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On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ?
The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV
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On October 10 2015 06:25 Athenau wrote:@cheddartoss: Uhhh, no. Old chrono was a 50% rate increase. It wasn't a 50% decrease in duration Unboosted: 10 seconds Old Chrono: 6.67 seconds (10/1.5) New Chrono: 8.69 seconds (10/1.15) That's 30% slower not 70% slower. For reference: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_BoostIn particular: Show nested quote +Located at the Nexus, this ability can be activated using 25 energy and is used to increase the production or research speed at the target building by 50%. This allows the building to do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds, so production/research will complete 10 seconds earlier.
You are right.
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On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV
lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems.
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They could fix mule spam pretty easily any number of ways. Location based mining is one way, like they did for a patch (which would make terrans have to cycle their bases), or make it like spawn larva queuing is now. The next mule would get called down after the cooldown timer finishes, if you've preemptively told it to when you had extra mana built up. Ideally they would remove these things completely, but that's off the board to rush the release date.
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I`m okay with Cyclone, but still think it needs longer AA range than speed buff.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Cyclone movement speed increased to 4.72 from 3.94.
fuck
What is with people equating all the macro mechanics. They all play fundamentally different roles of different importance for each race. Making a direct comparison is really dumb.
Because chrono boost is a fun mechanic and mule is not at all. Nobody wants their race to be weak enough to need ridiculous mineral boost to keep 50/50 winrate or compete in later stages of the game - if we nerf one mechanic more, it should be the mule.
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On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS")
The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game.
During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems.
Carrier late game ?
Liberator behind mineral lines ?
....
Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv.
Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world.
We should expect a lot more from them.
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On October 10 2015 06:47 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS") The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game. During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems. Carrier late game ? Liberator behind mineral lines ? .... Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv. Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world. We should expect a lot more from them.
What really bothers me is that they looked to be on the right track for a long period of time, and then they just lost it. The warpgate change was bad, the macro mechanics change just ruined the end of the beta because it should have been tested at the beginning, not in the middle of the beta. They could have improved upon an already great game, but in the end all they created was a mess, and I'm not very optimistic that mess will magically sort out to give us a solid last iteration for our cherished game.
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On October 10 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:47 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS") The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game. During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems. Carrier late game ? Liberator behind mineral lines ? .... Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv. Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world. We should expect a lot more from them. What really bothers me is that they looked to be on the right track for a long period of time, and then they just lost it. The warpgate change was bad, the macro mechanics change just ruined the end of the beta because it should have been tested at the beginning, not in the middle of the beta. They could have improved upon an already great game, but in the end all they created was a mess, and I'm not very optimistic that mess will magically sort out to give us a solid last iteration for our cherished game.
History repeats. Do you remember when HotS beta began? they rodomontaded as if everything would be changed, but it was released nothing changed, except some additional units.
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On October 10 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:47 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS") The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game. During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems. Carrier late game ? Liberator behind mineral lines ? .... Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv. Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world. We should expect a lot more from them. What really bothers me is that they looked to be on the right track for a long period of time, and then they just lost it. The warpgate change was bad, the macro mechanics change just ruined the end of the beta because it should have been tested at the beginning, not in the middle of the beta. They could have improved upon an already great game, but in the end all they created was a mess, and I'm not very optimistic that mess will magically sort out to give us a solid last iteration for our cherished game.
I think they should have listen the community, maybe be inspired by some proposals, but not blindly follow some random proposals of the community and mix it with their ideas.
They were pushed very hard by the community to do big changes when it may have been better to simply polish the game.
Sadly they decided to "try" the macro mechanics removal but they didn't try it long enough to have relevant results because they didn't believe in this change. So they lost a lot of time for nothing.
I say that but i think the game was really better without injects/mules
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the cyclone speed is good, not super crazy, its slower than a hellion and speedlings can still catch it
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They going in the good way with these change, all seems clever and reasonnable and make a better game except for the cyclone who need another change instead speed.
I love macro mechanics, inject mule and chrono are needed and i think there all good with this patch the game is much more enjoyable the way it is
Just waiting for a good huge viper and ultra nerf to have a playable late game against Zerg and this will be fine
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On October 10 2015 06:59 Thouhastmail wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 06:47 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS") The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game. During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems. Carrier late game ? Liberator behind mineral lines ? .... Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv. Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world. We should expect a lot more from them. What really bothers me is that they looked to be on the right track for a long period of time, and then they just lost it. The warpgate change was bad, the macro mechanics change just ruined the end of the beta because it should have been tested at the beginning, not in the middle of the beta. They could have improved upon an already great game, but in the end all they created was a mess, and I'm not very optimistic that mess will magically sort out to give us a solid last iteration for our cherished game. History repeats. Do you remember when HotS beta began? they rodomontaded as if everything would be changed, but it was released nothing changed, except some additional units.
Supposedly things were going to be differnt this time. We were told this beta would be far longer than all the other betas. Yet in the end we are ~1 month within the length of Heart of the Swarm beta.
That, among many other things (such as their store page saying the game will be released by March 2016, the complete and sudden change of direction of the beta as soon as theier release date is announced, the release date being within days of BlizzCon) tells me it was never their true plan to release the game right now in this state.
Obviously something major was planned for BlizzCon and got scrapped, and then they filled it in by bumping up SC2 release.
Let's be honest anyway. Of all Blizzards games, SC is getting the short end of the stick right now. It's their least profitable franchise currently. Lowest player base of their current generation of games. Lowest amount of casuals playing it. The only thing SC2 has going for it is it's eSport popularity, but even that isn't what it used to be, and Blizzard is slowly redirecting their eSport marketing towards Heroes anyway...
