|
I don't post on Team Liquid very often. Why? To put it simply, Team Liquid has always been more about making yourself better at the game, than making the game better. And I respect that.
But now with LotV on the horizon, Team Liquid has become a place where we can actually discuss making the game better. And so I am here.
------------------------
Team Liquid, your focus is wrong. Horribly wrong.
Let's be real, there are far more damaging problems this game faces than the clicks required to inject larva or mule.
In fact, macro mechanics changes were never about the clicks. It was never about casuals wanting less clicks and hardcore wanting more clicks. It was about the economic implications of less larva and so. Less larva banking would mean linear rather than burst zerg production, meaning you could have less tech switching, meaning certain zerg units could be rebalanced without the mass tech switch problem. But I digress.
And QXC, I'm looking at you with your updates. Your points are good. But they are a distraction. A distraction from the real issues. And with less than two months on the beta, we cannot afford to have distractions.
--------------
The real issue with this game. Fun.
Starcraft is a war game at its core. You are an intelligent, resourceful general, dueling with an opposing general of equal caliber. You extract resources, create armies, and fight across the map. That is Starcraft. That is a boy's dream game. That is why we love the game. That is fun.
There are increasing amounts of frustrations added in WoL, HotS, and LotV.
And, there are ways to make the game more fun that were not implemented.
-------------
How to make the game less frustrating
Let me address this with a stupidly simple Problem/Solution format. I will save you from the theory I was originally going to write up. At this point writing theory is not very useful.
Oh, and this addresses frustrations across all skill levels. I am a masters Terran, and I know that Starcraft players love their elitism, but you must empathize with lower league players. They are new players. You may think mass reaper is no big deal, but to a silver league player? Everyone has to start somewhere. There is no masters league, without silver league.
1. Oracles obliterate your worker line unless you have an exact defense. This pisses off casuals and hardcores alike, and even GSL level players have a hard time.
Solution: Oracles lose pulsar beam, and become an arbiter-like support utility unit.
2. Medivac boost can straight up kill you, or neuter your economy.
Solution: Heavily nerf or remove medivac boost.
3. Widow mines murder workers. They are also cloaked when burrowed.
Solution: Widow mines copy spider mines. They no longer target workers.
4. Speed mutalisks are so strong that they prompted the design team to create the Tempest and the Liberator and the spore crawler +bio buff to combat them.
Practical Solution: Remove the speed from mutalisks.
Ideal Solution: Also rework larva mechanics so mutalisk production is streamlined rather than a burst of 30 mutalisks at once.
5. Reapers are a stupid earlygame only unit that can snowball out of control. They are terrifying in lower leagues.
Solution: Remove their attack. Do what you will with their grenade, it doesn't matter.
6. Banshees are an invisible worker murdering air-to-ground nightmare that has plagued the TvT matchup since 2010. They are stronger in LotV. They are terrifying in lower leagues.
Solution: Banshees can no longer cloak.
7. Hellions and hellbats have hard countered light units and workers since 2010.
Practical solution:
Ideal solution: Make them single target, or less overbearing, like the vulture.
8. The cannon rush.
Solution: I don't have a solution, sorry.
9. Dark templar that can be warped in anywhere, in any number.
Solution: I don't have a solution, sorry.
10. Protoss coinflips.
Solution: This will be solved if the above are implemented.
11. Zerg tech switching into units that require different, specific counters. Ultralisks v. Broodlords v. Mutalisks for example.
Solution: Larva must be linear. Hatcheries should not be able to bank massive amounts of larva.
12. Terran ultra harassment.
Solution: This will be solved if the above are implemented.
These are the main issues. There are many more that I have not included.
As you can see, some problematic recurring themes are such:
- invisibility
- untouchable air units that shoot down
- requires specific counters too early in the game
-----------
How to make the game more fun
I am running out of time, so I'll make this brief. In order of importance.
1. Make Zerg the swarm again.
2. Air units should be relegated to a supporting role. Definitely not a strong air-to-ground role.
3. Terrain should matter again. Fighting over terrain, over paths of terrain, etc. Like in BW. This is partially achieved with weaker air units.
4. Armor should not be a weakness. Anti armored units should be toned down. Marauder/Immortal/Roach trifecta since WoL beta.
