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On August 16 2012 06:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
million dollar question, what does she look like? im at work D:
i would imagine sandstorm looks pretty well the same cuz it wasn't hair in the first place
Actually, I liked the old Sandstorm Kat better 
The way she moves her feet while walking towards the left or right of your screen is really cool now, the animation gives the impression of her running very light. On the other hand, the way she holds both her daggers off to one side as she runs definitely looks less graceful than her previous animation.
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really have no idea how you are supposed to carry with her right now cause her early game is so god damn terrible right now
edit: actually the way i'm viewing her redesign right now is that previously her kit was more tailored to the concept of dropping 1 person at a time. her new kit seems to be more AoE focused with all her damage being supposedly shifted into her W. the problem with this is that now its either kill everything or kill nothing and doesn't allow you to kind of hop in and chain a few kills with shunpo or something.
it very much feels like her new W goes completely against her passive and made her even more of a hit or miss character than she was before the rework
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 16 2012 07:14 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 06:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
million dollar question, what does she look like? im at work D:
i would imagine sandstorm looks pretty well the same cuz it wasn't hair in the first place Actually, I liked the old Sandstorm Kat better The way she moves her feet while walking towards the left or right of your screen is really cool now, the animation gives the impression of her running very light. On the other hand, the way she holds both her daggers off to one side as she runs definitely looks less graceful than her previous animation.
aw did they give her the stupid run animation that zealots have in sc2? where they hold one of their arms bent in front of them like a retarded anime character? i have no idea why designers still think that looks cool. it was cool when the Phantom of the Opera held his cape menacingly around him as he creeped about, it looks fucking stupid on someone who is supposed to fight stuff
edit: AW THEY DID, LOOKS RETARDED. NOBODY RUNS LIKE THAT, ESPECIALLY NOT WHEN CARRYING BIG, HEAVY KNIVES
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On August 16 2012 04:46 MusicalPulse wrote:
Would lich bane be any good? Goes with the mark.
The mark isn't as strong on detonate as Akali's is. It's like 25% of the skill's damage rather than Akali's 50-50.
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On August 16 2012 07:26 Frolossus wrote:
really have no idea how you are supposed to carry with her right now cause her early game is so god damn terrible right now
edit: actually the way i'm viewing her redesign right now is that previously her kit was more tailored to the concept of dropping 1 person at a time. her new kit seems to be more AoE focused with all her damage being supposedly shifted into her W. the problem with this is that now its either kill everything or kill nothing and doesn't allow you to kind of hop in and chain a few kills with shunpo or something.
it very much feels like her new W goes completely against her passive and made her even more of a hit or miss character than she was before the rework
It's actually just the opposite.
Let me quote a recent post of mine on this thread:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2012 02:07 Zato-1 wrote:
Man, the Death Lotus damage nerfs were harsh. Here's some numbers:
Base damage per dagger reduced from 50/65/80 to 40/50/60
AP ratio reduced from .25 to .175
AD ratio reduced from .5 to .3
So that's a 20%/23%/25% nerf to base damage, a 30% nerf to AP ratio, and a 40% nerf to AD ratio, probably a 25-30% damage nerf overall. And this is without taking Killer Instincts into consideration.
At level 18 with 400 AP and no bonus AD, old Kat's DL would deal 80 damage base, +24 from Killer Instincts, +400*.25 = 100 from AP = 204 per dagger;
New Kat DL would deal 60 base + 400*.175 = 130 per dagger, for a total of 36% less overall damage.
EDIT: As to Shunpo and BB:
Shunpo was nerfed from 80/120/160/200/240 (+0.75 AP ratio) to 40/70/100/130/160 (+0.5 AP ratio) so that's 33% reduced damage, and BB was changed from 60/95/130/165/200 (+0.8 AD, +0.35 AP) to 50/85/120/155/190 (+0.5 AP) and can detonate mark for 15/30/45/60/75 (+0.2 AP) so that's roughly 30-40% more damage than old BB if you detonate the mark.
