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United States37500 Posts
Twisted Fate, the Card Master
Twisted Fate is a jack of all trades. Viable in both the AP and DPS spectrum, he possesses a stun, a poke, and the infamous global ulti. He has the potential to turn any team fight into a successful gank.
AP TF
Summoner Skills: Teleport/Flash (preferred), Flash/Ghost, Cleanse/Flash
Teleport may seem a little redundant if you consider TF’s ultimate. However, backdooring is a very strong strategy mid and late game. Having Teleport allows TF to bounce between top and bottom lanes very easily.
Despite having one of the slowest move speeds in the game, Flash is taken over Ghost since Flash + Gold Card has so many advantages on the offensive front.
Masteries: Standard 9 0 21 for Casters. Teleport and Flash Masteries selected.
Runes:
Quints: Magic Pen
Red: Magic Pen
Yellow: Mana per 5 per Level
Blue: Ability Power per Level
Skill Order: WQQEQR, R > Q > E > W
Item Build: Doran’s Ring => Sheen + Boots => Lich Bane => Sorc Boots => Zhonya’s => Void Staff => Banshee’s Veil => Deathfire Grasp
A very glass cannon build early on. Veil over GA for spell block. DFG to help bring down tanks during late game.
Playstyle
Playing TF, first thing you need to be able to do is to lock cards with W. Be aware that when you activate W, the 3 cards show up both above TF’s head, as well as the skill icon in the user interface. I tend to watch the icon at the bottom, especially during team fights when a lot of spells and projectiles are flying, not to mention all the champion life bars.
You start out with W for both possible level 1 team fights as well as lane control. You can zone enemy players simply by activating W, not even having to lock on gold. (If they run away, lock a Blue Card instead and get that mana back)
AP TF starts becoming effective early game after he has Sheen. Sheen proc allows TF to mow down unguarded towers with ease.
At level 6, start using your ultimate wisely. Most obvious is to gank side lanes with odds in your favor. Lock a Gold Card, Ulti, then port ahead of your target. It is vital to communicate well (even with just ping spam) to indicate to your team who you are planning to gank. 1v1 solo top can become a 3v1 first blood with your top laner, your team’s jungle and TF porting in.
If your lanes are pushed and there are no gank opportunities, start looking for towers to damage instead. If bottom lane is pushed in your favor and one of the enemies at bot is returning home to heal. Port bottom and force a 3v1 situation again and push that bottom tower down asap before the enemy at fountain can return.
Use Q to rapidly farm creep waves (get up close to them to ensure maximum card spread damage). Q is also a handy poke spell when you are sieging an enemy tower.
Level E over W simply because of the CD and magic damage procs. W is primarily used for the on-hit effects, not the actual damage.
Late game, force 4 + 1 pushes as often as possible. With a global Ulti, TF can jump into a team fight at well, push alternate lanes, or simply use it to escape. When solo pushing lanes, be sure to ward paths where you can see enemies incoming. It is most effective to use Ulti and Teleport offensively and blue pill to retreat. However, you need an early warning to pill safely in those 8 seconds.
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United States37500 Posts
DPS TF
Summoner Skills: Teleport/Flash (preferred), Flash/Ghost, Cleanse/Flash
Slightly different playstyle with DPS TF but masteries remain the same.
Masteries: 9 0 21 still to capitalize on Presence of the Master. Invest in Alaracity instead of Sorcery as you’re playing DPS
Runes:
Quints: Armor Pen
Red: Armor Pen
Yellow: Mana per 5 per Level
Blue: Mana per 5 per Level
Skill Order: WEEQER, R > E > Q > W
Item Build: Doran’s Blade => Doran’s Blade + Boots => Zerker’s Greaves => Sword of the Divine / Youmuu’s Ghostblade / Last Whisper (Choose two, I tend to lean SotD and Ghostblade)
Mallet for Slow and HP, IEdge / Bloodthrister for damage, Bloodrazor against tanky team
DPS TF has a larger variety of item choices than AP TF. Damage-wise, TF is one of the few champions where stacking Attack Speed first is very profitable, thanks to his E passive. You want at least one purely damage item, preferably IEdge for crit purposes. Glass cannon builds are usually the best but in case the enemy has a lot of CC, Mallet and Banshee are there for surviviability.
Playstyle
You play DPS TF much like AP TF, except you are far less pokey. DPS TF has a strong sustainable damage output, as opposed to AP TF, which comes in bursts (W Gold Card followed up by a Q). If an enemy is stunned, TF can barrage the enemy down in a matter or seconds. TF benefits greatly from any item’s on-hit effect, like SotD and GB.
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United States37500 Posts
AP vs DPS
When should you play AP TF vs DPS TF? For the most part, AP TF functions very well when your team is unorganized (non 5 man premade). His Q allows him to harass with little worry for retaliation. Building into a Zhonya’s provides additional survivability if he’s caught in the middle of a fight. DPS TF does more damage over all but DPS TF has to get into much closer proximity with the enemy than AP TF does. Having one of the worst base move speeds in the game, a TF getting caught by CC typically means death, which is why Flash is recommended.
Tips
- Some overall uses for Pick a Card (W)
Gold Card: provides TF with one of the longest range non-ulti stuns in the game. When laning bottom, practice locking a Gold in the brush and flash out for the stun, followed by Q. If your lane partner also has a stun, it makes for a great first blood combo
Blue Card: replenishes an amount of mana after the card hits. Ideal to use when zoning enemies back to their tower (out of fear for a Gold Card) then locking Blue to conserve mana. Also use Blue for activating Sheen proc against Towers
Red Card: best used for farming purposes. If there a 1.5 or more waves of creep at your tower, AP TF can use a Red followed by a Q to mow all the minions down. Red + Q is also very efficient at farming Wraiths and Wolves in the jungle. Takes 2-3 seconds to complete the camp and move on
- Not as difficult as Pantheon’s Ulti but not as simple as Shen’s, TF ulti still requires a certain amount of precision. Always check the summoner spells of the champion you are planning to gank. Having the enemy Flash away in response to your port can end up as a waste (even though the enemy’s Flash CD is much longer than Destiny, you still want to try to net at least 1 kill or assist for every Destiny used)
Also be wary of the attack potential of who you’re trying to gank. Setting up a 3v1 situation vs an Olaf can be dangerous for example. Being squishy, an Olaf can Ragnarok and ignore your Gold Card and proceed to tear you down before your two allies can take him out.
- Late game, if your team has done a poor job warding, sometimes it is worth using Destiny simply to see where the enemies are and prevent a poor team fight. However, if you do use Destiny for purely scouting purposes, be sure to set wards down immediately afterwards. You don’t want to waste any future ulti’s to scout again.
- In tandem with the previous point, be watchful of Baron immediately after you Destiny. I’ve stolen plenty of Barons because an enemy TF uses his ulti to scout where we are and they proceed to turtle right after.
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Question about dps in general, but if you have some as, would Cleaver be a good choice instead of IE, etc.
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United States37500 Posts
On November 08 2010 09:56 Wala.Revolution wrote:
Question about dps in general, but if you have some as, would Cleaver be a good choice instead of IE, etc.
I've rarely found any situations where Cleaver would be better than IEdge. LW is more efficient imo.
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Backdoor TF
Goal is to build TF for optimal backdooring. So you want to avoid crit/lifesteal/armour penetration since those don't work on turrets.
Red: Attack Speed / AD
Yellow: Mp5/lvl
Blue: Mp5/lvl OR MR
Quints: Attack Speed / AD
(In theory flat mana / manaperlvl in the blue slot should work too if you're running Manamune)
Items:
Zerker Greaves
Manamune
Guinsoo's Rageblade
(the above still a WIP, need more testing)
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YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love DPS characters because of how funny they can be
and Twisted Fate is awesome :D
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i practiced tf as my sole revive dps champ ( dunno panth or shen)
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AP Fate works extremely well with organized teams, the long range of wild cards can snipe those who run to their towers and turn an unsuccessful gank into a successful one. You should only play DPS Fate when your team lacks an auto attacker / physical carry or the rest of your team is primarily magical.
Also, I'm surprised you didn't put revive as a viable option in your guide. Revive allows TF to remain with his team, "tank" a bunch of damage then get back into the fight (or resume back dooring) with his ult and almost 0 downtime.
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United States37500 Posts
I'm ironically opposite of EzPz, I've only run Revive Panth before, never on TF or Shen. I rather not wing a section about a playstyle that I simply haven't tried before.
AP TF with pugs and DPS TF with premade is simply a mentality I have and I justified it with personal reasoning. But by all means, play AP TF with your premade and try out DPS TF in pugs. I never said my opinions were meant as dogma.
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United States4126 Posts
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I hate playing tf. I hate using pick a card and if you aren't good with it he's straight up the squishiest character in the game.
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Pretty sure this was pre-armour pen change.
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On November 09 2010 16:27 nyxnyxnyx wrote:Pretty sure this was pre-armour pen change.
All calculations are done assuming no armor so it doesn't matter anyways
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Time to troll:
Build:
Sword of the Divine
Malady
Wit's End
Sorc Shoes
Blood Razors
Kill people with magic damage, deal nothing to towers.
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I've been building Guinsoos -> Malady -> banshees/bloodrazor (order dependent on situation) to try to squeeze as much as possible out of both TF's E and to maximize Q damage for pokes. Is this terribad?
If yes: please explain why. The aforementioned guide does not mention Guinsoo's - which intuitively to me seems like a core item for TF.
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I give you the BEST TF troll build: Tank Fate
Priorities, in order: Get Warmogs for health, max CDR for more stuns (Frozen Heart!), get Banshee's Veil or Quicksilver Sash as appropriate to the enemy team comp, get some combination of Madred's Bloodrazor, Atmas Impaler and Guinsoo's Rageblade.
TF farms so well that Warmogs will be full in no time at all, and Frozen Heart plus Stacked Deck gives you a 2 second stun on a 4? second cooldown. Quicksilver Sash makes you inefficient to focus first, while Madred's, Atma's, and Guinsoo's all give you impressive damage, and the last two are very cheap.
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On November 08 2010 14:24 HeavOnEarth wrote:
i practiced tf as my sole revive dps champ ( dunno panth or shen)
i dont use revive on tf because pushing a solo lane and ultying in is what i usually do.
Unless you run tele, too, but then you wouldnt have room for flash or ghost.
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most OP thing to do is push with TF bot while ur team does baron
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On November 14 2010 23:30 Tooplark wrote:
I give you the BEST TF troll build: Tank Fate
Priorities, in order: Get Warmogs for health, max CDR for more stuns (Frozen Heart!), get Banshee's Veil or Quicksilver Sash as appropriate to the enemy team comp, get some combination of Madred's Bloodrazor, Atmas Impaler and Guinsoo's Rageblade.
TF farms so well that Warmogs will be full in no time at all, and Frozen Heart plus Stacked Deck gives you a 2 second stun on a 4? second cooldown. Quicksilver Sash makes you inefficient to focus first, while Madred's, Atma's, and Guinsoo's all give you impressive damage, and the last two are very cheap.
port right in the middle of a fight-> radiuns
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I guess Randuins + Bluepot can be substituted for Frozen Brain.
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On November 14 2010 19:16 Odds wrote:
I've been building Guinsoos -> Malady -> banshees/bloodrazor (order dependent on situation) to try to squeeze as much as possible out of both TF's E and to maximize Q damage for pokes. Is this terribad?
If yes: please explain why. The aforementioned guide does not mention Guinsoo's - which intuitively to me seems like a core item for TF.
Hybrid twisted Fate is not bad at all, you do decent sustained damage and have a spammable poke spell which is also fairly potent. However, as you don't gain additional benefits for hybridization (like akali or kayle for example) it is generally better to focus on one over the other.
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On November 15 2010 01:06 Tooplark wrote:
I guess Randuins + Bluepot can be substituted for Frozen Brain.
oh i know nothing about tank tf. :O
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On November 15 2010 01:20 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 19:16 Odds wrote:
I've been building Guinsoos -> Malady -> banshees/bloodrazor (order dependent on situation) to try to squeeze as much as possible out of both TF's E and to maximize Q damage for pokes. Is this terribad?
If yes: please explain why. The aforementioned guide does not mention Guinsoo's - which intuitively to me seems like a core item for TF. Hybrid twisted Fate is not bad at all, you do decent sustained damage and have a spammable poke spell which is also fairly potent. However, as you don't gain additional benefits for hybridization (like akali or kayle for example) it is generally better to focus on one over the other.
You mean additional benefits like Guinsoos which increases damage, attack speed, poke power, and passive damage for Stack Deck? =P
But yeah, I see what you are saying.
If I continue using this build, though, is Nashor's Tooth a logical continuation out of Malady, being cheaper than bloodrazor? Or should I just go straight for the DPS MOFUCKIN' DAMAGE?
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On November 15 2010 04:53 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 01:20 STS17 wrote:On November 14 2010 19:16 Odds wrote:
I've been building Guinsoos -> Malady -> banshees/bloodrazor (order dependent on situation) to try to squeeze as much as possible out of both TF's E and to maximize Q damage for pokes. Is this terribad?
If yes: please explain why. The aforementioned guide does not mention Guinsoo's - which intuitively to me seems like a core item for TF. Hybrid twisted Fate is not bad at all, you do decent sustained damage and have a spammable poke spell which is also fairly potent. However, as you don't gain additional benefits for hybridization (like akali or kayle for example) it is generally better to focus on one over the other. You mean additional benefits like Guinsoos which increases damage, attack speed, poke power, and passive damage for Stack Deck? =P But yeah, I see what you are saying. If I continue using this build, though, is Nashor's Tooth a logical continuation out of Malady, being cheaper than bloodrazor? Or should I just go straight for the DPS MOFUCKIN' DAMAGE?
Not really a definitive answer to that, if you are raping face then get the BR to extend your advantage (should be able to afford it) but keep in mind your pushing abilities will suffer since only the ASPD really helps downing towers.
HGB is also decent because it gives you more of what you want while giving you survivability in the form of lifesteal and spell vamp (spell vamp works on magic damage from Malady SotD Wit's End and BR) whereas if you are short on funds SotD and Wit's End are both situationally useful and cheap.
Nashor's Tooth is a good item to get if you don't think you will be able to afford BR in a timely fashion as well because you can benefit from all the stats on it.
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W's on-hit effects get better as you level up W. DPS TF 100% wants R > E > W > Q (with W at level 1), don't even take Q until you have no choice. 2 second stun is a huge difference from 1 second stun.
I feel like AP TF might want R > Q > W > E, but I'm not sure ... all four skills are good for AP TF.
I just won a 4v5 because TF solo pushing is OP. Zerker greaves + Bloodthirster (I got IE but I wasn't really thinking that it'd come down to split pushing like this at the time) + sword of the divine and people at my level aren't good enough to deal with a solopush. Got an inhib turret down pretty early and we were in control the rest of the game ... I don't think they even crossed the river after I returned with my ult and got the inhib (they got one of our inhibs just before, but stayed too long and we aced them after I bluepilled back).
Also, I managed to ult out of their base after killing an inhib, and I think I must've died as I was teleporting, because when I re-center my screen I see my guardian angel activating in my base lol. Didn't know that was possible.
Also I think if you're going to troll with tank TF you need locket because locket is imba.
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On December 13 2010 02:52 crate wrote:
W's on-hit effects get better as you level up W. DPS TF 100% wants R > E > W > Q (with W at level 1), don't even take Q until you have no choice. 2 second stun is a huge difference from 1 second stun.
I feel like AP TF might want R > Q > W > E, but I'm not sure ... all four skills are good for AP TF.
