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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 26 2015 22:42 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 19:00 rockslave wrote:
The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion. Yup. Which is why your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to endlessly e-riot until Blizzard concedes a decent custom games system instead of the current abomination. Because what you or the OP expect, you won't get it from the Blizzsters—who are very happy with the way LotV shapes up, and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase. The sure thing is that mods will be the only kind of place where you can get the kind of gameplay described in the OP, so better campaign to have a viable environment for them to develop. Plus, it's better than those endless ideological debates/flame wars on forums. I mean, was there ever someone who was convinced by arguments from the other side anyway? The proof of the pudding is in the eating
Do you realize that big part of sold copies are played just in single player? Because I will buy LotV no matter what, I want the single player and if the MP is bad then I just won't play it.
It would be nice if all people here accepted the truth - SC2 is not about MP only. In fact I dare to say it;s more about SP than MP. So yeah, the game will have good selling numbers, because campaign. Deal with it.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 26 2015 11:19 MrInocence wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 09:50 Beastyqt wrote:On September 26 2015 07:49 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 07:41 Chaggi wrote:On September 26 2015 07:30 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 07:22 Charoisaur wrote:
I can't speak about others but I have WAY more fun with sc2 than with any other game. And that's not just since I made master league. even when I started playing as a silver scrub I had so much fun with the game that I hardly played anything else anymore. Maybe the problem is with you and not with the game. You are also posting on Teamliquid, of course you must like the game to be reviewing the game's fan site. I'm not trying to be condescending, I love the game too. That's why I'm here. But think for a moment about the casuals or even semi serious players who were turned off because of oracles, DTs, mines, banshees, etc. Obviously they are not on teamliquid. They might not have even bought the game. The numbers don't lie. HotS has less players than WoL. WoL has less players than BW. HotS has less players than WoL but I doubt it's cause of the game play. It's probably cause LoL and DoTA and CS came around and were amazing. WoL had stupid amounts of hype to it and it was the biggest esport till about 2011. I'm not sure if BW had more players than WoL either but BW was by far, a more frustrating game than WoL so you're just wrong. This is just stupid though. The logic that if the game was easier people would play it means nothing when SC in particular has a high skill cap. If you remove all of those things, there are still going to be things for people to whine about and nothing is going to change. First of all... easier? Not once did I say to make Starcraft easier. I said to tone down the frustrating points. That has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game. Brood War was a more fun game. That's why it was more popular. Believe it or not fun games become popular games. HotS has less players than WoL precisely because of gameplay. CounterStrike had a few players, then made the gameplay better and created the gambling system and became immensely popular. LoL was gaining players because its gameplay was being improved every patch. Here's solution to all your problems: go back to playing brood war, sc2 =/= brood war. If you dislike it as much as you do and you wan't to change it to brood war, why bother? Just go install SC1 and play? Brood War was more popular? Are you joking? The only place Brood War was popular was Korea, while now Starcraft II is popular in most countries and it is the best RTS there is right now. I never understood people who wanted economy, game play or anything to be more like brood war, THIS ISN'T BROOD WAR GUYS IT'S STARCRAFT 2, play it or leave it. If I wanted to play brood war I know where to find it. I don't wanna play a game with all the changes you brought up and anyone who loves SC2 doesn't want those changes either. EDIT: You can't keep up with the game and you want Blizzard to make it super easy, no cloak units, any unit that is fast gets nerfed so it's in slow motion, harass units are useleses, etc. that's a shittier version of SC2. People from Blizzard aren't dumb, they understand game is becoming even harder in Legacy which is why they are introducing Archon mode, grab a friend and enjoy the game. At the end of the day, games are supposed to be for fun, if you don't enjoy it play something more casual and don't stress about it. Where is the army movement? Where are the flanks? Where is the outmaneuvering? Where is creating three different squads of units and engaging on three different fronts? Where are the siege tank lines? Instead, you have one big blob of units and maybe 1 medivac or 1 prism flying around killing workers. .