5. Units should be more core. Less moba style abilities. This way terrain and fighting will be more traditional. Adept shade is the definition of gimmicky. Make its model bigger, and make it function similar to a dragoon.
etc. All I have time for right now. Discuss.
|
There we go. The Fun Police has arrived (or the Fun Judge).
|
On September 26 2015 07:09 MrInocence wrote:
I am running out of time, so I'll make this brief. In order of importance.
1. Make Zerg the swarm again.
2. Air units should be relegated to a supporting role. Definitely not a strong air-to-ground role.
3. Terrain should matter again. Fighting over terrain, over paths of terrain, etc. Like in BW. This is partially achieved with weaker air units.
4. Armor should not be a weakness. Anti armored units should be toned down. Marauder/Immortal/Roach trifecta since WoL beta.
5. Units should be more core. Less moba style abilities. This way terrain and fighting will be more traditional. Adept shade is the definition of gimmicky. Make its model bigger, and make it function similar to a dragoon.
etc. All I have time for right now. Discuss.
Strangely, I agree with every single thing here and the overall idea of your post. But only like two of your balance changes make any sense to me. For instance: You really think reapers should be nerfed? I think they're a fantastic unit that serve a purpose in every matchup, but don't break anything.
|
I can't speak about others but I have WAY more fun with sc2 than with any other game. And that's not just since I made master league. even when I started playing as a silver scrub I had so much fun with the game that I hardly played anything else anymore. Maybe the problem is with you and not with the game.
|
8. The cannon rush.
Solution: I don't have a solution, sorry.
9. Dark templar that can be warped in anywhere, in any number.
Solution: I don't have a solution, sorry.
10. Protoss coinflips.
Solution: This will be solved if the above are implemented.
wat?
|
On September 26 2015 07:19 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 07:09 MrInocence wrote:
I am running out of time, so I'll make this brief. In order of importance.
1. Make Zerg the swarm again.
2. Air units should be relegated to a supporting role. Definitely not a strong air-to-ground role.
3. Terrain should matter again. Fighting over terrain, over paths of terrain, etc. Like in BW. This is partially achieved with weaker air units.
4. Armor should not be a weakness. Anti armored units should be toned down. Marauder/Immortal/Roach trifecta since WoL beta.
5. Units should be more core. Less moba style abilities. This way terrain and fighting will be more traditional. Adept shade is the definition of gimmicky. Make its model bigger, and make it function similar to a dragoon.
etc. All I have time for right now. Discuss. Strangely, I agree with every single thing here and the overall idea of your post. But only like two of your balance changes make any sense to me. For instance: You really think reapers should be nerfed? I think they're a fantastic unit that serve a purpose in every matchup, but don't break anything.
I smurf a bit in the lower leagues, and mass reaper/voidray/cannon rush openings are incredibly popular. You have to think from the perspective of someone who just got the game, then gets reaper rushed. They're almost like ground oracles, when someone gets more than two of them.
But what exactly is the point of a reaper? From my perspective, its more of a scouting tool than anything else. Using the same argument for the oracle, if it's primarily a scouting/utility tool, then why does it need an attack?
Another analogy. People using the MSC to scout. That's perfectly fine, but what if the MSC also 2shotted workers? Is that really necessary?
|
And with less than two months on the beta, we cannot afford to have distractions.
It doesn't matter. The design phase is over. It's about balancing the current state so tournaments like Dreamhack won't be an imbalanced mess.
|
I'm having fun with this game still.
|
On September 26 2015 07:26 MrInocence wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 07:19 hitpoint wrote:On September 26 2015 07:09 MrInocence wrote:
I am running out of time, so I'll make this brief. In order of importance.
1. Make Zerg the swarm again.
2. Air units should be relegated to a supporting role. Definitely not a strong air-to-ground role.
3. Terrain should matter again. Fighting over terrain, over paths of terrain, etc. Like in BW. This is partially achieved with weaker air units.
4. Armor should not be a weakness. Anti armored units should be toned down. Marauder/Immortal/Roach trifecta since WoL beta.