I just won a 4v5 because TF solo pushing is OP. Zerker greaves + Bloodthirster (I got IE but I wasn't really thinking that it'd come down to split pushing like this at the time) + sword of the divine and people at my level aren't good enough to deal with a solopush. Got an inhib turret down pretty early and we were in control the rest of the game ... I don't think they even crossed the river after I returned with my ult and got the inhib (they got one of our inhibs just before, but stayed too long and we aced them after I bluepilled back).
Also, I managed to ult out of their base after killing an inhib, and I think I must've died as I was teleporting, because when I re-center my screen I see my guardian angel activating in my base lol. Didn't know that was possible.
Also I think if you're going to troll with tank TF you need locket because locket is imba.
on ap tf i do a wonky little thing that i also do with panth in that i go q,w,e (or w at lvl 1 if we teamfight), then max q, get a 2nd or 3rd lvl of w (depending on how many merc treads are out on the ppl ur aiming to kill) then max e then max w, ofc getting r whenever possible.
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AP TF maxes Q first almost 100% of the time. Simply put, the largest advantage AP Fate has over DPS Fate is range, so it only makes sense to capitalize on that. R>Q>W>E (W at level 1, first rank of E at 3 or 4, really comes down to preference)
You don't want to harass with Q until level 4 or 5 because until then its damage:mana ratio isn't too great especially considering your mana pool.
In Lane:
Laning AP Fate and DPS Fate are basically identical until you begin getting AP, last hit with blue card and/or E proc - using both to harass and zone your opponent when he tries to farm. Once you hit level 4-5 (and again when you begin accruing AP) you can harass with Q as well, abusing its range to make your opponent last hitting under his tower as difficult as possible.
At 6 you should b to buy and look for a gank opportunity, if none presents itself then just return to lane, if you doubt there will be a need to use it in the near future, ult back to lane to minimize downtime and resume pressuring your opponent (possibly now with an item advantage) you should be 1-2 levels ahead of your opponent at this point against quite a few lanes.
In Teamfights:
Poke with Q all day every day (presuming you have the mana supply - you want to save some for the fight). If your opponents are getting BVs, I believe it is still possible to pop it with your ult so it's a good idea to do this before your team initiates to prevent them from absorbing a rocket grab or mummy ult or what-have-you.
Once the fight actually begins, you want to spam red card over gold, barring facing champs with channel ults (kat / galio etc) or someone who "needs" to be stunlocked (fed carry). Reason being Red simply does more damage (and it's AoE) then gold and the slow prevents their team from repositioning properly. Keep spamming those Qs trying to hit as many as possible.
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As in the AP vs AD, AP is way safer in teamfights, and fits in poke setups as well AP setup also bring towers down fast without being really fucking fed (all he needs is lichbane + bluepot for wrecking towers)
Lategame AP tf is also VERY underrated since he can basically chop you up for 1k damage and run away to do the same 3 seconds later (if your E is up in time that is).
AD just has a stupid amount of damage (especially lategame where it becomes completely riddicolous) and will almost allways be in range to blow someone up with goldcard.
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On December 13 2010 06:17 Iplaythings wrote:
As in the AP vs AD, AP is way safer in teamfights, and fits in poke setups as well AP setup also bring towers down fast without being really fucking fed (all he needs is lichbane + bluepot for wrecking towers)
Lategame AP tf is also VERY underrated since he can basically chop you up for 1k damage and run away to do the same 3 seconds later (if your E is up in time that is).
AD just has a stupid amount of damage (especially lategame where it becomes completely riddicolous) and will almost allways be in range to blow someone up with goldcard.
.4 AP added to damage against towers FTW!
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On November 15 2010 05:39 STS17 wrote:
HGB is also decent because it gives you more of what you want while giving you survivability in the form of lifesteal and spell vamp (spell vamp works on magic damage from Malady SotD Wit's End and BR) whereas if you are short on funds SotD and Wit's End are both situationally useful and cheap.
I realize it's been a month, but I just tested this and Spell Vamp does not work on any of these effects, nor the active from HGB or DFG. It also doesn't work on Akali's Discipline of Force.
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Is bloodthirster a good damage item? Fairly cheap and builds smoother than IE.
EDIT: Plus lifesteal seems necessary on anybody who is going to be inside autoattack range of anything. If not BT, then what lifesteal item?
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it's basically a better sword of the occult imo. If you stay alive, it gets stronger, if you die your dps goes pbtttttttttth.
On a hero where it makes sense to just stack bf swords at a certain point, it's what you should be upgrading into
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Bloodthirster is pretty good on TF imo because you can solopush to fill it up then ult in to teamfights if you have to. #1 backdoor damage item too. IE tends to work better if you're actually hitting champs though, especially with green pot, because the added crit/crit damage is big.
If you're getting lifesteal Bloodthirster is obviously good for that too, but I've never really felt a pressing need for lifesteal as TF personally.
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I think lifesteal is a necessity on anybody who isn't just standing out of range sending in skillshots (hello lux/ez). Without any lifesteal, if I sell Doran's, I can solo push a lane, pull minion aggro from a few waves of minions, and wind up down a fair percentage even lategame. What about Starks as a speed item and with a damage item of your choice? Helps with BDs and aurabitchin' is never a bad thing.
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A solo pusher doesn't really want Stark's. After all he SOLO pushes. You can just stay at Recurve + Scepter or build something from either of those. Finishing Stark's mostly gives you the aura, so it's not as important if you are always doing your own thing.
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I always go with this hybrid build, i find that it lets me burst for a good deal of damage and have something to follow up the burst or backdoor if it comes down to that.
Items
1. sheen (start the game with a sapphire crystal and 2 hp pots)
2. Beserker Greaves (or Sorcerer's Shoes)
3. Guinsoo's rageblade
4.Sheen into Lich Bane
5. Nashor's tooth
6. Either Rylai's Scepter or Zhonya's Ring depending on how your game's going
7. Bloodthirster
Mejai's Soulstealer if your game is going really really well.
Masteries: 9/0/21
Runes
Magic Pen Quints (can be replaced with flat health)
Magic Pen Marks
CDR Glyphs
Attack Speed Seals
Summoner Spells
Flash and Exhaust
I find flash to be absolutely necessary on an uber squishy champ like TF, the other spell can be whatever you see fit (preferably exhaust/ignite/ghost)
Skills
R>Q>E>W
Put 1 into W at the very beginning of the game, then proceed to put 1 in Q every time you can (except when you can level up your R of course), then max out E, and then W
Hope this helped somebody 
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What are people's opinions on going Sheen -> Tear -> Archangel's -> Manamune and following with Guinsoo's/Nashor's/Leechbane/survivability...
Apart from the obvious fact that tear will not have any instant bonuses meaning a weaker early-mid game it feels that this build is more cost effective than other hybrid builds.
Is there something I'm missing?
Also assuming this is viable should one get Manamune before Archangel's since it lets you charge your tear faster?
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I don't see why you'd get Tear because I don't have mana problems as TF (the only way you can really run out is if you use Wild Cards a lot anyway). Run mp5pl runes if you really have problems. TF only has about 900 mana at level 18, so AA + Manamune gets him to ~2650 -> AA gives 125 AP and Manamune gives 73 AD for 5000 gold (these numbers go up a bit if you get more mana, like from Sheen, but I don't see how it's even possible to spend 2600 mana on TF usefully so any mana you get at this point is wasted gold to begin with). Gunblades give similar AD/AP per gold spent (60 AD and 75 AP for 3625), and on top of that come with lifesteal, spellvamp, and an active, and you only lose out on max mana and mana regen that you shouldn't need.
(Zhonya's beats out Archangel's for AP anyway. 120 + 25% AP for 3460 from Zhonya's, compared to 125 for 2900 from AA. Even if Zhonya's is your only source of AP you get slightly more AP per gold, plus you get a really nice active ... and if you're getting Rageblade there's really no contest).
Rageblade is good though, since Wild Cards is almost enough to keep it stacked on its own and it's disgustingly efficient.
I think I'd rather go Rageblade + Gunblade if you want hybrid, it's more efficient and it kicks in faster. From there add in Lichbane or attack speed (Malady/SotD perhaps) probably.
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Just owned a game as DPS TF.
My build:
Arpen marks
Dodge yellows
CDR/lvl blues
Arpen quints
Open Doran's blade
Rush malady
Zerks
BT
LW
SotD
Infinity
New LW worked WONDERS on TF.
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I don't get how the new LW is better than the old one. I dont' get how they didn't just stun you and rofl you when you have no hp. malady and no BR? IE with no other crit? one game where they other team was stupid is.... not very good proof.
going sheen then following up with... chargeable items is just a very meh build choice. it's like you're trying to gain an early advantage with sheen... then throw it away to farm up an... AP build.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 19 2010 20:09 stet_tcl wrote:
What are people's opinions on going Sheen -> Tear -> Archangel's -> Manamune and following with Guinsoo's/Nashor's/Leechbane/survivability...
Apart from the obvious fact that tear will not have any instant bonuses meaning a weaker early-mid game it feels that this build is more cost effective than other hybrid builds.
Is there something I'm missing?
Also assuming this is viable should one get Manamune before Archangel's since it lets you charge your tear faster?
Cost-effectiveness doesn't mean a whole lot when you're spending money on two Tears on a champ that has zero mana issues regardless of how you build him.
I still don't really like building hybrid on TF, because he doesn't have any form of hybrid scaling, so the only real reason you're getting hybrid items on him is cuz you think the items are cool (when they'd scale more effectively for a true hybrid champ).
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how do you lane as ad tf? he seems really weak early game because unless your opponents try to face you off in autoattack exchanges (letting you proc your passive) that its too easy for an ashe to get a slowing arrow and a volley at you for one stun, which is a bad trade imo when both of you only have a dblade, and after your stun you might get one autoattack before she can start kiting you with slowing arrows etc
There are some hints in the third post for TF, but they seem to be mostly oriented towards AP tf (procing sheen etc.) and AP tf is straightforward enough to play even early game. like ofc after you get a certain number of items porting in -> stun and auto does massive damage, even feasibly at 6, but right now there seem to be too many champions who can take just as much advantage of your early port as you can (ashe arrows into your port and follows up with volley kiting or something, any ad carry with mobility and a long range ult (MF, ez, and corki) can use their passive/mobility skill to get out of range and ult you, malphite ults into it and ruins your stun, etc. etc.).
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well you can harass the opponent with red cards.
You don't hit them but the creeps before them, so they get hit by the outer edge of the AoE effect.
You rarely trade autoattacks or anything. Just rush to lvl 6.
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United States4126 Posts
Most opponents are trained to back off when they see pick a card above your head. Reds rarely hit since the card above your head tells them to GTFO.
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lol as tf i just spam PaC and harass with whatever card happens to pop up first
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On December 28 2010 23:45 HeavOnEarth wrote:
lol as tf i just spam PaC and harass with whatever card happens to pop up first
the finesse! :D
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Hey I'm thinking of starting up TF. What's the standard nowadays? It seems that AD, AP, and hybrid all have their uses.
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standard is to not pick tf
everything works
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United States47024 Posts
Don't forget about tank TF!
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Trying to figure out what will carry the hardest in solo queue, AP or AD. Felt like with AD I can't really win my lane at all if im mid vs a strong AP carry, just way to weak damage early on. AP is better for laning but im not sure how his lategame scaling is, havent played enough games. Any input?
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Play whichever your team needs, both are decent imoimo
The main point is to use your ult effectively to HUEHUE RAPE the other team
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On May 03 2011 23:05 Senx wrote:
Trying to figure out what will carry the hardest in solo queue, AP or AD. Felt like with AD I can't really win my lane at all if im mid vs a strong AP carry, just way to weak damage early on. AP is better for laning but im not sure how his lategame scaling is, havent played enough games. Any input?
How about play your best champ as much as possible and try to minimize your mistakes?
o.O
It's not really about picking the champion with the most flat influence in a team fight because most 1500-1700 players can play carries semi decently but very few good tanks/supports/junglers.
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On May 03 2011 23:17 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 23:05 Senx wrote:
Trying to figure out what will carry the hardest in solo queue, AP or AD. Felt like with AD I can't really win my lane at all if im mid vs a strong AP carry, just way to weak damage early on. AP is better for laning but im not sure how his lategame scaling is, havent played enough games. Any input?
How about play your best champ as much as possible and try to minimize your mistakes? o.O It's not really about picking the champion with the most flat influence in a team fight because most 1500-1700 players can play carries semi decently but very few good tanks/supports/junglers.
Well I just feel like you need to abuse global ults while they are still in the game. The 1500 isn't so much about pure team fights, because people are never in position nor do they know how to initiate or how to not get caught before a fight even starts -- its usually just about setting up ganks and gaining map control so thats why I've started learning TF.
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AD TF
Exhaust Flash // Ignite Flash // Revive Flash
15/0/15
R > W > E > Q
Dblade/Dshield/boots first
SOTD
Zerkers or Mercs
Ghostblade
I-edge if focusing carries // Black Cleaver if tanks // MBR if lots of hp
Run around in lane blue carding anytime it's up. When your e is on 3 stacks try to get a PaC or autoattack off. You can also gold card // red card at 2 and get another hit off.
When you're 6 look for ganks.
ezpz
AP TF
Ghost Flash // Ignite Flash // Revive Flash
9/0/21
dring
dring 2
Sorc Boots
Deathcap
Hourglass
Lichbane
R>Q>W>E get 1 point in e early at 4.
Run around blue carding shit. Late game you can Red Card + Q to clear a full wave in 2hits.
Be #1 poker
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Why you copy jiji's build
By the way, AP TF actually chunks towers harder come late game because you push W or Q and half the tower's life is gone. Fun stuff.
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Uhm so Jijji doesnt get an early sheen on AP TF? Im trying to find a VOD of him on AP TF but keep finding AD :S
Also boots + pots as first items seems beast for that AP harass
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He goes Boots-> Dringx2->Sheen
He'll also switch out whether he gets Lichbane/Hourglass first depending on how he's doing v the other team's carries.
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On May 03 2011 23:30 Senx wrote:
Uhm so Jijji doesnt get an early sheen on AP TF? Im trying to find a VOD of him on AP TF but keep finding AD :S
Also boots + pots as first items seems beast for that AP harass
Boots usually don´t work because TF has bad range. Boots first are for when you have a matchup that allows you to keep a distance where you can hurt the enemy but they can´t hurt you back, like Ashe vs. Sivir.
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Boots first is so that you get some pressure out of having your gold or red-card up, and have enough speed to back out before the retaliation.
Boots TF is definitely legit.
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United States47024 Posts
I can't recall seeing any high Elo TF players start with anything but boots since the Doran's change, save for a few attempts at DShield starts, which basically stopped after the first week.
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On May 03 2011 23:26 HazMat wrote:
AD TF
Exhaust Flash // Ignite Flash // Revive Flash
15/0/15
R > W > E > Q
Dblade/Dshield/boots first
SOTD
Zerkers or Mercs
Ghostblade
I-edge if focusing carries // Black Cleaver if tanks // MBR if lots of hp
Run around in lane blue carding anytime it's up. When your e is on 3 stacks try to get a PaC or autoattack off. You can also gold card // red card at 2 and get another hit off.
When you're 6 look for ganks.
ezpz
real fknoob AD TF build. 9/0/21 still, with PaC changes, u need dat mpen, but other than that better to just have better CDs.
always start boots + 3 hp pots, can't do shit without it.
then 2 dblades otherwise you lose literally every lane. then your build is good except BC not really good vs. real tanks. It's best vs. like, Melee DPS jerks in the 100-120 armor range (well, anyone in that range, like, AP carries who have hourglass or AD carries who have bloodrazor or vs. teams with Jarman/Taric + Aegis who accidentally bump dat armor up above your sicknasty 75 Armor Pen). Also should mention Omen is really good for winning 1v1s if the opposing split push defender is an AD champ. Also i dun really like IE, but that might just be me. I think BT is better for keeping your HP high while split pushing and 1v1ing. Oh yea, and I leave it as just brutalizer until I get a BF sword and then I get ghostblade.
