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Balance update just posted up.
Protoss
Adept health reduced to 60 shield and 80 health from 60 shield and 90 health.
Warping in at a Pylon powering a Gateway or Nexus and with Warp Prisms increased to 5 seconds from 2 seconds.
Units warping in no longer receive double damage.
Disruptors can now be loaded into Warp Prisms while Purification Nova is active.
This action will cancel Purification Nova, causing no damage.
Terran
MULE return rate multiplier decreased to 2.05 from 3.85.
MULE harvest amount decreased to 25 from 30.
Cyclone movement speed increased to 4.72 from 3.94.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19919131/legacy-of-the-void-beta-balance-update-october-9-2015-10-9-2015
edit: could a mod change the title to LotV Balance Update October 9th? Looks like it got cut off in my haste.
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Hellion/Cyclone every matchup FTW? I will try to make it work. Kite for days, then Helbat for the finisher.
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That speed increase is nuts. I was expecting a 5% bump, not 20%. But I assume that this is the typical Blizzard balance by binary search approach, so it'll probably end up around 10% faster than before.
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Warp Prism, Warpgate, and Adept Nerfs.
Not taking double damage during warping in is neat though. But if it takes twice as long to warp in... they will still take double damage haha.
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and thus begins Legacy of the oblivion
So in the end warpgate has just been nerfed in every aspects of the game :D
Back to 3 bases turtle i guess assuming we can still hold
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I believe adept change isn't needed when prisms are nerfed - but I might be wrong. I feel the nerf might be a little to drastic for Protoss but not sure. Mule is needed vs Zerg and Protoss nearly equally as you dont get your economy and production running as Terran - at least it feels really hurt all the time.
Cyclone can receive all buffs , tripple shot, aoe whatever.. its an uninteresting unit to me.
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great i'm really looking forward to being kited by a unit with more speed and range than anything in my tech tree
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So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before... and those can not be spammed?
Not sure how that makes any sense...
So I guess like the last 2 iterations of SC2, at the launch Terran will be in a very strong position, then 1 year later they will be nerfed in to the worst position for another year...
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I didn't have any problems with adepts after the last patch anyway. Warp prism change is... good. But it was kind of fun to see them being used often.
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On October 10 2015 05:16 SoleSteeler wrote:
I didn't have any problems with adepts after the last patch anyway. Warp prism change is... good. But it was kind of fun to see them being used often.
warp prisms were really common in all matchups in hots and zealot warpins were really strong
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I wonder why they aren't trying 3 or 4 second warp-in instead of 5.
Don't really care about the cyclone. Like most people I agree in that crap should gtfo of the game.
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I was really excited for Protoss in LotV, the warpin changes was some of the best design I've seen out of Blizzard yet and now they reversed them to HotS basically..
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So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before...
Chrono is more 40% nerf cause HOTS chrono is 50 % increase for 20 sec and you got 25 energy in 40 sec. So it's a 25% average increase in HOTS to 15% LoTV. Minus less flexibility.
i don't get balance team anyway those numbers seem so random ...
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+ Show Spoiler +I was really excited for Protoss in LotV, the warpin changes was some of the best design I've seen out of Blizzard yet and now they reversed them to HotS basically..
yeah that +mass blink stalker in all 3 Mu lol, adept doesn't fill the core unit role only good to kill workers and lone marines
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So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%?
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On October 10 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote:
So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%?
never underestimate the power of the terran whine
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On October 10 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote:
So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%?
MULE is a lot more important to Terran than chrono is for Protoss.
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On October 10 2015 05:41 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote:
So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%? MULE is a lot more important to Terran than chrono is for Protoss.
I don't think so. Workers and income are equally important to all races.
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On October 10 2015 05:15 Spyridon wrote:
So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before... and those can not be spammed?
Not sure how that makes any sense...
So I guess like the last 2 iterations of SC2, at the launch Terran will be in a very strong position, then 1 year later they will be nerfed in to the worst position for another year...
On October 10 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote:
So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%?
What is with people equating all the macro mechanics. They all play fundamentally different roles of different importance for each race. Making a direct comparison is really dumb.
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On October 10 2015 05:44 Para199x wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:15 Spyridon wrote:
So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before... and those can not be spammed?
Not sure how that makes any sense...
So I guess like the last 2 iterations of SC2, at the launch Terran will be in a very strong position, then 1 year later they will be nerfed in to the worst position for another year... Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote:
So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%? What is with people equating all the macro mechanics. They all play fundamentally different roles of different importance for each race. Making a direct comparison is really dumb.
It is not. If those numbers were balanced in HotS and the mining efficiency of workers has not changed in LotV, this kind of disproportional nerf is a direct hit to Protoss economy.
Edit: Because Protoss now have less Probes at any given time.
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On October 10 2015 05:44 Para199x wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:15 Spyridon wrote:
So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before... and those can not be spammed?
Not sure how that makes any sense...
So I guess like the last 2 iterations of SC2, at the launch Terran will be in a very strong position, then 1 year later they will be nerfed in to the worst position for another year... Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote:
So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%? What is with people equating all the macro mechanics. They all play fundamentally different roles of different importance for each race. Making a direct comparison is really dumb.
Extra larvae for drone production -- probe build time reduction -- MULE income -- are all affecting different aspects of production. Each contribute to income in very different ways. No way could they all be adjusted by a same percentage and expect a balanced game. Zerg always has more production slots. Protoss got cheesy timings by speeding certain things up. Terran floated minerals. Impossible to keep balanced with uniform adjustments.
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Mule was nerfed by 1-25/30 = .2 or 20%. That is, Mules now bring in 20% less income than before. But the impact on total income is much lower.
Chrono was nerfed by 1-1.15/1.25 = .08 or 8% where the 25% is the average chronoboost increases from one nexus since you're limited by energy regen (< 100% chronoboost uptime).
That is, things being chrono-ed by one nexus now produce at a rate 8% slower than before. The big change is that you can longer dump multiple nexuses worth of energy regen into one thing. In that case it's a 1 - 1.15/1.5 = .233 or 23.3% nerf.
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Protoss got a very minor early-game production speed nerf, and a significant nerf when it comes to hitting timings since that's when you want dump all your chrono into one thing.
Terran just got a very minor income nerf. A Mule is now worth 3.6 SCV's, it used to be worth 4.5 Since the starting worker count is 12, that amount to a 1 - 15.6/16.5 = .055 or 5.5% mineral income nerf.
Edit:
TL;DR: Protoss all-ins nerfed. Late game mass mules and mule based comebacks from catastrophic worker damage nerfed. Everything else pretty much the same.
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On October 10 2015 05:28 Firkraag8 wrote:
I was really excited for Protoss in LotV, the warpin changes was some of the best design I've seen out of Blizzard yet and now they reversed them to HotS basically..
Like everything else in the beta...
On October 10 2015 05:44 Para199x wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:15 Spyridon wrote:
So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before... and those can not be spammed?
Not sure how that makes any sense...
So I guess like the last 2 iterations of SC2, at the launch Terran will be in a very strong position, then 1 year later they will be nerfed in to the worst position for another year... Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote:
So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%? What is with people equating all the macro mechanics. They all play fundamentally different roles of different importance for each race. Making a direct comparison is really dumb.
Because hots is in a somewhat balanced state, and then if you take the macro mechancis and makes some have a minor difference while some being significantly weaker, that does not reflect on a smart idea for balance. 40% is a SIGNIFICANT difference.... and very noticable. I am not even a Protoss player and it is troubling to see them receive such a hard nerf while Terrans mechanic is barely untouched and they still did not fix the REAL problem with Mules (the spammability).
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On October 10 2015 05:52 Athenau wrote:
Mule was nerfed by 1-25/30 = .2 or 20%. That is, Mules now bring in 20% less income than before. But the impact on total income is much lower.
Chrono was nerfed by 1-1.15/1.25 = .08 or 8% where the 25% is the average chronoboost increases from one nexus since you're limited by energy regen (< 100% chronoboost uptime).
That is, things being chrono-ed by one nexus now produce at a rate 8% slower than before. The big change is that you can longer dump multiple nexus's worth of energy regen into one thing. In that case it's a 1 - 1.15/1.5 = .233 or 23.3% nerf.
Your math is flawed, mate. 1-25/30 = 16,6%. Chrono reduction from 25% to 15% is 1-15/25 = 40%. Or compared to HotS chrono with multiple Nexi, in cases where you can chrono one Upgrade/Unit non-stop:1-15/50= 70%. Yep, a nerf of whopping 70%. That is why we see Protoss dying way more often to tech switches in LotV, than we do in HotS.
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Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ?
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Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ...
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On October 10 2015 06:03 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:52 Athenau wrote:
Mule was nerfed by 1-25/30 = .2 or 20%. That is, Mules now bring in 20% less income than before. But the impact on total income is much lower.
Chrono was nerfed by 1-1.15/1.25 = .08 or 8% where the 25% is the average chronoboost increases from one nexus since you're limited by energy regen (< 100% chronoboost uptime).
That is, things being chrono-ed by one nexus now produce at a rate 8% slower than before. The big change is that you can longer dump multiple nexus's worth of energy regen into one thing. In that case it's a 1 - 1.15/1.5 = .233 or 23.3% nerf. Your math is flawed, mate. 1-25/30 = 16,6%. Chrono reduction from 25% to 15% is 1-15/25 = 40%. Or compared to HotS chrono with multiple Nexi, in cases where you can chrono on Upgrade/Unit non-stop:1-15/50= 70%. Yep, a nerf of whopping 70%. That is why we see Protoss dying way more often to tech switches in LotV, than we do in HotS.
Whoops, you're right, that should be 16.6%.
But the rest of your math is wrong. 1-15/25 is a meaningless quantity. You care about the rate at which you produce chronoboosted things (which is when you used the time averaged 25% number for old chrono, since multiple nexuses can be used to speed up multiple production facilities), or the time it takes to finish something (like an upgrade, or a key unit), which is when you're actually dumping multiple nexuses worth of energy into one thing.