Are you and I watching the same game? On a professional level, this sweeping generalization of SC2 has not held true for years.
If you're talking about a casual, 'playable' level, then you must understand that it is very nearly impossible for low-level players to accomplish intense multi-pronged play. Low-level players damn sure didn't play out four battles across six bases in Brood War, either. I understand what you're frustrated about and agree to some extent, but faulty assumptions and offensive generalizations really avail you nothing.
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On September 27 2015 00:28 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 22:42 TheDwf wrote:On September 26 2015 19:00 rockslave wrote:
The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion. Yup. Which is why your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to endlessly e-riot until Blizzard concedes a decent custom games system instead of the current abomination. Because what you or the OP expect, you won't get it from the Blizzsters—who are very happy with the way LotV shapes up, and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase. The sure thing is that mods will be the only kind of place where you can get the kind of gameplay described in the OP, so better campaign to have a viable environment for them to develop. Plus, it's better than those endless ideological debates/flame wars on forums. I mean, was there ever someone who was convinced by arguments from the other side anyway? The proof of the pudding is in the eating You ever think way down the road, maybe a couple years, LOTV slowly dies out and then the community just takes the aspects of it they like and changes what they don't like (a mod like yours or starbow) at it eventually catches on and a legit scene builds around that?
Sigaty stated they are supporting SC2 for another 10 years and willing to make big major changes to the game post release. With all the support Sigaty kept talking about its clear WCS is going to be around a long long time....more than "a couple years".
GL trying to supersede SC2 if Blizzard supports the game the way Sigaty is promising.
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On September 27 2015 00:28 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 22:42 TheDwf wrote:On September 26 2015 19:00 rockslave wrote:
The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion. Yup. Which is why your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to endlessly e-riot until Blizzard concedes a decent custom games system instead of the current abomination. Because what you or the OP expect, you won't get it from the Blizzsters—who are very happy with the way LotV shapes up, and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase. The sure thing is that mods will be the only kind of place where you can get the kind of gameplay described in the OP, so better campaign to have a viable environment for them to develop. Plus, it's better than those endless ideological debates/flame wars on forums. I mean, was there ever someone who was convinced by arguments from the other side anyway? The proof of the pudding is in the eating You ever think way down the road, maybe a couple years, LOTV slowly dies out and then the community just takes the aspects of it they like and changes what they don't like (a mod like yours or starbow) at it eventually catches on and a legit scene builds around that?
If you talk about a pro scene with tournaments and all, no. But there is no need for such thing. For instance, to my knowledge there is no SC1 or DotA 1 scene left outside of Asia, yet you can still find games quickly on BNet. No need for sponsors, streams, tournaments and all the e-fame/prestige fuss to enjoy a game. The only thing needed to maintain activity is a good custom games system so that players can find other players quickly within the client (especially for team games). Then the natural diversity of tastes will do some work and voilà.
(Also LotV's player base will shrink a lot faster than "a couple of years". In a matter of months I'm ready to bet that so many players will flee from the stressful rhythm + glaring balance issues + sheer unforgiveness + arid/frustrating gameplay combo.)
On September 27 2015 01:18 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 22:42 TheDwf wrote:On September 26 2015 19:00 rockslave wrote:
The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion. Yup. Which is why your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to endlessly e-riot until Blizzard concedes a decent custom games system instead of the current abomination. Because what you or the OP expect, you won't get it from the Blizzsters—who are very happy with the way LotV shapes up, and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase. The sure thing is that mods will be the only kind of place where you can get the kind of gameplay described in the OP, so better campaign to have a viable environment for them to develop. Plus, it's better than those endless ideological debates/flame wars on forums. I mean, was there ever someone who was convinced by arguments from the other side anyway? The proof of the pudding is in the eating Do you realize that big part of sold copies are played just in single player? Because I will buy LotV no matter what, I want the single player and if the MP is bad then I just won't play it. It would be nice if all people here accepted the truth - SC2 is not about MP only. In fact I dare to say it;s more about SP than MP. So yeah, the game will have good selling numbers, because campaign. Deal with it.
