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All these kind of discussion annoy the hell out of me because of people failing to understand basic concepts relating to game design and when a well known, helpful and strong player like beastyqt tries to explain the response is that isn't helpful to beginners.
I have seen similar things where pros would take the time to post tips and get ignored because apparently the pros and beginners are playing different games.
I won't try bashing my head against a wall too much and put some factual points supported by simple examples and people can feel free to ignore them, bash me and keep on whining or not as they see fit.
1. different types of games appeal to different people
eg. if you like a game there will be many people who do not, accept this and accept that a game simply may not be for you even if you like some aspects
2. within genres there are sub genres and different takes on those in turn
eg. Company of Heroes is also an RTS but some may hate it and love SC2 and vise versa. Each RTS will try to differentiate itself from others by focusing on different things ie CoH focused on unit positioning and maneuvering.
*as a side note LotV seems like it wants to take some cues from this style of RTS with less macro and more focus on micro of units and whether you think that is good or bad (pro tip its actually neither it will just make LotV a different kind of RTS) you need to understand that you are arguing for the game to changed into something more to your liking and if it were to happen others would be put off. Things you cite as bad/not fun etc are the aspect I do find fun
3. It's not the game its may be you
eg. some things that can be said to be frustrating and negatively impact the game are things like bugs or features that reasonably should exist but do not and make life difficult (i'm thinking of when there were no chat channels in the game) while things like getting frustrated at a build you haven't learned to deal with yet are more on you and are by definition part of competitive gaming. Take out the possibility for that to happen and you end up with a super boring game, in my opinion at least, where only one strategy can happen.
Ultimately your suggestions take away choice and options from players which is what defines the S in RTS
I don't go on the Gran Turismo forums (its a racing sim game) and complain that the game is too realistic to be fun and should lower the realism to be more appealing to noobs because for one its not a valid argument and secondly there are already racing games that are exactly what I want so I go and enjoy those instead. And while i'm sure there are fans of GT that mock players like me I don't care because im too busy having fun playing a game more suited to my tastes 
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Maybe you right, but in any matchup, in any league, you can get solutions for every situation and get better.
You're bronze protoss, and reaper killing all your mineral line? dont do fast expand, boost few stalkers, get 100 energy on MSC and it's allright....
Oracle is hurting your bronze SCV/DRONE's....Stay on 1 base, get spore/turret , get marines/2-3 queens, then expand safely... when you get mechanics to expand and defend from this easy things you promote...
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On September 26 2015 07:22 Charoisaur wrote:
I can't speak about others but I have WAY more fun with sc2 than with any other game. And that's not just since I made master league. even when I started playing as a silver scrub I had so much fun with the game that I hardly played anything else anymore. Maybe the problem is with you and not with the game.
Master players and above are like 5% of total playerbase. If blizzard cares about lots of people playing they should care a bit less about you. But their overwhelming focus on the 5% has been killing the game slowly for years.
Games like LoL and Dota2 have shown that even for esports it is more worthy to focus on most of the playerbase
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this post is just so meh
ban all harassment from game.. so we just have macro turtle. what you say is very biased as well,
you are terran and cant deal with zerg tech switch and protoss harassment,
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i have the ultimate solution for you: Starbow
Its a mod with new Units, untis removed and other changes from the community.
So its from the community for community!
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It's going to be good, but it's not going to be great until the next expansion. That's just how it goes. Make the best of it for the next 2 years. Then we might see real improvement.
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Just play my mod, it has pretty much everything you ask for.
OK, ad times is over. Carry on, carry on!
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The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion.
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Russian Federation66 Posts
since wol sc2 goes bad way. Yeah. Blizz goes for wtf-ability-units. They done a lot of "lot of clics" casts rather than tactical aoe like swarm/plague/irradiate/emp in bw or strategic single-target spell like lock-on/parasite/broodlings etc. Yeah, armored units are weaker units than no-any-text-units. Atm game is hard because it's full of hard to execute moments like intensive micro (terran), mass non-tactical, but must-have-to-be-activated abilities (toss) and just f2 zergs, but needed to spread creep and the hardest(lol) macro-mech injects. Too many things all (pros too) must do to just play a standart game. And all fail. And the winner is who fail some less.
Why just not make game complex of basics oportunities? The skill will be summary of how players deal with basics, how they combine them, how they dust them etc. Like in bw. Pretty simple units, w/o lots of abilities, but well stat-designed and balanced. Casters must be tactical aoe weapon - more like to disable, support large numbers of units or to disable infrastucture, not "8 snipes to kill 4 ht" or "30 clicks to 30 infesteds". Less hard-counters by ttx (vs armored/vs light/vs... etc), more tactical counters (mass low hp mmm < aoe lurkers < range of tanks < air-to-ground muta < aa marines < ...etc). Remove superior air-to-ground damage, make air more scouty, more mobile: like vikings into banshee+goliath combo with ability to land and harass. Etc. It will be much better for all.
