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Laying down the Truth about SCII and Fun - Page 9

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
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Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
September 30 2015 03:41 GMT
#161
On September 29 2015 17:10 insitelol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2015 16:41 Kranyum wrote:
However the growth of one game shows that newbies tend to stick around to playing it while the demise of the other show that people are more likely to quit.


That only proves a fact that people tend to like different things. The growth of the game (or any other thing: music genre, movie, social activity w/e) shows that it appeals to MOST people. Every1 loves soccer, only few play chess. Why on earth would you call it a problem?




More people like pop music than other music, does that make pop music better than other music, or does it make pop music just different than other music.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-30 04:35:51
September 30 2015 04:30 GMT
#162
Some of these ideas would definitely make the game less stressful.

Reapers don't need to attack workers or other units (unless I'm missing something related to early game defense, but that's probably something they could find a way around anyway), their main purpose is just scouting after all. I think it would be fine to take away their ability to attack units, but perhaps reduce their cost in return. Or maybe give them another ability, although it's mostly a scouting unit anyway. They could even make it really cheap and make it come out instantly with a single click once your orbital command finishes (e.g. "call down reaper", but not allow a player to make more than one at a time, so you have to remain active with it), that way there'd be no problem defending in the early game if you made one.

Oracles and widow mines can do too much damage at times. Making the oracle more of a utility unit is interesting. I'm not sure if removing their attack is a good thing, but maybe giving it a cooldown that prevents players from killing tons of workers would be a good thing. Like having to briefly charge up in place before each attack or something, but making that cost a resonable amount of energy so that you can't abuse it... I don't know.

There are definitely a lot of things worth considering. But realistically speaking, Blizzard has ignored many of the most reasonable sugestions, so asking them to consider redesigning certain units at this point is pointless.
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
insitelol
Profile Joined August 2012
845 Posts
September 30 2015 05:40 GMT
#163
On September 29 2015 23:23 Kranyum wrote:
Im not saying its a problem to be a niche game. Chess is a stable game in terms of players and a good niche at that. The problem is that Sc2 player numbers will not remain stable, it will decline because the game is not fun. And decline leads to death.

Yes, but your statement about Sc2 declining is an exaggeration. Both online and viewership numbers are stable throughout the years, only volatile during expansions releases.

On September 30 2015 12:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:
More people like pop music than other music, does that make pop music better than other music, or does it make pop music just different than other music.

Not sure i get ur idea on this one. Concepts of "good" and "bad" are purely subjective. So yes, judging from your point of view pop music is good for people that listen to it, though is may be bad for others.
Less is more.
loft
Profile Joined July 2009
United States344 Posts
September 30 2015 07:52 GMT
#164
War3 was fun, but had the demanding task of micro between 3 heroes, your army, items, etc.

The difficulty that RTS style brought caused a lot of people to quit.

Then DOTA came out and you could control 1 hero. This was so easy for many people. Now you could finally play War3, but with the ease of only micromanaging 1 hero instead of 3 + army.

The fact is that SC2 is very laborious and people will leave because of that.

All of the points made by OP require fast mechanical responses. So, just like War3 most will leave RTS for something easier. To relax while they play games with their friends.
fenix404
Profile Joined May 2011
United States305 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-30 09:20:46
September 30 2015 08:19 GMT
#165
^ this guy hit the nail on the head. "...most will leave RTS for something easier. To relax while they play games with their friends."

i say this at least once a day about team games to the few lan center buddies that understand it all.

most importantly, we don't want this game to sacrifice that it is not quite so "kick back with your friends" even in team setups. it is difficult to do things in this game because you can literally do anything you want. we are progressing in a manner that sacrifices some of that freedom for a perceived "accessibility" that is like a "can't catch the dragon" scenario. this game is and should forever be something that is very difficult at the higher ends. making the lower ends somehow less difficult while keeping the higher end difficulties does nothing to attract the players that do not even understand that you can deselect "your" unit. some do not even understand the concept of "unit". their champion is all they know. why aren't they called legends? and why aren't the dota heroes called defenders? at least dota has deselect and units and miss chance uphill too... oh wait... sorry, i digress.