BB's direct damage remains more or less the same, Shunpo lost about a third of its damage, but you can recover that chunk of damage now by detonating BB's mark; taken together, BB + Shunpo deal about as much total damage post-rework as they did before it. Add Sinister Steel into the mix and and Kat's basic ability combo hits a LOT harder post-rework than it used to.
Then there's Death Lotus, which saw a 25-35% damage nerf and that's huge. As per my example in spoiler text, a full duration Death Lotus at level 18 with 400 AP used to do 204*10 = 2040 damage, now it would do 130*10 = 1300 damage, which means you're 740 damage behind. With that much AP, Sinister Steel can make up 340 damage or about half of the difference, but you still end up 400 damage short.
To recap: A full spell combo (assuming you channeled DL to its full duration) will now deal noticeably less damage. On the other hand, a spell combo of her basic abilities will be significantly stronger; this is what you get when you have DL on cooldown or if it's interrupted immediately. Her reliable damage (basic abilities) went up, while her maximum potential damage (if you hit a full duration DL) went down; that's the opposite of making Kat more hit or miss.
As a side note: BB cast animation seems a lot faster now and due to the mark it leaves, the order for using her abilities should probably now be Q -> E -> W -> R or maybe E -> Q -> W -> R, as opposed to the old W -> E -> R -> Q as the target's just getting out of DL range (with a gunblade clicky in between E and R).
Has anyone tried jungle Kat yet? WQWE makes for some pretty decent clear times, but I haven't tried it in any real games so far.
On August 16 2012 04:46 MusicalPulse wrote:
Would lich bane be any good? Goes with the mark.
Note that you don't need to autoattack to detonate BB's mark, ability damage from W, E or R will also do it, so it's different from lich bane in that regard.
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On August 16 2012 14:32 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 07:26 Frolossus wrote:
really have no idea how you are supposed to carry with her right now cause her early game is so god damn terrible right now
edit: actually the way i'm viewing her redesign right now is that previously her kit was more tailored to the concept of dropping 1 person at a time. her new kit seems to be more AoE focused with all her damage being supposedly shifted into her W. the problem with this is that now its either kill everything or kill nothing and doesn't allow you to kind of hop in and chain a few kills with shunpo or something.
it very much feels like her new W goes completely against her passive and made her even more of a hit or miss character than she was before the rework It's actually just the opposite. Let me quote a recent post of mine on this thread: + Show Spoiler +On August 16 2012 02:07 Zato-1 wrote:
Man, the Death Lotus damage nerfs were harsh. Here's some numbers:
Base damage per dagger reduced from 50/65/80 to 40/50/60
AP ratio reduced from .25 to .175
AD ratio reduced from .5 to .3
So that's a 20%/23%/25% nerf to base damage, a 30% nerf to AP ratio, and a 40% nerf to AD ratio, probably a 25-30% damage nerf overall. And this is without taking Killer Instincts into consideration.
At level 18 with 400 AP and no bonus AD, old Kat's DL would deal 80 damage base, +24 from Killer Instincts, +400*.25 = 100 from AP = 204 per dagger;
New Kat DL would deal 60 base + 400*.175 = 130 per dagger, for a total of 36% less overall damage.
