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On October 13 2015 02:28 Cyro wrote:HuK and MC won the only meaningful LOTV tournament so far and you consider terran streamers far superior players
HuK and MC are both incredibly awesome players, with MC being as top tier as you can be, really. Maybe not winning Code S anymore, but still, has experience as being one of the all-time Protoss greats. That being said, they won the biggest LotV tournament during some pretty ridiculously imbalanced patches. Certainly you must concede this, right?
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On October 13 2015 04:39 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:28 Cyro wrote:Eh. They're at an ambiguously meaningful level. HuK and MC won the only meaningful LOTV tournament so far and you consider terran streamers far superior players HuK and MC are both incredibly awesome players, with MC being as top tier as you can be, really. Maybe not winning Code S anymore, but still, has experience as being one of the all-time Protoss greats. That being said, they won the biggest LotV tournament during some pretty ridiculously imbalanced patches. Certainly you must concede this, right?
The balance hasn't improved, though. It's flipped around a lot and could even be worse overall.
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On October 13 2015 02:28 Cyro wrote:HuK and MC won the only meaningful LOTV tournament so far and you consider terran streamers far superior players
I don't consider Terran streamers far superior players. Avilo is far worse than HuK. I consider Polt and ForGG far superior to HuK and MC.
LotV, like HotS before it, will be balanced around Code S and SSL. Anyone who can not be consistently relevant in the Code S conversation is not directly relevant to balance conversations. It's as simple as that.
HuK and MC winning a tournament during a beta, while abusing units that were so OP that they've been nerfed twice in a row since then, while Bomber and MMA were basically trying to play HotS, is the zenith (or would it be the nadir?) of meaningless results, except insofar as it shows that the Adept was so broken, very mediocre players could beat very good players with it.
If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG. No "I got beat on ladder today" from any race, no "foreign Race X isn't winning with strategy Y."
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If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG
If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far
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On October 13 2015 08:01 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far
First of all, they play against plenty of Korean pros. I've seen Polt play Zest twice and Curious once, and last night ForGG played Armani, a barcode, and Vibe (not Korean, but still more relevant than Vibe vs. random GM). And I haven't watched that much of their streams, I'm sure they've played tons more.
Second, you seriously overestimate the effects of POV. We see every game they stream live. We see all of their wins and all of their losses, uncensored and unabridged. What difference does POV make if every game ends in an Adept push or a Liberator rush? I expect POV will have more impact once the game is way closer to being balanced and potential buffs and nerfs are very nuanced.
Our alternatives for gauging balance shouldn't be between using only Polt & ForGG or using all streamers, our alternatives should be using Polt & ForGG or using no one at all until equally skilled Zerg and Protoss show up.
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On October 13 2015 03:14 owlman wrote:Thank your for your answers  In my experience carriers were a bad choice vs good terran playing bio (mostly marine) + mass liberator. Do you agree? In that situation i would probably 3Sg + tempest
I make carriers because it's much higher dps, then I add some tempests, but marines arent very scary when you have disruptors
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I make carriers because it's much higher dps, then I add some tempests, but marines arent very scary when you have disruptors
i Don't use disruptors i don't like the "all or nothing" kind of theme of the unit.
The scary thing is not marine, it's liberator one shotting all your interceptors in less than 2sec ( it happens all the time at 12 + liberators)
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disruptor is the reason that I don't lose any pvt lol, it's really not all or nothing, you just shoot 1 ball at a time so you're never on "global cooldown" terran can never truly engage you and you just poke non stop
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On October 10 2015 20:23 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 18:56 TedCruz2016 wrote:On October 10 2015 18:08 SC2Angora wrote:
How many time we need to wait to have the parasitic bomb and the 8 ultra armur go out of this game ? Zerg isn't supposed to have such powerful units or skills. It's against the design of the race, which is quantity over quality - cheap units in large numbers. It should be mass lings, roaches or hydras against thor or BC, not MMMM against ultras. If that were the case then zerg should have more 1 supply units But they dont
Well, for the record, roach used to be 1 supply, and mass roaches was widely abused in mid and late game. Although I believe both T and P can handle that if roach was a 1 supply unit and remained its attack range of 3 and relatively low speed of burrow-movement, no way can it stop a match of mass roaches vs mass roaches in ZvZ.