we do not need to lower ourselves to attract these lesser players. new players are important and indeed should have a somewhat nurturing learning environment. this game, however is a learning by way of trial and error... and speedlings... and mutalisks. players will join if they see the core community as vibrant about the state of their most beloved game as ever. we will rave from the mountaintop about this game and i will spam it at the lan center for all to see. i can't do that right now. not in HotS, not in starbow, not broodwar, not LotV... i can't play because i can't see what the future intends for starcraft overall...

the state of starcraft is in such a flux for one major reason. every time we see these updates, it becomes more clear that the team is approaching their deadline. their pace will be increasing toward release. the disruptor model is nice with it's new voice. this means it is definitely in the game, and at this point will not be replaced by the reaver. the reaver is not the reason, don't worry. the issue is that the ONLY thing this dev team is bound to is their production code of "... one of our core philosophies on SC2 design is if the change isn't completely amazing, we prefer not to do it."; "...in general we believe the smallest changes possible that have the biggest impacts are the better designs in SC2" that's from a reddit AMA, and there are similar ones. so you're saying that if the change doesn't really have a huge impact, it's not worth it? a change is only a better design if it has a big impact? how does this even allow them to make a real change? i'm not a game developer, but if starbow can be what it is, then LotV should blow it out of the water. the game has science vessels and irradiate and arbiters... not mothership core, but still has boosters, and not on autocast...

+ Show Spoiler +

reddit link: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/20ck5s/david_kims_ama_and_why_fundamental_game_design/
there is a more recent one as well somewhere.


you cannot expect the community to grow if the core remaining members are not enthused about the fine details within the patch notes (i realize that is not only TL, reddit, b.net forums, etc.). the game isn't all that terrible, but it is faster, and even less forgiving now. it is even more micro intensive. protoss from HotS to LotV will receive 5 more activated abilites. 3 of them are on commonly used units within the main army. protoss always had an issue taking a third and beyond, which is game-ending to fail. no real attempts have been made here except the few recent warp-ins and pylon overcharge (which is easily used offensively now...). while we see images of a shield battery in the background of the "engineer's manual" preview, we hear not a word about this concept for multiplayer. what the hell else while be in campaign that can help protoss take an expansion besides the despised mothership core? they caved on the lurker after 5 years and a failed replacement, maybe they will give us the shield battery and lockdown/maelstrom 6 months after release? i doubt it.

my point is that we are to receive core units, but one is a harass unit, and the other replaces the colossus. our other core units, the immortal, grabs another ability, this time so essential it gets autocast; and the stalker hasn't been touched. minor changes in the stalkers stats must not be an exciting enough change i guess. a small change to stalker damage or toughness, at least in the later stages of the game, could do wonders for defending overall... but nothing has even been attempted, as if the stalker is fine like it is. its not just the stalker, but their direction. where are we going with this? are we going to release very similar to this?

their ideas for this expansion's main multiplayer could be so much more if they would just try actual drastic things. it bothers me that they patch this beta so slowly. we should see a new build every week with well over 4 new units for each race (most could be the already existent models like corsair, goliath, sci vessel, lurker, oh wait), miss chance uphill, many old abilities that are constantly tweaked, economy rate changes with minor tweaks to see if the different numbers work better, and the list could go on. we have only seen this new economy get a minor cap increase to its resource per base cap. the only other economic change is the starting point. so little, er, zero public testing has been done with the other economies, so little was done with no macro boosters, which was a beautiful thing to play for some odd reason imo. they new boosters aren't the worst thing, but they are much more like a supreme commander kind of RTS. see my above comments... trial and error... and speedlings.