You produce things 8.6% slower, and things take (1.5/1.15 - 1)*100 = 30% longer to complete.
70% is complete nonsense.
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Great patch but the strength of mass air compositions should really be looked at.
That and unkillable ultras are the biggest problem atm.
I wonder what the current warpin does better then the hots one. The main complaints about warpins were that they made allins to strong and that it removes defenders advantage.
The current warpin fixes neither of that.
it just makes protoss dependent on a warpprism while nerfing their overall mapcontrol through proxy pylons.
They should just revert to HotS imo.
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On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
how does it suck? it's now the same as in hots except offensive warp-ins are worse, which is what the majority of people wanted...
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On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ...
Thing is a lot of the changes have been effectively reverted indeed, but they left their little touch of useless inelegance (bastardized macro mechanics, sucky warpgate change) that makes LotV look even worse than HotS...
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On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ...
No reason to change things that are well designed.
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On October 10 2015 06:10 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... Thing is a lot of the changes have been effectively reverted indeed, but they left their little touch of useless inelegance (bastardized macro mechanics, sucky warpgate change) that makes LotV look even worse than HotS...
I agree, this is HoTs 2.0... like Bnet 2.0 ^^
New but worse on some aspects
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On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed.
Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game.
The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game.
You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army.
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On October 10 2015 06:08 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:03 CheddarToss wrote:On October 10 2015 05:52 Athenau wrote:
Mule was nerfed by 1-25/30 = .2 or 20%. That is, Mules now bring in 20% less income than before. But the impact on total income is much lower.
Chrono was nerfed by 1-1.15/1.25 = .08 or 8% where the 25% is the average chronoboost increases from one nexus since you're limited by energy regen (< 100% chronoboost uptime).
That is, things being chrono-ed by one nexus now produce at a rate 8% slower than before. The big change is that you can longer dump multiple nexus's worth of energy regen into one thing. In that case it's a 1 - 1.15/1.5 = .233 or 23.3% nerf. Your math is flawed, mate. 1-25/30 = 16,6%. Chrono reduction from 25% to 15% is 1-15/25 = 40%. Or compared to HotS chrono with multiple Nexi, in cases where you can chrono on Upgrade/Unit non-stop:1-15/50= 70%. Yep, a nerf of whopping 70%. That is why we see Protoss dying way more often to tech switches in LotV, than we do in HotS. Whoops, you're right, that should be 16.6%. But the rest of your math is wrong. 1-15/25 is a quantity that has no meaning. You care about the rate at which you produce chronoboosted things (which is when you used the time averaged 25% number, since multiple nexuses can be used to speed up multiple production facilities), or the duration it takes to finish something (like an upgrade, or a key unit), which is when you're actually dumping multiple nexuses worth of energy into one thing. You produce things 8% slower, and things take (1.5/1.15 - 1)*100 = 30% longer to complete. 70% is complete nonsense.
It isn't nonsense. That is by how much Chrono was nerfed, when you compare to the case, in which multiple Nexi are chronoing one thing (in HotS). I urge you to check your math again. Since Chrono is REDUCING build time, you can not add the Chrono time reduction to 1, you have to subtract. And when doing proper math (0.85/0.5 = 1.7 --> 70%) you see that things take 70% longer to complete, when you use the LotV -15% version of Chrono vs the -50% HotS version of Chrono (used non-stop).
Example:
Say you are making a hypothetical unit that takes 10 sec to build. With old Chrono it only takes 5sec. With new -15% Chrono it takes 8.5 sec. And by how much is 8.5 sec longer than 5 sec? 8.5/5 - 1 = 70%. Voila.
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So the cyclone is now faster than speedlings without creep?
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@cheddartoss:
Uhhh, no. Old chrono was a 50% rate increase. It wasn't a 50% decrease in duration
Unboosted: 10 seconds
Old Chrono: 6.67 seconds (10/1.5)
New Chrono: 8.69 seconds (10/1.15)
That's 30% slower not 70% slower.
For reference: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_Boost
In particular:
Located at the Nexus, this ability can be activated using 25 energy and is used to increase the production or research speed at the target building by 50%. This allows the building to do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds, so production/research will complete 10 seconds earlier.
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On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army.
My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better.
only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS")
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On October 10 2015 06:24 Ovid wrote:
So the cyclone is now faster than speedlings without creep?
No, they're using the new real-time numbers in the patch notes.
Cyclones are stim bio speed now (3.375). They were worker speed (2.81) before.
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On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ?
The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV
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On October 10 2015 06:25 Athenau wrote:@cheddartoss: Uhhh, no. Old chrono was a 50% rate increase. It wasn't a 50% decrease in duration Unboosted: 10 seconds Old Chrono: 6.67 seconds (10/1.5) New Chrono: 8.69 seconds (10/1.15) That's 30% slower not 70% slower. For reference: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_BoostIn particular: Show nested quote +Located at the Nexus, this ability can be activated using 25 energy and is used to increase the production or research speed at the target building by 50%. This allows the building to do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds, so production/research will complete 10 seconds earlier.
You are right.
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On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV
lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems.
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They could fix mule spam pretty easily any number of ways. Location based mining is one way, like they did for a patch (which would make terrans have to cycle their bases), or make it like spawn larva queuing is now. The next mule would get called down after the cooldown timer finishes, if you've preemptively told it to when you had extra mana built up. Ideally they would remove these things completely, but that's off the board to rush the release date.
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I`m okay with Cyclone, but still think it needs longer AA range than speed buff.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Cyclone movement speed increased to 4.72 from 3.94.
fuck
What is with people equating all the macro mechanics. They all play fundamentally different roles of different importance for each race. Making a direct comparison is really dumb.
Because chrono boost is a fun mechanic and mule is not at all. Nobody wants their race to be weak enough to need ridiculous mineral boost to keep 50/50 winrate or compete in later stages of the game - if we nerf one mechanic more, it should be the mule.
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On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS")
The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game.
During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems.
Carrier late game ?
Liberator behind mineral lines ?
....
Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv.
Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world.
We should expect a lot more from them.
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On October 10 2015 06:47 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS") The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game. During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems. Carrier late game ? Liberator behind mineral lines ? .... Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv. Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world. We should expect a lot more from them.
What really bothers me is that they looked to be on the right track for a long period of time, and then they just lost it. The warpgate change was bad, the macro mechanics change just ruined the end of the beta because it should have been tested at the beginning, not in the middle of the beta. They could have improved upon an already great game, but in the end all they created was a mess, and I'm not very optimistic that mess will magically sort out to give us a solid last iteration for our cherished game.
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On October 10 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:47 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS") The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game. During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems. Carrier late game ? Liberator behind mineral lines ? .... Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv. Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world. We should expect a lot more from them. What really bothers me is that they looked to be on the right track for a long period of time, and then they just lost it. The warpgate change was bad, the macro mechanics change just ruined the end of the beta because it should have been tested at the beginning, not in the middle of the beta. They could have improved upon an already great game, but in the end all they created was a mess, and I'm not very optimistic that mess will magically sort out to give us a solid last iteration for our cherished game.
History repeats. Do you remember when HotS beta began? they rodomontaded as if everything would be changed, but it was released nothing changed, except some additional units.
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On October 10 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:47 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS") The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game. During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems. Carrier late game ? Liberator behind mineral lines ? .... Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv. Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world. We should expect a lot more from them. What really bothers me is that they looked to be on the right track for a long period of time, and then they just lost it. The warpgate change was bad, the macro mechanics change just ruined the end of the beta because it should have been tested at the beginning, not in the middle of the beta. They could have improved upon an already great game, but in the end all they created was a mess, and I'm not very optimistic that mess will magically sort out to give us a solid last iteration for our cherished game.
I think they should have listen the community, maybe be inspired by some proposals, but not blindly follow some random proposals of the community and mix it with their ideas.
They were pushed very hard by the community to do big changes when it may have been better to simply polish the game.
Sadly they decided to "try" the macro mechanics removal but they didn't try it long enough to have relevant results because they didn't believe in this change. So they lost a lot of time for nothing.
I say that but i think the game was really better without injects/mules
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the cyclone speed is good, not super crazy, its slower than a hellion and speedlings can still catch it
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They going in the good way with these change, all seems clever and reasonnable and make a better game except for the cyclone who need another change instead speed.
I love macro mechanics, inject mule and chrono are needed and i think there all good with this patch the game is much more enjoyable the way it is
Just waiting for a good huge viper and ultra nerf to have a playable late game against Zerg and this will be fine
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On October 10 2015 06:59 Thouhastmail wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 06:47 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS") The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game. During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems. Carrier late game ? Liberator behind mineral lines ? .... Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv. Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world. We should expect a lot more from them. What really bothers me is that they looked to be on the right track for a long period of time, and then they just lost it. The warpgate change was bad, the macro mechanics change just ruined the end of the beta because it should have been tested at the beginning, not in the middle of the beta. They could have improved upon an already great game, but in the end all they created was a mess, and I'm not very optimistic that mess will magically sort out to give us a solid last iteration for our cherished game. History repeats. Do you remember when HotS beta began? they rodomontaded as if everything would be changed, but it was released nothing changed, except some additional units.
Supposedly things were going to be differnt this time. We were told this beta would be far longer than all the other betas. Yet in the end we are ~1 month within the length of Heart of the Swarm beta.
That, among many other things (such as their store page saying the game will be released by March 2016, the complete and sudden change of direction of the beta as soon as theier release date is announced, the release date being within days of BlizzCon) tells me it was never their true plan to release the game right now in this state.
Obviously something major was planned for BlizzCon and got scrapped, and then they filled it in by bumping up SC2 release.
Let's be honest anyway. Of all Blizzards games, SC is getting the short end of the stick right now. It's their least profitable franchise currently. Lowest player base of their current generation of games. Lowest amount of casuals playing it. The only thing SC2 has going for it is it's eSport popularity, but even that isn't what it used to be, and Blizzard is slowly redirecting their eSport marketing towards Heroes anyway...