Do you realize there is no contradiction between what we said? Don't try to sound smart to state the obvious
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 27 2015 02:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 00:28 ShambhalaWar wrote:On September 26 2015 22:42 TheDwf wrote:On September 26 2015 19:00 rockslave wrote:
The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion. Yup. Which is why your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to endlessly e-riot until Blizzard concedes a decent custom games system instead of the current abomination. Because what you or the OP expect, you won't get it from the Blizzsters—who are very happy with the way LotV shapes up, and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase. The sure thing is that mods will be the only kind of place where you can get the kind of gameplay described in the OP, so better campaign to have a viable environment for them to develop. Plus, it's better than those endless ideological debates/flame wars on forums. I mean, was there ever someone who was convinced by arguments from the other side anyway? The proof of the pudding is in the eating You ever think way down the road, maybe a couple years, LOTV slowly dies out and then the community just takes the aspects of it they like and changes what they don't like (a mod like yours or starbow) at it eventually catches on and a legit scene builds around that? If you talk about a pro scene with tournaments and all, no. But there is no need for such thing. For instance, to my knowledge there is no SC1 or DotA 1 scene left outside of Asia, yet you can still find games quickly on BNet. No need for sponsors, streams, tournaments and all the e-fame/prestige fuss to enjoy a game. The only thing needed to maintain activity is a good custom games system so that players can find other players quickly within the client (especially for team games). Then the natural diversity of tastes will do some work and voilà. (Also LotV's player base will shrink a lot faster than "a couple of years". In a matter of months I'm ready to bet that so many players will flee from the stressful rhythm + glaring balance issues + sheer unforgiveness + arid/frustrating gameplay combo.) Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 01:18 deacon.frost wrote:On September 26 2015 22:42 TheDwf wrote:On September 26 2015 19:00 rockslave wrote:
The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion. Yup. Which is why your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to endlessly e-riot until Blizzard concedes a decent custom games system instead of the current abomination. Because what you or the OP expect, you won't get it from the Blizzsters—who are very happy with the way LotV shapes up, and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase. The sure thing is that mods will be the only kind of place where you can get the kind of gameplay described in the OP, so better campaign to have a viable environment for them to develop. Plus, it's better than those endless ideological debates/flame wars on forums. I mean, was there ever someone who was convinced by arguments from the other side anyway? The proof of the pudding is in the eating Do you realize that big part of sold copies are played just in single player? Because I will buy LotV no matter what, I want the single player and if the MP is bad then I just won't play it. It would be nice if all people here accepted the truth - SC2 is not about MP only. In fact I dare to say it;s more about SP than MP. So yeah, the game will have good selling numbers, because campaign. Deal with it. Do you realize there is no contradiction between what we said? Don't try to sound smart to state the obvious
It sounded to me that you implied that good selling number are based on MP. If I misunderstood you then accept my apology.
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On September 26 2015 17:21 TedBurtle wrote:
Maybe you right, but in any matchup, in any league, you can get solutions for every situation and get better.
You're bronze protoss, and reaper killing all your mineral line? dont do fast expand, boost few stalkers, get 100 energy on MSC and it's allright....
Oracle is hurting your bronze SCV/DRONE's....Stay on 1 base, get spore/turret , get marines/2-3 queens, then expand safely... when you get mechanics to expand and defend from this easy things you promote...
Do people here fail to understand that there are skill levels under the top of masters/gm?
So players have to devote thousands of hours, as I have, perfecting build orders and learning counters before they can even get to enjoy the game?
And that's what we have in TL... the people who actually devoted those thousands of hours despite many many frustrations. Myself included. I've played this game for five years now.
