• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:02
CEST 13:02
KST 20:02
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway13
Community News
SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia7Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues26LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments3Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?39Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon What happened to Singapore/Brazil servers?
Tourneys
WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast
Brood War
General
Pros React To: SoulKey's 5-Peat Challenge ASL20 General Discussion BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group B [ASL20] Ro16 Group A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Borderlands 3 Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1616 users

Iaguz: Cyclones, who needs 'em?

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
147 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All

Iaguz: Cyclones, who needs 'em?

Text byBEARDiaguz
Graphics byv1
October 7th, 2015 17:19 GMT

Cyclones, who needs ‘em?


Why does this unit exist?

In developing units for Starcraft there’s two basic/fundamental reasons for a unit to exist. First, a unit’s concept is interesting and fun to use and second, it fills a role or gap in a races’ arsenal in a way that conforms to a race’s design identity. Coming into Legacy of the Void every race is well-rounded so I believe making fun, interesting units is the primary goal. There’s no more strategic roles that need filling, just make units that interact in ways that challenge us somehow. It is my belief that the Cyclone is a failed design and should be scrapped, and I’m gonna tell you why.

In RTS games the ability for a unit to abuse an enemy unit that has shorter range by kiting it is an organic byproduct of design. It informs unit relations and promotes skilful unit usage. Some unit relationships in Starcraft are designed and balanced in such a way as to presume one player will be controlling their units in this manner, eg. Hellions and Reapers vs Zerglings, Stalkers against Marines and Phoenixes against Mutalisks.

But the Cyclone is designed from the outset to be the ultimate kiting machine. Once it locks on it outranges anything short of a deployed Siege tank or a Tempest, assuming it can maintain line of sight, and can theoretically defeat any unit in a 1v1 situation so long as it can maintain that Lock On and remain out of their attack range. If a player were to amass a massive force of Cyclones what’s to stop them running rampant? What sort of downside or weakness do you give a unit like that?

If you make it slow or short sighted then it can’t achieve a full Lock On and its potential is wasted. It risks being easily swarmed by fast low tier units so it can’t be useful early in the game against races that can produce fast basic units, i.e., all of them.

Instead, make it expensive and slow to build then it’s difficult to amass and most people will not bother, especially since if you’re turtling as Terran you’re kinda meant to be making Battlecruisers or something.

Alternatively, give it low DPS over a long period of time and demand it receives a lot of specific attention then you have something that cannot be managed as part of a larger army. Currently it takes 14 seconds for a Lock On to finish. If you want to deal 600 damage to an Ultralisk over a 14 second period during a battle then by the time the Cyclone is finished doing it’s thing, the Ultra has finished its meal of Marauder steak and Marine chips. It’s also poor at defending against enemy air units which can almost always escape the Lock On mostly unscathed, bar the occasional Overlord who decided to take their coffee break deep inside the Terran’s base.

If it can only attack ground, how do you appropriately balance it alongside a race that has Siege Tanks? In a game that’s primarily about ground armies duking it out you cannot have a Terran factory unit that’s superior to Siege tanks at handling ground targets, and due to the introduction of Tankivacs into the game we cannot consider mobility to be that much of an asset. This was something of an issue with the Warhound back in the HotS beta; it was frequently much stronger than the Siege Tank in ground engagements and Mech lost a lot of it’s identity. Simply unacceptable.

If it can attack both air and ground, how do you balance it’s numbers in such a way as to not become oppressive? The Cyclone cannot replace the Siege tank as an anti ground unit and it cannot replace the Viking or Thor as an anti air unit so what is it for? It can’t harass as well as a Medivac, Banshee or Liberator, can’t pick out individual units like Snipe, Yamato cannon or Seeker missile or you’d have a problem. The Cyclone is by design a Jack of all Trades but since it must be a Master of None, it struggles to find relevance in Terran compositions.

I believe this is the essential conundrum with the Cyclone as it exists in the game, since it suffers from a combination of all these issues. Earlier in the beta the Cyclone was actually quite a powerful unit; its Lock On was extremely oppressive to play against right from the start of the game, particularly for Protoss players. Now that it’s been brought into line we can see the issues apparent in its design with clarity.

I don’t think the Cyclone is fun. This is always a hard thing to properly elaborate, it’s not like you can dissect a copy of Starcraft II and see where the Fun is hiding amongst the code. For me, and I’m speaking extremely subjectively here, fun comes in two forms: One is when something feels imbalanced, possibly because it is, like when a quartet of widow mines make a Mutalisk flock or Probe line disappear. Two is that tactile feeling of satisfaction that comes from handling groups of units in an effective and skillful manner, like handling groups of Marauder/Medivac against Protoss or dunking a bunch of Tankivacs within range of something tasty.