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I would be interested in how similar LotV ends up being compared to HotS gameplay wise. It seems like it tried to be different and then a lot of stuff has been reverted to HotS or is considering being reverted back to HotS. At this point, I'm disappointed cause it feels like HotS with just more units being nerfed (besides the economy change).
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Why did they change the Warp Prism time AND the defensive warpin time. Just change the goddamn Warp Prism, there's no reason to nerf extra shit just because you can. Honestly with the power of drops the 2second warp in at home was really really fun, and not that OP.
It should be: 2 Second Defensive warpin, 5second Warp Prism, 16second pylon warpin. And shouldn't change the adept hp again. Why does blizzard always have to over do it.
No more whining about Protoss please, and it's time to look at the other races. Each race has significant gaps that need balancing. PvZ Currently Lurkers/Ultra(How exactly are you suppose to kill 8 armor ultralisks with no hardened shield?) and since WOL muta tech switches have punished protoss, force out Double Robo/Disruptor with 5 lurkers, while they're floundering around with that, swap to muta and laugh, what is the answer other than Mass-Air every game? Currently In PvT Protoss has no solid answer to Liberators. Tempests? rediculous counter. Ok let's make the anti-massive unit against the armored-mechanical makes sense to me? I don't think Liberator Tempest games are very fun.Overall it seems every race is getting pushed to air. Carriers may be OP, but it's also the only answer.
Terran kinda feels like it DOES have enough anti-air if they use all options, so I'm not sure if it needs more mech anti-air but I guess Blizzards trying to make something happen with the cyclone, strange buff.
Zerg air feels like how Protoss ground has to play but in the air, it's not so much a straight up fight as trying to get off that combowombo of spells to just destroy everything. I donno it does feel like Mass-Corruptor Viper, Infestor really does beat carriers but it's just the problem of execution, and Zerg can flip between air/ground at a whim so it's not as punishing. For Protoss and Terran it's a real committal.
But Robo REALLY needs some kind of anti-air. Otherwise adepts are also pretty much dead now. You need Blink stalkers because they shoot up, whether blinking on liberators or warding off mutas, stalkers all round just have better utility. I find myself making a few Adepts when my minerals are out of whack, but that's it, chargelots seem better as a mineral dump most of the time now. The only other time is to build 4 and load them in a warp prism. Byebye Core unit.
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Speedlings aren't the fastest unit anymore? that's messsed up
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On October 10 2015 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems.
LotV is taking risks, HotS almost didn't take many. And it turned out that the little risk they took still made for a balanced but boring and stale meta. I know this is arguable but HotS made me and many other players quit for a long time. LotV is taking a lot more risks (even though they could still take a lot more imho), and while it can create a lot more problems, it also has a lot more potential.
Blizzard needs to balance between pleasing the old crowd and bringing enough innovation to make it interesting. We live in different times now, 2008 is long gone and the way people play has changed, too.
Imho, they should do everything to shake up the game. More drastic changes, who cares if they're imbalanced. If you want balance so much, stay at HotS the next months. But sadly they already gave in to the "BALANCE!!!" crowd and stopped designing LotV.
So I hope they stay true to their word and do big changes even after release.
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On October 10 2015 08:09 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems. LotV is taking risks, HotS almost didn't take many. And it turned out that the little risk they took still made for a balanced but boring and stale meta. I know this is arguable but HotS made me and many other players quit for a long time. LotV is taking a lot more risks (even though they could still take a lot more imho), and while it can create a lot more problems, it also has a lot more potential. Blizzard needs to balance between pleasing the old crowd and bringing enough innovation to make it interesting. We live in different times now, 2008 is long gone and the way people play has changed, too. Imho, they should do everything to shake up the game. More drastic changes, who cares if they're imbalanced. If you want balance so much, stay at HotS the next months. But sadly they already gave in to the "BALANCE!!!" crowd and stopped designing LotV. So I hope they stay true to their word and do big changes even after release.
Problem is that if you ask me they took the worst of both worlds with those half-hearted revolutions. In the end, we get a game that will probably be plagued with balance problems for months and no really relevant change compared to HotS, while we could expect either a) a roughly balanced game or b) a wild and bold game. We get nothing.
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On October 10 2015 08:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 08:09 KeksX wrote:On October 10 2015 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems. LotV is taking risks, HotS almost didn't take many. And it turned out that the little risk they took still made for a balanced but boring and stale meta. I know this is arguable but HotS made me and many other players quit for a long time. LotV is taking a lot more risks (even though they could still take a lot more imho), and while it can create a lot more problems, it also has a lot more potential. Blizzard needs to balance between pleasing the old crowd and bringing enough innovation to make it interesting. We live in different times now, 2008 is long gone and the way people play has changed, too. Imho, they should do everything to shake up the game. More drastic changes, who cares if they're imbalanced. If you want balance so much, stay at HotS the next months. But sadly they already gave in to the "BALANCE!!!" crowd and stopped designing LotV. So I hope they stay true to their word and do big changes even after release. Problem is that if you ask me they took the worst of both worlds with those half-hearted revolutions. In the end, we get a game that will probably be plagued with balance problems for months and no really relevant change compared to HotS, while we could expect either a) a roughly balanced game or b) a wild and bold game. We get nothing.
Because they're trying to please a community that doesn't even know what it wants. People are split 50/50 on so many topics.
And then they have this damned early release date, too...
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On October 10 2015 08:05 dswarm wrote:
Speedlings aren't the fastest unit anymore? that's messsed up
in what world?
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On October 10 2015 08:09 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems. So I hope they stay true to their word and do big changes even after release.
Dont worry, they wont. Its the exact same thing they said when WoL and HoTS were both about to be released, "We'll patch the game!".
What we get at release is what will be here to stay, and blizzard would move onto their next project (whatever it maybe).
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On October 10 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:47 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army. My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better. only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS") The purpose of making an expansion is to add new things in the game. During the last month they are reverting many changes, lotv looks really the same as hots except that we have some major design problems. Carrier late game ? Liberator behind mineral lines ? .... Yes, I want new stuff and exciting things in LoTv. Blizzard is not a random new company, they have a lot of experience, a lot of money and probably some of the best developers in the world. We should expect a lot more from them. What really bothers me is that they looked to be on the right track for a long period of time, and then they just lost it. The warpgate change was bad, the macro mechanics change just ruined the end of the beta because it should have been tested at the beginning, not in the middle of the beta. They could have improved upon an already great game, but in the end all they created was a mess, and I'm not very optimistic that mess will magically sort out to give us a solid last iteration for our cherished game.
I don't know, I usually don't disagree with you too much, but I think it's a lot about what one expects of the expansion. My opinion is that you can surely take the very safe path you outline there. But you might just end up with the exact same metagame. If you don't do some fundamental changes you end up with similar play to HotS. That's not to say that HotS is bad, but LotV should be a new game. Like one of my personal gripes with HotS was that TvZ was basically the same matchup I had played for 1.5years in WoL already with muta/ling/bling for 15-20mins. And ZvZ was just a downgrade of WoL ZvZ. The infestor was broken in other matchups, but in ZvZ it turned out that its power was absolutely needed to hold against the mass roach or mass muta midgame plays that turned out to dominate HotS. And as a spectator, TvP macro games looked very similar with a few new fancy abilities and attacks, but it was the same old bio against Colossus+Templar game eventually.
I feel like I want something new, new opportunities and a new mental challenge besides "how do I stop the timing attack with the new unit". Blizzard created this awesome opportunity with the multiple expansion longterm SC2 model. And the changes you list as "bad" are some of the few ones I really care about. For me it's a pity they weren't more adventurous in this beta.
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FIX THE FUCKING LATE GAME MULE BULLSHIT.
Pls. It's EXCESSIVE.
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guess blizzard will keep on beating up the bushes around instead of removing the elephant from the room , the warhound reincarnation, version 2.0, known by the ingame unit name as The Adept
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why don't they just change drop mule to drop SCV? might as well
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Think the Mule mineral pr. trip they're looking for is ~23. They might've been too generous.
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slowly turning back into hots one patch at a time.
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Should have kept the double damage factor on Warp Prisms. It's kind of silily that you can warp in right on top of the opponents army with no punishment, other than possibly have your Warp Prism sniped -- but its not a huge deal I dont think.
Overall, a move in the right direction... Curious to see if this change somehow promotes more Cyclone usage.
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On October 10 2015 09:13 ejozl wrote:
Think the Mule mineral pr. trip they're looking for is ~23. They might've been too generous.
I think they just try to solve blatant balance problems by turning up the Terran income until they don't matter anymore.
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Oh, zerg still sucks, what a surprise!!!
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On October 10 2015 08:21 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 08:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 08:09 KeksX wrote:On October 10 2015 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems. LotV is taking risks, HotS almost didn't take many. And it turned out that the little risk they took still made for a balanced but boring and stale meta. I know this is arguable but HotS made me and many other players quit for a long time. LotV is taking a lot more risks (even though they could still take a lot more imho), and while it can create a lot more problems, it also has a lot more potential. Blizzard needs to balance between pleasing the old crowd and bringing enough innovation to make it interesting. We live in different times now, 2008 is long gone and the way people play has changed, too. Imho, they should do everything to shake up the game. More drastic changes, who cares if they're imbalanced. If you want balance so much, stay at HotS the next months. But sadly they already gave in to the "BALANCE!!!" crowd and stopped designing LotV. So I hope they stay true to their word and do big changes even after release. Problem is that if you ask me they took the worst of both worlds with those half-hearted revolutions. In the end, we get a game that will probably be plagued with balance problems for months and no really relevant change compared to HotS, while we could expect either a) a roughly balanced game or b) a wild and bold game. We get nothing. Because they're trying to please a community that doesn't even know what it wants. People are split 50/50 on so many topics. And then they have this damned early release date, too...