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United States47024 Posts
Thoughts on Triforce or Mallet+Atma's as GB/SotD followups? I've seen jiji use both at times, but I can't be sure of how troll they are.
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seems legit. I mean, one of the things that's really gay about TF is that he can just spec for 1v1ing and rape people because he's a ranged carry with a 2 second stun on a 4 second CD (after all the CDR, though with pick timing it's more like 5 or 6 second CD). Trifroce/Mallet + Atma's builds are just mean because it's so hard to run from and he accidentally ends up pretty tanky, so you have a hell of a time holding 1v1 vs. him, so then you have to send 2 people to stop his push and then ult makes a 5v3 on the other side of the map GG. real fkingay champ.
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On May 04 2011 02:08 TheYango wrote:
I can't recall seeing any high Elo TF players start with anything but boots since the Doran's change, save for a few attempts at DShield starts, which basically stopped after the first week.
Jiji still goes dblase a lot of games, though boots is optimal.
Smash, that's just because you're a 21 utility whore. Also, I don't see the point of Omens when TF can beat any carry in a 1v1 situation. I also don't see why Jiji gets phage on TF when you've got a stun on a 3.5sec cd. I'd rather get IE and kill them in the duration that they're stunned.
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srsly tho, 1 mana/5, 1% MS, 6% CDR, 15% Summoner CDR vs. 6 ArPen + 3 AD, Utility just seems better to me.
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Well I don't run any mp5 on TF as he has infinite mana and I like the apen since you get 31apen + the 30 from SOTD and crush fknoobgizmos early, though lategame I do miss the ability cdr a lot.
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Meh, you're probably right. I still like 21offence TF the most.
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I don't run mana regen either huehueheueheue, but I'm just saying Utility > Offensive because summoner spells are imba and so are gold cards (probably less of a deal for you since you always blue, never gold).
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Can Neo update that TF build. Sheen rush is disgusting and am I the only person who thinks lvling E over W on AP TF is herpderp.
and mp5 runes on any type of tf are fksk
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Ghost/Flash or Ghost/Cleanse?
I like boots > sheen > trinity > GRB > GB quite a lot. Infinite pushing power.
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Anything + flash works tbh.
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ghost real nub, flash is pro. And 2nd summoner is whatever you need to win 1v1s against their team (Ignite vs. vlad/ww/mundo, Exhaust vs. Xin-like assholes, Cleanse vs. stupid long CCs)
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I saw this player named MikakoTabe use TF a few days ago. Singlehandedly destroyed the opposing team. Wild cards were taking off 2/3 life damage off most of the players towards the end.
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oh god don't listen to mikakotabe lul
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lol sry. I think I did a worse thing by watching Rhazelle's stream, whose team got destroyed by him. keke
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On May 07 2011 02:32 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
oh god don't listen to mikakotabe lul
On May 07 2011 02:10 broz0rs wrote:
I saw this player named MikakoTabe use TF a few days ago. Singlehandedly destroyed the opposing team. Wild cards were taking off 2/3 life damage off most of the players towards the end.
mikako is an amazing player
no sarcasm
probably the best non korean,non na,non eu player in game
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no, bra drz def #1 non korean, non na, no eu player in game
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Since Twisted Fate got a new game potrait, I'll present my greedy BD TF build !
Goal is to aim a 35 min ~ 45 min game.
characteristics: you'll get plenty of gold ~20k Gold, enough for your full build of whatever you want ! and kill the enemy by BD or straight up teamfight !
Runes: A.Speed reds , Hp/lvl yellows, CDR/lvl blues, GOLD Quints !
Masteries: 8/1/21 , with CDR on offensive tree, revive on defensive tree, and Gold on util tree and standard CDR/Summoners.
Summoners: Revive/Teleport
Skills: Q->W->Q->E->Q->R then R>Q>E>W
1. Start with brawlers Gloves and go mid or duo lane (preferably mid).
2. last hit + spam Q to kill minions asap, and go shopping immeadiately after 350~400 gold, for Avr. Blade. Then TP back. at around 2:xx minutes.
3. Last hit minions and use Q only to last hit AND dont push the lane, until u get 750 gold AND LVL 6. at some minutes later (5:xx ~6:xx minutes), go shopping for the 2nd Avrice Blade and ULT back to ur lane. If coincidently u can Ult + Kill at the other lane do it but its safer to just Ult back to ur lane and not waste time.
4. Farm up for ur 3rd Avrice blade and shop and TP back (should be available , back from CD by now).
5. early game: farm up and def your towers. Buy Boot lvl 1, and go for Zeal as 2nd Item.
6. If the teams start to stack at mid with a stalemate go to the sidelanes and farm, and have good Map awareness to TP back when they come for you. Farm up Infinity Edge, with BF sword as 1st item. Then either finish Zeal or save money for a bigger item. ( you should not sell Avrice Blades by that time 23:xx ~27:xx minutes.
7. Do your standard TF pushing game. until u hit 3k Gold , and sell one of your Avrice Blades, to buy a bigger item.
I prefer a IE/Phantom Dancer/2 x Warmogs/Atma/Bloodthirster (boots sold) build by the end of the game.
8. At around 3x:xx minutes you can sell Avarice Blades and own hard with your massive gold.
usually i get around 14~15k Gold at the 30 minutes mark. enough for IE/Phantom dancer/Boots/ 1 x warmogs
and finish the game with usually over 22 k Gold.
Have fun BD with Revive/Ult/TP. Or just straight up fights with ~5k HP / 300 dmg/1.55 atk speed TF.
P.S: And yeah use ur Ult/TP to farm like a mad man !
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=9766762#post9766762
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On May 04 2011 04:18 HazMat wrote:
Can Neo update that TF build. Sheen rush is disgusting and am I the only person who thinks lvling E over W on AP TF is herpderp.
and mp5 runes on any type of tf are fksk
I level W over E most of the time. The added stun duration is just too important to pass over, no matter what build you're going.
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On June 10 2011 09:06 O-ops wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 04:18 HazMat wrote:
Can Neo update that TF build. Sheen rush is disgusting and am I the only person who thinks lvling E over W on AP TF is herpderp.
and mp5 runes on any type of tf are fksk I level W over E most of the time. The added stun duration is just too important to pass over, no matter what build you're going.
Yes, should always lvl w over e.
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How does Jiji or other top players currently build TF?
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On June 11 2011 09:51 lynx.oblige wrote:
How does Jiji or other top players currently build TF?
The last time I saw hotshot play him (about 3-4 weeks ago) he went:
Boots+Pots
2x Dring
Sheen -> Deathcap (Sorcboots somewhere between sheen and the first AP item)
Lichbane
Zhonyas
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I think jiji usually goes
Dring
Dring + boots
Deathcap
Sheen/lichbane
sorc boots
zhonya
I notice he likes to leave his boots really late
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Jiji always starts boots. Without it, you can't threaten Gold Card.
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standard high elo tf
9/0/21
ignite or exhaust / flash (yes,u dont need ghost)
magic pen reds
ap/lvl yellows and blues
flat ap or magic pen quints (flat ap better for early,magic pen better for mid game but flat ap catches up once u get lichbane and deathcap)
get W level 1 for teamfights,pulling buffs,lane control etc
max Q,take E at 4,max W
R whenever u can
start boot x 3 pots->1~2 doran rings-> deatcap -> lichbane -> zhonya -> voidstaff
random tips
-spam W early in lane to maintain mana,harass opponents,push out lane. hit fast 6 and gank asap
-W icon changes color when ur "picking" ur card, so u can use ult look at the lane u wanna port to and pick a card while not looking at ur champ and port in
-fastest way to clear creeps is to red card the 2nd melee minion and Q straight down the melee and the ranged creeps when they are coming at u in a line(when they haven't clashed with ur creeps yet)
-its always good to make sure ur E is stacked before porting in for a gank
-animation canceling(auto->moving->auto) is especially important as tf due to his slow natural attack speed and quirky animation
-pretty basic tip,u can use the hourglass active while porting with ult for unstoppable port !!!
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wouldnt you get void before zhonya ? It seems to me that's a pretty situational order.
and ap tf is often fucked if he gets close enough that zhonya is needed :C
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Zhonya is so that you can start your utli and Zhonya while it's still going. 100% safe ulti to run away as long as you can start the teleport portion.
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On June 12 2011 07:01 dnastyx wrote:
Zhonya is so that you can start your utli and Zhonya while it's still going. 100% safe ulti to run away as long as you can start the teleport portion.
This. You can't really die easily and you can abuse your OP BD by just pushing a tower and ulting out no matter what.
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I was running HPL yellows to give him some buff to HP but I forgot to consider a couple rings -_-
And yeah, TF OP.
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AP/Attackspeed TF is the strongest. There's no reason to skip out on Rageblade on him ever, its such a good item due to his low cooldowns and attackspeed proc. I think the build goes like Mana Crystal, Boots, Sheen, Berserker Greaves, Rageblade. After that, Sword of the Divine, LicheBane, Zhonya's.
T-Fate when properly used puts a time limit on the opponent's ability to win the game because he can push any lane at any time extremely quickly AND still be available to defend if a teamfight occurs using the combination of his ult and Teleport. If not properly defended T-Fate can easily win games on his own. By continuously lane-jumping you get a lot of gold and exp and the threat of T-Fate ganks forces opponents to bunch up, limiting their own farm and xp.
T-Fate pairs well with teammates that defend effectively. Morgana (and Lux in some cases), Malzahar, and Caitlin come to mind. Raw push compositions like T-Fate/Sivir can win the game very quickly against unprepared squads.
Push T-Fate is hard countered by Pantheon, who can respond to your teleports with his own ult and prevent you from pushing, and then murder you in the 1v1 situation that follows after. One of the things that really prevents a lot of T-Fate usage is the threat of a Pantheon pick, and most pro teams know enough to ban T-Fate if Pantheon gets banned (or just gank him to hell early and delay his tele).
And the reason you level E over W is so that you can push towers like a boss. Stop trying to teamfight everyone with T-Fate.
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Note*
*The above post is exactly how you do not play TF.
Listen to locodoco he knows what he's talking about.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On June 12 2011 14:43 Deezl wrote:
AP/Attackspeed TF is the strongest. There's no reason to skip out on Rageblade on him ever.
I stopped reading here.
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One of the things that really prevents a lot of T-Fate usage is the threat of a Pantheon pick, and most pro teams know enough to ban T-Fate if Pantheon gets banned (or just gank him to hell early and delay his tele).
Please tell me which pro teams ban Pantheon.
EDIT: Wait, I heard the SEA teams ban Panth because their best player is a Panth player?
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the build loco suggests is optimized, follow it
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On June 12 2011 15:45 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
the build loco suggests is optimized, follow it
its the best for ap tf, but i also feel like aspeed/proc based tf has a place in the game as well. i usually go something along the lines of sotd/gb/pdancer or something along those lines (he has a shitton of situational items so its kinda hard to give a real core build except for sotd) with exhaust/flash instead of ignite, and then run 15/0/15 masteries when i want to do that sort of build
And the reason you level E over W is so that you can push towers like a boss. Stop trying to teamfight everyone with T-Fate.
yeah, kus e totally procs on towers.....
edit: i suppose i shouldnt be so mean, i remember way back when when i argued with smash over tf builds and advocated some fucktarded hybrid build. i was such a bear cub back then
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T-Fate best Fate
always gate, always bait
its a lot easier to have frontloaded damage on towers with AP stack / lich procs, especially in situations where you are pushing / splitpushing coordinated-ly with your team, as the time intervals where you can hit a tower without threat of getting cc-comboed are quite small.
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everyone's a scrub at first. it's just annoying when they come in here talking about "no reason to skip out on Rageblade on him ever" and "pro teams knowing about the Pantheon ban" to someone like Loco. it would be nice if people entering gaming communities did so with a little bit of humility, but experience has taught me not to expect this.
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why u pick on my choice of words );
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I've been playing ap tf for awhile cause it's a great solo que stomp, ultimate and pushing power is too strong, and having lots of cc is great... following loco's guidelines for tf now, I tend to have to blue card a lot, and I suck vs akali, but overall really solid.
It's quite amusing to take tf then tell everyone I'm building ap then to get nothing but whining and why oh why in champ select, i have been que dodged at least three times now. <3 my elo
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lol that's interesting to see how ap TF is so frowned upon. I think he's one of the scariest hard carrys I ever seen in this game.
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On June 16 2011 07:15 broz0rs wrote:
lol that's interesting to see how ap TF is so frowned upon. I think he's one of the scariest hard carrys I ever seen in this game.
? ? ? I think my english is bad because i just understood your post as "people say AP TF is bad" while in reality everyone knows that AP TF is a beast. TF is banned quite often at my Elo and if you meant "AP vs AD" then I haven't seen AD TF in like 3 months.
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AP TF in lower ELO is frowned upon b/c lower ELO playershave no skill nor game knowledge but big egos.
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On June 16 2011 08:39 BlackPaladin wrote:
AP TF in lower ELO is frowned upon b/c lower ELO playershave no skill nor game knowledge but big egos.
this so hard
last game there was an AP TF on the other team that was doing pretty poorly and was still like 10-5-10 with 3 towers against us and our team was saying things like "oh my god AP TF is such a waste what a bad player what a bad champ" and i lol'd
we still won, but only because i was playing vayne, who's even more of a herp-derp free-win champ.
on the same note, i have yet to lose with vayne in ranked because people would rather ban mordekaiser and shen than her. it's awesome how stupid low elo people are. "ban mordekaiser what an OP champ he can build pure tank and sorcs and 1shot your carry" okay great thanks leave vayne open. mordekaiser much better ban with his cc, 3 second cd flash, invisibility, chasing ability, and %-based true dama-OHWAITLOL
anyways what i'm getting at here is, get good at AP TF (and vayne!) and abuse the shit out of him if you're a low elo player, because you will ALWAYS be underestimated and every game is a free win
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On June 16 2011 08:50 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 08:39 BlackPaladin wrote:
AP TF in lower ELO is frowned upon b/c lower ELO playershave no skill nor game knowledge but big egos. this so hard last game there was an AP TF on the other team that was doing pretty poorly and was still like 10-5-10 with 3 towers against us and our team was saying things like "oh my god AP TF is such a waste what a bad player what a bad champ" and i lol'd we still won, but only because i was playing vayne, who's even more of a herp-derp free-win champ. on the same note, i have yet to lose with vayne in ranked because people would rather ban mordekaiser and shen than her. it's awesome how stupid low elo people are. "ban mordekaiser what an OP champ he can build pure tank and sorcs and 1shot your carry" okay great thanks leave vayne open. mordekaiser much better ban with his cc, 3 second cd flash, invisibility, chasing ability, and %-based true dama-OHWAITLOL anyways what i'm getting at here is, get good at AP TF (and vayne!) and abuse the shit out of him if you're a low elo player, because you will ALWAYS be underestimated and every game is a free win
Yeah Vayne seems to be actually banned a lot more though it's hilarious when you get him, I won a 4v5 the other day with 2 feeders on my team of 4 cause the other team didn't end the game soon enough.. once you get past that AD item + Zeal point vayne is really unstoppable. , but it's really sad I've gotten last pick TF a ton at 1300ish, although doesn't really matter got to jungle tank nunu/mumu since already have 4 carries that all want solo lane since it's solo que.