And it fails at both of these. Obviously any unit can be powerful and I will admit to a certain giddiness when Protoss were forced to open Phoenixes in the early beta just to draw the game out a bit before their inevitable obliteration. In its current state the cyclone is frustrating to handle, the lock frequently breaks and it deals far too little damage too slowly. Trying to use it as part of a larger army composition is a mug’s game, too much effort for far too little reward. I cannot speak for other Terrans but the lack of a conversation about the Cyclone is quite telling. Nobody is making them, nobody likes them, nobody’s sharing gifs or highlight videos or screenshots about Cyclones on reddit. The considerable buzz that the unit generated in it’s unveiling at Blizzcon last year was impressive but it’s depleted itself now. We’re all about Liberators now!

So, I ask again, why does this unit exist? Well, I believe in the latest patch Blizzard has shown us why. It’s to handle beefy armoured units with it’s Mag-Field Accelerator upgrade, particularly the Ultralisk. And this is a role that it currently fails at quite miserably. BC’s and Carriers will shred Cyclones to pieces while they try to get into initial lock on range and they simply don’t do enough damage to Ultralisks fast enough within a battle and lack the mobility to harass them outside of battles. I have a suspicion the Cyclone is part of Blizzard's recent campaign to try and justify Chitinous Plating making Ultralisks immune to Bio units (Big Snipe and Anti-Armour Drone being the last two ideas implemented, gone unused and swiftly discarded) and it simply isn’t working.

One is generally required to offer a suggestion after a long critique so here goes: Scrap the Cyclone as a forced kiting unit. It’s inorganic, it’s not fun and it’s got more problems than benefits. Perhaps you could give it a simpler, single target focus like the Viper or the Tempest? I’m not really sure, Terran is quite well rounded strategically, but the important thing is that the unit just doesn’t work right now.There’s nothing wrong with admitting the Cyclone was a failure. Most unit concepts never turn out suitable for prime time and that’s ok. Making units for Starcraft is a tricky thing and I guess this is what betas are for. At least Liberators are fun, am I right?



Writer: Iaguz
Graphics: V1
Editors: DarkLordOlli
Facebook Twitter Reddit
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
October 07 2015 17:20 GMT
#2
I should add that I wrote this before the ghost Steady Targeting buff, which does actually make them really good at slaying Ultralisks, and a lot of Zerg units besides.

Oh the risks of writing stuff about a beta.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
oGoZenob
Profile Joined December 2011
France1503 Posts
October 07 2015 17:29 GMT
#3
this picture is beyond glorious
I like starcraft
CarlosDanger
Profile Joined October 2013
United Kingdom2 Posts
October 07 2015 17:31 GMT
#4
Good point well made.
faulty
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada204 Posts
October 07 2015 17:34 GMT
#5
%100 agreed. I never liked this unit. Looked way too clunky and rushed.
"More gg, more skill" - White-Ra
FruitsPunchSamurai
Profile Joined August 2011
United Kingdom87 Posts
October 07 2015 17:35 GMT
#6
How about splitting it's ground and air attacks, keeping the anti-air attack to function as it currently does while giving it regular ground attacks (stationary when firing)? This would stop the infinite kiting vs early game units while allowing it to fare better against slower air units. Stats for it can be adjusted accordingly.
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
October 07 2015 17:40 GMT
#7
I just want the Viking and Siege Tank Thor be the core. I really love the interaction of 3 of those units. Sadly 2 of them way to overnerfed because the were to dominant in TvT.
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10675 Posts
October 07 2015 17:41 GMT
#8
Amazing and I LOVE the picture Iaguz....so boss :D
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
October 07 2015 17:42 GMT
#9
I feel like the moment this unit is useful against a variety of units, it is unfun for at least the other player due to not being engagable. If it isn't useful against a variety of units, it just doesn't serve a proper purpse given its techlevel, costs, production speed.
So far the unit has been hovering between imbalanced (enough range and dps to kite everything to death) and underpowered (not enough damage and dps to kite forever against most opponents). And I think this will just stay a fundamental problem of the unit, at best it can find a place where it is niche-strong against certain early-midgame build orders, but then drops of in usefulness quickly again because the opponent can just react to the acumulation of cyclones.
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3300 Posts
October 07 2015 17:44 GMT
#10
Atrocious unit
T P Z sagi
caznitch
Profile Joined July 2012
Canada645 Posts
October 07 2015 17:47 GMT
#11
Before I even read the article: Best photo ever for an article.
why?
bObA
Profile Joined May 2012
France300 Posts
October 07 2015 17:48 GMT
#12
at the beginning it was pretty good after having removed the herk that was so imba, but now nobody uses it so I agree with him.
But maybe a new terran unit ?
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
October 07 2015 17:48 GMT
#13
iaguz has been on the front page more than almost every pro. probably in the top 5.
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
bObA
Profile Joined May 2012
France300 Posts
October 07 2015 17:49 GMT
#14
On October 08 2015 02:47 caznitch wrote:
Before I even read the article: Best photo ever for an article.


