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On October 08 2015 03:39 parkufarku wrote:
Last thing we need is Terran having 1000 different ways to do the same things...
Protoss has Psionic Storm, Disruptor, and Colossus as AOE options. I haven't really seen you campaigning to get one of those removed from the game.
already the most flexible race that exists.
Terran and Protoss have to be more flexible than Zerg because of the way Zerg production works, so your statement is a little sensationalist.
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surprised & pleased with how well written this piece was. Props to Iaguz for bringing this issue out for discussion. Its well needed & imo obvious, that something needs to change in regards to this unit. Btw love the picture!
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On October 08 2015 03:43 BEARDiaguz wrote:A fella can dream.
hu? Is that a "pick me, pick me"? 
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Can we just get the vulture back, with an easier to execute moving shot?
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On October 08 2015 03:54 CrimxnKnightQaos wrote:
Can we just get the vulture back, with an easier to execute moving shot?
What, and only kill lings 1 at a time, 2 shots to a ling?! How am I supposed to stop ling/bane timings with that!?
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Bring back the HERC. That was a fun, goofy unit.
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On October 08 2015 03:34 BEARDiaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 03:32 Little-Chimp wrote:On October 08 2015 03:22 BEARDiaguz wrote:On October 08 2015 03:18 Musicus wrote:Thanks for the article! Scrap the Cyclone and the Thor and give us the Goliath  . I just said it above but I'll repeat myself I suppose, the Goliath is already in this game! It's called the Viking now. The notion that adding Broodwar units = auto improved game should already be disproved by the Lurker. Oh hells no, I love the new lurker. Great article btw Well, I'll leave it to Zerg players to give their opinions regarding the Lurker, but from my own games it's mostly been a bit of a dud. But the main point is that Viking = Goliath 2.0. It flies now! Yay!
Well but there is still a difference between a starport and a factory unit right? BeastyQT and Morrow definitely were very much in favor of getting the goliath back during remax. You are right with the Viking I guess, it's just that the Terran race already feels so complete, it's really hard to add something. But the Cyclone just feels wrong.
I love the gameplay the lurker delivers btw, definitely one of the best additions with the disruptor imo! Zergs can control space? Holy shit!
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didn't want to quote sorry, I will never get used to this
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On October 08 2015 03:57 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 03:34 BEARDiaguz wrote:On October 08 2015 03:32 Little-Chimp wrote:On October 08 2015 03:22 BEARDiaguz wrote:On October 08 2015 03:18 Musicus wrote:Thanks for the article! Scrap the Cyclone and the Thor and give us the Goliath . I just said it above but I'll repeat myself I suppose, the Goliath is already in this game! It's called the Viking now. The notion that adding Broodwar units = auto improved game should already be disproved by the Lurker. Oh hells no, I love the new lurker. Great article btw Well, I'll leave it to Zerg players to give their opinions regarding the Lurker, but from my own games it's mostly been a bit of a dud. But the main point is that Viking = Goliath 2.0. It flies now! Yay! Well but there is still a difference between a starport and a factory unit right? BeastyQT and Morrow definitely were very much in favor of getting the goliath back during remax. You are right with the Viking I guess, it's just that the Terran race already feels so complete, it's really hard to add something. But the Cyclone just feels wrong. I love the gameplay the lurker delivers btw, definitely one of the best additions with the disruptor imo! Zergs can control space? Holy shit!
Well, then they're wrong and I guess I'm going to have to fight them.
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SC3 needs to make Iaguz the unit portrait for Vultures.
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On October 08 2015 03:46 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 03:39 parkufarku wrote:
Last thing we need is Terran having 1000 different ways to do the same things... Protoss has Psionic Storm, Disruptor, and Colossus as AOE options. I haven't really seen you campaigning to get one of those removed from the game. Terran and Protoss have to be more flexible than Zerg because of the way Zerg production works, so your statement is a little sensationalist.
You can't compare a spell and a unit just because they both happen to do AoE damage. It's like saying HSM need to be removed because tanks exist since they both do AoE damage (I haven't advocated for HSM removal)
If you haven't seen me, I have been campaigning the removal of lurkers due to overlapping roles with banelings.