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lul. according to patch notes, hourglass is gonna interrupt tf's ult now. goodbye perfect escape~~
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On June 22 2011 13:04 goldenkrnboi wrote:
lul. according to patch notes, hourglass is gonna interrupt tf's ult now. goodbye perfect escape~~
This makes me sad..... I used to abuse this to no end bd'ing with ap tf.
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I hope this is a good enough reason to bump...
So I got Twisted Fate on a whim. He looked cool, with nifty abilities.
I just can't figure this guy out. AD/AS builds seem like they'd be good, but his range is so abysmally crap. It's that bad middling distance where it's too close for comfort to melee (one charge/jump and they're on you), and to short for ranged (they can kill you before you even get close).
AP works... ok. There's no real burst that other AP carries have. If you land a GC/WC combo, you do alright damage and stun, but then they break out and you're way too squishy to just stand there and take it. So you end up trying to poke and then blitz them while they're low, but if they play smart/safe, it doesn't work out too well.
What am I missing? Can someone point out a good guide or video for tips?
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On August 26 2011 02:13 Zenithal wrote:
I hope this is a good enough reason to bump...
So I got Twisted Fate on a whim. He looked cool, with nifty abilities.
I just can't figure this guy out. AD/AS builds seem like they'd be good, but his range is so abysmally crap. It's that bad middling distance where it's too close for comfort to melee (one charge/jump and they're on you), and to short for ranged (they can kill you before you even get close).
AP works... ok. There's no real burst that other AP carries have. If you land a GC/WC combo, you do alright damage and stun, but then they break out and you're way too squishy to just stand there and take it. So you end up trying to poke and then blitz them while they're low, but if they play smart/safe, it doesn't work out too well.
What am I missing? Can someone point out a good guide or video for tips?
You don't rape teamfights as well as other AP carries, but you help other lanes SO much more than other AP carries. With Annie and stuff, unless your lane partner makes a big mistake you're not getting any kills pre drag. With TF you can be 4-0 by the time your team runs dragon.
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On August 26 2011 02:22 BouBou.865 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:13 Zenithal wrote:
I hope this is a good enough reason to bump...
So I got Twisted Fate on a whim. He looked cool, with nifty abilities.
I just can't figure this guy out. AD/AS builds seem like they'd be good, but his range is so abysmally crap. It's that bad middling distance where it's too close for comfort to melee (one charge/jump and they're on you), and to short for ranged (they can kill you before you even get close).
AP works... ok. There's no real burst that other AP carries have. If you land a GC/WC combo, you do alright damage and stun, but then they break out and you're way too squishy to just stand there and take it. So you end up trying to poke and then blitz them while they're low, but if they play smart/safe, it doesn't work out too well.
What am I missing? Can someone point out a good guide or video for tips? You don't rape teamfights as well as other AP carries, but you help other lanes SO much more than other AP carries. With Annie and stuff, unless your lane partner makes a big mistake you're not getting any kills pre drag. With TF you can be 4-0 by the time your team runs dragon.
How should I be playing him to get that kind of score? I fear that if I play too aggressively to try and pick off a champ, I'll overextend, with no real escape tool (gate at 6, but that's not reliable. I hate looking at the scoreboard and seeing myself with only 1-3 kills and everyone else at like 7+. I just feel that his only real damage as AP comes from WC, which is good but doesn't do enough by itself to be a threat to other players.
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TF's damage should come from:
WC+Pick a Card + E proc + Sheen/Lich Bane proc
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On August 26 2011 02:52 freelander wrote:
TF's damage should come from:
WC+Pick a Card + E proc + Sheen/Lich Bane proc
Still, even on a squishy carry that's only like a fifth of the health bar before you need to run away to keep yourself from dying. Is that how you're supposed to play, just chip away and hope you catch them in a bad spot? Or should you try to push your advantage and aggressively run in and attack?
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that's half hp of a squishy or more. Then you fall back a little wait for your CD's. Why would you wanna run in?
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I guess I'm just kind of used to Trist and Corki (my better characters), who don't back off and just jump in and kill things. I'm not used to the "poke, poke, kill!" style.
And when I say run in, I mean when do you decide to sit behind your minions and when do you decide to go forward for the kill?
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well you have to play TF as a giant pussy and keep in mind that you basicly can't 1v1 anyone. but he is really strong when someone comes to gank, thanks to the low cd stun. You can use that 2 times almost everytime there is a gank.
and thanks to your ultimate you can create really non-fair situations for the other team.
When to go in: it comes with experience. When you feel you are not in danger and can deal a lot of damage, you go in. Don't get caught in any CC, because then you die. I can't really say any specifics.
TF is one of the harder champs to use. You need good gamesense and map awareness (Where should I teleport? , What can I do with my teleport), also quick judgement (if I teleport there can I kill them and not die, what to do with the teleport ) and good mechanics for fast pick a card usage.
Actually, you should almost never use your jumps to get in as Corki or Trist. When there is a free kill, yeea of course (but you will still regret that a few times when 2 of their teammates just get there from thin air and CC you). But in a teamfight, it's generally a rule of thumb to use jumps on squishies to get away from divers like Irelia, Xin etc.
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I meant more jumping in to kill someone weak. A 20% health anything dies to a Corki who jumps on him and GG/MB/AA's them. Tristana can even jump in, snipe an enemy to reset Rocket Jump's cooldown, then jump out again.
TF doesn't seem to have this. When a low-health enemy is running, I can try to Gate ahead and cut them off, but if they're determined to get away catching up isn't happening. You can slow or stun, but the short range makes it rather unlikely if they have any sort of escape mechanism at all. Your best bets to go for the kill are Gating ahead or use a Summoner (ghost or flash) to get in range.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
wait until they compensate for tf's useless ult to play him (if they ever do)
they neutered him from amazing to not quite useless but no reason to pick him really
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the OP guide is really out of date here...
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they neutered him from OP to not quite useless but no reason to pick him. that ult made him a threat to all lanes on map early game and allowed him to do some really strong pushes with little to no threats.
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Dominion brings utility back to his ult...the cooldown is pretty low considering, so hopping between control points is a breeze. I've been having a lot of luck with TF on Dominion.
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I realise AP TF is optimal these days, but I've been playing around with AD and finding it hard to itemise.
Have optimal AD builds changed much? Is SotD really worth getting? Do I do a standard BF > Zeal > LW kind of build, or a Triforce Corki / Ez style build?
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On June 22 2011 13:04 goldenkrnboi wrote:
lul. according to patch notes, hourglass is gonna interrupt tf's ult now. goodbye perfect escape~~
Any word on whether this will affect stealthers like twitch too? I'd really wanted to try hourglass on AD twitch with his q. Near perfect escape.
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On November 28 2011 08:10 Happy Frog wrote:
I realise AP TF is optimal these days, but I've been playing around with AD and finding it hard to itemise.
Have optimal AD builds changed much? Is SotD really worth getting? Do I do a standard BF > Zeal > LW kind of build, or a Triforce Corki / Ez style build?
Is this true? I usually build him straight AD. IE -> Blood Thirster with an Avarice Blade thrown in... I thought the scaling on his AD was higher than his AP... Correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
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he doesn't scale from ad at all
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His red card scales better with ad than ap, that's it. AD tf is all about dat sweet E passive and killing people in gold card stun with sweet auto attack damage. Which is why AD tf is so meh compared to AP tf. AD tf just has no damage, comparatively, to AP tf until late-game.
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So what do you build on him? Straight AP like Deathcap or more of a Jax type hybrid deal? I can see Rageblade being a useful item for TF.
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On November 29 2011 03:46 Terranasaur wrote:
So what do you build on him? Straight AP like Deathcap or more of a Jax type hybrid deal? I can see Rageblade being a useful item for TF.
Rageblade is not good for him. At all. He does not need the attackspeed and while Rageblade is an insanely costefficient item, it's not for TF. Depending on how you play him, you can either go Boots 3 Pots, 2-3 Doran, straight Deathcap into Lichbane, or throw a Sheen in before you get the NLR for the Deathcap. Personally, I prefer the first option. Runes would be MPen red, AP/lvl yellow, AP/lvl blue, MS or AP Quint.
Dyrus just released a guide on him.
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On November 28 2011 08:10 Happy Frog wrote:
I realise AP TF is optimal these days, but I've been playing around with AD and finding it hard to itemise.
Have optimal AD builds changed much? Is SotD really worth getting? Do I do a standard BF > Zeal > LW kind of build, or a Triforce Corki / Ez style build?
I've been playing a load of TF recently and I'm going..
Avarice Blade > Zealx2 > TrinityForce > PD > IE > PD.
run crit chance reds and Gold/10 quints.
Pretty erm.. interesting build, I tried it out first as sort of just joking around but with gold/10 masteries and tele, you can afk farm really well. Just use tele(or your imba mvtspd) to get to a lane, push it until you think you're about to get ganked, destiny into another lane, etc. It's really the only way I've found ADTF to be successful. Outfarm everyone. Once you get your "core" of Trinity/PD/BFsword, you can do massive damage in the space of a goldcard and you can outrun most champions. (if you juke the 1st blink, you can even outrun kassadin)
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On November 29 2011 04:45 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:10 Happy Frog wrote:
I realise AP TF is optimal these days, but I've been playing around with AD and finding it hard to itemise.
Have optimal AD builds changed much? Is SotD really worth getting? Do I do a standard BF > Zeal > LW kind of build, or a Triforce Corki / Ez style build? I've been playing a load of TF recently and I'm going.. Avarice Blade > Zealx2 > TrinityForce > PD > IE > PD. run crit chance reds and Gold/10 quints. Pretty erm.. interesting build, I tried it out first as sort of just joking around but with gold/10 masteries and tele, you can afk farm really well. Just use tele(or your imba mvtspd) to get to a lane, push it until you think you're about to get ganked, destiny into another lane, etc. It's really the only way I've found ADTF to be successful. Outfarm everyone. Once you get your "core" of Trinity/PD/BFsword, you can do massive damage in the space of a goldcard and you can outrun most champions. (if you juke the 1st blink, you can even outrun kassadin)
Where do you lane and how do you get any farming done considering literally every laner in this game poops on you (you being AD TF not itemizing for ANY survivability)?
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On November 29 2011 04:45 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:10 Happy Frog wrote:
I realise AP TF is optimal these days, but I've been playing around with AD and finding it hard to itemise.
Have optimal AD builds changed much? Is SotD really worth getting? Do I do a standard BF > Zeal > LW kind of build, or a Triforce Corki / Ez style build? I've been playing a load of TF recently and I'm going.. Avarice Blade > Zealx2 > TrinityForce > PD > IE > PD. run crit chance reds and Gold/10 quints. Pretty erm.. interesting build, I tried it out first as sort of just joking around but with gold/10 masteries and tele, you can afk farm really well. Just use tele(or your imba mvtspd) to get to a lane, push it until you think you're about to get ganked, destiny into another lane, etc. It's really the only way I've found ADTF to be successful. Outfarm everyone. Once you get your "core" of Trinity/PD/BFsword, you can do massive damage in the space of a goldcard and you can outrun most champions. (if you juke the 1st blink, you can even outrun kassadin)
Why this is bad:
Avarice Blade is a crappy item, and you don't even build it into Ghostblade. If you buy sheen or boots2 or pretty much anything that helps you fight or survive you will make up for the farm from Avarice Blade and also have something useful.
Crit is a bad stat early in general, but especially on TF that doesn't have damage.
Tryhardity Force is ok, but you're getting it after 3k gold of crap. Moving fast is not that important and you will do 0 damage in fights until then.
You don't even get IE next. Trinity Force PD gives you a whopping... 120ish AD, +160 damage every fourth attack +180 right after you cast a spell +120 from the occasional crit. That sounds like a lot until you realize that IE PD is cheaper and hits for far more damage on average.
The next issue is the hideous diminishing returns on your movespeed, meaning a large portion of the value of the items is wasted.
Furthermore you have no survivability, which is just asking for it considering TF's crappy range. If the enemy team has anyone with a stun, root, snare, long ranged powerful slow (slows chump speed btw), or even something like master yi with cleanse or qss, you are going to get chewed up faster than a fresh grilled hot dog on frat party night.
Also you aren't at all specced for laning. Magic pen quints good, gp10 not good enough to make up for 0 cs in lane. You don't want to be stuck with support level farm. Run movespeed quints imo to make up for tf's crappy range. Other good choices are hp5, armor, and attack speed.
The fundamental problem with your build is a matter of synergy. DPS stats are multiplicative, which is to say that each point of AD makes each point of attackspeed, crit chance, and crit damage more valuable and vice versa.
The secondary problem is not playing to TF's strengths. If you want someone to autoattack dudes a lot, pick trist or kog or cait or ashe or pretty much anyone else with a ranged attack and a steroid.
TF's advantages are high mobility, a low cd single target stun, and free cdr?
This basically screams "split push and win 1v1s".
Either stick to "standard" AD items (BT PD something so you don't explode)
or go for a weird hybrid build (Triforce Gunblade Rageblade maybe?)
or stack onhit effects (Wits End SotD Bloodrazor - not all of those though)
or build a sort of tanky utility (Triforce Randuins etc)
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
tf is not meant to sit there and auto-attack anyway he's a kiting character. That's why you build him AP. I play him a lot in solo q might make a guide later
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On November 29 2011 06:31 Brees wrote:
tf is not meant to sit there and auto-attack anyway he's a kiting character. That's why you build him AP. I play him a lot in solo q might make a guide later
I think you should make that guide. I really like playing TF, I think he is a lot of fun and has one of the best taunts in the game. I'm just lost as to how to build him properly, but I've seen him in games where he just hits like a truck.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On November 29 2011 06:41 Terranasaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:31 Brees wrote:
tf is not meant to sit there and auto-attack anyway he's a kiting character. That's why you build him AP. I play him a lot in solo q might make a guide later I think you should make that guide. I really like playing TF, I think he is a lot of fun and has one of the best taunts in the game. I'm just lost as to how to build him properly, but I've seen him in games where he just hits like a truck.
build is really simple i can just type that here. its his playstyle thats difficult
open boots + 3 pots 21-9-0 masteries (vet scars against bursters, hp regen against pokers)
get 2 d rings when possible
then sorc boots if you need the mobility in lane or if its just a push war then rush for deathcap. get the other after.
After this you want lich bane then either hourglass or void staff depending on game. get other one. thats pretty much it
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On November 29 2011 06:14 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:45 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On November 28 2011 08:10 Happy Frog wrote:
I realise AP TF is optimal these days, but I've been playing around with AD and finding it hard to itemise.
Have optimal AD builds changed much? Is SotD really worth getting? Do I do a standard BF > Zeal > LW kind of build, or a Triforce Corki / Ez style build? I've been playing a load of TF recently and I'm going.. Avarice Blade > Zealx2 > TrinityForce > PD > IE > PD. run crit chance reds and Gold/10 quints. Pretty erm.. interesting build, I tried it out first as sort of just joking around but with gold/10 masteries and tele, you can afk farm really well. Just use tele(or your imba mvtspd) to get to a lane, push it until you think you're about to get ganked, destiny into another lane, etc. It's really the only way I've found ADTF to be successful. Outfarm everyone. Once you get your "core" of Trinity/PD/BFsword, you can do massive damage in the space of a goldcard and you can outrun most champions. (if you juke the 1st blink, you can even outrun kassadin) + Show Spoiler +
Why this is bad:
Avarice Blade is a crappy item, and you don't even build it into Ghostblade. If you buy sheen or boots2 or pretty much anything that helps you fight or survive you will make up for the farm from Avarice Blade and also have something useful.
Crit is a bad stat early in general, but especially on TF that doesn't have damage.