EDIT: As to Shunpo and BB:
Shunpo was nerfed from 80/120/160/200/240 (+0.75 AP ratio) to 40/70/100/130/160 (+0.5 AP ratio) so that's 33% reduced damage, and BB was changed from 60/95/130/165/200 (+0.8 AD, +0.35 AP) to 50/85/120/155/190 (+0.5 AP) and can detonate mark for 15/30/45/60/75 (+0.2 AP) so that's roughly 30-40% more damage than old BB if you detonate the mark. BB's direct damage remains more or less the same, Shunpo lost about a third of its damage, but you can recover that chunk of damage now by detonating BB's mark; taken together, BB + Shunpo deal about as much total damage post-rework as they did before it. Add Sinister Steel into the mix and and Kat's basic ability combo hits a LOT harder post-rework than it used to. Then there's Death Lotus, which saw a 25-35% damage nerf and that's huge. As per my example in spoiler text, a full duration Death Lotus at level 18 with 400 AP used to do 204*10 = 2040 damage, now it would do 130*10 = 1300 damage, which means you're 740 damage behind. With that much AP, Sinister Steel can make up 340 damage or about half of the difference, but you still end up 400 damage short. To recap: A full spell combo (assuming you channeled DL to its full duration) will now deal noticeably less damage. On the other hand, a spell combo of her basic abilities will be significantly stronger; this is what you get when you have DL on cooldown or if it's interrupted immediately. Her reliable damage (basic abilities) went up, while her maximum potential damage (if you hit a full duration DL) went down; that's the opposite of making Kat more hit or miss. As a side note: BB cast animation seems a lot faster now and due to the mark it leaves, the order for using her abilities should probably now be Q -> E -> W -> R or maybe E -> Q -> W -> R, as opposed to the old W -> E -> R -> Q as the target's just getting out of DL range (with a gunblade clicky in between E and R). Has anyone tried jungle Kat yet? WQWE makes for some pretty decent clear times, but I haven't tried it in any real games so far. Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 04:46 MusicalPulse wrote:
Would lich bane be any good? Goes with the mark. Note that you don't need to autoattack to detonate BB's mark, ability damage from W, E or R will also do it, so it's different from lich bane in that regard.
I am guessing you can spam W and auto in melee range. I don't see this working out though, because Katarina is way too squishy to try to do this kind of sustained damage.
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On August 16 2012 01:48 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel that the new Kat has problems in the laning phase. She can't poke effectively anymore with her Q, and going all-in with her E is OK, but she can rarely win the trades.
Poking with Q has always been a lottery, and you couldn't win trades with old Kat either, unless you consider waiting for TF to randomly use PaC on creeps, then ERQ him to be a trade. The issue with the new Kat is that because of how much damage you miss out on a full rotation, it will be hard to ever force a situation where you can kill the enemy laner unless they fuck up really badly. That being said, pushing out the wave and roaming is now more of an option than ever before, so maybe Kat players need to start roaming even more now.
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On August 16 2012 14:46 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 01:48 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel that the new Kat has problems in the laning phase. She can't poke effectively anymore with her Q, and going all-in with her E is OK, but she can rarely win the trades. Poking with Q has always been a lottery, and you couldn't win trades with old Kat either, unless you consider waiting for TF to randomly use PaC on creeps, then ERQ him to be a trade. The issue with the new Kat is that because of how much damage you miss out on a full rotation, it will be hard to ever force a situation where you can kill the enemy laner unless they fuck up really badly. That being said, pushing out the wave and roaming is now more of an option than ever before, so maybe Kat players need to start roaming even more now.
The old Kat can at least randomly bounce her Q onto the opposing laner, wear him down, then go in for the kill.
The new Kat can't really do that. The new Kat can, however, E in and trade with Q + W. But I find her trade underwhelming.
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On August 16 2012 15:23 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 14:46 Shiv. wrote:On August 16 2012 01:48 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel that the new Kat has problems in the laning phase. She can't poke effectively anymore with her Q, and going all-in with her E is OK, but she can rarely win the trades. Poking with Q has always been a lottery, and you couldn't win trades with old Kat either, unless you consider waiting for TF to randomly use PaC on creeps, then ERQ him to be a trade. The issue with the new Kat is that because of how much damage you miss out on a full rotation, it will be hard to ever force a situation where you can kill the enemy laner unless they fuck up really badly. That being said, pushing out the wave and roaming is now more of an option than ever before, so maybe Kat players need to start roaming even more now. The old Kat can at least randomly bounce her Q onto the opposing laner, wear him down, then go in for the kill. The new Kat can't really do that. The new Kat can, however, E in and trade with Q + W. But I find her trade underwhelming.
