EPTLaying down the Truth about SCII and Fun - Page 3
| Forum Index > Legacy of the Void |
|
Saggymidgetbooty6969
112 Posts
| ||
|
-StrifeX-
United States529 Posts
| ||
|
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On September 26 2015 09:50 Beastyqt wrote: Here's solution to all your problems: go back to playing brood war, sc2 =/= brood war. If you dislike it as much as you do and you wan't to change it to brood war, why bother? Just go install SC1 and play? Brood War was more popular? Are you joking? The only place Brood War was popular was Korea, while now Starcraft II is popular in most countries and it is the best RTS there is right now. I never understood people who wanted economy, game play or anything to be more like brood war, THIS ISN'T BROOD WAR GUYS IT'S STARCRAFT 2, play it or leave it. If I wanted to play brood war I know where to find it. I don't wanna play a game with all the changes you brought up and anyone who loves SC2 doesn't want those changes either. EDIT: You can't keep up with the game and you want Blizzard to make it super easy, no cloak units, any unit that is fast gets nerfed so it's in slow motion, harass units are useleses, etc. that's a shittier version of SC2. People from Blizzard aren't dumb, they understand game is becoming even harder in Legacy which is why they are introducing Archon mode, grab a friend and enjoy the game. At the end of the day, games are supposed to be for fun, if you don't enjoy it play something more casual and don't stress about it. I'm gonna skip the BW popularity discussion because it doesn't really matter now in 2015. But just one thing. This has nothing to do with easy or difficult. An easy game can be good or bad. A difficult game can be good or bad too. NOTHING to do with difficulty. There are things just missing from SCII because of op flying harass. For example, land routes and controlling terrain does not really matter. Prism bypass terrain, speedvacs can run through turrets, mutalisks bypass terrain. So instead of a game where you are controlling area and fighting across the map for good attack paths and such, you are just shift queuing drop ships all over the place. Harasscraft, legacy of the dropship. Where is the army movement? Where are the flanks? Where is the outmaneuvering? Where is creating three different squads of units and engaging on three different fronts? Where are the siege tank lines? Instead, you have one big blob of units and maybe 1 medivac or 1 prism flying around killing workers. Then the harass is so strong that you can't even move out-- the best bet is just sit on a big army on 3 bases and defend defend defend, and send your own little harass deathships in to kill his workers. Then you trade killing workers, and whoever kills more wins. This has nothing to do with easy or hard, casual or hardcore. Do you want armies fighting armies? Or workers running from harass specific units? Just look at the HotS and LotV cinematic. Is the cool part of the game killing workers with oracles? Maybe they should've shown that in the cinematic, just an oracle killing workers and widow mines killing workers. But no, they showed the giant Zerg army fighting a Terran marine tank army. They showed a zealots and high templar fighting zerglings and hydralisks. | ||
|
jalstar
United States8198 Posts
I'm gonna skip the BW popularity discussion because it doesn't really matter now in 2015. The quick answer is SC2 1v1, outside Korea, is/was much more popular than BW 1v1. The long answer involves a discussion of how customs made BW popular, and standalone, downloadable F2P games reduced demand for those customs. And then you'll go into Bnet 1.0 interface being better than Bnet 2.0, etc. | ||
|
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On September 26 2015 11:24 jalstar wrote: The quick answer is SC2 1v1, outside Korea, is/was much more popular than BW 1v1. The long answer involves a discussion of how customs made BW popular, and standalone, downloadable F2P games reduced demand for those customs. And then you'll go into Bnet 1.0 interface being better than Bnet 2.0, etc. Also the thing about BW creating esports and redefining video games. | ||
|
Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On September 26 2015 11:27 MrInocence wrote: Also the thing about BW creating esports and redefining video games. yeah that answer was already given. Keep in mind too, BW didn't have "esports" right of the bat as Sc2 did, hyped by it's persona's and supported by Blizzard. Esport was a thing that slowly was build up by the fans until the game was picked up by the KeSpa. In the foreigner scene the competetive always relied and still relies on the dedication of staff members, organizers and fans who make stuff happen. Naturally, the comparison falls short, because the means of popularization and involvement of the player base were so much different when Broodwar started. | ||
|
My_Fake_Plastic_Luv
United States257 Posts
| ||
|
BeStFAN
483 Posts