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On October 13 2015 08:21 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 08:01 Cyro wrote:If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far First of all, they play against plenty of Korean pros. I've seen Polt play Zest twice and Curious once, and last night ForGG played Armani, a barcode, and Vibe (not Korean, but still more relevant than Vibe vs. random GM). And I haven't watched that much of their streams, I'm sure they've played tons more. Second, you seriously overestimate the effects of POV. We see every game they stream live. We see all of their wins and all of their losses, uncensored and unabridged. What difference does POV make if every game ends in an Adept push or a Liberator rush? I expect POV will have more impact once the game is way closer to being balanced and potential buffs and nerfs are very nuanced. Our alternatives for gauging balance shouldn't be between using only Polt & ForGG or using all streamers, our alternatives should be using Polt & ForGG or using no one at all until equally skilled Zerg and Protoss show up.
Tournaments are better at gauging things than ladder. On ladder a pros aim is not necessarily to win, but to learn, and with the game being as new as LotV that adds extra confusion to the game. Also the person Polt played wasn't Zest, he has to prepare for Blizzcon...
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On October 13 2015 16:54 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 08:21 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 13 2015 08:01 Cyro wrote:If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far First of all, they play against plenty of Korean pros. I've seen Polt play Zest twice and Curious once, and last night ForGG played Armani, a barcode, and Vibe (not Korean, but still more relevant than Vibe vs. random GM). And I haven't watched that much of their streams, I'm sure they've played tons more. Second, you seriously overestimate the effects of POV. We see every game they stream live. We see all of their wins and all of their losses, uncensored and unabridged. What difference does POV make if every game ends in an Adept push or a Liberator rush? I expect POV will have more impact once the game is way closer to being balanced and potential buffs and nerfs are very nuanced. Our alternatives for gauging balance shouldn't be between using only Polt & ForGG or using all streamers, our alternatives should be using Polt & ForGG or using no one at all until equally skilled Zerg and Protoss show up. Tournaments are better at gauging things than ladder. On ladder a pros aim is not necessarily to win, but to learn, and with the game being as new as LotV that adds extra confusion to the game.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes, tournament data is more relevant, but should Blizzard not balance the beta at all until the game comes out and the first season of Code S concludes?
Also the person Polt played wasn't Zest, he has to prepare for Blizzcon...
As opposed to Polt, who does not have to prepare for Blizzcon? Lol.
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Frankly I think Polt won't win a game at Blizzcon
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On October 13 2015 08:21 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 08:01 Cyro wrote:If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far Our alternatives for gauging balance shouldn't be between using only Polt & ForGG or using all streamers, our alternatives should be using Polt & ForGG or using no one at all until equally skilled Zerg and Protoss show up.
ForGG right now is terrible on LoTv.
He is a very good mechanical player but strategically he is terrible, on a game not completly figured out he is just bad.
I didn't see Polt play, i think we don't play on the same timezone so it doesn't help. Since he will play for Blizzcon i think he may have not played many games on LoTv yet...
My point is the best players on WoL/HoTs are not necessary the best players in LoTv beta. There are a few unknown european protoss players that are, at this moment, a lot better than Naniwa for example.
So you should not have an opinion on the balance of the game only by watching those guys. You can, but it is irrelevant.
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Please people stop taking one game you played as relevant for balance. I feel most people doesn't have the mind to think where they fucked up or how they could manage/micro their units better. Many are judging a unit after using it less than 2-3 times.
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On October 13 2015 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:28 Cyro wrote:Eh. They're at an ambiguously meaningful level. HuK and MC won the only meaningful LOTV tournament so far and you consider terran streamers far superior players LotV, like HotS before it, will be balanced around Code S and SSL. Anyone who can not be consistently relevant in the Code S conversation is not directly relevant to balance conversations. It's as simple as that. [...] If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG. No "I got beat on ladder today" from any race, no "foreign Race X isn't winning with strategy Y."
This is true for the time period after the game has been officially released and sanctioned for major tournament play. But during the beta; balance experience, player feedback, as well as in-game benchmarking data must be used to balance the game. There is no feasible way around this.