Peoples feedback should be taken in to consideration, but the bigger problem is that they do not even have clear goals with the game.
The designers of SC2 do not have a vision they are trying to build. They have ideas, they decide to try them, and then depending on how much people bitch they decide to keep them or not. It has nothing to do with accomplishing a vision. They are trying too hard to make an eSport rather than a fun game...
Feedback is meant to help determine if you are accomplishing your design goals correctly. Not determine the entire design of the damn game.
That's why people being split 50/50 is a problem. It causes a stalemate when the designers don't know wtf they are going for anymore...
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Lol. I can't believe people actually think it's good math to compare the macro mechanic percentage drops.
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Russian Federation66 Posts
why they change hp/shields of adepts, while problem is their "vs light" damage? Adepts 2-shot marines and any worker - thats a problem. Just reduce their damage to ~19 vs light (total) per shot. Maybe increase attack speed for same dps.
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just tried out the speed buff for cyclone...it helps but it`s still dies very quickly due to its HP and has poor damage output. Direct engagement are not a good idea, I dont see much use for them except maybe early game harass. Late game they die too quickly due to their short lock on range.
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That's great. MULE is almost as good as it is in HOTS. They're doing nothing to address how absolutely insane bio is in TvZ  . Only making it better...
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On October 10 2015 11:39 Qwyn wrote:That's great. MULE is almost as good as it is in HOTS. They're doing nothing to address how absolutely insane bio is in TvZ . Only making it better...
Bio was already very strong in tvz before this patch, its even stronger now. They just have more stuff
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Why can't they just simply increase the cooldown of warp-in in order to nerf it?
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On October 10 2015 08:56 HomeWorld wrote:
guess blizzard will keep on beating up the bushes around instead of removing the elephant from the room , the warhound reincarnation, version 2.0, known by the ingame unit name as The Adept
At least Adepts look cool.
Warhounds were ugly as hell.
But yeah, totally agree. Adepts are pretty much reskinned Warhounds
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On October 10 2015 10:10 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 08:21 KeksX wrote:On October 10 2015 08:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 08:09 KeksX wrote:On October 10 2015 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems. LotV is taking risks, HotS almost didn't take many. And it turned out that the little risk they took still made for a balanced but boring and stale meta. I know this is arguable but HotS made me and many other players quit for a long time. LotV is taking a lot more risks (even though they could still take a lot more imho), and while it can create a lot more problems, it also has a lot more potential. Blizzard needs to balance between pleasing the old crowd and bringing enough innovation to make it interesting. We live in different times now, 2008 is long gone and the way people play has changed, too. Imho, they should do everything to shake up the game. More drastic changes, who cares if they're imbalanced. If you want balance so much, stay at HotS the next months. But sadly they already gave in to the "BALANCE!!!" crowd and stopped designing LotV. So I hope they stay true to their word and do big changes even after release. Problem is that if you ask me they took the worst of both worlds with those half-hearted revolutions. In the end, we get a game that will probably be plagued with balance problems for months and no really relevant change compared to HotS, while we could expect either a) a roughly balanced game or b) a wild and bold game. We get nothing. Because they're trying to please a community that doesn't even know what it wants. People are split 50/50 on so many topics. And then they have this damned early release date, too... Peoples feedback should be taken in to consideration, but the bigger problem is that they do not even have clear goals with the game. The designers of SC2 do not have a vision they are trying to build. They have ideas, they decide to try them, and then depending on how much people bitch they decide to keep them or not. It has nothing to do with accomplishing a vision. They are trying too hard to make an eSport rather than a fun game... Feedback is meant to help determine if you are accomplishing your design goals correctly. Not determine the entire design of the damn game. That's why people being split 50/50 is a problem. It causes a stalemate when the designers don't know wtf they are going for anymore...
So true and you can tell this because the comments of what they intended lotv to be early in beta are now long gone. Simpler game with more engagements around the map and more action. Sounded good.
Ultimately the game is no different and will be the same HoTS garbage just with a few different units.
There is no goal or vision and they forgot to just make a really fun game and let the players take it from there.
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On October 10 2015 12:54 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 08:56 HomeWorld wrote:
guess blizzard will keep on beating up the bushes around instead of removing the elephant from the room , the warhound reincarnation, version 2.0, known by the ingame unit name as The Adept At least Adepts look cool. Warhounds were ugly as hell. But yeah, totally agree. Adepts are pretty much reskinned Warhounds
jesus they're not even close to being like the warhound, stop comparing those, it's ludicrous
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Maybe cyclone will get some use now.
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Don't be surprise or upset that Cyclone speed is too fast. Blizzard always make a big change, then make a minor/incremental fix afterwards. Wrap in times was a good example, before it was 2 s (that's super fast). After tested in Beta, they now lengthen it. Same with the zealot charge attack. First it was 35. Now it is 8.
That's probably what they will do with Cyclone. The most important point is to see whether anyone will use them in any matchups.
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While I see the rationale, I'm really sad to see 2s warpins go I'm not sure exactly why, but it was really fun and I really liked it. It was my favorite LOTV change. I had hoped they'd be able to balance it in some way other than revert 2s warpins
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Why not make the MULE walk out of the originating CC?
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I don't see why they didn't keep 2 seconds warp in with power pylons and nexus... and 5 seconds warpin with WP
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How many time we need to wait to have the parasitic bomb and the 8 ultra armur go out of this game ?
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On October 10 2015 04:39 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Hellion/Cyclone every matchup FTW? I will try to make it work. Kite for days, then Helbat for the finisher.
Wait until 2 cyclones morph into Thor and Liberator + Banshee morph into BC...
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So in the end of the day, as I predicted, Adepts back to their original stats......
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On October 10 2015 10:10 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 08:21 KeksX wrote:On October 10 2015 08:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 08:09 KeksX wrote:On October 10 2015 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 10 2015 06:34 chipmonklord17 wrote:On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ? The worst part about how little things are changing is that they've specifically said the game isn't in the best balance state but how balanced HotS is gives them hope that they'll get there in LotV lol, I hope they realise HotS was 100000 times better at release. Sure, things like hellbats were broken and some things like swarm hosts turned out to be abominations, but I had a lot of fun playing the game and it mostly felt reasonable. LotV on the other hand is just plagued with known and potential problems. LotV is taking risks, HotS almost didn't take many. And it turned out that the little risk they took still made for a balanced but boring and stale meta. I know this is arguable but HotS made me and many other players quit for a long time. LotV is taking a lot more risks (even though they could still take a lot more imho), and while it can create a lot more problems, it also has a lot more potential. Blizzard needs to balance between pleasing the old crowd and bringing enough innovation to make it interesting. We live in different times now, 2008 is long gone and the way people play has changed, too. Imho, they should do everything to shake up the game. More drastic changes, who cares if they're imbalanced. If you want balance so much, stay at HotS the next months. But sadly they already gave in to the "BALANCE!!!" crowd and stopped designing LotV. So I hope they stay true to their word and do big changes even after release. Problem is that if you ask me they took the worst of both worlds with those half-hearted revolutions. In the end, we get a game that will probably be plagued with balance problems for months and no really relevant change compared to HotS, while we could expect either a) a roughly balanced game or b) a wild and bold game. We get nothing. Because they're trying to please a community that doesn't even know what it wants. People are split 50/50 on so many topics. And then they have this damned early release date, too... Peoples feedback should be taken in to consideration, but the bigger problem is that they do not even have clear goals with the game. The designers of SC2 do not have a vision they are trying to build. They have ideas, they decide to try them, and then depending on how much people bitch they decide to keep them or not. It has nothing to do with accomplishing a vision. They are trying too hard to make an eSport rather than a fun game... Feedback is meant to help determine if you are accomplishing your design goals correctly. Not determine the entire design of the damn game. That's why people being split 50/50 is a problem. It causes a stalemate when the designers don't know wtf they are going for anymore...
Thats what I said long time ago. The vision is that the average game shouldn't take longer than 20 minutes, as probably some research resulted in potentially catching most ppl then, that it is somewhat accessible for casuals and in no way they wanted to just copy SC:BW. Thats it :p
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On October 10 2015 18:08 SC2Angora wrote:
How many time we need to wait to have the parasitic bomb and the 8 ultra armur go out of this game ?
Zerg isn't supposed to have such powerful units or skills. It's against the design of the race, which is quantity over quality - cheap units in large numbers. It should be mass lings, roaches or hydras against thor or BC, not MMMM against ultras.
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dont you worry, dont you worry zeeeerrrrg . . .blizzard will have a patch for you
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On October 10 2015 18:56 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 18:08 SC2Angora wrote:
How many time we need to wait to have the parasitic bomb and the 8 ultra armur go out of this game ? Zerg isn't supposed to have such powerful units or skills. It's against the design of the race, which is quantity over quality - cheap units in large numbers. It should be mass lings, roaches or hydras against thor or BC, not MMMM against ultras.
If that were the case then zerg should have more 1 supply units
But they dont
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On October 10 2015 18:56 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 18:08 SC2Angora wrote:
How many time we need to wait to have the parasitic bomb and the 8 ultra armur go out of this game ? Zerg isn't supposed to have such powerful units or skills. It's against the design of the race, which is quantity over quality - cheap units in large numbers. It should be mass lings, roaches or hydras against thor or BC, not MMMM against ultras.
Very true. They have almost reversed Zerg and Protoss because of the inject mechanic and warp in.
Inconsistent amounts of larva at any point in the game meant that Zerg now has too many expensive higher supply stronger units to offset that 10 minutes in you might have 30 larva or 3 depending if you hit injects, or if a queen or two gets killed. This is then why Zerg try to just bank up a ton because that's the only way to remax with the cost on units. It should be cheap units constantly flooding across the map. Zerg actually is the race that should have the mule to then make more macro hatches.
On the flip side toss should have the expensive strong units. But because of warp ins anywhere on the map they had to make their gateway units weak.
