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On October 10 2015 05:44 Para199x wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:15 Spyridon wrote:
So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before... and those can not be spammed?
Not sure how that makes any sense...
So I guess like the last 2 iterations of SC2, at the launch Terran will be in a very strong position, then 1 year later they will be nerfed in to the worst position for another year... Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote:
So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%? What is with people equating all the macro mechanics. They all play fundamentally different roles of different importance for each race. Making a direct comparison is really dumb.
It is not. If those numbers were balanced in HotS and the mining efficiency of workers has not changed in LotV, this kind of disproportional nerf is a direct hit to Protoss economy.
Edit: Because Protoss now have less Probes at any given time.
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On October 10 2015 05:44 Para199x wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:15 Spyridon wrote:
So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before... and those can not be spammed?
Not sure how that makes any sense...
So I guess like the last 2 iterations of SC2, at the launch Terran will be in a very strong position, then 1 year later they will be nerfed in to the worst position for another year... Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote:
So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%? What is with people equating all the macro mechanics. They all play fundamentally different roles of different importance for each race. Making a direct comparison is really dumb.
Extra larvae for drone production -- probe build time reduction -- MULE income -- are all affecting different aspects of production. Each contribute to income in very different ways. No way could they all be adjusted by a same percentage and expect a balanced game. Zerg always has more production slots. Protoss got cheesy timings by speeding certain things up. Terran floated minerals. Impossible to keep balanced with uniform adjustments.
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Mule was nerfed by 1-25/30 = .2 or 20%. That is, Mules now bring in 20% less income than before. But the impact on total income is much lower.
Chrono was nerfed by 1-1.15/1.25 = .08 or 8% where the 25% is the average chronoboost increases from one nexus since you're limited by energy regen (< 100% chronoboost uptime).
That is, things being chrono-ed by one nexus now produce at a rate 8% slower than before. The big change is that you can longer dump multiple nexuses worth of energy regen into one thing. In that case it's a 1 - 1.15/1.5 = .233 or 23.3% nerf.
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Protoss got a very minor early-game production speed nerf, and a significant nerf when it comes to hitting timings since that's when you want dump all your chrono into one thing.
Terran just got a very minor income nerf. A Mule is now worth 3.6 SCV's, it used to be worth 4.5 Since the starting worker count is 12, that amount to a 1 - 15.6/16.5 = .055 or 5.5% mineral income nerf.
Edit:
TL;DR: Protoss all-ins nerfed. Late game mass mules and mule based comebacks from catastrophic worker damage nerfed. Everything else pretty much the same.
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On October 10 2015 05:28 Firkraag8 wrote:
I was really excited for Protoss in LotV, the warpin changes was some of the best design I've seen out of Blizzard yet and now they reversed them to HotS basically..
Like everything else in the beta...
On October 10 2015 05:44 Para199x wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:15 Spyridon wrote:
So now mules are approx 16% less minerals harvested when compared to hots (and can still be spammed), but spawn larvae is 25% less than before, and chronoboost is about 70% less effective as it was before... and those can not be spammed?
Not sure how that makes any sense...
So I guess like the last 2 iterations of SC2, at the launch Terran will be in a very strong position, then 1 year later they will be nerfed in to the worst position for another year... Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote:
So MULEs were nerfed by 16,66% while Chrono was nerfed by 40%? What is with people equating all the macro mechanics. They all play fundamentally different roles of different importance for each race. Making a direct comparison is really dumb.
Because hots is in a somewhat balanced state, and then if you take the macro mechancis and makes some have a minor difference while some being significantly weaker, that does not reflect on a smart idea for balance. 40% is a SIGNIFICANT difference.... and very noticable. I am not even a Protoss player and it is troubling to see them receive such a hard nerf while Terrans mechanic is barely untouched and they still did not fix the REAL problem with Mules (the spammability).
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On October 10 2015 05:52 Athenau wrote:
Mule was nerfed by 1-25/30 = .2 or 20%. That is, Mules now bring in 20% less income than before. But the impact on total income is much lower.
