoE slow, high sustain with Blue card mana regen, very long poke with Wild Cards) with a high overall damage potential instead of trying to just maximize the damage from Wild Cards and Pick a Card. Also, throughout my playing career with TF, it has occurred to me that TF is very much gear-dependent; while he can makes some ganks early game, they rely on prolonged pokes with Wild Cards/Pick a Card. His early-game damage potential and survivability is quite low for an AP carry, and he really only starts to outshine others once he can get his second full item past boots. Because of this, his viability in Dominion seems limited (you will rarely get more than two items in a Dominion game and will never complete your build) and he is also rather limited in Twisted Treeline (lack of ability to consistently farm CS at high numbers due to more frequent team fights and a higher risk of ganking). Also, as to TF"s playstyle, he is, of course, a low-survivability poke AP carry, and as such, you have to be really careful about when you engage, and you should never step up into the fight unless your team is at a very clear advantage; if you are focused at all, you are very likely to drop. Also, I find AD TF to be almost completely non-viable now (as opposed to my earlier thoughts), as he has very little survivability or escape capability (his stuns/slows rely on luck and time, as you must not only hit the button once, but must wait for it to flip to the Yellow card and then hit the button again) and, late game, Wild Cards' damage will be almost insignificant without any AP. His farming capability is also much weaker than an AP TF's.
I'd love to hear other's well-thought out critiques of my ideas, as I haven't really run this by anyone yet. Please for the love of god, no flat AP yellow/blues. Run scaling AP blues (or situationally, flat MR blues), and scaling HP or flat / scaling mana regen or flat armor yellows. TF also desperately need MS quints. I only browsed over the rest, but if you build Rylai's as your first item you are probably not going to do very well. You absolutely need to go NLR + Sheen + Sorc Boots as your core, then build to Lich Bane, dcap/zhonya, and go from there. ...Could you please read more into it and give me actual explanations? Because I pretty specifically explained why my build serves me so well, and my game history shows it. Because the slow is not worth it. Your Q only procs 15% slow, your red card already has a slow, and if for some reason you drew a blue card instead of red/yellow, you simply misplayed. TF needs to itemize as much AP as possible so he can stay ahead the damage curve and be able to oneshot the backline. He also needs at least a little bit more damage (Sheen/Lich Bane) so he can pull off ganks more easily.
But TF shouldn't be ahead of the damage curve of other high-damage AP carry's in the first place, so why try to do it? Someone like Karthus, Veigar, Syndra, or probably even Orianna can out-damage him if you want to go for all-out damage, whereas TF's long poke, low CD stun, and long-range teleport gives him a lot more utility and flexibility than these heavy hitters. Why not take advantage of his utility as opposed to pure damage?
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What he means in that during the laning-phase, you need at least enough AP to one-shot the caster minions. That way, you can red card the second melee minion (the AoE will damage the other 2) and then Q the whole wave while it's still aligned. This allows TF to insta-clear at an extremely safe range, way earlier than most other mids (Gragas needs the creeps to get into their "2 line" formation if he wants to hit all 6 with his barrel for example, same with Morgana) and then run away to gank. If his opponent wants to follow him he'll likely lose a lot of farm to the tower (possibly the whole wave), this allows TF to be very mobile and pressure the farming ability of his opponent, even without using his ult (if they don't have enough wards or you know where they are).
It also allows TF to farm unopposed even when he's heavily losing his lane because he never needs to be in range of his opponent to farm (and if you have to Q twice to kill the wave, whatever, just wait for it to approach the tower, blue card a creep for mana, kill the others with the 2nd Q).
I hate that part of the champ. :[
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On January 25 2013 09:43 Alaric wrote:
What he means in that during the laning-phase, you need at least enough AP to one-shot the caster minions. That way, you can red card the second melee minion (the AoE will damage the other 2) and then Q the whole wave while it's still aligned. This allows TF to insta-clear at an extremely safe range, way earlier than most other mids (Gragas needs the creeps to get into their "2 line" formation if he wants to hit all 6 with his barrel for example, same with Morgana) and then run away to gank. If his opponent wants to follow him he'll likely lose a lot of farm to the tower (possibly the whole wave), this allows TF to be very mobile and pressure the farming ability of his opponent, even without using his ult (if they don't have enough wards or you know where they are).
It also allows TF to farm unopposed even when he's heavily losing his lane because he never needs to be in range of his opponent to farm (and if you have to Q twice to kill the wave, whatever, just wait for it to approach the tower, blue card a creep for mana, kill the others with the 2nd Q).
I hate that part of the champ. :[
Hmm, I never thought about this (and I don't recall ever taking note of this early game clearing ability in games I spectate). While this sounds like it would be quite nifty to be able to insta-clear a creep wave that much earlier, I've found that I can still farm a good 80/10 min while harassing my laning opponent, especially if I hit the back wave with Red cards that do splash damage. I'll have to try that build and see how much better this insta-clearing is.
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Playing TF is literally shoving your lane with your QW and then go gank. The better you can shove (i.e. more AP) and the more effective you can gank (usually from faster movement speed, such as boots, MS quints, Lich Bane, etc) the more effective you are.
Rylai requires a Giant's Belt. That's at least 1k gold not invested in shoving or ganking. Therefore it's not a good first item.
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Helps with ganks too, after it passes that point. Since realistically without the jungle you should never get a kill in lane as TF
ever
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TF with blue buff is godly in mid. Such a fun champ to play. In lane try to keep your opponent on his toes by leaving pick a card running for a while, don't always just immediately select gold (or whatever). Obviously when you hit 6 and you go to gank select gold card first so you can appear and stun + Q instantly. Also try to use your Q on creep waves that are still lined up so you hit every single one.
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Is it better to go Lich Bane or Rabadons first as TF?
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boots>rings>sheen>dcap>lichbane usually works best from my experience.
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On January 25 2013 14:36 LeapofFaith wrote:
Is it better to go Lich Bane or Rabadons first as TF?
I've seen a lot of people playing TF and it really varies. It will most likely depend on the situation as well.
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On January 25 2013 17:30 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 14:36 LeapofFaith wrote:
Is it better to go Lich Bane or Rabadons first as TF? I've seen a lot of people playing TF and it really varies. It will most likely depend on the situation as well.
Personally Sheen first has really worked out for me as TF. But I love Sheen first on everybody xD
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