Even Terran players with bio and mines streaming across the map play more "zergy" than Zerg half the time. The inject mechanic which should have made Zerg more swarm like actually has the opposite effect.
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On October 10 2015 07:10 Nam_Pho_life wrote:
the cyclone speed is good, not super crazy, its slower than a hellion and speedlings can still catch it
The cyclone is now faster than speedlings off creep. Speedlings off creep: 4.7 Cyclone: 4.72
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On October 10 2015 20:43 Araneae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 07:10 Nam_Pho_life wrote:
the cyclone speed is good, not super crazy, its slower than a hellion and speedlings can still catch it The cyclone is now faster than speedlings off creep. Speedlings off creep: 4.7 Cyclone: 4.72
Oh wow, I imagined they would increase it to be almost as fast as the Hellion, so they could run around together as a harassment force.
Interceptor is still faster though, Carrier>Cyclone 
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On October 10 2015 20:43 Araneae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 07:10 Nam_Pho_life wrote:
the cyclone speed is good, not super crazy, its slower than a hellion and speedlings can still catch it The cyclone is now faster than speedlings off creep. Speedlings off creep: 4.7 Cyclone: 4.72
On October 10 2015 06:29 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:24 Ovid wrote:
So the cyclone is now faster than speedlings without creep? No, they're using the new real-time numbers in the patch notes. Cyclones are stim bio speed now (3.375). They were worker speed (2.81) before.
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Well i feel like 5seconds for a Warpprism is to drastic they should aim for 3-4 seconds.
As a Zerg i feel like Adepts are totally fine and the healthchange is unnecessary.
cyclones feel to weak vs the first arriving air units which i feel like they should be a counter against.
My suggestion for cyclones would be: instead of the current lock on give them an abillity that really cycles:
let them have an abillity that when activated increases their attackspeed by 20% per sec for 4 sec. to a total of 80% and after that it reduces their movement speed for 4 seconds with a 16 second cooldown. That allows them to be a situation based hit and run unit that can be really powerful or extremly weak depending on the situation and it increases their defensive power when behind a wall or defending a mineral line vs an oracle. You could argubly still make an upgrade to nurf and buff the early or lategame usage.
liberators shoot to fast and are to good in harrasment and lategame fights
mothership core strategys allow for abusive earlygame that nobody wants to watch, play or play against (like making 3 pylons at ur opponents ramp or early third and overcharge them)
and lurkers are simply to good vs protoss in early midgame (you can have like 10 lurkers when he has 2/3 disruptors and just push him regardless of the disrupters killing ur lurkers you have to many left over to kill all the ground army)
also i feel like ultralisks are slightly too good vs bio and to bad vs liberator counterplay
I personally feel like makromechanics are fine as they are. I still feel spammable MULE is to good in lategame while the other mechanics get worse over time. But thats not really an issue with the current state.
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On October 10 2015 05:29 owlman wrote:Show nested quote +So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before... Chrono is more 40% nerf cause HOTS chrono is 50 % increase for 20 sec and you got 25 energy in 40 sec. So it's a 25% average increase in HOTS to 15% LoTV. Minus less flexibility. i don't get balance team anyway those numbers seem so random ...
The numbers probably appear random to you, as you (and I, of course) don't have the experience and understanding of balancing SC2.
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ohhhh my god. The game really does play uncomfortably like hots after this patch >.<
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I still dont get how adepts work? how does it lock target? sometimes im attacking a unit already then moving away but it doesnt lock o.O
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defensive warpin is now slower than normal warpin in hots? in hots its 5seconds blizzard time, here its 5 seconds real time?
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I don't see the macro changes as an improvement in any of the 3 cases.
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On October 11 2015 03:02 Saggymidgetbooty6969 wrote:
defensive warpin is now slower than normal warpin in hots? in hots its 5seconds blizzard time, here its 5 seconds real time?
Yes they wanted to nerf warp-in in LOTV
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On October 11 2015 00:48 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:29 owlman wrote:So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before... Chrono is more 40% nerf cause HOTS chrono is 50 % increase for 20 sec and you got 25 energy in 40 sec. So it's a 25% average increase in HOTS to 15% LoTV. Minus less flexibility. i don't get balance team anyway those numbers seem so random ... The numbers probably appear random to you, as you (and I, of course) don't have the experience and understanding of balancing SC2.
Yeah, getting the numbers correctly is one of the things the balance team is really good at.
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On October 10 2015 05:13 brickrd wrote:
great i'm really looking forward to being kited by a unit with more speed and range than anything in my tech tree
Happens a lot to terrans :D
Where Zerglings can outran CARS (Hellions)
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On October 11 2015 06:46 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:13 brickrd wrote:
great i'm really looking forward to being kited by a unit with more speed and range than anything in my tech tree Happens a lot to terrans :D Where Zerglings can outran CARS (Hellions)
You show me a terran who loses all 6 hellions to lings and ill show you a terran player that cant mirco.
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On October 10 2015 20:41 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 18:56 TedCruz2016 wrote:On October 10 2015 18:08 SC2Angora wrote:
How many time we need to wait to have the parasitic bomb and the 8 ultra armur go out of this game ? Zerg isn't supposed to have such powerful units or skills. It's against the design of the race, which is quantity over quality - cheap units in large numbers. It should be mass lings, roaches or hydras against thor or BC, not MMMM against ultras. Very true. They have almost reversed Zerg and Protoss because of the inject mechanic and warp in.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I hate the warp-in. 5 seconds? Gigantic nerf imo.
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Yeah......tried to warn everybody about Cyclone + Liberator ZvT.
You kids have no idea how broken it was vs. how broken it's going to be.
There is not a single ground unit that can kill Cyclones in the Zerg arsenal unless you get off a fungal. You can't even go broodlord because of liberator + cyclone damage.
Corruptors won't even save you
.
Blizzard is just failing at this expansion. Ever wondered why Adepts were NEVER removed? They already released marketing material and pre-order skins. That unit isn't going anywhere either, no matter how poorly it was designed.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On October 11 2015 12:01 erazerr wrote:
I hate the warp-in. 5 seconds? Gigantic nerf imo.
Yea it's actually really slow on defense. The 2 second warp-in was noticably better than the WOL/HOTS 3.7 second warp-in.
now it's 5 seconds. I can understand that and even suggested it for the warp prism, but just warping into nexus sucks
playing against terran with nerfed chronoboost and constant 20% economy disadvantage, no early or midgame edge really sucks too. Adept has been seriously overnerfed (because of that one timing with the warp prism and warpgate, not the unit itself) - specifically losing that 40 health right from the start of the game. 40 health per adept damn
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On October 11 2015 13:55 Snooper23 wrote:
Yeah......tried to warn everybody about Cyclone + Liberator ZvT.
You kids have no idea how broken it was vs. how broken it's going to be.
There is not a single ground unit that can kill Cyclones in the Zerg arsenal unless you get off a fungal. You can't even go broodlord because of liberator + cyclone damage.
Corruptors won't even save you
.
Blizzard is just failing at this expansion. Ever wondered why Adepts were NEVER removed? They already released marketing material and pre-order skins. That unit isn't going anywhere either, no matter how poorly it was designed.
Kids? Wat. Who are you? O_O... The Cyclone change mainly affects TvP not TvZ, and I think the real problem is "Kids" like you posting balance whines, without completely understanding the game or playing at a high enough level to try to understand. Liberator + Cyclone are not imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, and neither is the Adept. Kiddo.
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On October 11 2015 13:55 Snooper23 wrote:
Blizzard is just failing at this expansion. Ever wondered why Adepts were NEVER removed? They already released marketing material and pre-order skins. That unit isn't going anywhere either, no matter how poorly it was designed.
Why should it be removed? It is one of the units with the most exciting design in SC2. Compared to boring units, like Roaches, Marauders, Cyclons, Chargelots, Immortals, Colossi, Corruptors, etc it has a brilliant design.
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I just hope we'll see some gateways not morphed into warpgates. It has worked for the other races just fine.
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I find myself struggling in pvz as of late, feels like protoss is too weak vs zerg with the adept that has been nerfed pretty hard lately, sentries are just so bad now I'm unsure how to hold anything
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I find myself struggling in pvz as of late
Same here. some early zerg agressions are really hard to hold... fortunately most of the z in the beta play HOTS type of game with 3 bases greedy build so i can rush to carriers like a greedy noob aswell.
But when they doing some nasty fast lurkers, ravagers or other shit like that it seems i'm always doomed :D
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yeah vs those mindless gasless 3 base it's still similar but 2 base agression openers are hard to deal with, might have to make like 6 gates vs 2 base or something
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Bring back scourge to deal with late game protoss and terran air. This would make for some great micro/kiting plus scourge hits are exciting.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On October 12 2015 11:54 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Bring back scourge to deal with late game protoss and terran air. This would make for some great micro/kiting plus scourge hits are exciting.
Viper is the best unit in the game for dealing with that stuff atm
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The nerfed warp in is just ridiculous. This, plus the adept nerf, the chrono nerf, plus the changes to photon overcharge and the colossi, makes PvT the biggest headache atm. Aside of all ins and timings, protoss was already having a tough time in this matchup. Now that they added these additional nerfs and reverted the mule nerf, it's just stupid. Even the fast third base builds aren't very good anymore cos of how trash the adept is. Terrans must really enjoy life right now, facing LotV protoss which is weaker against defending drops than HotS protoss, and isn't even strong in decent engagements anymore.
They seriously need to reconsider the warp gate nerf, possibly even the adept nerf. They've completely over-nerfed a race that wasn't even particularly strong to begin with overall, rather there were just certain things that were too strong. Chrono basically just doesn't do anything anymore, which would be alright if had they not reverted the mule and made terran economy just better than everyone elses. Terran doesn't even have to make liberators anymore, they can just play HotS style and win every game because their economy is better, and Protoss can't reasonably prepare against drops and defend against the army at the same time without any reliable AoE, or warp ins that don't take 400 hours.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Now that they added these additional nerfs and reverted the mule nerf, it's just stupid
Terran units (stim bio, liberator) are already very strong when talking cost for cost.
it's just silly atm. Uphill battle both ways in the snow from the 2 minute mark to the end of the game simply because of the money mismatch, all unit balance aside.