the solutions still lie in brood war imo. there are roles that are missing still. i have harked on this so i'll just reiterate. search there for the missing roles, like lockdown, maelstrom, irradiate (FOR TERRAN, NOT ZERG), scourge, devourer's role, etc.
"think for yourself, question authority"
SCHRECKEN111
Profile Joined September 2015
13 Posts
September 30 2015 09:13 GMT
#166
I just can`t resist in attending this discussion. Firstly, i`m a noob. I play high gold for 4 seasons with the perspective max for low platin. That`s it - i got used to it. And the reason that many people complain about hots and lotv is exactly this : they didn`t accept the fact they aren`t masters
Let`s face the truth - it`s difficult but necessary. We are not pro-players - at least not in our mass and we will never be.
It`s very hard to accept - that you will play years in a game, dedicate thousends of hours of your time and the result won`t be visible. Because other players like you develop too - and the game is becoming even harder - I remeber when I start playing 2 years ago - bronze was really funny - people have 20 apm and build few units in first 10 minutes Now I play in silver at the moment and the average apm is 60-70 and most of people rush with a considerable army in 7-8 minute of the game.
You will say it`s not funny any more But it is - I love SC2 - because of this rush because from my 30-40 apm 2 years ago I reached 120-130 - and this is my limit - I`m 36 and play only 2-3 games a day so I`ll rather be worse than better.
But the fun of the game is, in my opinion, in this fact - that you have to engage all your abilities and skills to maintain the level of play - micro and macro - it is like a trans - i`m literally exhausted after my 2 matches in a row. And this is it. I`m afraid not many people will share this enthusiasm and its obvious it has to be like this.
And as a noob I can give only one recommendation for Blizzard. As most of us will remain low-skilled casual players with great ambitions please change ranking system.
I play Hearthstone and every day I have reward for playing - why in Starcraft its not possible ? why can`t we have 25 levels league - where you play only with your skill mate or only one ranking higher or lower - it would eliminate all this complaining about bad match making.
so remove mmr - introduce 25 league levels with legendary league too for pros and every league level can have its own portrait and give of course special bonus for advancing - maybe for example gold elements at buildings at some level ? or animations as a reward ? it all works in other game and this is what noobs expect - we will lose most of time and win only seldom so if we win give us a reward - something real.
and one other thing - please add easy way to remove a unit from a control group - it happens all the time that my probe is mixed with army and I have to create control groups again - sometimes in the middle of the battle ! don`t understand why it wasn`t solved earlier.
That`s all. gg
HaRuHi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
1220 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-30 09:26:54
September 30 2015 09:25 GMT
#167
On September 30 2015 18:13 SCHRECKEN111 wrote:
please add easy way to remove a unit from a control group - it happens all the time that my probe is mixed with army and I have to create control groups again - sometimes in the middle of the battle ! don`t understand why it wasn`t solved earlier.
That`s all. gg


Hey! There was a new group of hotkeys added, they are named add and take away, if you change your standard hotkeys to use these instead, then you can click on the probe and put it into another controll group and it will be removed. If you only play 1v1 it is the better setup overall imo, it might ruins archon mode though.

You could also always just shift+click on the probe when selectin your army and then you have all units but the probe selected, now hit ctrl-number to remake the controll group, I think that was the way I used to do it.
Kabras
Profile Joined June 2011
Romania3508 Posts
September 30 2015 11:28 GMT
#168
On September 30 2015 16:52 loft wrote:
War3 was fun, but had the demanding task of micro between 3 heroes, your army, items, etc.

The difficulty that RTS style brought caused a lot of people to quit.

Then DOTA came out and you could control 1 hero. This was so easy for many people. Now you could finally play War3, but with the ease of only micromanaging 1 hero instead of 3 + army.

The fact is that SC2 is very laborious and people will leave because of that.

All of the points made by OP require fast mechanical responses. So, just like War3 most will leave RTS for something easier. To relax while they play games with their friends.

pretty much this. the reason sc2 isn't popular is not because some in-game intricacies and how one unit or another works. it's because the entire rts genre isn't popular anymore since the new generations have so many alternative genres that are much easier to play and get into. rts games are hard to play compared to mobas, mmos and shooters. BW and WC3 had huge success because they were the best games of their time and had little competition in terms of games with a proper competitive scene. as far as being fun goes, it's not even close. there's nothing fun about building 60 workers, staring in fear at a dark map, getting supply blocked every minute for hundreds of games until you get out of wood league and get the hang of the game. nobody wants to go through that when they can download dota for free , pick one hero, go kill shit immediately and not lose the game the instant they make a mistake.
"So playing SF in pubs, everyone remember that a very important point is that when using a carry hero like this you must be very selfish. Because working with team mates is a very dangerous thing" - 2009
Haighstrom
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom198 Posts
September 30 2015 12:47 GMT
#169
The only one I agreed with was 10. Protoss coinflips.