people talk about numerical things and tangible things because it is visible and quantifiable for all people to see. feeling is not easy. what is fun and what is frustrating is futile discussion this thread is just people's feelings and frustrations and sadness; it is not anything new to forum it is not discussion just your narcissism replies and others lol | ||
|
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
That's just how the starcraft community is. It's also why I try to avoid Team Liquid, that kind of attitude is accepted and encouraged here. | ||
|
jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On September 26 2015 12:00 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: I don't really understand why people don't want to be more inviting to beginners. Games are usually built bottom up. Here is a good example: chess. Simple, easy to understand, set rules, can be taught to a person in day, kids get interested, kids practice, kids become pro, introduce new ideas to game. This is how League of Legends got popular and Blizzard tried to replicate its success with Heroes of the Storm. | ||
|
crazedrat
272 Posts
| ||
|
Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
On September 26 2015 11:19 MrInocence wrote: I'm gonna skip the BW popularity discussion because it doesn't really matter now in 2015. But just one thing. This has nothing to do with easy or difficult. An easy game can be good or bad. A difficult game can be good or bad too. NOTHING to do with difficulty. There are things just missing from SCII because of op flying harass. For example, land routes and controlling terrain does not really matter. Prism bypass terrain, speedvacs can run through turrets, mutalisks bypass terrain. So instead of a game where you are controlling area and fighting across the map for good attack paths and such, you are just shift queuing drop ships all over the place. Harasscraft, legacy of the dropship. Where is the army movement? Where are the flanks? Where is the outmaneuvering? Where is creating three different squads of units and engaging on three different fronts? Where are the siege tank lines? Instead, you have one big blob of units and maybe 1 medivac or 1 prism flying around killing workers. Then the harass is so strong that you can't even move out-- the best bet is just sit on a big army on 3 bases and defend defend defend, and send your own little harass deathships in to kill his workers. Then you trade killing workers, and whoever kills more wins. This has nothing to do with easy or hard, casual or hardcore. Do you want armies fighting armies? Or workers running from harass specific units? Just look at the HotS and LotV cinematic. Is the cool part of the game killing workers with oracles? Maybe they should've shown that in the cinematic, just an oracle killing workers and widow mines killing workers. But no, they showed the giant Zerg army fighting a Terran marine tank army. They showed a zealots and high templar fighting zerglings and hydralisks. First you complain that "it's one big blob of units" and then you say "in trailer there's huge zerg vs protoss army!!", so you complain about it and you want it at same time.. ? What you are describing with drops and workers being killed and you can't leave base only happens in lower leagues, there isn't a game against any unit where I feel "oh shit I can't move out ever", just wait 20sec make a turret and you can leave your base. If I wanted slow, boring, position based game I'd play some turn based game instead. I don't understand why is it so hard to realize that if you don't like the game you can just play something you like, Blizzard will NEVER change the game the way you are asking and you are just making arguments for no reason. Where's the siege tank lines? - In every TvT match. Where is the army movement? - In every single game. Where are the flanks? - In every single ZvX game. Where is the outmaneuvering? - Counter attacks are happening all the time. Where is creating three different squads of units and engaging on three different fronts? - In every LotV game, but you probably don't even have it installed or otherwise you would know this. Do you want armies fighting armies? Or workers running from harass specific units? - There's an arcade game called "Desert Strike", you have income and people can't kill your workers and you can mass units, maybe you would enjoy playing that instead 1v1 ladder. | ||
|
skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On September 26 2015 12:13 MrInocence wrote: @My_Fake That's just how the starcraft community is. It's also why I try to avoid Team Liquid, that kind of attitude is accepted and encouraged here. Well now you simply sound like a troll. You created this post ostensibly to engage with the TL community, yet here you suggest that you'd rather avoid this community. Were you "try[ing] to avoid Team Liquid" when you posted this? I'm not going to try and take this thread seriously anymore. | ||
|
RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