Terran can just build workers, expand casually and maintain 20% income lead over a protoss who's chronoing nexus and spamming probes without losing any the whole game. They can bank mules and drop them all on a base that's new or otherwise unsecurable.
The mechanic overall just adds a ton of unneccesary power in a way that's really stupid and unfun for both sides IMO - it really sucks to play against for lots of reasons; looking from the terran POV, who wants to take a race that has a win rate too high and then go nerf the crap out of marines, stimpack, liberators etc so that terran goes 50/50 even though they have way more money at every stage of the game?
Economy issues are higher in the tree than unit issues, unit balance is meaningless without taking economy into account
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On October 12 2015 13:14 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Now that they added these additional nerfs and reverted the mule nerf, it's just stupid Terran units (stim bio, liberator) are already very strong when talking cost for cost. it's just silly atm. Uphill battle both ways in the snow from the 2 minute mark to the end of the game simply because of the money mismatch, all unit balance aside. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KWqCiLv.png) This is not ok at all and i can't believe they want mules to be so important and powerful for terran income while demonising inject and chrono
And that's the problem with anecdotal evidence, never mind that it's at a sub-competitive level.
I just watched Avilo get out-economied by 3 Zergs in a row, one of those was a game where the Zerg built 9 Roaches on 2 bases and did zero damage, one was a bio game, and the last was a game where Avilo went for a fast third CC built on location. He was completely behind economically in the first two games, and roughly even in the third. How do we reconcile your observations of the economy with those?
The only high level players streaming LotV are Polt and ForGG. I'm honestly not sure why the entire community isn't tripping over itself to catch their games, because those games offer the only remotely meaningful observations to be made about the state of balance in LotV.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
I just watched Avilo get out-economied by 3 Zergs in a row
How do we reconcile your observations of the economy with those?
We don't, since i'm commenting on TvP
So Huk and other streams are not meaningful to you? Even right now Neeblet is playing @ GM with Naniwa, Fayth and others in chat discussing TvP.
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On October 12 2015 13:51 Cyro wrote:We don't, since i'm commenting on TvP
I apologize. I must have conflated your post with the MMM Mule thread which is mostly about TvZ. I should have paid closer attention.
So Huk and other streams are not meaningful to you? Even right now Neeblet is playing @ GM with Naniwa, Fayth and others in chat discussing TvP.
Eh. They're at an ambiguously meaningful level. Obviously a lot of the issues they struggle with will also come up at the highest level of play... but at the same time, some won't. Avilo is a GM Terran, and he's been making mech work in TvP. Is that actually relevant to Code S level balance? Obviously HuK is a step above Avilo, but again... very ambiguous.
I'd rather start with top top top P play and then work our way down to Huk (and lower), which will clearly demonstrate which issues are so fundamental that they pervade every level of play, as opposed to starting with the low and... hoping, basically, that those issues are relevant and faithfully represented.
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The nerfs to MULEs and to warp-ins were very necessary
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On October 11 2015 13:55 Snooper23 wrote:
Yeah......tried to warn everybody about Cyclone + Liberator ZvT.
You kids have no idea how broken it was vs. how broken it's going to be.
There is not a single ground unit that can kill Cyclones in the Zerg arsenal unless you get off a fungal. You can't even go broodlord because of liberator + cyclone damage.
Corruptors won't even save you
.
Blizzard is just failing at this expansion. Ever wondered why Adepts were NEVER removed? They already released marketing material and pre-order skins. That unit isn't going anywhere either, no matter how poorly it was designed.
Uh no? Liberator+Cyclone is not only 3 supply each but 150/150. There is no way you are gonna get that rolling. I play mech myself and cyclone+liberator is not the ideal composition- Tank liberator Hellbat is way better than hellion/ cyclone+liberator is and will be.
Right now, cyclone doesn't even do that AA job well while it does the force engagement job decently. You have no idea what you are talking about.
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On October 12 2015 14:28 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 13:51 Cyro wrote:I just watched Avilo get out-economied by 3 Zergs in a row How do we reconcile your observations of the economy with those? We don't, since i'm commenting on TvP I apologize. I must have conflated your post with the MMM Mule thread which is mostly about TvZ. I should have paid closer attention. Show nested quote +So Huk and other streams are not meaningful to you? Even right now Neeblet is playing @ GM with Naniwa, Fayth and others in chat discussing TvP. Eh. They're at an ambiguously meaningful level. Obviously a lot of the issues they struggle with will also come up at the highest level of play... but at the same time, some won't. Avilo is a GM Terran, and he's been making mech work in TvP. Is that actually relevant to Code S level balance? Obviously HuK is a step above Avilo, but again... very ambiguous. I'd rather start with top top top P play and then work our way down to Huk (and lower), which will clearly demonstrate which issues are so fundamental that they pervade every level of play, as opposed to starting with the low and... hoping, basically, that those issues are relevant and faithfully represented.
honestly I think you should take most of what Avilo says with a grain of salt, I mean avilo plays sooooooo passively that his view of balance in some situation is pretty off, not saying he's always wrong or anything like that but yeah I'd look at more terrans opinion than that
for what it's worth at the moment I do feel that P>T, I don't have the biggest sample size PvT wise but it feels by far the easiest match up of all 3 for me, and I barely make any adept
also I don't know if many terrans have tried it but I'm just throwing it out there, I think cyclones/widowmines could be a possibility, and add some other units depending on what you see but stick to mainly cyclones and mines, I feel it might be worth testing out
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On October 12 2015 18:05 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 14:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 12 2015 13:51 Cyro wrote:I just watched Avilo get out-economied by 3 Zergs in a row How do we reconcile your observations of the economy with those? We don't, since i'm commenting on TvP I apologize. I must have conflated your post with the MMM Mule thread which is mostly about TvZ. I should have paid closer attention. So Huk and other streams are not meaningful to you? Even right now Neeblet is playing @ GM with Naniwa, Fayth and others in chat discussing TvP. Eh. They're at an ambiguously meaningful level. Obviously a lot of the issues they struggle with will also come up at the highest level of play... but at the same time, some won't. Avilo is a GM Terran, and he's been making mech work in TvP. Is that actually relevant to Code S level balance? Obviously HuK is a step above Avilo, but again... very ambiguous. I'd rather start with top top top P play and then work our way down to Huk (and lower), which will clearly demonstrate which issues are so fundamental that they pervade every level of play, as opposed to starting with the low and... hoping, basically, that those issues are relevant and faithfully represented. honestly I think you should take most of what Avilo says with a grain of salt, I mean avilo plays sooooooo passively that his view of balance in some situation is pretty off, not saying he's always wrong or anything like that but yeah I'd look at more terrans opinion than that for what it's worth at the moment I do feel that P>T, I don't have the biggest sample size PvT wise but it feels by far the easiest match up of all 3 for me, and I barely make any adept also I don't know if many terrans have tried it but I'm just throwing it out there, I think cyclones/widowmines could be a possibility, and add some other units depending on what you see but stick to mainly cyclones and mines, I feel it might be worth testing out
Indeed I don't pay much attention to his balance complaints. He's on a level below foreign pros and like I said foreign pros' experience is only partly representative of competitive SC, so his is even less so.
That's why I said that right now I think the only streamers providing consistently meaningful data are Polt and ForGG, and people should be focusing on their games as much as possible.
In fairness to Avilo, he's been talking more about game design than balance of late, and I've found most of his reasoning pretty sound. For example, he sees Parasitic Bomb as fundamemtally problematic because it hard counters Vikings which are needed to counter Brood Lords. Even if Brood Lords never become relevant in competitive TvZ and so this never ever becomes a balance issue, we can still identify the poor foundation in place, THREATENING imbalance.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 10 2015 18:04 ROOTFayth wrote:
I don't see why they didn't keep 2 seconds warp in with power pylons and nexus... and 5 seconds warpin with WP
does seem like a really obvious change, yes
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for what it's worth at the moment I do feel that P>T, I don't have the biggest sample size PvT wise but it feels by far the easiest match up of all 3 for me, and I barely make any adept
How do you play the match-up? can you share a replay or something. i struggle in PvT since the recent adept nerf cos i was used to mass adept mid game ( with imo / void / templar support).
Funny story: last PvT i did was vs a terran only massing marines the whole game with few ghosts and medivacs.
So i played mass adept like i did in the past and he crushed me in a direct engagement with 50 marines 6 medivac 2 ghost (50 supply worth of fighting units) vs 40 adepts 2 imo and few voids( 30 more supply or so). got EMP'ed but only half of my army.
I think the last adept nerf was too much they hardly counter marine anymore in the midgame and they are bad as shit vs speedlings.
Versus anything non light they are trash ofc . They're definitely a bad fighting unit outside of some all-in on 2 bases and killing workers.
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Adept might as well be removed from the game at this point. It's no longer a core gateway unit that fills a role the other gateway units couldn't fill. What the community requested was a gateway unit that can trade evenly in smaller numbers vs enemies (something that stalkers and zealots are unable to do). That's no longer the case.
Overall this is the first time when I honestly think the design team has no clue. They're not improving the game this expansion (still a complete lack of necessary UI features, and game balance), and considering we're at an all time low in interest towards SC2 tournaments and streamers some improvements are needed.
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I hoped so very much, that Blizz would take the opportunity to completly change the warpin mechanic for protoss gateways.
In my opinion (and i know many others agree), at the current state it is just a clusterfuck, and all the patches are now exactly what the name suggests, they "patch" an inherently broken thing, not fix it.
Since Wings of Liberty it was obvious that something is wrong with the general concept of warpgates. Why would you include a switchable tech that is absolutely mandatory in 99% of protoss games (aside from cannon rushes and proxy 2gates).