The game shouldn't be auto-lose on a 4 player map if you scout them last.

Personally the solution to this I would like to see is that your opponent's exact starting position shown at the beginning.
cheekymonkey
Profile Joined January 2014
France1387 Posts
September 30 2015 13:00 GMT
#170
It's funny how people seem to be supportive of these weird changes, I can only image what kind of royal bashing blizzard would receive if they implemented any single one of them.
i_am_Nite
Profile Joined February 2012
Russian Federation66 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-30 14:17:38
September 30 2015 14:17 GMT
#171
try to play supcom:fa for a week guyz, then try sc2 again. You will learn sc2 isn't that good at macro and global strategy (over map), resourse managment etc. Also, there are great shift-managment in supcom (you can edit or remove actions you shifted in middle of shift query).
Currently sc2 is just "build some buildings"+ harass or be harassed + micro and mustactivateable abilities. And it cost tons of apm to execute. It's uncomfortable. Any missclick or missplay goes to punish you itself, if not by opponent. It's frustrating. Also, sc2 needs great map awareness and reaction to prevent die from few-second oracles/mines/hellions/lingruns overkills. Or lose you army in 2-3 sec storm. Etc.

I'm agree with:
1. harass too strong and gamble (if you defence - it's useless, if not - you behind or alrdy lose);
2. air forces too strong, and no enough mobile (mostly about terran); Look at bw - air must be mobile, scouty and fragile, but be able to dodge aa with maneurs.
3. macrobooster must be removed; They are musthave so there no realy need in them ingame (sounds fun, but truth). There are no choice play in musthave things.
4. too many wtf-doing units. WTF? Is it intertaining for new viewers? Hah, ofc no. Are they fun to play? Maybe. To play against them? Mostly no.
5. too many "hardcounters" (also 4. is part of 5.). Units must counter each other mostly economicly (outnumbered) and tacticaly (outrange, faster movement, fly, etc). Currently all game is like moba. 1-1. With 300 apm
deadmau
Profile Joined September 2010
960 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-03 17:40:12
October 03 2015 17:39 GMT
#172
17 year blizzard veteran. Protoss-only player. Masters League.

How to fix the game from Master League, Protoss-only veteran.

- Remove warpgate
- Rebalance gateway units

This will fix balance to SC2, and this will allow party games to be more fun. Remember BGH from BW? You can't play that in SC2 because of warpgates.

Former mapmaker on WarpGates, old thread well worth the read, as you can see I've known about this issue since many years ago...and it still hasn't been addressed.
www.teamliquid.net

As a mapmaker I can tell you that warp-in ruins a lot of concepts~

Apart from that it obviously has numerous negative effects on actual gameplay.
Would be happy if it was lategame tech or only worked at Warp-Prisms and the normal/early game production would be from normal Gateways.


I understand this game very well from a 1v1 perspective while also the old fun party matches of BW, and I thought SC2 could recreate all that under the new engine, but warpgates ruined big map distances. I can defend almost any early attack with a single pylon as a protoss partner.

- That's just not fair in a game like SC2, it ruins map making possibility AND game balance
- Is it worth it to keep this in the game for the sake of ruining balance and handicapping map-making balance?

Highly suggest this thread from 2012 for a perspective on why Removing Warpgates would fix the balance of the game, shoutout to SuzyQuark!.


I hear a lot of suggestions from Diamond and below players, I wish you guys understood the game better, this is really the issue here. Please get the word out to blizzard.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
October 03 2015 18:19 GMT
#173
I was enjoying the post until you decided to remove the attacks from the reaper and oracle while nerfing the crap out of mutalisk speed, medivac boost, removing banshee cloak potential (banshees are already never used against protoss in favor of Liberators), removing the defining feature of the hellion/hellbat (splash anti-light attack), etc. The mindset seemed alright until it turned into a bunch of gold league "i don't like this style of gameplay so remove it" remarks
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
October 03 2015 18:58 GMT
#174
On October 04 2015 02:39 deadmau wrote:
17 year blizzard veteran. Protoss-only player. Masters League.

How to fix the game from Master League, Protoss-only veteran.

- Remove warpgate
- Rebalance gateway units

This will fix balance to SC2, and this will allow party games to be more fun. Remember BGH from BW? You can't play that in SC2 because of warpgates.