Tryhardity Force is ok, but you're getting it after 3k gold of crap. Moving fast is not that important and you will do 0 damage in fights until then.
You don't even get IE next. Trinity Force PD gives you a whopping... 120ish AD, +160 damage every fourth attack +180 right after you cast a spell +120 from the occasional crit. That sounds like a lot until you realize that IE PD is cheaper and hits for far more damage on average.
The next issue is the hideous diminishing returns on your movespeed, meaning a large portion of the value of the items is wasted.
Furthermore you have no survivability, which is just asking for it considering TF's crappy range. If the enemy team has anyone with a stun, root, snare, long ranged powerful slow (slows chump speed btw), or even something like master yi with cleanse or qss, you are going to get chewed up faster than a fresh grilled hot dog on frat party night.
Also you aren't at all specced for laning. Magic pen quints good, gp10 not good enough to make up for 0 cs in lane. You don't want to be stuck with support level farm. Run movespeed quints imo to make up for tf's crappy range. Other good choices are hp5, armor, and attack speed.
The fundamental problem with your build is a matter of synergy. DPS stats are multiplicative, which is to say that each point of AD makes each point of attackspeed, crit chance, and crit damage more valuable and vice versa.
The secondary problem is not playing to TF's strengths. If you want someone to autoattack dudes a lot, pick trist or kog or cait or ashe or pretty much anyone else with a ranged attack and a steroid.
TF's advantages are high mobility, a low cd single target stun, and free cdr?
This basically screams "split push and win 1v1s".
Either stick to "standard" AD items (BT PD something so you don't explode)
or go for a weird hybrid build (Triforce Gunblade Rageblade maybe?)
or stack onhit effects (Wits End SotD Bloodrazor - not all of those though)
or build a sort of tanky utility (Triforce Randuins etc)
Whoa, I never said my item build was any good or optimal in anyway, I just said it's the only time I've ever succeeded with AD TF
It started out as a not-serious build anyway, but I just thought it was funny. Against people in my ELO anyway 1300's/1400's, the element of surprise has won several games. I only get the trinforce early so I can get the mvtspd. I've had several singed refuse to accept that they were being out run by me and kited around in circles while my team wins the 4v4 (since singed was actually useful while I basically did nothing in teamfights). Or just last night, Akali came to stop me split pushing, couldn't catch me, team won the fight at baron.
The crit chance runes are pretty bad, but it does lead to some great/random comebacks in the lane if you get multiple crits. I find that TF bot generally loses lanes anyway, might as well let lady luck decide. Last hitting isn't SO bad with carefully placed, max range wildcards while spamming blue cards whenever you can.
Also, once you get Trinity/PD, you can actually 1v1 people pretty well. Yi runs at you, alphas, you gold card and see how many crits you get. Then just kite for a few seconds and repeat. You can generally outrun most people at that point (iirc like 456 mvt spd?).
Never teamfight, always splitpush. Mid game, your damage is negligible so pushing is your only use to the team. 1v1, even hard CC can't take you down. Unless they can kill you with 1 combo, something like.. Sion flashes in, uses full combo, you ALMOST die, flash back, stun, run. Once sion stops chasing, hide in a bush, turn, and keep pushing. This time he doesn't have flash and you have much more mvt speed so just repeat. Eventually, another enemy will come or a 4v4 teamfight will engage.
I mean, you're a goddamn gambler, I think it fits the theme. There was a game a few nights ago where enemy kassadin would constantly try to kill me; his combo would bring me to like 30% hp. I would then stun him and either
1. I get enough crits and he just dies
2. I get average amounts of crits and then its a race to see if I can kill him before his cds are up
3. I get few crits and I start running like hell.
Laning phase is tricky and the build relies completely on your ability to farm. Under no circumstance will I claim that this build is optimal or the best. I just really like it. Going a more standard BFitem rush generally leaves you wondering why you're playing TF as an AD carry.
EDIT: Oh, the reason I go for crit items is because I find it's the only way to make TF an auto attack character. You need to completely wreck someone within the space of one gold card or you'll get rocked. The only way I've managed to do that is by going crit and getting lucky with 3-4 crits in a row. Per gold, assuming you crit every hit, Trinforce/zeal/cloak beats out any other combination I could think of. In terms of auto attacks. There are probably more optimal ways of maximizing auto attack dmg in a 3 second window but... Trinforce, zeal, and zerks are all gold colored. I really liked that.
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I have been doing the same thing Dyrus says to do in his guide ever since I started playing TF. In fact most people who played TF before his nerf (like 6 months ago to global range) all built him just like that too. That's where I learned it. Sheen/Lichbane lets you destroy towers extremely fast as well as adds a ton of burst (especially lichbane). Just get a couple dorans, dcap and lichbane and that will do really well against 99% of team comps.
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Hey T_D, how's yr jungle TF coming along? Any VoDs/replays, or ...?
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So, Riot finally made TF's suggested items make more sense in the shop. You no longer have to go through the entire shop to buy items for him! Suggested items are Dring, Sorc Shoes, Dcap, Lich Bane, BV, and Void Staff. I guess Riot is finally embracing that TF is an AP carry and not an AD carry.
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TF is really strong right now, I still don't understand why nobody plays him.
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I want to play tf very much but with 200 ping I find it very hard to always get gold cards and when I preemptively lock in I still only have a 80% success rate. 
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Just played my first ever game with AP TF, holy shit this guy is so fun to play. Haven't had that much fun with an AP mid ever.
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lol he is fun to play, basically has 6 skills with his w. fun to gank, reveal hidden enemies, extremely versatile champ. i build him exactly the way it is in the reccomended items shop. may throw in a doran's ring for more suvivability.
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What's the jungle tf build?
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Sorry, I dont check this particular thread much, but since jungle TF was mentioned in the GD thread, I have appeared.
Current build: 8 aspeed 1 armpen red, armor yellows, mr/lvl blues, Armpen quints. 21-9-0. I THINK you can open boots, but I dont remember what I did the other day, and cloth 5 is safer if you are trying to do him for the first time.
order is w-e-w w>e>q, starting wolves-blue-wraiths- route.
The build I hit on that actually seems to scale decently well is wriggles-zerkers-pd-lw. Then just grab whatever else you feel you need.
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On February 08 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:
Sorry, I dont check this particular thread much, but since jungle TF was mentioned in the GD thread, I have appeared.
Current build: 8 aspeed 1 armpen red, armor yellows, mr/lvl blues, Armpen quints. 21-9-0. I THINK you can open boots, but I dont remember what I did the other day, and cloth 5 is safer if you are trying to do him for the first time.
order is w-e-w w>e>q, starting wolves-blue-wraiths- route.
The build I hit on that actually seems to scale decently well is wriggles-zerkers-pd-lw. Then just grab whatever else you feel you need.
Why do you take w(or e for that matter) over q? Wouldn't q help your clear speed the most? Especially at level 2: 3% atkspd/45 extra dmg vs 60 extra aoe damage.
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On February 08 2012 04:00 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:
Sorry, I dont check this particular thread much, but since jungle TF was mentioned in the GD thread, I have appeared.
Current build: 8 aspeed 1 armpen red, armor yellows, mr/lvl blues, Armpen quints. 21-9-0. I THINK you can open boots, but I dont remember what I did the other day, and cloth 5 is safer if you are trying to do him for the first time.
order is w-e-w w>e>q, starting wolves-blue-wraiths- route.
The build I hit on that actually seems to scale decently well is wriggles-zerkers-pd-lw. Then just grab whatever else you feel you need. Why do you take w(or e for that matter) over q? Wouldn't q help your clear speed the most? Especially at level 2: 3% atkspd/45 extra dmg vs 60 extra aoe damage.
Because you're building AD TF. His W scales off AD harder than it scales off AP. E increases attack speed. Q isn't going to help much because the AoE off red cards is big enough to hit the entire camp, it scales off AD, and W has a shorter CD.
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So how well does it actually work? I see Jungle TF on streams a lot, but usually in solo queue, so I'm not sure if it's a troll or something. I like the idea of a ranged AD jungle (that isn't Twitch), so I'm interested to try it out if it's viable.
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On February 08 2012 04:29 Requizen wrote:
So how well does it actually work? I see Jungle TF on streams a lot, but usually in solo queue, so I'm not sure if it's a troll or something. I like the idea of a ranged AD jungle (that isn't Twitch), so I'm interested to try it out if it's viable.
It has the T_D stamp of approval for almost viable.
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On February 08 2012 04:29 Requizen wrote:
So how well does it actually work? I see Jungle TF on streams a lot, but usually in solo queue, so I'm not sure if it's a troll or something. I like the idea of a ranged AD jungle (that isn't Twitch), so I'm interested to try it out if it's viable.
its alright, but i'd encourage you to try jungle Ezreal if you are looking for AD jungle, very surprisingly strong.
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On February 08 2012 05:12 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 04:29 Requizen wrote:
So how well does it actually work? I see Jungle TF on streams a lot, but usually in solo queue, so I'm not sure if it's a troll or something. I like the idea of a ranged AD jungle (that isn't Twitch), so I'm interested to try it out if it's viable. its alright, but i'd encourage you to try jungle Ezreal if you are looking for AD jungle, very surprisingly strong.
And how would you build that? You can post it into ezreal's thread if you want
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On February 08 2012 05:12 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 04:29 Requizen wrote:
So how well does it actually work? I see Jungle TF on streams a lot, but usually in solo queue, so I'm not sure if it's a troll or something. I like the idea of a ranged AD jungle (that isn't Twitch), so I'm interested to try it out if it's viable. its alright, but i'd encourage you to try jungle Ezreal if you are looking for AD jungle, very surprisingly strong.
I've tried it. It works pretty well (ult from jungle too funny), but TF has dat stun and dat ult to make his ganks much scarier, imo. You can basically never be sure of when you're about to get gold carded from an unwarded bush, or so I would think.
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On February 08 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:
Sorry, I dont check this particular thread much, but since jungle TF was mentioned in the GD thread, I have appeared.
Current build: 8 aspeed 1 armpen red, armor yellows, mr/lvl blues, Armpen quints. 21-9-0. I THINK you can open boots, but I dont remember what I did the other day, and cloth 5 is safer if you are trying to do him for the first time.
order is w-e-w w>e>q, starting wolves-blue-wraiths- route.
The build I hit on that actually seems to scale decently well is wriggles-zerkers-pd-lw. Then just grab whatever else you feel you need.
Why not AS quints + apen reds??? are numbers better for jungle tf the other way around?
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It's always better with arp quints and as red. Always
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AS/ArPen quints/reds have the same relative values so it doesn't matter which set you pick, just the values of attack speed and armor pen you end up with.
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WRONG THREAD, I'M A FUCKING MORON
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how good are lv2 ganks as Jungle TF?
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I see some dudes that I forget the names of (long days zzzz) going boots of swiftness on AP TF. I think it's usually something like boots 3pot ->dcap ->boots of swiftness
Maybe they like doing it because currently all you do is rush for hat, and by the time you have it people have enough MR that Sorc shoes aren't quite as good. But I thought it was established forever ago that they just plain suck because the MS is negligable and you could potentially have better stats in that slot (tenacity or mpen).
Thoughts?
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IMHO getting boots3 is pretty viable, though I wouldn't wait until after cap to get it (MS really important midgame) They're cheaper than sorcs and the move speed advantage can be pretty strong in lane. Also makes you slightly more mobile and gives you a "gap closer" because you can chase people down. It's also stronger late game because as you mentioned sorc boots get weaker and weaker while increased teamfight mobility gets more and more important.
It has never been established that boots3 plain suck, people use to get them all the time on ms dependent kiters like anivia and ashe. TF usually has a similar role in teamfights--stay in the back line and cc key targets while dealing as much damage as possible.
One high elo player that gets swifties on TF is FrozenBBq
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So I started to play AD TF today went 21/8/8 bought zerker greaves PD BT rageblade ionic spark and frozen mallet I got huge dps and great survivability what do you think of this build?
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REAL AD TFs rush naked black cleavers.
Nah, I play him exactly like every standard AD carry, but I've always toyed with both of the 2k recurve items (mostly wit's) and forgotten completely about rage, probably because the zeal + recurve satisfied me in regards to shooting fast.
Or maybe that's because I run AS quints and reds instead of arpen.
Ghost/Flash or Cleanse/Flash pretty much unless you're laning against something that somehow can't rip your face off whenever you step in to blue card a minion, 21/x/x
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The problem I've found with TF is you have to choice between being relavant mid game as AP or actually be able to do damage late game as AD. I prefer AD, but he loses match ups bottom lane because of his horrendous range and damage output early game. Late game, AD TF can be a monster, but it has to reach late game.
TF is my favorite champ, but hes so counterable I've found. He either needs AP ratio buffs, or another range buff IMO. I'd rather him go AD, but thats my preferential
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AP TF does insane damage lategame. You pretty much have one of the best dpses out of ap carries once you have deathcap + lichbane. You also have the lowest cd stun in the game with good range. The only problems are if
1. you lose lane badly (happens in a few bad matchups)
2. you get zerged super hard in teamfights (for example irelia kassadin nocturne all jump at you immediately)
but as long as these two conditions do not happen IMOIMO tf is super strong
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^
TF does fairly well but depends on positioning to survive. But if there is a poppy/Nocturne/Kass on the other team who even get slightly fed its game over for you.
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Oh My God TF is free this week so I try him... and for the life of me I can't draw yellow cards. Like I'll look at the icon at the bottom, see a gold one, and pick the wrong one Damn it.
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On May 12 2012 09:56 obesechicken13 wrote:Oh My God TF is free this week so I try him... and for the life of me I can't draw yellow cards. Like I'll look at the icon at the bottom, see a gold one, and pick the wrong one Damn it.
What ping are you? at 200 ping I have to select the card before the gold one to get it consistently.
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On May 12 2012 09:56 obesechicken13 wrote:Oh My God TF is free this week so I try him... and for the life of me I can't draw yellow cards. Like I'll look at the icon at the bottom, see a gold one, and pick the wrong one Damn it.
Could be due to your latency if your anything like me? (~250ms) In which case, try picking a yellow card by pressing it again when its showing blue, hence locking in the next card, yellow. It takes some getting used to to draw golds smoothly even if you have your lag worked out for it, might be worth practicing a little if you enjoyed him overall. You'll start doing better once you pay less attention to what cards are cycling and are better at keeping track and just picking the right one whilst fighting like normal.
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It's 100 ping but kinda inconsistent. I think I just have to get used to it.
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On April 05 2012 12:54 rapidash88 wrote:
The problem I've found with TF is you have to choice between being relavant mid game as AP or actually be able to do damage late game as AD. I prefer AD, but he loses match ups bottom lane because of his horrendous range and damage output early game. Late game, AD TF can be a monster, but it has to reach late game.
TF is my favorite champ, but hes so counterable I've found. He either needs AP ratio buffs, or another range buff IMO. I'd rather him go AD, but thats my preferential
wat
AP TF does sick damage late game with low CDs. You can't 1 shot people like Annie can but you still do very high sustained damage and obviously you have retarded mobility.
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And its a AoE on his card throw, that has a massive range. And a stun + card hit is not to be underestimated late game when you have decent AP + lichbane proc going on, especially on a squishy target. Definitely the ability to pick people fleeing with low health off at range (and catch them with his ult), and insane range AoE poke makes him relevant late game. Also, the vision provided by his ult can be pretty powerful late game too, to check for, and punish bad positioning.
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I love late game AP TF; I personally think he really is at his peak there (I believe he is strong landing, but gets a little weaker mid game before he gets Lich + Dcap).