On September 26 2015 12:13 MrInocence wrote: @My_Fake That's just how the starcraft community is. It's also why I try to avoid Team Liquid, that kind of attitude is accepted and encouraged here. Can you show me the exact posts where the TL community said bringing in new people was actively a bad idea? The problem is that you are framing your subjective opinions as capitalized 'Truth', like the truth hasn't been stated before until you came. I agreed with some of your thoughts and making the new player experience as inviting as possible is obviously the intention of the devs. But if you are saying that units like the banshee or reaper, that I consider fun, that I find rewarding to learn to play against, are unhealthy to the game... then you and the rest of us that you think are antagonizing you ("why I try to avoid Team Liquid" like a passive-aggressive literal child) are simply not compatible on the same spectrum of fun. Maybe learn some humility and back up our points with evidence instead of offering solutions to problems that aren't real. You might rally up enough support to push for something. | ||
|
aQuaSC
717 Posts
Frustration wise, that's the goal in every multiplayer/competitive game, especially in StarCraft - to win by taking chances to win from your opponent within boundaries of the game itself making him "frustrated" and leave the game. In my opinion - and probably I'm not alone - LotV does a great job so far at being "less frustrating" than HotS by making the battles last longer, giving you a lot more chances and time to micro, to back up and regroup. The games are overall more exciting and more action packed as Blizzard said they tried. And on top of that, there are a lot less chances to lose by a single mistake, like moving into an army instead of attack-moving and losing your entire fighting potential. What would taking out the Oracle , removing Medivac boost and reducing speed of Mutalisks give to the game? To never have an option to harass, by giving the defending player a lot more chances to scout and deny it completely? Should StarCraft really be all about head-on fights? Following that logic, maybe the game should have set, balanced amount of units from the start, tight lanes with no option to sneak into the base. Maybe then Blizzard could get some of the precious 12 year old viewers to pump up the viewer count on Twitch to make the game "relevant" again. | ||
|
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On September 26 2015 14:41 RoieTRS wrote: Can you show me the exact posts where the TL community said bringing in new people was actively a bad idea? The problem is that you are framing your subjective opinions as capitalized 'Truth', like the truth hasn't been stated before until you came. I agreed with some of your thoughts and making the new player experience as inviting as possible is obviously the intention of the devs. But if you are saying that units like the banshee or reaper, that I consider fun, that I find rewarding to learn to play against, are unhealthy to the game... then you and the rest of us that you think are antagonizing you ("why I try to avoid Team Liquid" like a passive-aggressive literal child) are simply not compatible on the same spectrum of fun. Maybe learn some humility and back up our points with evidence instead of offering solutions to problems that aren't real. You might rally up enough support to push for something. 1. Bringing in new people? Just read beastyqt above you. It says something along the lines of "Don't like it? Don't play it. Try tug-of-war arcade game or another rts instead. Starcraft is a hard game for hardcore gamers. WoL medivacs and mutalisks are super casual and easy. If you want a casual game go play Desert Strike." That's the attitude of a vast majority of Team Liquid. Doesn't seem very friendly to new people. 2. Subjective opinions on oracles and widow mines and larva banks and warpgate etc etc? Lots of people had subjective opinions about swarmhosts too. About colossus deathball. Maybe you thought those were fun as well. But it looks like blizzard agreed with those subjective views, that swarmhost spore forests were not fun, and that colossus deathballs were not fun. Look at what happened to those units in LotV. 3. If you want evidence that there are problems and the game is struggling, just look at sales numbers for WoL compared to HotS. Look at twitch viewership. When LotV comes out, look at LotV sales numbers. The November release date is obviously rushed before the game is ready, to meet quarterly expectations and the holiday season. 4. If anyone needs a lesson in humility, it's the elitists here that hate on "casuals". | ||
|