Former mapmaker on WarpGates, old thread well worth the read, as you can see I've known about this issue since many years ago...and it still hasn't been addressed.
www.teamliquid.net

Show nested quote +
As a mapmaker I can tell you that warp-in ruins a lot of concepts~

Apart from that it obviously has numerous negative effects on actual gameplay.
Would be happy if it was lategame tech or only worked at Warp-Prisms and the normal/early game production would be from normal Gateways.


I understand this game very well from a 1v1 perspective while also the old fun party matches of BW, and I thought SC2 could recreate all that under the new engine, but warpgates ruined big map distances. I can defend almost any early attack with a single pylon as a protoss partner.

- That's just not fair in a game like SC2, it ruins map making possibility AND game balance
- Is it worth it to keep this in the game for the sake of ruining balance and handicapping map-making balance?

Highly suggest this thread from 2012 for a perspective on why Removing Warpgates would fix the balance of the game, shoutout to SuzyQuark!.


I hear a lot of suggestions from Diamond and below players, I wish you guys understood the game better, this is really the issue here. Please get the word out to blizzard.


It's funny, most of the major limiting factors of maps consist of protoss abilities. Warpgate, blink and forcefields prevent so many types of maps/map features that we could make otherwise. The only non-protoss thing that strongly affects maps is speedlings.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
MrBarryObama
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)141 Posts
October 04 2015 01:40 GMT
#175
Starcraft is not about fun. It's about being as difficult and intricate as possible so that when I say, "I play Starcraft," people think I'm smarter than them. It's certainly not about esports, because the most popular sports are simpler and enjoyed by all. Starcraft is a contest to master in lieu of enjoyment and real productivity.
i_am_Nite
Profile Joined February 2012
Russian Federation66 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 02:05:57
October 04 2015 02:00 GMT
#176
sc2 is not about how good players are, but who of them less missplays. It's not fun for an advanced viewer and most of players who get it. But some players think they are awesome no matter at what level they play.
Also sc2 is hard to understand for new players and noobie viewers - macro is'n simple enough with macro-mechs and limit-cost-effectivness. And fights and micro isn't simple too - it's full of "who do it first" and "scisors-paper-rock" moves. Not fun too.

dota, lol, cs is hard enough at pro level, but players enjoy it because this hardness is complex of simple things. They can learn them, dust them, understand them and combine them into something larger. Sc2 just full of already hard mechanics which can't be separated into smaller ones: split, mass casts, macro-mechs, etc. You need to dust them before u get understanding of matchup or all game yourself.
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2141 Posts
October 04 2015 02:08 GMT
#177
On October 04 2015 10:40 MrBarryObama wrote:
Starcraft is not about fun. It's about being as difficult and intricate as possible so that when I say, "I play Starcraft," people think I'm smarter than them. It's certainly not about esports, because the most popular sports are simpler and enjoyed by all. Starcraft is a contest to master in lieu of enjoyment and real productivity.

Why not? I enjoy watching Starcraft more than other esports precisely because it is more difficult and intricate, so the players' actions are more impressive.
vibeo gane,
Garemie
Profile Joined April 2011
United States248 Posts
October 04 2015 02:14 GMT
#178
This is pure gold. Excellent write up.
Bomber | CJ herO | Snute
( bush
Profile Joined April 2011
321 Posts
October 04 2015 03:53 GMT
#179
I still can't understand how an unit such as the oracle is in the game.
Your op rushes an oracle, you didnt rush a turret? GG.
I mean, you should be able to micro your way out of bad situations, like a skilled CS GO player can win a round in a 3vs1 scenario. But against oracles, there's no microing against an oracle rush. You just straight up die. A meaningless win for one and a frustrating loss for the other. And that's just one out of many examples.
oo
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
October 04 2015 04:20 GMT
#180
On October 04 2015 10:40 MrBarryObama wrote:
Starcraft is not about fun. It's about being as difficult and intricate as possible so that when I say, "I play Starcraft," people think I'm smarter than them. It's certainly not about esports, because the most popular sports are simpler and enjoyed by all. Starcraft is a contest to master in lieu of enjoyment and real productivity.


Bravo sir!

[image loading]

Just...

Bravo
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
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