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I would be interested in how similar LotV ends up being compared to HotS gameplay wise. It seems like it tried to be different and then a lot of stuff has been reverted to HotS or is considering being reverted back to HotS. At this point, I'm disappointed cause it feels like HotS with just more units being nerfed (besides the economy change).
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Why did they change the Warp Prism time AND the defensive warpin time. Just change the goddamn Warp Prism, there's no reason to nerf extra shit just because you can. Honestly with the power of drops the 2second warp in at home was really really fun, and not that OP.
It should be: 2 Second Defensive warpin, 5second Warp Prism, 16second pylon warpin. And shouldn't change the adept hp again. Why does blizzard always have to over do it.
No more whining about Protoss please, and it's time to look at the other races. Each race has significant gaps that need balancing. PvZ Currently Lurkers/Ultra(How exactly are you suppose to kill 8 armor ultralisks with no hardened shield?) and since WOL muta tech switches have punished protoss, force out Double Robo/Disruptor with 5 lurkers, while they're floundering around with that, swap to muta and laugh, what is the answer other than Mass-Air every game? Currently In PvT Protoss has no solid answer to Liberators. Tempests? rediculous counter. Ok let's make the anti-massive unit against the armored-mechanical makes sense to me? I don't think Liberator Tempest games are very fun.Overall it seems every race is getting pushed to air. Carriers may be OP, but it's also the only answer.
Terran kinda feels like it DOES have enough anti-air if they use all options, so I'm not sure if it needs more mech anti-air but I guess Blizzards trying to make something happen with the cyclone, strange buff.
Zerg air feels like how Protoss ground has to play but in the air, it's not so much a straight up fight as trying to get off that combowombo of spells to just destroy everything. I donno it does feel like Mass-Corruptor Viper, Infestor really does beat carriers but it's just the problem of execution, and Zerg can flip between air/ground at a whim so it's not as punishing. For Protoss and Terran it's a real committal.
But Robo REALLY needs some kind of anti-air. Otherwise adepts are also pretty much dead now. You need Blink stalkers because they shoot up, whether blinking on liberators or warding off mutas, stalkers all round just have better utility. I find myself making a few Adepts when my minerals are out of whack, but that's it, chargelots seem better as a mineral dump most of the time now. The only other time is to build 4 and load them in a warp prism. Byebye Core unit.
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Speedlings aren't the fastest unit anymore? that's messsed up
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On October 10 2015 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems.
LotV is taking risks, HotS almost didn't take many. And it turned out that the little risk they took still made for a balanced but boring and stale meta. I know this is arguable but HotS made me and many other players quit for a long time. LotV is taking a lot more risks (even though they could still take a lot more imho), and while it can create a lot more problems, it also has a lot more potential.
Blizzard needs to balance between pleasing the old crowd and bringing enough innovation to make it interesting. We live in different times now, 2008 is long gone and the way people play has changed, too.
Imho, they should do everything to shake up the game. More drastic changes, who cares if they're imbalanced. If you want balance so much, stay at HotS the next months. But sadly they already gave in to the "BALANCE!!!" crowd and stopped designing LotV.
So I hope they stay true to their word and do big changes even after release.
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On October 10 2015 08:09 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems. LotV is taking risks, HotS almost didn't take many. And it turned out that the little risk they took still made for a balanced but boring and stale meta. I know this is arguable but HotS made me and many other players quit for a long time. LotV is taking a lot more risks (even though they could still take a lot more imho), and while it can create a lot more problems, it also has a lot more potential. Blizzard needs to balance between pleasing the old crowd and bringing enough innovation to make it interesting. We live in different times now, 2008 is long gone and the way people play has changed, too. Imho, they should do everything to shake up the game. More drastic changes, who cares if they're imbalanced. If you want balance so much, stay at HotS the next months. But sadly they already gave in to the "BALANCE!!!" crowd and stopped designing LotV. So I hope they stay true to their word and do big changes even after release.
Problem is that if you ask me they took the worst of both worlds with those half-hearted revolutions. In the end, we get a game that will probably be plagued with balance problems for months and no really relevant change compared to HotS, while we could expect either a) a roughly balanced game or b) a wild and bold game. We get nothing.
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On October 10 2015 08:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 08:09 KeksX wrote:On October 10 2015 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems. LotV is taking risks, HotS almost didn't take many. And it turned out that the little risk they took still made for a balanced but boring and stale meta. I know this is arguable but HotS made me and many other players quit for a long time. LotV is taking a lot more risks (even though they could still take a lot more imho), and while it can create a lot more problems, it also has a lot more potential. Blizzard needs to balance between pleasing the old crowd and bringing enough innovation to make it interesting. We live in different times now, 2008 is long gone and the way people play has changed, too. Imho, they should do everything to shake up the game. More drastic changes, who cares if they're imbalanced. If you want balance so much, stay at HotS the next months. But sadly they already gave in to the "BALANCE!!!" crowd and stopped designing LotV. So I hope they stay true to their word and do big changes even after release. Problem is that if you ask me they took the worst of both worlds with those half-hearted revolutions. In the end, we get a game that will probably be plagued with balance problems for months and no really relevant change compared to HotS, while we could expect either a) a roughly balanced game or b) a wild and bold game. We get nothing.
Because they're trying to please a community that doesn't even know what it wants. People are split 50/50 on so many topics.
And then they have this damned early release date, too...
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EPT