Since wings of liberty warp-gate upgrade is simply a no-brainer, you just get it because it is better. There was so much potential for the idea that warp-gate upgrade unlocks the warp-in tech, but also has some downsides. Most obviously the cooldown between warpins should be longer than the build time from Gateways.
I can very clearly remember my first games in WoL Beta back in the day, when my friend and i first played around with all the new stuff, and he was like "Oh look, i can warp in units everywhere on the map." and i was like "that is insane, how much longer is the cooldown for a unit compared to a build in the gateway?" and he goes: "I think it is even shorter, that can't be correct, right?!" It made no sense back then and it still does not...
Protoss players should have to THINK STRATEGICALLY how many of their Gateways they want to have as Warpgates.
Maybe only a couple for harass defense to quickly warp in some stalker in a mineral line?
Or when protoss attacks make all Gateways to Warpgates to reinforce at the frontline?
Oh protoss is behind and pushed back to defense, make all Warpgates back to Gatways to produce more units faster.
Btw.: i am well aware of the fact, that at the time WoL was released the reasoning of blizz was, that the downside of the Warpgate was "not beeing able to queue" your unit buildings, therefore they claimed it is harder to macro with warpgates.
Which of course is completly unrelevant to every player above gold league...
At the current state, i would bet that the "Morph Warpgate back to Gateway"-Button is the least pressed button in the entire game, because it makes absolutely no sense. And that is a shame.
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On October 12 2015 20:26 reapsen wrote:
I hoped so very much, that Blizz would take the opportunity to completly change the warpin mechanic for protoss gateways.
In my opinion (and i know many others agree), at the current state it is just a clusterfuck, and all the patches are now exactly what the name suggests, they "patch" an inherently broken thing, not fix it.
Since Wings of Liberty it was obvious that something is wrong with the general concept of warpgates. Why would you include a switchable tech that is absolutely mandatory in 99% of protoss games (aside from cannon rushes and proxy 2gates).
Since wings of liberty warp-gate upgrade is simply a no-brainer, you just get it because it is better. There was so much potential for the idea that warp-gate upgrade unlocks the warp-in tech, but also has some downsides. Most obviously the cooldown between warpins should be longer than the build time from Gateways.
I can very clearly remember my first games in WoL Beta back in the day, when my friend and i first played around with all the new stuff, and he was like "Oh look, i can warp in units everywhere on the map." and i was like "that is insane, how much longer is the cooldown for a unit compared to a build in the gateway?" and he goes: "I think it is even shorter, that can't be correct, right?!" It made no sense back then and it still does not...
Protoss players should have to THINK STRATEGICALLY how many of their Gateways they want to have as Warpgates.
Maybe only a couple for harass defense to quickly warp in some stalker in a mineral line?
Or when protoss attacks make all Gateways to Warpgates to reinforce at the frontline?
Oh protoss is behind and pushed back to defense, make all Warpgates back to Gatways to produce more units faster.
Btw.: i am well aware of the fact, that at the time WoL was released the reasoning of blizz was, that the downside of the Warpgate was "not beeing able to queue" your unit buildings, therefore they claimed it is harder to macro with warpgates.
Which of course is completly unrelevant to every player above gold league...
At the current state, i would bet that the "Morph Warpgate back to Gateway"-Button is the least pressed button in the entire game, because it makes absolutely no sense. And that is a shame.
I love your post man, if only Blizz actually listened to the community. Mad man david is gonna make each warpin take 16 seconds, except for the first one after you morphed your gateways, so there is finally a reason to press that button. Not a Strategic descision, just a reason. And then Blizz will say, "We heard ya'll", morph back button should be more usefull now.
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Yeah.. i mean how fucking cool would it be, to see protoss players getting ready for an attack and then morph all their gateways to warpgates with that cool morphing sound effect and all the casters go nuts like "ooh shit son, this attack is about get fucking real".
Or a protoss players builds some gateways in an area that is likely to get scanned and the terran player is like: "ah look, he has gateways, this fucker wants to defend or expand" but in reality he has like 6 more but in warpgate mode and bam goes all out attack.
In my opinion that would be WAY more enjoyable than just:
1. Scout
2. Count Warpgates and Bases
3. If Warpgate > 6 and Bases < 3 then DEFEND YOUR ASS LIKE CRAZY, HERPDY DERP
4. Game ends 3 Minutes later no matter what.
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Two things this game badly needs are:
1) Massive highground advantage. If I were Blizz, I would nerf any kind of damage (yes, even spells) from low to highground by 1/3.
2) A drastic change to the clumping behaviour of units. Instead of "natural clumping", units should leave some space between them and you should have to invest APM to clump them.
The first change negates the "steamrolle" syndrome, which means that games end too quickly after a single botched battle, and the utter lack of importance of positioning in SC2 compared to BW.
The second change should reduce the "terrible, terrible damage" syndrome, which has plagued this game from the beginning.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Eh. They're at an ambiguously meaningful level.
HuK and MC won the only meaningful LOTV tournament so far and you consider terran streamers far superior players
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On October 12 2015 19:50 owlman wrote:Show nested quote +for what it's worth at the moment I do feel that P>T, I don't have the biggest sample size PvT wise but it feels by far the easiest match up of all 3 for me, and I barely make any adept
How do you play the match-up? can you share a replay or something. i struggle in PvT since the recent adept nerf cos i was used to mass adept mid game ( with imo / void / templar support). Funny story: last PvT i did was vs a terran only massing marines the whole game with few ghosts and medivacs. So i played mass adept like i did in the past and he crushed me in a direct engagement with 50 marines 6 medivac 2 ghost (50 supply worth of fighting units) vs 40 adepts 2 imo and few voids( 30 more supply or so). got EMP'ed but only half of my army. I think the last adept nerf was too much they hardly counter marine anymore in the midgame and they are bad as shit vs speedlings. Versus anything non light they are trash ofc . They're definitely a bad fighting unit outside of some all-in on 2 bases and killing workers.
I just play pretty safe, I make 1 adept and then no more, just stalkers, quick blink, few obs, then robo bay, start making disruptors and get 3rd, 2nd robo and just pump disruptors and stalkers, you can trade very well against bio/libs/mines or anything really assuming you fire 1 ball of disruptor at a time, I usually manage to pick off some liberators here and there with the blink stalkers without losing anything while I shoot disruptor balls, and during all that I make 3 stargate and start pumping carriers, warp prism roaming around to harass while you do that is pretty good too
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Thank your for your answers
I make 3 stargate and start pumping carriers
In my experience carriers were a bad choice vs good terran playing bio (mostly marine) + mass liberator. Do you agree?
In that situation i would probably 3Sg + tempest
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The buff to the MULE broke TvZ, its way to powerfull in early game.
Zerg needs 4 larva if this stays.
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On October 13 2015 03:36 Daizer wrote:
The buff to the MULE broke TvZ, its way to powerfull in early game.
Zerg needs 4 larva if this stays.
Sure give zerg a way to go easily on their OP T3 with 8 armor ultra and Viper Op versatility especially parasitc bomb who just crush Terran Bio and Mech.
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On October 13 2015 02:28 Cyro wrote:HuK and MC won the only meaningful LOTV tournament so far and you consider terran streamers far superior players
HuK and MC are both incredibly awesome players, with MC being as top tier as you can be, really. Maybe not winning Code S anymore, but still, has experience as being one of the all-time Protoss greats. That being said, they won the biggest LotV tournament during some pretty ridiculously imbalanced patches. Certainly you must concede this, right?
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On October 13 2015 04:39 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:28 Cyro wrote:Eh. They're at an ambiguously meaningful level. HuK and MC won the only meaningful LOTV tournament so far and you consider terran streamers far superior players HuK and MC are both incredibly awesome players, with MC being as top tier as you can be, really. Maybe not winning Code S anymore, but still, has experience as being one of the all-time Protoss greats. That being said, they won the biggest LotV tournament during some pretty ridiculously imbalanced patches. Certainly you must concede this, right?
The balance hasn't improved, though. It's flipped around a lot and could even be worse overall.
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On October 13 2015 02:28 Cyro wrote:HuK and MC won the only meaningful LOTV tournament so far and you consider terran streamers far superior players
I don't consider Terran streamers far superior players. Avilo is far worse than HuK. I consider Polt and ForGG far superior to HuK and MC.
LotV, like HotS before it, will be balanced around Code S and SSL. Anyone who can not be consistently relevant in the Code S conversation is not directly relevant to balance conversations. It's as simple as that.
HuK and MC winning a tournament during a beta, while abusing units that were so OP that they've been nerfed twice in a row since then, while Bomber and MMA were basically trying to play HotS, is the zenith (or would it be the nadir?) of meaningless results, except insofar as it shows that the Adept was so broken, very mediocre players could beat very good players with it.
If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG. No "I got beat on ladder today" from any race, no "foreign Race X isn't winning with strategy Y."
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG
If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far
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On October 13 2015 08:01 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far
First of all, they play against plenty of Korean pros. I've seen Polt play Zest twice and Curious once, and last night ForGG played Armani, a barcode, and Vibe (not Korean, but still more relevant than Vibe vs. random GM). And I haven't watched that much of their streams, I'm sure they've played tons more.
Second, you seriously overestimate the effects of POV. We see every game they stream live. We see all of their wins and all of their losses, uncensored and unabridged. What difference does POV make if every game ends in an Adept push or a Liberator rush? I expect POV will have more impact once the game is way closer to being balanced and potential buffs and nerfs are very nuanced.
Our alternatives for gauging balance shouldn't be between using only Polt & ForGG or using all streamers, our alternatives should be using Polt & ForGG or using no one at all until equally skilled Zerg and Protoss show up.
