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Laying down the Truth about SCII and Fun - Page 11

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
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Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
October 04 2015 17:22 GMT
#201
On October 04 2015 23:37 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 20:15 NarutO wrote:
On October 04 2015 20:08 i_am_Nite wrote:
On October 04 2015 19:23 NarutO wrote:
Broodwar was WAY harder compared to Starcraft 2. It was simply MORE BALANCED. Thats why it was more fun. I played broodwar for 10 years and was professional in it. It was really frustrating to lose, but you always KNEW why you lost. It felt different from Starcraft 2 - DUE TO BALANCE.

maybe it requires more apm, but it was easer to play. It was about how many u CAN DO while sc2 is how many U MISS. Bw was hard by it's UI and it's complex macroing (coz of ui), while sc2 comes with much friendly UI and pathing but the temp of the game, hard counters, game-ending harass, extreme economic with fast 200/200, few-second battles - it's full of out of control things.


Broodwar was a shit ton harder to play. All of the named stuff for Starcraft 2 makes it easier to play. You could have perfect macro and multitasking in broodwar was well, but you needed to do a lot more for it. If I want to spend 1000 minerals in Sc2 - I select my buildings with 1 key and build - in broodwar I select every building individually and build the unit.

I agree that hard counters and the faster pace of the game make for situations that are very unforgiving - those are not fun but they wont be changed without completely reworking the game.

Yeah brood war being easier to play than SC2, that's just funny. Not quite, it is way harder and more complex. SC2's main point of difficulty is knowledge of hard timing attacks & counters. In Bw there is more creativity, harder and more complex micro and macro. You have to keep thinking a lot more while you play, instead of follow the usual plan up to the last detail including how many of which unit at which second. It is not like that, it always depends on what happens in this particular match you are playing, you must change details, and of course that is harder and more fun, it's not just fixed knowledge execution. It is faster paced because there is generally more things going on on the map at a time or on a larger area and battles last longer so your attention is constantly demanded kind of everywhere, that's the main reason why you need more APM. I'm drawing this a bit hard against SC2, I know SC2 has some of those characteristics Starcraft has it is not zero but it is much less than is usually said I think, and they happen a lot more rarely in games whereas it is all the time in Starcraft. When I played SC2 I stopped when I realized every single game of it I played was less good than every single game I play in Starcraft. (I was in Master league, I'm about a B in Starcraft).

Tbh I think in Brood War if we would add building selection & production in groups like Starcraft 2 and also automine, it would save some time and make it just a bit more practical while not making the game much easier. I don't have any problem at all with group building select & prod in Starcraft 2, or automine, and I would say neither with being able to group all army in 1 group. Cause like OP said I really agree with that, its not about how many clicks but having a lot of clicks which are also decisions. If I hit 5Z6Z7Z8Z to produce 4 zealots I have made the same decision than if I hit 5ZZZZ so the latter system is better. It does not bring any limitation. Useless key hits go away. They should patch this into bw. The rest of the game is very hard anyway so we would just those extra little seconds on other things, and it would allow macroing out of more than 4-5 gates in mid game from a distance better and keep managing other things better... it won't make us suddenly be perfect. If anything being allowed time to think as well is definitely a good thing lawl. We have to remember they patched the rally point for buildings being doable with just right click instead of R + left click like 10 years after the game came out. This was a good change, it is a useless key hit. For pretty much the same reason I vouch for automine completely. Also I think the reason why 1A works too well in Starcraft 2 is because of the weak positional/movement game. If you implement 1A in Starcraft "noobs" will stop having headaches trying to move their army, and better players will still want to select smaller groups for positioning and for being able to select individual units in the UI at the bottom (so they would want to keep a 12~16 max group so as to have big enough squares to see & click fast at the bottom).

I don't believe Starcraft 2 has any chance of recovering of all the design faults it had from the start, and also I don't believe that Blizzard will ever be able to make great games again, they are a machine that responds to producers/shareholders now and all the skills are long gone, so it can't be a Starcraft 3. So, I think to play and improve Brood War... or some other game, or a Starcraft 3 if a skilled team is allowed to take the "rights" ^^


Actually, the reason BW was "balanced" was because it was hard for most players to actually be able to use units effectively. Bad designed got covered up by bad UI. So what if unit A was imba vs unit B, you'll never get to the critical mass where it matters anyway so yolo.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 21:14:15
October 04 2015 19:27 GMT
#202
[B]Actually, the reason BW was "balanced" was because it was hard for most players to actually be able to use units effectively. Bad designed got covered up by bad UI. So what if unit A was imba vs unit B, you'll never get to the critical mass where it matters anyway so yolo.

Funny^^ it is not true, you can have very good control of your army in bw. I could see the argument that in some cases control is a bit too hard for the game's own good, but not to that point. Specifically T can have it really hard on control sometimes with M&M (+ tanks + vessels + vultures, omg) it seems to me, TvZ seems somewhat nightmarish to me for this. As P I think control is totally manageable except maybe sometimes it feels too hard to manage spider mines with zealots sometimes (trying to prevent clumps of zeals to be hit by a single mine when engaging). Or placing a canon in the middle of probes can be quite annoying lol and you need to often. Critical mass doesn't mean as much in bw because positioning counters mass effectively, and there is no such hard counters viable as A > B;; armies almost never rely on only one unit and the purpose of one unit is almost never just to counter one of the other army's unit, they have more complex roles.

BW's balance is not perfect, from my P point of view I would say :
PvZ slightly favors Z;
and ZvZ is way too simple (I'd call it broken).

Also in ZvT the standard muta harass at start is way too common (that's actually because control of muta owns too much, so you see there is room for very very accurate control there^^)

But mostly the game is very well balanced, PvZ still provides plenty of possibilities, it's a great matchup just a little bit too hard for P to win I feel. Maybe there is a 5-10% favor for Z there.

Also wish there was a little bit more room for T to use M&M&Firebat in TvP but with templar's storm just can't see room for this in midgame, it is very rare. Generally there are a few units that it feels you see a bit too rarely in some matchups and its a shame. But overall the balance is rather solid. Only ZvZ's balance is not, if that makes sense.

I say this, even though I am not the best player at control. I've got ok control, can be very good in small army situations but sometimes a bit meh in large army situations. But a lot of the time I feel it is my fault and no the game's, because I am not very fast (I play on 160-200 apm approx, and sometimes I'm not that effective with these actions, could do more better with same apm). I'm still a good player because I am a bit more focused on thinking, game running.

(ok reaver's scarabs are broken)

PS : I remember Boxer saying this at one point in an interview, he said bw's balance is fine, if it was up to him he would only just maybe make zealot a little bit weaker and dragoon a little bit stronger. His opinion!
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