Sure, he doesn't have an insane amount of up front burst (its still good with lich + PAC + gold card +Q) , but his ability to constantly CC targets (especially high priority ones) is awesome.
Furthermore, TF is amongst, if not the best, late game pusher. Since Q has absurd range and doesn't decrease with the amount of targets it hits, supports / ranged Ads cannot afford to eat more than one. So using Q for an easy wave clear -> yellow carding the tower does massive damage with the lich proc and is fairly safe, because anything trying to hit you will eat a yellowcard.
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Been playing AP TF the past few days...pretty funny to yellow card, Q, run scared to tower, yellow card under tower, Q, ???, acquire kill.
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I've been playing a bit of TF again lately and messing with build paths.
In a GD thread a while back I posted numbers and found that dcap first gave the highest damage spike but afterwards I wasn't sure what was a good idea to buy. Lichbane is the standard go-to item but looking at straight up numbers, DFG does far more initial burst (As in ~3x the base damage of lichbane in magic damage but on a 1 min cd rather than a 2 second cd). It takes a huge amount of AP against a low HP target before lichbane can override dfg in frontloaded damage.
I've been cutting a doran's ring from the normal build progression and going dorans -> kages -> dcap -> DFG -> LB -> voidstaff
I like dfg first, I honestly do, it generally gives higher damage on a single target than even a dcap does and they're pretty close to even in sustained damage due to the cdr on dfg but there's an awkward timing sometimes between when you get kages, a blasting rod/dfg and when you get another AP item where you don't quite 1 shot creeps in some cases. This doesn't happen when you go dcap first which is why I like dcap more.
tl;dr: DFG is very nice, start building one
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After playing some AP TF and being behind almost all game long (fucking eve towerdivin') I sometimes felt like I did very little damage (TF is not an extremely burty champ tbh). I thought that I could maybe buy a Deathfire Grasp to solve this issue. Have you guys tried it ? The CDR seems also useful.
The only thing I wonder then I when would I buy it. Kage should be quite early, and then finish the item after Deathcap ? Before or after Lichbane ?...
Edit: real the post right above speaks about it, I thought it was jungle tf. Bleh.
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Yes, Kages -> Sheen -> DFG -> Lichbane/Dcap is a solid build
Between DFG/Sheen/Lichbane proce your W and Q it is a lot of damage
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The thing is, lichbane+dcap gives you much sustained damage and enough clearing power; while dfg+lichbane (unless you get really fed early) doesn't let you oneshot waves with red+wildcards. Instantly clearing waves is a big part of TF; because it allows you to only be within vision for a few moments, forcing pressure everywhere on the map (due to the threat of your ult).
Dcap also makes your poke way stronger the dfg does; and TF's poke is (one of) the best pokes in the game so you really should try to abuse it.
If you want to 100-0 people with dfg, there are champions much better suited for that role.
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im pretty sure dfg lichbane with 21 offense lets you 1 shot ranged minions with your q only (and clear melee with red + autos as needed).
dfg lichbane is the current popular way of building TF, it gives you much more splitpushing ability with stronger ability to 1v1, shorter CDs, and faster tower taking than say dcap -> lichbane parts / dfg (although the instant boost in waveclearing is nice with deathcap, its slightly overrated).
both are good builds and have their perks, but try them all before you make your final judgment. i for one really like a fast zhonyas when my development is already secure and i am the main target for the enemy team, it really messes up their teamfighting :D
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TF is just a great hero for getting used to flexibility in different items in every game. Understanding how the game flows and switching up your build vs their champion/item/rune set up is the real fun part of playing tf.
Sidenote: dfg is stupidly cost efficient nerf pls
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By the numbers, you always want a dcap or other major AP item before your lichbane (abyssal used to be really good, I don't like it quite as much anymore though.) Getting a sheen early is fine but you need some serious AP before the 2210 investment to get a lichbane from the sheen really pays off. I like dfg because considering the fact that you're higher level than bottom lane, the cdr allows you to consistently burst a single person down with your initial combo and most likely get the second person as well since your gold card comes up much quicker. The limiting factor I feel in most ganks is the fact that TF really needs cdr to get a second Q/W off before the people get under tower top lane and a second wildcards to finish off people in the bottom lane.
I love zhonyas btw, my favourite TF play was by misaya on TF where he ports into a 5 man team, instant zhonyas and baits a LOT of cooldowns and flashes out instantly, letting his team clean up. I personally rarely build it since it's a teamfight tool rather than a gank/pushing tool. It's definitely a good item to get but I'm not sure if putting it ahead of a dcap/lichbane/dfg/void is warranted. It feels much more like a luxury item to me.
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Teach me how to fight as TF. I feel like I just kind of Gold/Red -> Q and then run like hell until they're back up. AmIdoinitrite?
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On October 27 2012 15:44 Requizen wrote:
Teach me how to fight as TF. I feel like I just kind of Gold/Red -> Q and then run like hell until they're back up. AmIdoinitrite?
throw cards and poke poke poke, kite like a god and spam q and w on cooldown.
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I think it's also important to lock gold card at the appropriate time (such as when your lane opponent is trying to CS).
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On October 27 2012 17:02 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 15:44 Requizen wrote:
Teach me how to fight as TF. I feel like I just kind of Gold/Red -> Q and then run like hell until they're back up. AmIdoinitrite? throw cards and poke poke poke, kite like a god and spam q and w on cooldown.
or you can play like boss.
get level 6, locate a careless enemy near a bush, ping to your teammates to go there. Pick yellow, teleport. Then autoattack, q, autoattack, ignite. go to your lane.
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Not sure how to build TF with the new items. Should I just stick to ye old DC/LB/Void?
I built Liandry's last night. You get double damage easy because of the stun/slow on W, but only Q procs the burn, and since it's AoE it only works for half, so I don't think it's as good on him as other people (Anivia, Vlad, etc).
Maybe DFG as core? DFG -> W -> Q -> auto until E proc.
Also, Spellsword is a pretty good mastery for him.
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I've been going DFG -> sorcs -> needlessly large/furor boots enchant -> dcap.
DFG comes in near the end of laning so you get of a couple of extreme damage ganks and the furor enchant essentially gives you most of the ms that lichbane lost. Gold them+cards an chase them down or gold -> kite like a boss. As long as you're pulling golds/reds, it's extremely hard to catch you without hard cc.
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On January 25 2013 09:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Originally, I was sticking to AD TF pretty hard, not accepting that AP TF was any good. It seems like it largely wastes Stacked Deck and Pick a Card, but now that I've fiddled with it, I've found this build to work incredibly well. It's not a normal AP build, but I've gotten 11/0, 12/2, 12/1 on my last three victories, and 6/4, 6/4, 3/0 in my last three defeats (and the several games I've played before these that no longer show up in my match history are similar) and I top both teams in CS almost every game. I'm level 28 playing drafts.
Summoner Spells
Ghost
Flash
Runes
Marks of Greater Magic Pen
Seals, Glyphs, Quints of Greater AP
Masteries
22/0/9
Items, In This Order
Doran's Ring x2
Sorcerer's Treads (Homeguard)
Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Nashor's Tooth
Death Cap
Lichbane
Malady
Reasoning:
Summoner Spells
I know that everyone and their mother is incredibly stuck on Flash/Ignite, but I very, very rarely run into a situation where Ignite makes a difference, whereas the extra mobility given by Ghost is incredibly useful. TF is one of the least mobile champions in the game (very slow movement speed, teleport is on a very long cooldown), so mobility REALLY helps his survivability. It also helps significantly when trying to catch fleeing opponents. You may say that you should just get Ignite in that scenario, but a Ghost + Yellow Card + Wild Cards does far more damage than having an Ignite tick away as he runs off. Plus, it also lets you catch and stun half or full-health opponents for your entire team to gank.
Runes
TF is never going to be "tanky" in any sense, as he is one of the squishiest and least mobile characters in the game. Thus, I just go for straight magic pen/AP to maximize my damage output.
Masteries
Honestly, I'm only level 28, and haven't put much thought/study into masteries, so I picked the things that seemed most useful. I picked every mastery that could maximize my damage output as well as picking the two that improve Ghost/Flash, the one that gives increased movement speed out of combat, the one that reduces Summoner spell CD, and Improved Recall (this talent has saved me so many times; .5 seconds makes a big difference).
Items
Dorans Ring x2: As you will be farming mid solo, and assuming you play well, buying a second ring shouldn't hurt your pocketbook too much. Two rings gives a good amount of mana regen (although TF doesn't have huge mana issues due to Blue cards) as well as early AP and health, giving you an edge in early champion fights as well as early survivability.
Boots: Sorcerer's Treads are the no-brainer answer. Homeguard is just awesome because it severely reduced downtime and gets you back into lane very quickly. I am really torn between Homeguard and Alacrity (as the movement speed can really help TF), but I've recognized far more scenarios where Homeguard has made an active difference as compared to Alacrity.
Rylai's: Alright, this is where I start to get weird. My first major item is Rylai's. Why? Three reasons. One, the AP boost is significant. 80 AP is obviously quite good. Two, the health is very, very useful. 500 health is a large chunk, and, as TF is one of the squishiest and least mobile champions, this health makes a difference, especially early-mid game. Finally, and most importantly, the slow. By using this item, every time you hit with any of your abilities (including Blue cards and Stacked Deck), you slow your opponent (if it's a Blue card or Stacked Deck, just as much as a Red card does!). This is incredibly valuable when chasing or in team fights and adds quite a bit of utility to your arsenal. Furthermore, it lets you keep max damage output while chasing opponents; Instead of needing to stun with a Yellow card and not doing a ton of damage, you can do high damage with a Blue card and still slow them.
Nashor's Tooth: Nashor's Tooth is incredibly useful, giving mp/5 (although I don't worry about mana much on TF), CD reduction (amazing for letting you poke more as well as using your ultimate far more often), it gives you a respectable 60 AP, and it increases your attack speed quite a bit. This last part is, as I feel, the most important part, because it puts your Stacked Deck to true use. Yes, if you just go Deathcap -> Lichbane (like normal), your Stacked Deck still does a lot of damage, but you can't rely on it with TF's incredibly slow base attack speed. Increasing his attack speed lets you reliably damage your opponent with Stacked Deck, meaning you are fully utilizing all of your spells. The CDR is nothing to scoff at, either. This, along with the CDR passive from Stacked Deck, reduces the CD on Wild Cards and Pick a Card substantially, which is incredibly important to your poking potential.
Deathcap: Obvious choice for any AP carry. However, I wait for it until third. Why? Because, the Deathcap gives a lot of AP. A LOT. However, it doesn't give ANYTHING else. The utility (survivability, slow) of the Scepter and the damage you get from being able to reliably use Stacked Deck (Nashor's) are far more valuable early and early-mid game. Deathcap's passive really ups your AP once you get into the late-mid game time frame, where you actually have a lot more AP to get a bonus from.
Lichbane: Another staple choice for TF, but fourth. Again, I find that this item's use is limited by TF's attack speed. When TF's attack speed is slow, his wind-up time for his auto-attack is also slow, and ever split second matters in team fights, especially later game. Having the attack speed to back this bad-boy up makes it that much more potent. Also, I don't know if this procs before or after (or both?!) you Pick a Card, or if it procs both when you use Destiny and when you use Gate, but if it did, that would be absolutely sick.
Malady: I was having some trouble picking my last item. I knew I needed some more AP (of course), but I also knew that, more importantly, I needed some MR pen options. However, I've been slightly skeptical of the Void Staff, as I've been in several very late-game scenarios as Karthus (my #2) where he has had Sorcerer's Treads/Void Staff and it simply hasn't cut it. Ultimately, I settled on Malady. The reasoning; while Malady's AP bonus is very low, it gives your auto-attacks quite the punch by adding ~70-some-odd Magic Damage to them every hit. Furthermore, the increased attack speed will have you attacking just as fast as any ADC. Finally, because of the fast attack speed, the MR pen will stack very quickly, and, if I've done my math correctly, Sorcerer's Treads + Full Malady Stacks is more MR pen than Sorcerer's Treads + Void Staff in most situations (unless your target has an insane amount of MR, which is almost never). An argument could be made, saying that Malady only focuses your MR pen on one target. However, TF isn't made like Karthus, Veigar, or Syndra; his AP damage is very focused, with Pick a Card usually only hitting one target (Red card's radius is quite narrow, and the damage is limited anyway), and Wild Cards' hit box is very small with the two side cards flying out at a very wide angle, meaning you probably will only hit one target (unless they're in a line).
Concluding Thoughts
I find TF to be a very difficult champion to do very well as. Whenever I watch people play him, he's always pretty solid, but never really great, and I think it's because of two reasons. 1) His damage is rather mediocre (Karthus, Veigar, Syndra, etc. can severely out-damage him in a short time period) and 2) people really waste the potential of Stacked Deck by forgoing attack speed. I think more players need to look at TF as a utility AP carry (5500 radius teleport, single target stun, AoE slow, high sustain with Blue card mana regen, very long poke with Wild Cards) with a high overall damage potential instead of trying to just maximize the damage from Wild Cards and Pick a Card. Also, throughout my playing career with TF, it has occurred to me that TF is very much gear-dependent; while he can makes some ganks early game, they rely on prolonged pokes with Wild Cards/Pick a Card. His early-game damage potential and survivability is quite low for an AP carry, and he really only starts to outshine others once he can get his second full item past boots. Because of this, his viability in Dominion seems limited (you will rarely get more than two items in a Dominion game and will never complete your build) and he is also rather limited in Twisted Treeline (lack of ability to consistently farm CS at high numbers due to more frequent team fights and a higher risk of ganking). Also, as to TF"s playstyle, he is, of course, a low-survivability poke AP carry, and as such, you have to be really careful about when you engage, and you should never step up into the fight unless your team is at a very clear advantage; if you are focused at all, you are very likely to drop. Also, I find AD TF to be almost completely non-viable now (as opposed to my earlier thoughts), as he has very little survivability or escape capability (his stuns/slows rely on luck and time, as you must not only hit the button once, but must wait for it to flip to the Yellow card and then hit the button again) and, late game, Wild Cards' damage will be almost insignificant without any AP. His farming capability is also much weaker than an AP TF's.
I'd love to hear other's well-thought out critiques of my ideas, as I haven't really run this by anyone yet.
Please for the love of god, no flat AP yellow/blues. Run scaling AP blues (or situationally, flat MR blues), and scaling HP or flat / scaling mana regen or flat armor yellows.
TF also desperately need MS quints.
I only browsed over the rest, but if you build Rylai's as your first item you are probably not going to do very well. You absolutely need to go NLR + Sheen + Sorc Boots as your core, then build to Lich Bane, dcap/zhonya, and go from there.
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On January 25 2013 09:19 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 09:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Originally, I was sticking to AD TF pretty hard, not accepting that AP TF was any good. It seems like it largely wastes Stacked Deck and Pick a Card, but now that I've fiddled with it, I've found this build to work incredibly well. It's not a normal AP build, but I've gotten 11/0, 12/2, 12/1 on my last three victories, and 6/4, 6/4, 3/0 in my last three defeats (and the several games I've played before these that no longer show up in my match history are similar) and I top both teams in CS almost every game. I'm level 28 playing drafts.
Summoner Spells
Ghost
Flash
Runes
Marks of Greater Magic Pen
Seals, Glyphs, Quints of Greater AP
Masteries
22/0/9
Items, In This Order
Doran's Ring x2
Sorcerer's Treads (Homeguard)
Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Nashor's Tooth
Death Cap
Lichbane
Malady
Reasoning:
Summoner Spells
I know that everyone and their mother is incredibly stuck on Flash/Ignite, but I very, very rarely run into a situation where Ignite makes a difference, whereas the extra mobility given by Ghost is incredibly useful. TF is one of the least mobile champions in the game (very slow movement speed, teleport is on a very long cooldown), so mobility REALLY helps his survivability. It also helps significantly when trying to catch fleeing opponents. You may say that you should just get Ignite in that scenario, but a Ghost + Yellow Card + Wild Cards does far more damage than having an Ignite tick away as he runs off. Plus, it also lets you catch and stun half or full-health opponents for your entire team to gank.