5. Units should be more core. Less moba style abilities. This way terrain and fighting will be more traditional. Adept shade is the definition of gimmicky. Make its model bigger, and make it function similar to a dragoon.
etc. All I have time for right now. Discuss. Strangely, I agree with every single thing here and the overall idea of your post. But only like two of your balance changes make any sense to me. For instance: You really think reapers should be nerfed? I think they're a fantastic unit that serve a purpose in every matchup, but don't break anything. I smurf a bit in the lower leagues, and mass reaper/voidray/cannon rush openings are incredibly popular. You have to think from the perspective of someone who just got the game, then gets reaper rushed. They're almost like ground oracles, when someone gets more than two of them. But what exactly is the point of a reaper? From my perspective, its more of a scouting tool than anything else. Using the same argument for the oracle, if it's primarily a scouting/utility tool, then why does it need an attack? Another analogy. People using the MSC to scout. That's perfectly fine, but what if the MSC also 2shotted workers? Is that really necessary?
So you're the worst kind of person on ladder?
|
On September 26 2015 07:22 Charoisaur wrote:
I can't speak about others but I have WAY more fun with sc2 than with any other game. And that's not just since I made master league. even when I started playing as a silver scrub I had so much fun with the game that I hardly played anything else anymore. Maybe the problem is with you and not with the game.
You are also posting on Teamliquid, of course you must like the game to be reviewing the game's fan site. I'm not trying to be condescending, I love the game too. That's why I'm here.
But think for a moment about the casuals or even semi serious players who were turned off because of oracles, DTs, mines, banshees, etc. Obviously they are not on teamliquid. They might not have even bought the game.
The numbers don't lie. HotS has less players than WoL. WoL has less players than BW.
|
On September 26 2015 07:28 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 07:26 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 07:19 hitpoint wrote:On September 26 2015 07:09 MrInocence wrote:
I am running out of time, so I'll make this brief. In order of importance.
1. Make Zerg the swarm again.
2. Air units should be relegated to a supporting role. Definitely not a strong air-to-ground role.
3. Terrain should matter again. Fighting over terrain, over paths of terrain, etc. Like in BW. This is partially achieved with weaker air units.
4. Armor should not be a weakness. Anti armored units should be toned down. Marauder/Immortal/Roach trifecta since WoL beta.
5. Units should be more core. Less moba style abilities. This way terrain and fighting will be more traditional. Adept shade is the definition of gimmicky. Make its model bigger, and make it function similar to a dragoon.
etc. All I have time for right now. Discuss. Strangely, I agree with every single thing here and the overall idea of your post. But only like two of your balance changes make any sense to me. For instance: You really think reapers should be nerfed? I think they're a fantastic unit that serve a purpose in every matchup, but don't break anything. I smurf a bit in the lower leagues, and mass reaper/voidray/cannon rush openings are incredibly popular. You have to think from the perspective of someone who just got the game, then gets reaper rushed. They're almost like ground oracles, when someone gets more than two of them. But what exactly is the point of a reaper? From my perspective, its more of a scouting tool than anything else. Using the same argument for the oracle, if it's primarily a scouting/utility tool, then why does it need an attack? Another analogy. People using the MSC to scout. That's perfectly fine, but what if the MSC also 2shotted workers? Is that really necessary? So you're the worst kind of person on ladder?
It was during the Blink/Oracle/DT coinflip era. Oh I made turrets he was going blink, I lose to stalkers. Oh I made bunkers instead of turrets, I lose to DTs. Of course I wasn't enjoying laddering.
It's also why I'm making this post.
|
Here is the ultimate solution to make the game more fun:
Change your mindset.
|
So this looks like basically a massive list of balance whine backed up by the justification that you personally don't find these things fun.
The reason that the threads that you're "calling out" are more productive is that they actually have arguments to engage with and discuss, rather than just plopping "I don't find this game fun. Discuss." into the middle of the general forum. Many people do find the game fun, and it's arrogant to assume that Blizzard; professional game designers, aren't considering whether or not their game is fun.
|
On September 26 2015 07:27 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote + And with less than two months on the beta, we cannot afford to have distractions. It doesn't matter. The design phase is over. It's about balancing the current state so tournaments like Dreamhack won't be an imbalanced mess.