If Blizzard is even half as sophisticated as they should be, they have extremely detailed and comprehensive in-game analytics they use to drill-down into the interactions. Filters, segments, trends ... These are tools the general community do not (and cannot) really have. And that's fine. So we have to say things like, "holy shit, no matter what I do I can't handle [THIS PLAY]." Or, "I can't lose when I do [THIS PLAY]."
CODE S
I agree that the game should be balanced for the absolute highest levels of play, but there is a humongous and unavoidable variable that will prevent theoretical "perfect balance": individual skill. This will always obfuscate the data.
Take professional tennis for example--because it's the other sport I'm the most familiar with. A player like Novak Djokovic in 2015 is utterly dominant. Basically, he doesn't lose. 93% winrate. Does that mean his two-handed backhand, his shoes, his Head racquet, his strings, his diet plant--does that mean these things are OP? They're all within the rules of the game. Everyone else can use them. But nobody can use them at his level. Hard court, clay, grass, right-handed or left-handed opponent, wind, heat, cold, altitude; it doesn't matter. He will crush you.
I know a lot of you understand this concept, but there are certainly some who don't, or haven't thought about it. If the Novak Djokovic of Starcraft 2 chooses Zerg, then everything he does is going to look wildly OP. So, at the highest levels of Code S, you're bound to have Djokovic's running around crushing everyone's face, and if the goal is some arbitrary requirement that winrates need to be 33% across the three races, your'e going to have unjustified nerfs and buffs all over the place.
Basically, an asymmetrical game--almost by definition--played by humans, cannot be properly balanced, short of some mathematical algorithm that describes balance. *shrugs* Sorry. Feeling a little philosophical this morning.
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why they can't simply buff the siege tank instead of adding uninteresting unit like the cyclone? another a-move trash
they added the liberator which is a very new and cool units, it's so hard blizzard?
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they still haven't fixed the fucking widow mine
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Also, RIP Thor's back guns. 4 guns of uselessness. My dream would be a new attack animation, change up the back guns to be flak cannons that fire in a ripple of 4 and replace the stupid anti-air missiles.
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Pretty funny how even though this is a Protoss expansion, Protoss will be the weakest race when this game comes out.
Once again, Terran is granted their OP mules while Zerg's larva inject and Protoss Chrono gets removed/nerfed.
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On October 13 2015 17:03 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 16:54 ZAiNs wrote:On October 13 2015 08:21 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 13 2015 08:01 Cyro wrote:If I had my way, the only balance conversations on this forum would be about the games streamed by Polt and ForGG If you only allow balance conversations from looking at one races POV on a ladder, you won't get very far First of all, they play against plenty of Korean pros. I've seen Polt play Zest twice and Curious once, and last night ForGG played Armani, a barcode, and Vibe (not Korean, but still more relevant than Vibe vs. random GM). And I haven't watched that much of their streams, I'm sure they've played tons more. Second, you seriously overestimate the effects of POV. We see every game they stream live. We see all of their wins and all of their losses, uncensored and unabridged. What difference does POV make if every game ends in an Adept push or a Liberator rush? I expect POV will have more impact once the game is way closer to being balanced and potential buffs and nerfs are very nuanced. Our alternatives for gauging balance shouldn't be between using only Polt & ForGG or using all streamers, our alternatives should be using Polt & ForGG or using no one at all until equally skilled Zerg and Protoss show up. Tournaments are better at gauging things than ladder. On ladder a pros aim is not necessarily to win, but to learn, and with the game being as new as LotV that adds extra confusion to the game. I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes, tournament data is more relevant, but should Blizzard not balance the beta at all until the game comes out and the first season of Code S concludes? As opposed to Polt, who does not have to prepare for Blizzcon? Lol.
By tournament data I meant the shit ton of weekly cups that have players like Solar, Reality, Patience, Armani, etc playing in them, as well as some of the foreigners who are doing the best right now like Neeb and Bly. Much more meaningful than Polt's ladder games.
Also, Zest can actually win Blizzcon (and 10k at KungFuCup), even if he wanted to waste time playing LotV, KT wouldn't let him. Polt has a 30% winrate this year vs Koreans (and mostly not even Kespa ones) and in the first/second rounds will have to play players with around 70%+ PvT winrates vs Koreans this year. Additionally, Polt, not living in a Kespa team house, has nobody to practice HotS with either. That's why Polt is playing LotV.
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EPT