Last time I checked P was much more inflexible than Terran. P can't fly their buildings around, insta-regen (repair), create workers out of nowhere, get instant vision of anywhere instantly, have a radar system, upgrade their building armor, etc. T just has so much more options than the other races that it's not even funny.
And Terran's production resembles Zerg's mass-production thanks to barrack-reactors / starport-reactors, at least more so than Protoss.
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On October 08 2015 03:55 BEARDiaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 03:54 CrimxnKnightQaos wrote:
Can we just get the vulture back, with an easier to execute moving shot? What, and only kill lings 1 at a time, 2 shots to a ling?! How am I supposed to stop ling/bane timings with that!?
I'd be willing to make that trade. I'd happily give up splash damage and greedier openings for the second cheapest and fastest harassing unit that also happens to lay mines.
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On October 08 2015 04:04 BEARDiaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 03:57 Musicus wrote:On October 08 2015 03:34 BEARDiaguz wrote:On October 08 2015 03:32 Little-Chimp wrote:On October 08 2015 03:22 BEARDiaguz wrote:On October 08 2015 03:18 Musicus wrote:Thanks for the article! Scrap the Cyclone and the Thor and give us the Goliath . I just said it above but I'll repeat myself I suppose, the Goliath is already in this game! It's called the Viking now. The notion that adding Broodwar units = auto improved game should already be disproved by the Lurker. Oh hells no, I love the new lurker. Great article btw Well, I'll leave it to Zerg players to give their opinions regarding the Lurker, but from my own games it's mostly been a bit of a dud. But the main point is that Viking = Goliath 2.0. It flies now! Yay! Well but there is still a difference between a starport and a factory unit right? BeastyQT and Morrow definitely were very much in favor of getting the goliath back during remax. You are right with the Viking I guess, it's just that the Terran race already feels so complete, it's really hard to add something. But the Cyclone just feels wrong. I love the gameplay the lurker delivers btw, definitely one of the best additions with the disruptor imo! Zergs can control space? Holy shit! Well, then they're wrong and I guess I'm going to have to fight them.
Well that would just be unfair, even 1v2 if you bring your axe.
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Cyclones are good at two thing that mech lacks :
- an ability to force a fight. With mech, your only way to force a fight is to siege a position that annoys the opponent. With cyclones, you can now force a fight by pursuing a fleeing opponent. For instance, in HOTS TvP, if you wanna go mech, the protoss can, with an immortal ball, just destroy your hellbats, then back when you siege. So you have to cross the map siegeing every 10 meters and loosing 4 hellbats each time
- the ability to kill runbies : if 5-6 roaches, 6-7 blink stalker, 4 marauders and a medi, find their way to a spot you are not defending, how do you counter it without sending your whole army? With thors/hellbats/unsieged tanks? They're slow and you're not gonna trade efficiently. The only answer in HOTS are banshees. But since Blizzard wants to separate ground mech from air mech, terran now needs a mobile and skirmishy mech unit
So yeah, I agree the design of the cyclone is gimmicky, but it somehow fills holes in the terran mech play.
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On October 08 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
insta-regen (repair),
What?! Protoss can insta regen, its called shields, terrans can't, they need special units for that (SCV and Medivac) and one of them costs money (repair).
On October 08 2015 04:12 JackONeill wrote:
Cyclones are good at two thing that mech lacks :
- an ability to force a fight. With mech, your only way to force a fight is to siege a position that annoys the opponent. With cyclones, you can now force a fight by pursuing a fleeing opponent. For instance, in HOTS TvP, if you wanna go mech, the protoss can, with an immortal ball, just destroy your hellbats, then back when you siege. So you have to cross the map siegeing every 10 meters and loosing 4 hellbats each time
- the ability to kill runbies : if 5-6 roaches, 6-7 blink stalker, 4 marauders and a medi, find their way to a spot you are not defending, how do you counter it without sending your whole army? With thors/hellbats/unsieged tanks? They're slow and you're not gonna trade efficiently. The only answer in HOTS are banshees. But since Blizzard wants to separate ground mech from air mech, terran now needs a mobile and skirmishy mech unit
So yeah, I agree the design of the cyclone is gimmicky, but it somehow fills holes in the terran mech play.