I think we're on the same page here and just arguing semantics. What I was trying to put across is that a) her laning phase has always been horrible and b) that she never wanted to trade but rather, as you said, wittle them down and then punish them for not going back. New Kat punishes less hard and apparently still can't trade too well.
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Has anyone read her lore since the change? So bad -_-
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On August 16 2012 14:32 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 07:26 Frolossus wrote:
really have no idea how you are supposed to carry with her right now cause her early game is so god damn terrible right now
edit: actually the way i'm viewing her redesign right now is that previously her kit was more tailored to the concept of dropping 1 person at a time. her new kit seems to be more AoE focused with all her damage being supposedly shifted into her W. the problem with this is that now its either kill everything or kill nothing and doesn't allow you to kind of hop in and chain a few kills with shunpo or something.
it very much feels like her new W goes completely against her passive and made her even more of a hit or miss character than she was before the rework It's actually just the opposite. Let me quote a recent post of mine on this thread: + Show Spoiler +On August 16 2012 02:07 Zato-1 wrote:
Man, the Death Lotus damage nerfs were harsh. Here's some numbers:
Base damage per dagger reduced from 50/65/80 to 40/50/60
AP ratio reduced from .25 to .175
AD ratio reduced from .5 to .3
So that's a 20%/23%/25% nerf to base damage, a 30% nerf to AP ratio, and a 40% nerf to AD ratio, probably a 25-30% damage nerf overall. And this is without taking Killer Instincts into consideration.
At level 18 with 400 AP and no bonus AD, old Kat's DL would deal 80 damage base, +24 from Killer Instincts, +400*.25 = 100 from AP = 204 per dagger;
New Kat DL would deal 60 base + 400*.175 = 130 per dagger, for a total of 36% less overall damage.
EDIT: As to Shunpo and BB:
Shunpo was nerfed from 80/120/160/200/240 (+0.75 AP ratio) to 40/70/100/130/160 (+0.5 AP ratio) so that's 33% reduced damage, and BB was changed from 60/95/130/165/200 (+0.8 AD, +0.35 AP) to 50/85/120/155/190 (+0.5 AP) and can detonate mark for 15/30/45/60/75 (+0.2 AP) so that's roughly 30-40% more damage than old BB if you detonate the mark. BB's direct damage remains more or less the same, Shunpo lost about a third of its damage, but you can recover that chunk of damage now by detonating BB's mark; taken together, BB + Shunpo deal about as much total damage post-rework as they did before it. Add Sinister Steel into the mix and and Kat's basic ability combo hits a LOT harder post-rework than it used to. Then there's Death Lotus, which saw a 25-35% damage nerf and that's huge. As per my example in spoiler text, a full duration Death Lotus at level 18 with 400 AP used to do 204*10 = 2040 damage, now it would do 130*10 = 1300 damage, which means you're 740 damage behind. With that much AP, Sinister Steel can make up 340 damage or about half of the difference, but you still end up 400 damage short. To recap: A full spell combo (assuming you channeled DL to its full duration) will now deal noticeably less damage. On the other hand, a spell combo of her basic abilities will be significantly stronger; this is what you get when you have DL on cooldown or if it's interrupted immediately. Her reliable damage (basic abilities) went up, while her maximum potential damage (if you hit a full duration DL) went down; that's the opposite of making Kat more hit or miss. As a side note: BB cast animation seems a lot faster now and due to the mark it leaves, the order for using her abilities should probably now be Q -> E -> W -> R or maybe E -> Q -> W -> R, as opposed to the old W -> E -> R -> Q as the target's just getting out of DL range (with a gunblade clicky in between E and R). Has anyone tried jungle Kat yet? WQWE makes for some pretty decent clear times, but I haven't tried it in any real games so far. Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 04:46 MusicalPulse wrote:
Would lich bane be any good? Goes with the mark. Note that you don't need to autoattack to detonate BB's mark, ability damage from W, E or R will also do it, so it's different from lich bane in that regard.
she has less burst which makes it harder to secure kills and get resets which makes her even more snowbally then before right?