Chrono was nerfed by 1-1.15/1.25 = .08 or 8% where the 25% is the average chronoboost increases from one nexus since you're limited by energy regen (< 100% chronoboost uptime).
That is, things being chrono-ed by one nexus now produce at a rate 8% slower than before. The big change is that you can longer dump multiple nexus's worth of energy regen into one thing. In that case it's a 1 - 1.15/1.5 = .233 or 23.3% nerf.
Your math is flawed, mate. 1-25/30 = 16,6%. Chrono reduction from 25% to 15% is 1-15/25 = 40%. Or compared to HotS chrono with multiple Nexi, in cases where you can chrono one Upgrade/Unit non-stop:1-15/50= 70%. Yep, a nerf of whopping 70%. That is why we see Protoss dying way more often to tech switches in LotV, than we do in HotS.
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Very disappointing patch.
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
The cyclone speed increase looks dumb as hell.
And, most important thing, so few things are happening ? Isn't release in a month ? Do they really deem the game to be playable ?
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Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ...
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On October 10 2015 06:03 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 05:52 Athenau wrote:
Mule was nerfed by 1-25/30 = .2 or 20%. That is, Mules now bring in 20% less income than before. But the impact on total income is much lower.
Chrono was nerfed by 1-1.15/1.25 = .08 or 8% where the 25% is the average chronoboost increases from one nexus since you're limited by energy regen (< 100% chronoboost uptime).
That is, things being chrono-ed by one nexus now produce at a rate 8% slower than before. The big change is that you can longer dump multiple nexus's worth of energy regen into one thing. In that case it's a 1 - 1.15/1.5 = .233 or 23.3% nerf. Your math is flawed, mate. 1-25/30 = 16,6%. Chrono reduction from 25% to 15% is 1-15/25 = 40%. Or compared to HotS chrono with multiple Nexi, in cases where you can chrono on Upgrade/Unit non-stop:1-15/50= 70%. Yep, a nerf of whopping 70%. That is why we see Protoss dying way more often to tech switches in LotV, than we do in HotS.
Whoops, you're right, that should be 16.6%.
But the rest of your math is wrong. 1-15/25 is a meaningless quantity. You care about the rate at which you produce chronoboosted things (which is when you used the time averaged 25% number for old chrono, since multiple nexuses can be used to speed up multiple production facilities), or the time it takes to finish something (like an upgrade, or a key unit), which is when you're actually dumping multiple nexuses worth of energy into one thing.
You produce things 8.6% slower, and things take (1.5/1.15 - 1)*100 = 30% longer to complete.
70% is complete nonsense.
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Great patch but the strength of mass air compositions should really be looked at.
That and unkillable ultras are the biggest problem atm.
I wonder what the current warpin does better then the hots one. The main complaints about warpins were that they made allins to strong and that it removes defenders advantage.
The current warpin fixes neither of that.
it just makes protoss dependent on a warpprism while nerfing their overall mapcontrol through proxy pylons.
They should just revert to HotS imo.
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On October 10 2015 06:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
At that point they should just admit their warpgate change sucks. Split warp-in power and energy power, that was a lot cleaner.
how does it suck? it's now the same as in hots except offensive warp-ins are worse, which is what the majority of people wanted...
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On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ...
Thing is a lot of the changes have been effectively reverted indeed, but they left their little touch of useless inelegance (bastardized macro mechanics, sucky warpgate change) that makes LotV look even worse than HotS...
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On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ...
No reason to change things that are well designed.
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On October 10 2015 06:10 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... Thing is a lot of the changes have been effectively reverted indeed, but they left their little touch of useless inelegance (bastardized macro mechanics, sucky warpgate change) that makes LotV look even worse than HotS...
I agree, this is HoTs 2.0... like Bnet 2.0 ^^
New but worse on some aspects
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On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed.
Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game.
The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game.
You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army.