yea agree lol ! Jim Iaguz !!!
Wrath
Profile Blog Joined July 2014
3174 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-07 17:52:40
October 07 2015 17:52 GMT
#15
They suck at AA department. The entire lockdown is horrible. Just make it into Goliath 2.0 to be super AA ground unit from factory with weak AG.
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-07 18:01:12
October 07 2015 17:53 GMT
#16
Coming into Legacy of the Void every race is well-rounded so I believe making fun


How can we know if every race is well rounded or not if we don't know what gaps mech has against Protoss? Y'know, because mech isn't usable against Protoss?

This isn't a knock on Iaguz's article, it just seems circuitous to suggest that a race doesn't need any more units because nobody wants that race to do new things.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Phaenoman
Profile Joined February 2013
568 Posts
October 07 2015 17:53 GMT
#17
Dude that picture is distracting me from reading this article loooool. <3
Random is hard work dude...
BamBam
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
745 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-07 17:55:05
October 07 2015 17:54 GMT
#18
Heres a question for you, say that everything you just wrote about was right, and blizzard is on board with the idea of scrapping the unit entirely. What would you replace it with?

I cannot think of any infantry-based unit that terran needs since all respective roles are filled, nor can I think of any starport units with the addition of the liberator and the buff to BC's to warp anywhere.

The only place left to really add a unit would be the factory, but now you're looking at a unit to add that doesn't impede on the siege tank's crowd control or the thor's anti air/single target damage. Arguably all you're left with is a spellcaster slot in place of the cyclone to do... what exactly? Terran already has the best defensive options so you're left with an offensive spellcaster thats mech oriented which cannot directly control engagements else risk being massed instead of a siege tank.
"two is way better than twice as one" - artosis
alpenrahm
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany628 Posts
October 07 2015 17:55 GMT
#19
liquid Iaguz confirmed.
91matt
Profile Joined March 2013
United Kingdom147 Posts
October 07 2015 17:58 GMT
#20
they should remove the liberator and cyclone and put in the goliath
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RSL Revival
10:00
Season 2: Playoffs Day 4
Cure vs ZounLIVE!
Classic vs Maru
Tasteless570
Crank 536
IndyStarCraft 176
Rex84
CranKy Ducklings70
3DClanTV 43
IntoTheiNu 16
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Tasteless 570
Crank 536
IndyStarCraft 176
Rex 84
Codebar 38
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 9798
Horang2 1339
Barracks 645
Pusan 287
Soma 249
EffOrt 245
Hyun 241
Last 182
sSak 173
ToSsGirL 58
[ Show more ]
ZerO 46
ggaemo 46
Rush 43
Nal_rA 32
yabsab 17
JYJ9
NaDa 9
Hm[arnc] 8
Shine 7
Icarus 3
Sea.KH 2
Dota 2
The International162058
Gorgc13159
Dendi1013
PGG 62
Counter-Strike
x6flipin466
allub172
oskar109
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King112
Westballz12
Other Games
DeMusliM267
Happy184
XaKoH 122
NeuroSwarm60
MindelVK18
mouzStarbuck11
ZerO(Twitch)5
B2W.Neo3
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick540
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• FirePhoenix0
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler58
League of Legends
• Jankos1208
Upcoming Events
Maestros of the Game
5h 58m
ShoWTimE vs herO
Bunny vs Zoun
TBD vs Serral
TBD vs Classic
BSL Team Wars
7h 58m
Afreeca Starleague
22h 58m
Snow vs Sharp
Jaedong vs Mini
Wardi Open
23h 58m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 22h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 22h
Light vs Speed
Larva vs Soma
LiuLi Cup
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
[BSL 2025] Weekly
6 days
BSL Team Wars
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
SEL Season 2 Championship
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Polish World Championship 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.