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On September 26 2015 14:03 skatbone wrote: Well now you simply sound like a troll. You created this post ostensibly to engage with the TL community, yet here you suggest that you'd rather avoid this community. Were you "try[ing] to avoid Team Liquid" when you posted this? I'm not going to try and take this thread seriously anymore. I joined TL five years ago and have been on here very very seldomly, only when I have something to share or when I want to learn. I don't like the elitest attitude here, so I avoid it. Now it seems like the lead designers, David Kim and friends, have hinted in the LotV community updates that they weigh teamliquid and pro opinions over pretty much everyone else's. They basically told the bnet forum community to go * themselves. I'm not a pro, so I have to resort to making threads on here like Filter to make an impact. I know it's a futile effort, but whatever. Least I can do is try. Let's see how LotV does. Initial sales, active playerbase after the initial hype, and twitch viewership. | ||
|
Draddition
United States59 Posts
On September 26 2015 16:00 MrInocence wrote: 1. Bringing in new people? Just read beastyqt above you. It says something along the lines of "Don't like it? Don't play it. Try tug-of-war arcade game or another rts instead. Starcraft is a hard game for hardcore gamers. WoL medivacs and mutalisks are super casual and easy. If you want a casual game go play Desert Strike." That's the attitude of a vast majority of Team Liquid. Doesn't seem very friendly to new people. 2. Subjective opinions on oracles and widow mines and larva banks and warpgate etc etc? Lots of people had subjective opinions about swarmhosts too. About colossus deathball. Maybe you thought those were fun as well. But it looks like blizzard agreed with those subjective views, that swarmhost spore forests were not fun, and that colossus deathballs were not fun. Look at what happened to those units in LotV. 3. If you want evidence that there are problems and the game is struggling, just look at sales numbers for WoL compared to HotS. Look at twitch viewership. When LotV comes out, look at LotV sales numbers. The November release date is obviously rushed before the game is ready, to meet quarterly expectations and the holiday season. 4. If anyone needs a lesson in humility, it's the elitists here that hate on "casuals". I think you missed the point entirely of beastyqt's post. We aren't saying no new players. We're saying SC2 is geared towards a certain gamer. It has a target audience, and that audience is one rarely targeted in today's market. We're simply saying, if you aren't within that audience, you aren't who the game is for. Simple as that. I'd even exaggerate that point to say- We're a small audience that often gets ignored. Let us at least have this one. As far as the diminishing player base, it happens. VERY few games are even played as long as SC2 has, regardless of expansions. We had a good run, and we're not stopping anytime soon- the latest WCS showed us that. In fact, our size is what makes us great. We're passionate, dedicated, and closely knit. | ||
|
PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On September 26 2015 11:19 MrInocence wrote: I'm gonna skip the BW popularity discussion because it doesn't really matter now in 2015. But just one thing. This has nothing to do with easy or difficult. An easy game can be good or bad. A difficult game can be good or bad too. NOTHING to do with difficulty. There are things just missing from SCII because of op flying harass. For example, land routes and controlling terrain does not really matter. Prism bypass terrain, speedvacs can run through turrets, mutalisks bypass terrain. So instead of a game where you are controlling area and fighting across the map for good attack paths and such, you are just shift queuing drop ships all over the place. Harasscraft, legacy of the dropship. Where is the army movement? Where are the flanks? Where is the outmaneuvering? Where is creating three different squads of units and engaging on three different fronts? Where are the siege tank lines? Instead, you have one big blob of units and maybe 1 medivac or 1 prism flying around killing workers. Then the harass is so strong that you can't even move out-- the best bet is just sit on a big army on 3 bases and defend defend defend, and send your own little harass deathships in to kill his workers. Then you trade killing workers, and whoever kills more wins. This has nothing to do with easy or hard, casual or hardcore. Do you want armies fighting armies? Or workers running from harass specific units? Just look at the HotS and LotV cinematic. Is the cool part of the game killing workers with oracles? Maybe they should've shown that in the cinematic, just an oracle killing workers and widow mines killing workers. But no, they showed the giant Zerg army fighting a Terran marine tank army. They showed a zealots and high templar fighting zerglings and hydralisks. If this is how you understand the game you should play the game more. | ||
|
xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
We don't need numbers to keep the game relevant. It's just a matter of GSL lowering it's quality to mobile and then more people will sub. And streamers can get a part time job to keep their income. Long life SC2. | ||
| ||