Runes
TF is never going to be "tanky" in any sense, as he is one of the squishiest and least mobile characters in the game. Thus, I just go for straight magic pen/AP to maximize my damage output.
Masteries
Honestly, I'm only level 28, and haven't put much thought/study into masteries, so I picked the things that seemed most useful. I picked every mastery that could maximize my damage output as well as picking the two that improve Ghost/Flash, the one that gives increased movement speed out of combat, the one that reduces Summoner spell CD, and Improved Recall (this talent has saved me so many times; .5 seconds makes a big difference).
Items
Dorans Ring x2: As you will be farming mid solo, and assuming you play well, buying a second ring shouldn't hurt your pocketbook too much. Two rings gives a good amount of mana regen (although TF doesn't have huge mana issues due to Blue cards) as well as early AP and health, giving you an edge in early champion fights as well as early survivability.
Boots: Sorcerer's Treads are the no-brainer answer. Homeguard is just awesome because it severely reduced downtime and gets you back into lane very quickly. I am really torn between Homeguard and Alacrity (as the movement speed can really help TF), but I've recognized far more scenarios where Homeguard has made an active difference as compared to Alacrity.
Rylai's: Alright, this is where I start to get weird. My first major item is Rylai's. Why? Three reasons. One, the AP boost is significant. 80 AP is obviously quite good. Two, the health is very, very useful. 500 health is a large chunk, and, as TF is one of the squishiest and least mobile champions, this health makes a difference, especially early-mid game. Finally, and most importantly, the slow. By using this item, every time you hit with any of your abilities (including Blue cards and Stacked Deck), you slow your opponent (if it's a Blue card or Stacked Deck, just as much as a Red card does!). This is incredibly valuable when chasing or in team fights and adds quite a bit of utility to your arsenal. Furthermore, it lets you keep max damage output while chasing opponents; Instead of needing to stun with a Yellow card and not doing a ton of damage, you can do high damage with a Blue card and still slow them.
Nashor's Tooth: Nashor's Tooth is incredibly useful, giving mp/5 (although I don't worry about mana much on TF), CD reduction (amazing for letting you poke more as well as using your ultimate far more often), it gives you a respectable 60 AP, and it increases your attack speed quite a bit. This last part is, as I feel, the most important part, because it puts your Stacked Deck to true use. Yes, if you just go Deathcap -> Lichbane (like normal), your Stacked Deck still does a lot of damage, but you can't rely on it with TF's incredibly slow base attack speed. Increasing his attack speed lets you reliably damage your opponent with Stacked Deck, meaning you are fully utilizing all of your spells. The CDR is nothing to scoff at, either. This, along with the CDR passive from Stacked Deck, reduces the CD on Wild Cards and Pick a Card substantially, which is incredibly important to your poking potential.
Deathcap: Obvious choice for any AP carry. However, I wait for it until third. Why? Because, the Deathcap gives a lot of AP. A LOT. However, it doesn't give ANYTHING else. The utility (survivability, slow) of the Scepter and the damage you get from being able to reliably use Stacked Deck (Nashor's) are far more valuable early and early-mid game. Deathcap's passive really ups your AP once you get into the late-mid game time frame, where you actually have a lot more AP to get a bonus from.
Lichbane: Another staple choice for TF, but fourth. Again, I find that this item's use is limited by TF's attack speed. When TF's attack speed is slow, his wind-up time for his auto-attack is also slow, and ever split second matters in team fights, especially later game. Having the attack speed to back this bad-boy up makes it that much more potent. Also, I don't know if this procs before or after (or both?!) you Pick a Card, or if it procs both when you use Destiny and when you use Gate, but if it did, that would be absolutely sick.
Malady: I was having some trouble picking my last item. I knew I needed some more AP (of course), but I also knew that, more importantly, I needed some MR pen options. However, I've been slightly skeptical of the Void Staff, as I've been in several very late-game scenarios as Karthus (my #2) where he has had Sorcerer's Treads/Void Staff and it simply hasn't cut it. Ultimately, I settled on Malady. The reasoning; while Malady's AP bonus is very low, it gives your auto-attacks quite the punch by adding ~70-some-odd Magic Damage to them every hit. Furthermore, the increased attack speed will have you attacking just as fast as any ADC. Finally, because of the fast attack speed, the MR pen will stack very quickly, and, if I've done my math correctly, Sorcerer's Treads + Full Malady Stacks is more MR pen than Sorcerer's Treads + Void Staff in most situations (unless your target has an insane amount of MR, which is almost never). An argument could be made, saying that Malady only focuses your MR pen on one target. However, TF isn't made like Karthus, Veigar, or Syndra; his AP damage is very focused, with Pick a Card usually only hitting one target (Red card's radius is quite narrow, and the damage is limited anyway), and Wild Cards' hit box is very small with the two side cards flying out at a very wide angle, meaning you probably will only hit one target (unless they're in a line).
Concluding Thoughts
I find TF to be a very difficult champion to do very well as. Whenever I watch people play him, he's always pretty solid, but never really great, and I think it's because of two reasons. 1) His damage is rather mediocre (Karthus, Veigar, Syndra, etc. can severely out-damage him in a short time period) and 2) people really waste the potential of Stacked Deck by forgoing attack speed. I think more players need to look at TF as a utility AP carry (5500 radius teleport, single target stun, AoE slow, high sustain with Blue card mana regen, very long poke with Wild Cards) with a high overall damage potential instead of trying to just maximize the damage from Wild Cards and Pick a Card. Also, throughout my playing career with TF, it has occurred to me that TF is very much gear-dependent; while he can makes some ganks early game, they rely on prolonged pokes with Wild Cards/Pick a Card. His early-game damage potential and survivability is quite low for an AP carry, and he really only starts to outshine others once he can get his second full item past boots. Because of this, his viability in Dominion seems limited (you will rarely get more than two items in a Dominion game and will never complete your build) and he is also rather limited in Twisted Treeline (lack of ability to consistently farm CS at high numbers due to more frequent team fights and a higher risk of ganking). Also, as to TF"s playstyle, he is, of course, a low-survivability poke AP carry, and as such, you have to be really careful about when you engage, and you should never step up into the fight unless your team is at a very clear advantage; if you are focused at all, you are very likely to drop. Also, I find AD TF to be almost completely non-viable now (as opposed to my earlier thoughts), as he has very little survivability or escape capability (his stuns/slows rely on luck and time, as you must not only hit the button once, but must wait for it to flip to the Yellow card and then hit the button again) and, late game, Wild Cards' damage will be almost insignificant without any AP. His farming capability is also much weaker than an AP TF's.
I'd love to hear other's well-thought out critiques of my ideas, as I haven't really run this by anyone yet. Please for the love of god, no flat AP yellow/blues. Run scaling AP blues (or situationally, flat MR blues), and scaling HP or flat / scaling mana regen or flat armor yellows. TF also desperately need MS quints. I only browsed over the rest, but if you build Rylai's as your first item you are probably not going to do very well. You absolutely need to go NLR + Sheen + Sorc Boots as your core, then build to Lich Bane, dcap/zhonya, and go from there.
...Could you please read more into it and give me actual explanations? Because I pretty specifically explained why my build serves me so well, and my game history shows it. Also, why scaling runes? I find that runes make much more of a difference early game (where you get more AP with flat glyphs) as opposed to late game (where you'll end up with something like 19-20 more AP with scaling glyphs end-game as opposed to flat glyphs)
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Yeah, TF's strengths are his global presence, short cooldown stun, and long range poke/waveclear. His autoattack range is pretty short and he's super squishy with no escapes, so if you are going to make the most use of nashors tooth and malady you're going to die really fast. Get AP to clear waves and go gank.
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On January 25 2013 09:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 09:19 Sufficiency wrote:On January 25 2013 09:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Originally, I was sticking to AD TF pretty hard, not accepting that AP TF was any good. It seems like it largely wastes Stacked Deck and Pick a Card, but now that I've fiddled with it, I've found this build to work incredibly well. It's not a normal AP build, but I've gotten 11/0, 12/2, 12/1 on my last three victories, and 6/4, 6/4, 3/0 in my last three defeats (and the several games I've played before these that no longer show up in my match history are similar) and I top both teams in CS almost every game. I'm level 28 playing drafts.
Summoner Spells
Ghost
Flash
Runes
Marks of Greater Magic Pen
Seals, Glyphs, Quints of Greater AP
Masteries
22/0/9
Items, In This Order
Doran's Ring x2
Sorcerer's Treads (Homeguard)
Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Nashor's Tooth
Death Cap
Lichbane
Malady
Reasoning:
Summoner Spells
I know that everyone and their mother is incredibly stuck on Flash/Ignite, but I very, very rarely run into a situation where Ignite makes a difference, whereas the extra mobility given by Ghost is incredibly useful. TF is one of the least mobile champions in the game (very slow movement speed, teleport is on a very long cooldown), so mobility REALLY helps his survivability. It also helps significantly when trying to catch fleeing opponents. You may say that you should just get Ignite in that scenario, but a Ghost + Yellow Card + Wild Cards does far more damage than having an Ignite tick away as he runs off. Plus, it also lets you catch and stun half or full-health opponents for your entire team to gank.
Runes
TF is never going to be "tanky" in any sense, as he is one of the squishiest and least mobile characters in the game. Thus, I just go for straight magic pen/AP to maximize my damage output.
Masteries
Honestly, I'm only level 28, and haven't put much thought/study into masteries, so I picked the things that seemed most useful. I picked every mastery that could maximize my damage output as well as picking the two that improve Ghost/Flash, the one that gives increased movement speed out of combat, the one that reduces Summoner spell CD, and Improved Recall (this talent has saved me so many times; .5 seconds makes a big difference).
Items
Dorans Ring x2: As you will be farming mid solo, and assuming you play well, buying a second ring shouldn't hurt your pocketbook too much. Two rings gives a good amount of mana regen (although TF doesn't have huge mana issues due to Blue cards) as well as early AP and health, giving you an edge in early champion fights as well as early survivability.
Boots: Sorcerer's Treads are the no-brainer answer. Homeguard is just awesome because it severely reduced downtime and gets you back into lane very quickly. I am really torn between Homeguard and Alacrity (as the movement speed can really help TF), but I've recognized far more scenarios where Homeguard has made an active difference as compared to Alacrity.
Rylai's: Alright, this is where I start to get weird. My first major item is Rylai's. Why? Three reasons. One, the AP boost is significant. 80 AP is obviously quite good. Two, the health is very, very useful. 500 health is a large chunk, and, as TF is one of the squishiest and least mobile champions, this health makes a difference, especially early-mid game. Finally, and most importantly, the slow. By using this item, every time you hit with any of your abilities (including Blue cards and Stacked Deck), you slow your opponent (if it's a Blue card or Stacked Deck, just as much as a Red card does!). This is incredibly valuable when chasing or in team fights and adds quite a bit of utility to your arsenal. Furthermore, it lets you keep max damage output while chasing opponents; Instead of needing to stun with a Yellow card and not doing a ton of damage, you can do high damage with a Blue card and still slow them.
Nashor's Tooth: Nashor's Tooth is incredibly useful, giving mp/5 (although I don't worry about mana much on TF), CD reduction (amazing for letting you poke more as well as using your ultimate far more often), it gives you a respectable 60 AP, and it increases your attack speed quite a bit. This last part is, as I feel, the most important part, because it puts your Stacked Deck to true use. Yes, if you just go Deathcap -> Lichbane (like normal), your Stacked Deck still does a lot of damage, but you can't rely on it with TF's incredibly slow base attack speed. Increasing his attack speed lets you reliably damage your opponent with Stacked Deck, meaning you are fully utilizing all of your spells. The CDR is nothing to scoff at, either. This, along with the CDR passive from Stacked Deck, reduces the CD on Wild Cards and Pick a Card substantially, which is incredibly important to your poking potential.
Deathcap: Obvious choice for any AP carry. However, I wait for it until third. Why? Because, the Deathcap gives a lot of AP. A LOT. However, it doesn't give ANYTHING else. The utility (survivability, slow) of the Scepter and the damage you get from being able to reliably use Stacked Deck (Nashor's) are far more valuable early and early-mid game. Deathcap's passive really ups your AP once you get into the late-mid game time frame, where you actually have a lot more AP to get a bonus from.
Lichbane: Another staple choice for TF, but fourth. Again, I find that this item's use is limited by TF's attack speed. When TF's attack speed is slow, his wind-up time for his auto-attack is also slow, and ever split second matters in team fights, especially later game. Having the attack speed to back this bad-boy up makes it that much more potent. Also, I don't know if this procs before or after (or both?!) you Pick a Card, or if it procs both when you use Destiny and when you use Gate, but if it did, that would be absolutely sick.
Malady: I was having some trouble picking my last item. I knew I needed some more AP (of course), but I also knew that, more importantly, I needed some MR pen options. However, I've been slightly skeptical of the Void Staff, as I've been in several very late-game scenarios as Karthus (my #2) where he has had Sorcerer's Treads/Void Staff and it simply hasn't cut it. Ultimately, I settled on Malady. The reasoning; while Malady's AP bonus is very low, it gives your auto-attacks quite the punch by adding ~70-some-odd Magic Damage to them every hit. Furthermore, the increased attack speed will have you attacking just as fast as any ADC. Finally, because of the fast attack speed, the MR pen will stack very quickly, and, if I've done my math correctly, Sorcerer's Treads + Full Malady Stacks is more MR pen than Sorcerer's Treads + Void Staff in most situations (unless your target has an insane amount of MR, which is almost never). An argument could be made, saying that Malady only focuses your MR pen on one target. However, TF isn't made like Karthus, Veigar, or Syndra; his AP damage is very focused, with Pick a Card usually only hitting one target (Red card's radius is quite narrow, and the damage is limited anyway), and Wild Cards' hit box is very small with the two side cards flying out at a very wide angle, meaning you probably will only hit one target (unless they're in a line).
Concluding Thoughts
I find TF to be a very difficult champion to do very well as. Whenever I watch people play him, he's always pretty solid, but never really great, and I think it's because of two reasons. 1) His damage is rather mediocre (Karthus, Veigar, Syndra, etc. can severely out-damage him in a short time period) and 2) people really waste the potential of Stacked Deck by forgoing attack speed. I think more players need to look at TF as a utility AP carry (5500 radius teleport, single target stun, AoE slow, high sustain with Blue card mana regen, very long poke with Wild Cards) with a high overall damage potential instead of trying to just maximize the damage from Wild Cards and Pick a Card. Also, throughout my playing career with TF, it has occurred to me that TF is very much gear-dependent; while he can makes some ganks early game, they rely on prolonged pokes with Wild Cards/Pick a Card. His early-game damage potential and survivability is quite low for an AP carry, and he really only starts to outshine others once he can get his second full item past boots. Because of this, his viability in Dominion seems limited (you will rarely get more than two items in a Dominion game and will never complete your build) and he is also rather limited in Twisted Treeline (lack of ability to consistently farm CS at high numbers due to more frequent team fights and a higher risk of ganking). Also, as to TF"s playstyle, he is, of course, a low-survivability poke AP carry, and as such, you have to be really careful about when you engage, and you should never step up into the fight unless your team is at a very clear advantage; if you are focused at all, you are very likely to drop. Also, I find AD TF to be almost completely non-viable now (as opposed to my earlier thoughts), as he has very little survivability or escape capability (his stuns/slows rely on luck and time, as you must not only hit the button once, but must wait for it to flip to the Yellow card and then hit the button again) and, late game, Wild Cards' damage will be almost insignificant without any AP. His farming capability is also much weaker than an AP TF's.