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On October 10 2015 06:08 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:03 CheddarToss wrote:On October 10 2015 05:52 Athenau wrote:
Mule was nerfed by 1-25/30 = .2 or 20%. That is, Mules now bring in 20% less income than before. But the impact on total income is much lower.
Chrono was nerfed by 1-1.15/1.25 = .08 or 8% where the 25% is the average chronoboost increases from one nexus since you're limited by energy regen (< 100% chronoboost uptime).
That is, things being chrono-ed by one nexus now produce at a rate 8% slower than before. The big change is that you can longer dump multiple nexus's worth of energy regen into one thing. In that case it's a 1 - 1.15/1.5 = .233 or 23.3% nerf. Your math is flawed, mate. 1-25/30 = 16,6%. Chrono reduction from 25% to 15% is 1-15/25 = 40%. Or compared to HotS chrono with multiple Nexi, in cases where you can chrono on Upgrade/Unit non-stop:1-15/50= 70%. Yep, a nerf of whopping 70%. That is why we see Protoss dying way more often to tech switches in LotV, than we do in HotS. Whoops, you're right, that should be 16.6%. But the rest of your math is wrong. 1-15/25 is a quantity that has no meaning. You care about the rate at which you produce chronoboosted things (which is when you used the time averaged 25% number, since multiple nexuses can be used to speed up multiple production facilities), or the duration it takes to finish something (like an upgrade, or a key unit), which is when you're actually dumping multiple nexuses worth of energy into one thing. You produce things 8% slower, and things take (1.5/1.15 - 1)*100 = 30% longer to complete. 70% is complete nonsense.
It isn't nonsense. That is by how much Chrono was nerfed, when you compare to the case, in which multiple Nexi are chronoing one thing (in HotS). I urge you to check your math again. Since Chrono is REDUCING build time, you can not add the Chrono time reduction to 1, you have to subtract. And when doing proper math (0.85/0.5 = 1.7 --> 70%) you see that things take 70% longer to complete, when you use the LotV -15% version of Chrono vs the -50% HotS version of Chrono (used non-stop).
Example:
Say you are making a hypothetical unit that takes 10 sec to build. With old Chrono it only takes 5sec. With new -15% Chrono it takes 8.5 sec. And by how much is 8.5 sec longer than 5 sec? 8.5/5 - 1 = 70%. Voila.
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So the cyclone is now faster than speedlings without creep?
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@cheddartoss:
Uhhh, no. Old chrono was a 50% rate increase. It wasn't a 50% decrease in duration
Unboosted: 10 seconds
Old Chrono: 6.67 seconds (10/1.5)
New Chrono: 8.69 seconds (10/1.15)
That's 30% slower not 70% slower.
For reference: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_Boost
In particular:
Located at the Nexus, this ability can be activated using 25 energy and is used to increase the production or research speed at the target building by 50%. This allows the building to do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds, so production/research will complete 10 seconds earlier.
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On October 10 2015 06:19 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 06:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2015 06:08 FireCake wrote:
Which change has still not been reverting ?
Looks like we are going to play HoTs 2.0 ... No reason to change things that are well designed. Starcraft is a complex game, you can't say this particular unit or this particular spell is "well designed" when there are obvious big problems in the game. The beauty of starcraft is in the interaction between units, builds, abilities, micro, decision making... If one thing is bad it affects the whole game. You mentionned mass air composition such as carrier. It is a huge problem and protoss build orders will always revolve around the idea of getting to this stage of the game at some point. It is not only a "late game" problem because there will have build orders where the protoss will spend most of the time waiting until he gets his massive army.
My point was that Blizzard shouldn't change things just for the sake of changing things but to make the game better.
only because certain units/mechanics are similar to HotS doesn't mean they are bad. (Of course they can be bad but the argument shouldn't be "the problem is that it's to similar to HotS")
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On October 10 2015 06:24 Ovid wrote:
So the cyclone is now faster than speedlings without creep?
No, they're using the new real-time numbers in the patch notes.
Cyclones are stim bio speed now (3.375). They were worker speed (2.81) before.
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EPT