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Ugh, witnessed Kat firsthand at this point. Verdict: No damage. It's depressing when a kat comes into a fight with several opponents already chunked down to around half, gets off at least most of an ulti (It MIGHT have been the full thing? It felt so short...) QE, 2-3 W's and they finally finish her (and me) off and all get out with low health and nobody ever died to trigger her passive.
It's like... that's when Kat is SUPPOSED to jump into a fight and mop it up. Where's the mop?
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On August 16 2012 18:52 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 14:32 Zato-1 wrote:On August 16 2012 07:26 Frolossus wrote:
really have no idea how you are supposed to carry with her right now cause her early game is so god damn terrible right now
edit: actually the way i'm viewing her redesign right now is that previously her kit was more tailored to the concept of dropping 1 person at a time. her new kit seems to be more AoE focused with all her damage being supposedly shifted into her W. the problem with this is that now its either kill everything or kill nothing and doesn't allow you to kind of hop in and chain a few kills with shunpo or something.
it very much feels like her new W goes completely against her passive and made her even more of a hit or miss character than she was before the rework It's actually just the opposite. Let me quote a recent post of mine on this thread: + Show Spoiler +On August 16 2012 02:07 Zato-1 wrote:
Man, the Death Lotus damage nerfs were harsh. Here's some numbers:
Base damage per dagger reduced from 50/65/80 to 40/50/60
AP ratio reduced from .25 to .175
AD ratio reduced from .5 to .3
So that's a 20%/23%/25% nerf to base damage, a 30% nerf to AP ratio, and a 40% nerf to AD ratio, probably a 25-30% damage nerf overall. And this is without taking Killer Instincts into consideration.
At level 18 with 400 AP and no bonus AD, old Kat's DL would deal 80 damage base, +24 from Killer Instincts, +400*.25 = 100 from AP = 204 per dagger;
New Kat DL would deal 60 base + 400*.175 = 130 per dagger, for a total of 36% less overall damage.
EDIT: As to Shunpo and BB:
Shunpo was nerfed from 80/120/160/200/240 (+0.75 AP ratio) to 40/70/100/130/160 (+0.5 AP ratio) so that's 33% reduced damage, and BB was changed from 60/95/130/165/200 (+0.8 AD, +0.35 AP) to 50/85/120/155/190 (+0.5 AP) and can detonate mark for 15/30/45/60/75 (+0.2 AP) so that's roughly 30-40% more damage than old BB if you detonate the mark. BB's direct damage remains more or less the same, Shunpo lost about a third of its damage, but you can recover that chunk of damage now by detonating BB's mark; taken together, BB + Shunpo deal about as much total damage post-rework as they did before it. Add Sinister Steel into the mix and and Kat's basic ability combo hits a LOT harder post-rework than it used to. Then there's Death Lotus, which saw a 25-35% damage nerf and that's huge. As per my example in spoiler text, a full duration Death Lotus at level 18 with 400 AP used to do 204*10 = 2040 damage, now it would do 130*10 = 1300 damage, which means you're 740 damage behind. With that much AP, Sinister Steel can make up 340 damage or about half of the difference, but you still end up 400 damage short. To recap: A full spell combo (assuming you channeled DL to its full duration) will now deal noticeably less damage. On the other hand, a spell combo of her basic abilities will be significantly stronger; this is what you get when you have DL on cooldown or if it's interrupted immediately. Her reliable damage (basic abilities) went up, while her maximum potential damage (if you hit a full duration DL) went down; that's the opposite of making Kat more hit or miss. As a side note: BB cast animation seems a lot faster now and due to the mark it leaves, the order for using her abilities should probably now be Q -> E -> W -> R or maybe E -> Q -> W -> R, as opposed to the old W -> E -> R -> Q as the target's just getting out of DL range (with a gunblade clicky in between E and R). Has anyone tried jungle Kat yet? WQWE makes for some pretty decent clear times, but I haven't tried it in any real games so far. On August 16 2012 04:46 MusicalPulse wrote:
Would lich bane be any good? Goes with the mark. Note that you don't need to autoattack to detonate BB's mark, ability damage from W, E or R will also do it, so it's different from lich bane in that regard. she has less burst which makes it harder to secure kills and get resets which makes her even more snowbally then before right?