I'd love to hear other's well-thought out critiques of my ideas, as I haven't really run this by anyone yet. Please for the love of god, no flat AP yellow/blues. Run scaling AP blues (or situationally, flat MR blues), and scaling HP or flat / scaling mana regen or flat armor yellows. TF also desperately need MS quints. I only browsed over the rest, but if you build Rylai's as your first item you are probably not going to do very well. You absolutely need to go NLR + Sheen + Sorc Boots as your core, then build to Lich Bane, dcap/zhonya, and go from there. ...Could you please read more into it and give me actual explanations? Because I pretty specifically explained why my build serves me so well, and my game history shows it.
Because the slow is not worth it. Your Q only procs 15% slow, your red card already has a slow, and if for some reason you drew a blue card instead of red/yellow, you simply misplayed.
TF needs to itemize as much AP as possible so he can stay ahead the damage curve and be able to oneshot the backline. He also needs at least a little bit more damage (Sheen/Lich Bane) so he can pull off ganks more easily.
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On January 25 2013 09:30 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 09:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:On January 25 2013 09:19 Sufficiency wrote:On January 25 2013 09:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Originally, I was sticking to AD TF pretty hard, not accepting that AP TF was any good. It seems like it largely wastes Stacked Deck and Pick a Card, but now that I've fiddled with it, I've found this build to work incredibly well. It's not a normal AP build, but I've gotten 11/0, 12/2, 12/1 on my last three victories, and 6/4, 6/4, 3/0 in my last three defeats (and the several games I've played before these that no longer show up in my match history are similar) and I top both teams in CS almost every game. I'm level 28 playing drafts.
Summoner Spells
Ghost
Flash
Runes
Marks of Greater Magic Pen
Seals, Glyphs, Quints of Greater AP
Masteries
22/0/9
Items, In This Order
Doran's Ring x2
Sorcerer's Treads (Homeguard)
Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Nashor's Tooth
Death Cap
Lichbane
Malady
Reasoning:
Summoner Spells
I know that everyone and their mother is incredibly stuck on Flash/Ignite, but I very, very rarely run into a situation where Ignite makes a difference, whereas the extra mobility given by Ghost is incredibly useful. TF is one of the least mobile champions in the game (very slow movement speed, teleport is on a very long cooldown), so mobility REALLY helps his survivability. It also helps significantly when trying to catch fleeing opponents. You may say that you should just get Ignite in that scenario, but a Ghost + Yellow Card + Wild Cards does far more damage than having an Ignite tick away as he runs off. Plus, it also lets you catch and stun half or full-health opponents for your entire team to gank.
Runes
TF is never going to be "tanky" in any sense, as he is one of the squishiest and least mobile characters in the game. Thus, I just go for straight magic pen/AP to maximize my damage output.
Masteries
Honestly, I'm only level 28, and haven't put much thought/study into masteries, so I picked the things that seemed most useful. I picked every mastery that could maximize my damage output as well as picking the two that improve Ghost/Flash, the one that gives increased movement speed out of combat, the one that reduces Summoner spell CD, and Improved Recall (this talent has saved me so many times; .5 seconds makes a big difference).
Items
Dorans Ring x2: As you will be farming mid solo, and assuming you play well, buying a second ring shouldn't hurt your pocketbook too much. Two rings gives a good amount of mana regen (although TF doesn't have huge mana issues due to Blue cards) as well as early AP and health, giving you an edge in early champion fights as well as early survivability.
Boots: Sorcerer's Treads are the no-brainer answer. Homeguard is just awesome because it severely reduced downtime and gets you back into lane very quickly. I am really torn between Homeguard and Alacrity (as the movement speed can really help TF), but I've recognized far more scenarios where Homeguard has made an active difference as compared to Alacrity.
Rylai's: Alright, this is where I start to get weird. My first major item is Rylai's. Why? Three reasons. One, the AP boost is significant. 80 AP is obviously quite good. Two, the health is very, very useful. 500 health is a large chunk, and, as TF is one of the squishiest and least mobile champions, this health makes a difference, especially early-mid game. Finally, and most importantly, the slow. By using this item, every time you hit with any of your abilities (including Blue cards and Stacked Deck), you slow your opponent (if it's a Blue card or Stacked Deck, just as much as a Red card does!). This is incredibly valuable when chasing or in team fights and adds quite a bit of utility to your arsenal. Furthermore, it lets you keep max damage output while chasing opponents; Instead of needing to stun with a Yellow card and not doing a ton of damage, you can do high damage with a Blue card and still slow them.
Nashor's Tooth: Nashor's Tooth is incredibly useful, giving mp/5 (although I don't worry about mana much on TF), CD reduction (amazing for letting you poke more as well as using your ultimate far more often), it gives you a respectable 60 AP, and it increases your attack speed quite a bit. This last part is, as I feel, the most important part, because it puts your Stacked Deck to true use. Yes, if you just go Deathcap -> Lichbane (like normal), your Stacked Deck still does a lot of damage, but you can't rely on it with TF's incredibly slow base attack speed. Increasing his attack speed lets you reliably damage your opponent with Stacked Deck, meaning you are fully utilizing all of your spells. The CDR is nothing to scoff at, either. This, along with the CDR passive from Stacked Deck, reduces the CD on Wild Cards and Pick a Card substantially, which is incredibly important to your poking potential.
Deathcap: Obvious choice for any AP carry. However, I wait for it until third. Why? Because, the Deathcap gives a lot of AP. A LOT. However, it doesn't give ANYTHING else. The utility (survivability, slow) of the Scepter and the damage you get from being able to reliably use Stacked Deck (Nashor's) are far more valuable early and early-mid game. Deathcap's passive really ups your AP once you get into the late-mid game time frame, where you actually have a lot more AP to get a bonus from.
Lichbane: Another staple choice for TF, but fourth. Again, I find that this item's use is limited by TF's attack speed. When TF's attack speed is slow, his wind-up time for his auto-attack is also slow, and ever split second matters in team fights, especially later game. Having the attack speed to back this bad-boy up makes it that much more potent. Also, I don't know if this procs before or after (or both?!) you Pick a Card, or if it procs both when you use Destiny and when you use Gate, but if it did, that would be absolutely sick.
Malady: I was having some trouble picking my last item. I knew I needed some more AP (of course), but I also knew that, more importantly, I needed some MR pen options. However, I've been slightly skeptical of the Void Staff, as I've been in several very late-game scenarios as Karthus (my #2) where he has had Sorcerer's Treads/Void Staff and it simply hasn't cut it. Ultimately, I settled on Malady. The reasoning; while Malady's AP bonus is very low, it gives your auto-attacks quite the punch by adding ~70-some-odd Magic Damage to them every hit. Furthermore, the increased attack speed will have you attacking just as fast as any ADC. Finally, because of the fast attack speed, the MR pen will stack very quickly, and, if I've done my math correctly, Sorcerer's Treads + Full Malady Stacks is more MR pen than Sorcerer's Treads + Void Staff in most situations (unless your target has an insane amount of MR, which is almost never). An argument could be made, saying that Malady only focuses your MR pen on one target. However, TF isn't made like Karthus, Veigar, or Syndra; his AP damage is very focused, with Pick a Card usually only hitting one target (Red card's radius is quite narrow, and the damage is limited anyway), and Wild Cards' hit box is very small with the two side cards flying out at a very wide angle, meaning you probably will only hit one target (unless they're in a line).
Concluding Thoughts
I find TF to be a very difficult champion to do very well as. Whenever I watch people play him, he's always pretty solid, but never really great, and I think it's because of two reasons. 1) His damage is rather mediocre (Karthus, Veigar, Syndra, etc. can severely out-damage him in a short time period) and 2) people really waste the potential of Stacked Deck by forgoing attack speed. I think more players need to look at TF as a utility AP carry (5500 radius teleport, single target stun, AoE slow, high sustain with Blue card mana regen, very long poke with Wild Cards) with a high overall damage potential instead of trying to just maximize the damage from Wild Cards and Pick a Card. Also, throughout my playing career with TF, it has occurred to me that TF is very much gear-dependent; while he can makes some ganks early game, they rely on prolonged pokes with Wild Cards/Pick a Card. His early-game damage potential and survivability is quite low for an AP carry, and he really only starts to outshine others once he can get his second full item past boots. Because of this, his viability in Dominion seems limited (you will rarely get more than two items in a Dominion game and will never complete your build) and he is also rather limited in Twisted Treeline (lack of ability to consistently farm CS at high numbers due to more frequent team fights and a higher risk of ganking). Also, as to TF"s playstyle, he is, of course, a low-survivability poke AP carry, and as such, you have to be really careful about when you engage, and you should never step up into the fight unless your team is at a very clear advantage; if you are focused at all, you are very likely to drop. Also, I find AD TF to be almost completely non-viable now (as opposed to my earlier thoughts), as he has very little survivability or escape capability (his stuns/slows rely on luck and time, as you must not only hit the button once, but must wait for it to flip to the Yellow card and then hit the button again) and, late game, Wild Cards' damage will be almost insignificant without any AP. His farming capability is also much weaker than an AP TF's.
I'd love to hear other's well-thought out critiques of my ideas, as I haven't really run this by anyone yet. Please for the love of god, no flat AP yellow/blues. Run scaling AP blues (or situationally, flat MR blues), and scaling HP or flat / scaling mana regen or flat armor yellows. TF also desperately need MS quints. I only browsed over the rest, but if you build Rylai's as your first item you are probably not going to do very well. You absolutely need to go NLR + Sheen + Sorc Boots as your core, then build to Lich Bane, dcap/zhonya, and go from there. ...Could you please read more into it and give me actual explanations? Because I pretty specifically explained why my build serves me so well, and my game history shows it. Because the slow is not worth it. Your Q only procs 15% slow, your red card already has a slow, and if for some reason you drew a blue card instead of red/yellow, you simply misplayed. TF needs to itemize as much AP as possible so he can stay ahead the damage curve and be able to oneshot the backline. He also needs at least a little bit more damage (Sheen/Lich Bane) so he can pull off ganks more easily.
But TF shouldn't be ahead of the damage curve of other high-damage AP carry's in the first place, so why try to do it? Someone like Karthus, Veigar, Syndra, or probably even Orianna can out-damage him if you want to go for all-out damage, whereas TF's long poke, low CD stun, and long-range teleport gives him a lot more utility and flexibility than these heavy hitters. Why not take advantage of his utility as opposed to pure damage?
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What he means in that during the laning-phase, you need at least enough AP to one-shot the caster minions. That way, you can red card the second melee minion (the AoE will damage the other 2) and then Q the whole wave while it's still aligned. This allows TF to insta-clear at an extremely safe range, way earlier than most other mids (Gragas needs the creeps to get into their "2 line" formation if he wants to hit all 6 with his barrel for example, same with Morgana) and then run away to gank. If his opponent wants to follow him he'll likely lose a lot of farm to the tower (possibly the whole wave), this allows TF to be very mobile and pressure the farming ability of his opponent, even without using his ult (if they don't have enough wards or you know where they are).
It also allows TF to farm unopposed even when he's heavily losing his lane because he never needs to be in range of his opponent to farm (and if you have to Q twice to kill the wave, whatever, just wait for it to approach the tower, blue card a creep for mana, kill the others with the 2nd Q).
I hate that part of the champ. :[
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On January 25 2013 09:43 Alaric wrote:
What he means in that during the laning-phase, you need at least enough AP to one-shot the caster minions. That way, you can red card the second melee minion (the AoE will damage the other 2) and then Q the whole wave while it's still aligned. This allows TF to insta-clear at an extremely safe range, way earlier than most other mids (Gragas needs the creeps to get into their "2 line" formation if he wants to hit all 6 with his barrel for example, same with Morgana) and then run away to gank. If his opponent wants to follow him he'll likely lose a lot of farm to the tower (possibly the whole wave), this allows TF to be very mobile and pressure the farming ability of his opponent, even without using his ult (if they don't have enough wards or you know where they are).
It also allows TF to farm unopposed even when he's heavily losing his lane because he never needs to be in range of his opponent to farm (and if you have to Q twice to kill the wave, whatever, just wait for it to approach the tower, blue card a creep for mana, kill the others with the 2nd Q).
I hate that part of the champ. :[
Hmm, I never thought about this (and I don't recall ever taking note of this early game clearing ability in games I spectate). While this sounds like it would be quite nifty to be able to insta-clear a creep wave that much earlier, I've found that I can still farm a good 80/10 min while harassing my laning opponent, especially if I hit the back wave with Red cards that do splash damage. I'll have to try that build and see how much better this insta-clearing is.
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Playing TF is literally shoving your lane with your QW and then go gank. The better you can shove (i.e. more AP) and the more effective you can gank (usually from faster movement speed, such as boots, MS quints, Lich Bane, etc) the more effective you are.
Rylai requires a Giant's Belt. That's at least 1k gold not invested in shoving or ganking. Therefore it's not a good first item.
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Helps with ganks too, after it passes that point. Since realistically without the jungle you should never get a kill in lane as TF
ever
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TF with blue buff is godly in mid. Such a fun champ to play. In lane try to keep your opponent on his toes by leaving pick a card running for a while, don't always just immediately select gold (or whatever). Obviously when you hit 6 and you go to gank select gold card first so you can appear and stun + Q instantly. Also try to use your Q on creep waves that are still lined up so you hit every single one.
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Is it better to go Lich Bane or Rabadons first as TF?
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boots>rings>sheen>dcap>lichbane usually works best from my experience.
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On January 25 2013 14:36 LeapofFaith wrote:
Is it better to go Lich Bane or Rabadons first as TF?
I've seen a lot of people playing TF and it really varies. It will most likely depend on the situation as well.
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On January 25 2013 17:30 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 14:36 LeapofFaith wrote:
Is it better to go Lich Bane or Rabadons first as TF? I've seen a lot of people playing TF and it really varies. It will most likely depend on the situation as well.
Personally Sheen first has really worked out for me as TF. But I love Sheen first on everybody xD
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On January 25 2013 17:35 GhandiEAGLE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 17:30 Sufficiency wrote:On January 25 2013 14:36 LeapofFaith wrote:
Is it better to go Lich Bane or Rabadons first as TF? I've seen a lot of people playing TF and it really varies. It will most likely depend on the situation as well. Personally Sheen first has really worked out for me as TF. But I love Sheen first on everybody xD
Personally, if I think I can afk-shove the lane, I will go NLR. One notable example is TF vs Fizz.
I will consider Sheen more heavily in lanes which I actually need to trade.
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Double Dorans Sorc into Lich is standard build right now AFAIK
(NLR inbetween upgrade sometimes though)
Diverge from there, either Deathcap or Zhonya's depending on what you need
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Previously, sheen deathcap used to be the standard because of the flexibility and increased scaling off of a more expensive (but stronger proc) lichbane.
Now it's just a three-way tie among Lichbane, Deathcap, and Hourglass. All three are good choices, it's just that lichbane is slightly more flexible and augments TF's strengths faster, but the previous reasoning behind deathcap first or hourglass first is still applicable.
I highly dislike having two rings. A more well rounded early game set up is flask and a ring if you really need efficient stat (and regen) bonuses for surviving against something really gay.
5hit pls xDDD
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MC "TF Only" Milo dropping teh kn0wl3dg3
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EPT