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b-b--b-b-b-b-b-bbut if every other unit doesnt have a gimmick or an activatable ability how can it be fun to use them!
I also absolutely hate the design shift from BW to lotv.. There are too many units, too many units with activatable abilities etc
but that's no longer the opinion of the majority of RTS players, so what can you do, rip
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Agree with many things
Especially mines not targeting workers is a 100% must have! Really wondering why blizzard can't see and change such things by themselves. They probably haven't regognized that games randomly end when T drops 2-4 mines on P on progaming level. I bet this is what ppl expect to see when watching GSL.
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On September 26 2015 19:00 rockslave wrote:
The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion.
Yup. Which is why your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to endlessly e-riot until Blizzard concedes a decent custom games system instead of the current abomination. Because what you or the OP expect, you won't get it from the Blizzsters—who are very happy with the way LotV shapes up, and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase.
The sure thing is that mods will be the only kind of place where you can get the kind of gameplay described in the OP, so better campaign to have a viable environment for them to develop. Plus, it's better than those endless ideological debates/flame wars on forums. I mean, was there ever someone who was convinced by arguments from the other side anyway? The proof of the pudding is in the eating
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On September 26 2015 11:27 MrInocence wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 11:24 jalstar wrote:I'm gonna skip the BW popularity discussion because it doesn't really matter now in 2015. The quick answer is SC2 1v1, outside Korea, is/was much more popular than BW 1v1. The long answer involves a discussion of how customs made BW popular, and standalone, downloadable F2P games reduced demand for those customs. And then you'll go into Bnet 1.0 interface being better than Bnet 2.0, etc. Also the thing about BW creating esports and redefining video games.
lol, eSports was inevitable with or without BW. the big heavy lifter in Canada for eSports was EA NHL '94 Hockey... not Brood War. esports was also gonna happen with or without EA NHL 94 Hockey though.
technological improvements in the platforms of video games gave rise to esports... that is the root cause.. not 1 particular game. as technology improved a wave of fun and watchable games arrived in the 90s. no one is going to want to watch a Pong tournament.
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I liked some of your points, specifically the beginning when you said people focus too much on clicks and not the economical effects on macro mechanics. After that though, I almost thought the post was a parody there was so much whine and attempts at removing harrass from the game. Reapers? Come on man lol.
You can remove everything frustrating as you see fit but something new will always pop up and frustrate you because there can never be 2 winners in a game of Starcraft. Overcoming this frustration is what makes starcraft so amazing in the first place.
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Russian Federation66 Posts
You can remove everything frustrating as you see fit but something new will always pop up and frustrate you because there can never be 2 winners in a game of Starcraft. Overcoming this frustration is what makes starcraft so amazing in the first place.
in other games you can lose or win too, but u get fun while playing them. In sc2 u get fun only if u win - there is no fun in game itself. It's realy frustrating.
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Man, with that tone at the beginning I was thinking I wasn't gonna like it.
But I like it. Good changes, harassment is too strong and not fun at lower levels.
Too many hard-counter designs.
Seems like the macro boosters should be right up here with 'em. They're unfun apm sinks imo. 
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if macro boosters remain in the game then harassment must be strong in order to make it a viable strategy to use during a reasonable percentage of the games you play.
if they remove macro boosters then harassment options must be nerfed for all races.
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Great post @ OP. These could have been my words. I agree with everything you wrote.
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On September 26 2015 22:42 TheDwf wrote:
and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase.
don't try to go down the money road.
ATVI will make so little off of this game they are more concerned about protecting their brand than the tiny amount of cash this game will generate.
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On September 26 2015 22:42 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 19:00 rockslave wrote:
The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion. Yup. Which is why your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to endlessly e-riot until Blizzard concedes a decent custom games system instead of the current abomination. Because what you or the OP expect, you won't get it from the Blizzsters—who are very happy with the way LotV shapes up, and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase. The sure thing is that mods will be the only kind of place where you can get the kind of gameplay described in the OP, so better campaign to have a viable environment for them to develop. Plus, it's better than those endless ideological debates/flame wars on forums. I mean, was there ever someone who was convinced by arguments from the other side anyway? The proof of the pudding is in the eating
You ever think way down the road, maybe a couple years, LOTV slowly dies out and then the community just takes the aspects of it they like and changes what they don't like (a mod like yours or starbow) at it eventually catches on and a legit scene builds around that?
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EPT