What I understand by a hit-or-miss champion is characters like AD Yi or old Kat; sometimes they get fed and become unstoppable, teamfight-wrecking forces, other times they fall behind a bit and are useless in teamfights because they don't manage to get that first kill, their abilities don't reset, they get CC'ed and shut down and they didn't even contribute any CC for their own team.
If her best-case scenario is now worse (because she deals less damage and it's harder for her to get that pentakill going) but her worst-case scenario is better (she can't get shut down quite as hard as old Kat), then that's less snowbally than before in my book.
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messing around with R>W>Q>E
managing to get a little over 10 cs a minute now wraith/wolves clear so fast but thats about it for new W's usefulness
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I actually think the new Kat is pretty OP, way better than the old Kat. She is a real champion now who is no longer restricted to a situational pick. Her new BB also requires some more thinking...
One thing I am really annoyed at is how low her skill ceiling is giving how well-rounded she is now.
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New kat has a harder time harassing in lane with Q if your opponent stays back because you cant random it anymore. But if they step in front of the ranged minions you can hit them more easily. She is still just as weak early game, maybe even weaker than she was but now her mid-game farming is increased greatly with Q+W.
While old kat could wear them down with Q+killer instincts, the new kat needs to wait until her opponent is on CD and then Q>E>W them. Her shunpo procs the Q mark and the speed boost from W lets you run away quickly for the trade.
Her Ult does indeed do less damage during the full channel but now its only a 2 second channel spell so the damage is slightly more bursty. Use her ult whenever you can maximize its damage and Q>E>W to pick off enemies and proc her passive in fights.
I still build her the exact same way as before with Sorcs>Gblade>Abyssal>Hat and sometimes I'll mix in DFG if we are playing the gp10 meta. You just need to get used to playing her new laning phase but her teamfighing is pretty much the same. I'd say the remake is a late game buff for her since midgame farming is easier.
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I played Diana vs Katarina twice in a row tonight. Gosh. This has got to be the most annoying match-up ever.
On paper it seems that Diana should have an upper hand. WRONG. It is extremely difficult to land a Q on Katarina; on the other hand, once you miss a Q (which you will) she can Q you for free. If I don't Q before my R, she can actually come out on top in a trade because of her higher Q ratio, W, and damage reduction though E. Also I have to try to poke her, because she is manaless and she can spam her Q anytime she wants, whereas I am actually limited by my mana even though I am able to run MP5 yellows against Kat (compared to flat armor yellows against a ranged AP).
I know Tiensi and scarra both think the new Katarina is weak - this might be true; however, I think she is so well-rounded now that many of her old counters now lose to her in lane pretty badly. Katarina now crushes LeBlanc in lane because Katarina can spam her W until LeBlanc dies. Watching how scarra played as Kassadin against Tiensi's Katarina, I think it's safe to say that Kassadin is also very weak against Katarina now.
The main issue is with her W. It does a lot of sustain damage, has very short cooldown, and gives Kat a speed boost that allows her to chase her target. If you are playing a bursty AP and you don't kill Kat in one shot (which you won't, because Katarina has MR/lvl and her E provides damage reduction), she will slowly but surely W you to death.
On a different note, I got a delayed penta in the second game against Kat. Yay.
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From what I can tell, straight AP is the only way to play Kat now. The base damage on her individual skills is too low now. Before, you could focus on Q and E and got all the damage out of your kit, now you need all of Q, E AND W to deal base damage. That delays her damage by a lot as you need more levels. Therefore you have to abuse the damage from AP ratios.
Deathcap first definitely would be core then.
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i'm just glad she's still a fucking beast in proving grounds :3 (not that it was gonna change with her passive, but. lol)
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EPT