I know. But I really love this game and hate to see it go down this route...
|
Dude, what are u trying to achieve 1,5 months before release? Even tho u are right, u are no realist.
|
On September 26 2015 07:30 MrInocence wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 07:22 Charoisaur wrote:
I can't speak about others but I have WAY more fun with sc2 than with any other game. And that's not just since I made master league. even when I started playing as a silver scrub I had so much fun with the game that I hardly played anything else anymore. Maybe the problem is with you and not with the game. You are also posting on Teamliquid, of course you must like the game to be reviewing the game's fan site. I'm not trying to be condescending, I love the game too. That's why I'm here. But think for a moment about the casuals or even semi serious players who were turned off because of oracles, DTs, mines, banshees, etc. Obviously they are not on teamliquid. They might not have even bought the game. The numbers don't lie. HotS has less players than WoL. WoL has less players than BW.
HotS has less players than WoL but I doubt it's cause of the game play. It's probably cause LoL and DoTA and CS came around and were amazing. WoL had stupid amounts of hype to it and it was the biggest esport till about 2011. I'm not sure if BW had more players than WoL either but BW was by far, a more frustrating game than WoL so you're just wrong.
This is just stupid though. The logic that if the game was easier people would play it means nothing when SC in particular has a high skill cap. If you remove all of those things, there are still going to be things for people to whine about and nothing is going to change.
|
On September 26 2015 07:35 Yonnua wrote:
So this looks like basically a massive list of balance whine backed up by the justification that you personally don't find these things fun.
The reason that the threads that you're "calling out" are more productive is that they actually have arguments to engage with and discuss, rather than just plopping "I don't find this game fun. Discuss." into the middle of the general forum. Many people do find the game fun, and it's arrogant to assume that Blizzard; professional game designers, aren't considering whether or not their game is fun.
1. I've played all three races. I admit the things I do as Terran such as mine drop are highly frustrating for the other player. Does that sound like balance whine to you?
2. This is the standard Team Liquid response. "Don't like it? Don't play it! Who cares if player numbers have been on a decline from BW -> WoL -> HotS -> LotV"
3. My arguments are based around the assumption that the overemphasis on game ending harassment, the coinflippy nature of Protoss, the mass tech switching nature of Zerg, and the hyperharass Terran are frustrating.
I didn't say the game wasn't fun.
|
On September 26 2015 07:37 Phaenoman wrote:
Dude, what are u trying to achieve 1,5 months before release? Even tho u are right, u are no realist.
At the beginning of the beta I remember people saying "Dont worry its just the beta everything's gonna be better at release"
|
On September 26 2015 07:41 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 07:30 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 07:22 Charoisaur wrote:
I can't speak about others but I have WAY more fun with sc2 than with any other game. And that's not just since I made master league. even when I started playing as a silver scrub I had so much fun with the game that I hardly played anything else anymore. Maybe the problem is with you and not with the game. You are also posting on Teamliquid, of course you must like the game to be reviewing the game's fan site. I'm not trying to be condescending, I love the game too. That's why I'm here. But think for a moment about the casuals or even semi serious players who were turned off because of oracles, DTs, mines, banshees, etc. Obviously they are not on teamliquid. They might not have even bought the game. The numbers don't lie. HotS has less players than WoL. WoL has less players than BW. HotS has less players than WoL but I doubt it's cause of the game play. It's probably cause LoL and DoTA and CS came around and were amazing. WoL had stupid amounts of hype to it and it was the biggest esport till about 2011. I'm not sure if BW had more players than WoL either but BW was by far, a more frustrating game than WoL so you're just wrong. This is just stupid though. The logic that if the game was easier people would play it means nothing when SC in particular has a high skill cap. If you remove all of those things, there are still going to be things for people to whine about and nothing is going to change.
First of all... easier? Not once did I say to make Starcraft easier. I said to tone down the frustrating points. That has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game.
Brood War was a more fun game. That's why it was more popular. Believe it or not fun games become popular games.
HotS has less players than WoL precisely because of gameplay. CounterStrike had a few players, then made the gameplay better and created the gambling system and became immensely popular.
LoL was gaining players because its gameplay was being improved every patch.
|
On September 26 2015 07:34 CheddarToss wrote:
Here is the ultimate solution to make the game more fun:
Change your mindset.
And this is the ultimate problem with team liquid.
"Don't like it? Too bad."
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