Finally someone that shares my opinion.
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On October 08 2015 04:15 Lexender wrote:What?! Protoss can insta regen, its called shields, terrans can't, they need special units for that (SCV and Medivac) and one of them costs money (repair).
Protoss regen isn't instant. Terran "regen" does indeed cost money but it's very minimal and very very fast.
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Such a shit ass, boring, stupid unit.
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On October 08 2015 04:12 JackONeill wrote:
Cyclones are good at two thing that mech lacks :
- an ability to force a fight. With mech, your only way to force a fight is to siege a position that annoys the opponent. With cyclones, you can now force a fight by pursuing a fleeing opponent. For instance, in HOTS TvP, if you wanna go mech, the protoss can, with an immortal ball, just destroy your hellbats, then back when you siege. So you have to cross the map siegeing every 10 meters and loosing 4 hellbats each time
- the ability to kill runbies : if 5-6 roaches, 6-7 blink stalker, 4 marauders and a medi, find their way to a spot you are not defending, how do you counter it without sending your whole army? With thors/hellbats/unsieged tanks? They're slow and you're not gonna trade efficiently. The only answer in HOTS are banshees. But since Blizzard wants to separate ground mech from air mech, terran now needs a mobile and skirmishy mech unit
So yeah, I agree the design of the cyclone is gimmicky, but it somehow fills holes in the terran mech play.
Interesting points.
I don't think you can completely play mech without some air support, similarly you cannot play bio with air some air support. Your points are still interesting, though. I mean, helions can run back, morph into Hellbats and then fight, but the amount of them you need to kill stuff is pretty funny.
On October 08 2015 04:16 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 04:15 Lexender wrote:On October 08 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
insta-regen (repair),
What?! Protoss can insta regen, its called shields, terrans can't, they need special units for that (SCV and Medivac) and one of them costs money (repair). Protoss regen isn't instant. Terran "regen" does indeed cost money but it's very minimal and very very fast.
Just try and make your points without being so hyperbolic, man. Both Zerg and Protoss have healing that is passive, and free. Terran heals Bio with resources, supply, and energy (Medivacs), and Terran repairs mechanical units and structures with resources, SCVs, time, and APM. It's not free. It's not instant, and you have to pay twice (money for the repair, and lost mining time).
Yes, Terran can fly their buildings (if you're not over that by now, I don't know what to tell you) but our buildings are the only ones that can be prevented from building (by killing the SCV). And of course, each building has a cost multiplier from lost mining time.
So--please--with the "insta-regen" talk. It's not true. What happens if I'm out in the field with my mech army, and they all get injured? How do I heal them? You know how. I sit there, spend time, spend APM, grab SCVs, send them out on the map, or march my ass back home, or just deal with the damage.
Every Zerg unit heals for free. Every Protoss unit regenerates shields for free. Both need to be out of combat. Terrain can spend money and supply to repair or heal while in combat. Asymmetric differences in the healing mechanics.
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On October 08 2015 04:16 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 04:15 Lexender wrote:On October 08 2015 04:09 parkufarku wrote:
insta-regen (repair),
What?! Protoss can insta regen, its called shields, terrans can't, they need special units for that (SCV and Medivac) and one of them costs money (repair). Protoss regen isn't instant. Terran "regen" does indeed cost money but it's very minimal and very very fast.
It isn't if you take into consideration you need to get units for that, SCVs and Medivacs cost money and they take supply, supply that you don't have in fighting units.
The races are asymetrical but balanced, saying that terran is TOO flexible because it has things protoss don't is stupid because protoss has things terran doesn't.
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We don't need any new units (with the exception of Science Vessel, and Goliath - in place of Thor).
Merely replace Cyclone and Liberator with further Viking upgrades.
All respective roles, as was said, have been filled.
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EPT