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On October 13 2015 03:14 owlman wrote:Thank your for your answers In my experience carriers were a bad choice vs good terran playing bio (mostly marine) + mass liberator. Do you agree? In that situation i would probably 3Sg + tempest
I make carriers because it's much higher dps, then I add some tempests, but marines arent very scary when you have disruptors
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I make carriers because it's much higher dps, then I add some tempests, but marines arent very scary when you have disruptors
i Don't use disruptors i don't like the "all or nothing" kind of theme of the unit.
The scary thing is not marine, it's liberator one shotting all your interceptors in less than 2sec ( it happens all the time at 12 + liberators)
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disruptor is the reason that I don't lose any pvt lol, it's really not all or nothing, you just shoot 1 ball at a time so you're never on "global cooldown" terran can never truly engage you and you just poke non stop
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On October 10 2015 20:23 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 18:56 TedCruz2016 wrote:On October 10 2015 18:08 SC2Angora wrote:
How many time we need to wait to have the parasitic bomb and the 8 ultra armur go out of this game ? Zerg isn't supposed to have such powerful units or skills. It's against the design of the race, which is quantity over quality - cheap units in large numbers. It should be mass lings, roaches or hydras against thor or BC, not MMMM against ultras. If that were the case then zerg should have more 1 supply units But they dont
Well, for the record, roach used to be 1 supply, and mass roaches was widely abused in mid and late game. Although I believe both T and P can handle that if roach was a 1 supply unit and remained its attack range of 3 and relatively low speed of burrow-movement, no way can it stop a match of mass roaches vs mass roaches in ZvZ.
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On October 13 2015 08:21 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 08:01 Cyro wrote:If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far First of all, they play against plenty of Korean pros. I've seen Polt play Zest twice and Curious once, and last night ForGG played Armani, a barcode, and Vibe (not Korean, but still more relevant than Vibe vs. random GM). And I haven't watched that much of their streams, I'm sure they've played tons more. Second, you seriously overestimate the effects of POV. We see every game they stream live. We see all of their wins and all of their losses, uncensored and unabridged. What difference does POV make if every game ends in an Adept push or a Liberator rush? I expect POV will have more impact once the game is way closer to being balanced and potential buffs and nerfs are very nuanced. Our alternatives for gauging balance shouldn't be between using only Polt & ForGG or using all streamers, our alternatives should be using Polt & ForGG or using no one at all until equally skilled Zerg and Protoss show up.
Tournaments are better at gauging things than ladder. On ladder a pros aim is not necessarily to win, but to learn, and with the game being as new as LotV that adds extra confusion to the game. Also the person Polt played wasn't Zest, he has to prepare for Blizzcon...
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On October 13 2015 16:54 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 08:21 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 13 2015 08:01 Cyro wrote:If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far First of all, they play against plenty of Korean pros. I've seen Polt play Zest twice and Curious once, and last night ForGG played Armani, a barcode, and Vibe (not Korean, but still more relevant than Vibe vs. random GM). And I haven't watched that much of their streams, I'm sure they've played tons more. Second, you seriously overestimate the effects of POV. We see every game they stream live. We see all of their wins and all of their losses, uncensored and unabridged. What difference does POV make if every game ends in an Adept push or a Liberator rush? I expect POV will have more impact once the game is way closer to being balanced and potential buffs and nerfs are very nuanced. Our alternatives for gauging balance shouldn't be between using only Polt & ForGG or using all streamers, our alternatives should be using Polt & ForGG or using no one at all until equally skilled Zerg and Protoss show up. Tournaments are better at gauging things than ladder. On ladder a pros aim is not necessarily to win, but to learn, and with the game being as new as LotV that adds extra confusion to the game.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes, tournament data is more relevant, but should Blizzard not balance the beta at all until the game comes out and the first season of Code S concludes?
Also the person Polt played wasn't Zest, he has to prepare for Blizzcon...
As opposed to Polt, who does not have to prepare for Blizzcon? Lol.
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Frankly I think Polt won't win a game at Blizzcon
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On October 13 2015 08:21 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 08:01 Cyro wrote:If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far Our alternatives for gauging balance shouldn't be between using only Polt & ForGG or using all streamers, our alternatives should be using Polt & ForGG or using no one at all until equally skilled Zerg and Protoss show up.
ForGG right now is terrible on LoTv.
He is a very good mechanical player but strategically he is terrible, on a game not completly figured out he is just bad.
I didn't see Polt play, i think we don't play on the same timezone so it doesn't help. Since he will play for Blizzcon i think he may have not played many games on LoTv yet...
My point is the best players on WoL/HoTs are not necessary the best players in LoTv beta. There are a few unknown european protoss players that are, at this moment, a lot better than Naniwa for example.
So you should not have an opinion on the balance of the game only by watching those guys. You can, but it is irrelevant.
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Please people stop taking one game you played as relevant for balance. I feel most people doesn't have the mind to think where they fucked up or how they could manage/micro their units better. Many are judging a unit after using it less than 2-3 times.
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On October 13 2015 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:28 Cyro wrote:Eh. They're at an ambiguously meaningful level. HuK and MC won the only meaningful LOTV tournament so far and you consider terran streamers far superior players LotV, like HotS before it, will be balanced around Code S and SSL. Anyone who can not be consistently relevant in the Code S conversation is not directly relevant to balance conversations. It's as simple as that. [...] If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG. No "I got beat on ladder today" from any race, no "foreign Race X isn't winning with strategy Y."
This is true for the time period after the game has been officially released and sanctioned for major tournament play. But during the beta; balance experience, player feedback, as well as in-game benchmarking data must be used to balance the game. There is no feasible way around this.
If Blizzard is even half as sophisticated as they should be, they have extremely detailed and comprehensive in-game analytics they use to drill-down into the interactions. Filters, segments, trends ... These are tools the general community do not (and cannot) really have. And that's fine. So we have to say things like, "holy shit, no matter what I do I can't handle [THIS PLAY]." Or, "I can't lose when I do [THIS PLAY]."
CODE S
I agree that the game should be balanced for the absolute highest levels of play, but there is a humongous and unavoidable variable that will prevent theoretical "perfect balance": individual skill. This will always obfuscate the data.
Take professional tennis for example--because it's the other sport I'm the most familiar with. A player like Novak Djokovic in 2015 is utterly dominant. Basically, he doesn't lose. 93% winrate. Does that mean his two-handed backhand, his shoes, his Head racquet, his strings, his diet plant--does that mean these things are OP? They're all within the rules of the game. Everyone else can use them. But nobody can use them at his level. Hard court, clay, grass, right-handed or left-handed opponent, wind, heat, cold, altitude; it doesn't matter. He will crush you.
I know a lot of you understand this concept, but there are certainly some who don't, or haven't thought about it. If the Novak Djokovic of Starcraft 2 chooses Zerg, then everything he does is going to look wildly OP. So, at the highest levels of Code S, you're bound to have Djokovic's running around crushing everyone's face, and if the goal is some arbitrary requirement that winrates need to be 33% across the three races, your'e going to have unjustified nerfs and buffs all over the place.
Basically, an asymmetrical game--almost by definition--played by humans, cannot be properly balanced, short of some mathematical algorithm that describes balance. *shrugs* Sorry. Feeling a little philosophical this morning.
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why they can't simply buff the siege tank instead of adding uninteresting unit like the cyclone? another a-move trash
they added the liberator which is a very new and cool units, it's so hard blizzard?
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they still haven't fixed the fucking widow mine
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Also, RIP Thor's back guns. 4 guns of uselessness. My dream would be a new attack animation, change up the back guns to be flak cannons that fire in a ripple of 4 and replace the stupid anti-air missiles.
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Pretty funny how even though this is a Protoss expansion, Protoss will be the weakest race when this game comes out.
Once again, Terran is granted their OP mules while Zerg's larva inject and Protoss Chrono gets removed/nerfed.
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On October 13 2015 17:03 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 16:54 ZAiNs wrote:On October 13 2015 08:21 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 13 2015 08:01 Cyro wrote:If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far First of all, they play against plenty of Korean pros. I've seen Polt play Zest twice and Curious once, and last night ForGG played Armani, a barcode, and Vibe (not Korean, but still more relevant than Vibe vs. random GM). And I haven't watched that much of their streams, I'm sure they've played tons more. Second, you seriously overestimate the effects of POV. We see every game they stream live. We see all of their wins and all of their losses, uncensored and unabridged. What difference does POV make if every game ends in an Adept push or a Liberator rush? I expect POV will have more impact once the game is way closer to being balanced and potential buffs and nerfs are very nuanced. Our alternatives for gauging balance shouldn't be between using only Polt & ForGG or using all streamers, our alternatives should be using Polt & ForGG or using no one at all until equally skilled Zerg and Protoss show up. Tournaments are better at gauging things than ladder. On ladder a pros aim is not necessarily to win, but to learn, and with the game being as new as LotV that adds extra confusion to the game. I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes, tournament data is more relevant, but should Blizzard not balance the beta at all until the game comes out and the first season of Code S concludes? As opposed to Polt, who does not have to prepare for Blizzcon? Lol.
By tournament data I meant the shit ton of weekly cups that have players like Solar, Reality, Patience, Armani, etc playing in them, as well as some of the foreigners who are doing the best right now like Neeb and Bly. Much more meaningful than Polt's ladder games.
Also, Zest can actually win Blizzcon (and 10k at KungFuCup), even if he wanted to waste time playing LotV, KT wouldn't let him. Polt has a 30% winrate this year vs Koreans (and mostly not even Kespa ones) and in the first/second rounds will have to play players with around 70%+ PvT winrates vs Koreans this year. Additionally, Polt, not living in a Kespa team house, has nobody to practice HotS with either. That's why Polt is playing LotV.
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Is the 170 damage Ghost Snipe even still in? Can't find this info anywhere.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On October 14 2015 18:34 ciox wrote:
Is the 170 damage Ghost Snipe even still in? Can't find this info anywhere.
Yea and they buffed it to make it cast faster. It oneshots adepts now
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EPT
![[image loading]](https://images.rapgenius.com/75a6e4635d26603d64b9675c00756014.500x206x21.gif)