But you have to empathize with lower league, newer players. This game should not only be for the people who choose to devote thousands of hours and years to learn the game. However, the Team Liquid community is predominately made of people who have spent thousands of hours to learn the game.
With my reaper and other QoL improvements to lower leagues, I am trying to tone back the excessive power certain units have in the lower leagues, without compromising pro level play.
You cannot design a game for professional players only, and flip off the rest of the playerbase, telling them to L2P before they can have fun.
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On September 27 2015 02:29 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 02:12 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2015 00:28 ShambhalaWar wrote:On September 26 2015 22:42 TheDwf wrote:On September 26 2015 19:00 rockslave wrote:
The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion. Yup. Which is why your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to endlessly e-riot until Blizzard concedes a decent custom games system instead of the current abomination. Because what you or the OP expect, you won't get it from the Blizzsters—who are very happy with the way LotV shapes up, and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase. The sure thing is that mods will be the only kind of place where you can get the kind of gameplay described in the OP, so better campaign to have a viable environment for them to develop. Plus, it's better than those endless ideological debates/flame wars on forums. I mean, was there ever someone who was convinced by arguments from the other side anyway? The proof of the pudding is in the eating You ever think way down the road, maybe a couple years, LOTV slowly dies out and then the community just takes the aspects of it they like and changes what they don't like (a mod like yours or starbow) at it eventually catches on and a legit scene builds around that? If you talk about a pro scene with tournaments and all, no. But there is no need for such thing. For instance, to my knowledge there is no SC1 or DotA 1 scene left outside of Asia, yet you can still find games quickly on BNet. No need for sponsors, streams, tournaments and all the e-fame/prestige fuss to enjoy a game. The only thing needed to maintain activity is a good custom games system so that players can find other players quickly within the client (especially for team games). Then the natural diversity of tastes will do some work and voilà. (Also LotV's player base will shrink a lot faster than "a couple of years". In a matter of months I'm ready to bet that so many players will flee from the stressful rhythm + glaring balance issues + sheer unforgiveness + arid/frustrating gameplay combo.) On September 27 2015 01:18 deacon.frost wrote:On September 26 2015 22:42 TheDwf wrote:On September 26 2015 19:00 rockslave wrote:
The problem with mods is that they are very inconvenient to play. You have small player bases and there's no matchmaking, it's really hard to be evenly matched.
If I could switch my SC2 version to Starbow in options, then just hit the matchmaker, I'd probably switch. In fact, if I could switch it to "Brood War with MBS", I wouldn't even think.
And yes, that's my opinion. Yup. Which is why your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to endlessly e-riot until Blizzard concedes a decent custom games system instead of the current abomination. Because what you or the OP expect, you won't get it from the Blizzsters—who are very happy with the way LotV shapes up, and will sell hundreds of thousands of copies regardless of how unplayable the game will be on the long term for most of the playerbase. The sure thing is that mods will be the only kind of place where you can get the kind of gameplay described in the OP, so better campaign to have a viable environment for them to develop. Plus, it's better than those endless ideological debates/flame wars on forums. I mean, was there ever someone who was convinced by arguments from the other side anyway? The proof of the pudding is in the eating Do you realize that big part of sold copies are played just in single player? Because I will buy LotV no matter what, I want the single player and if the MP is bad then I just won't play it. It would be nice if all people here accepted the truth - SC2 is not about MP only. In fact I dare to say it;s more about SP than MP. So yeah, the game will have good selling numbers, because campaign. Deal with it. Do you realize there is no contradiction between what we said? Don't try to sound smart to state the obvious It sounded to me that you implied that good selling number are based on MP. If I misunderstood you then accept my apology.
If blizzard really wanted to reap from Starcraft's MP, it can simply look at other MP based games and copy their revenue models. The boxed game expansion pack revenue model is a way to make money off campaigns, not excellent multiplayer.
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On September 26 2015 23:54 i_am_Nite wrote:Show nested quote +You can remove everything frustrating as you see fit but something new will always pop up and frustrate you because there can never be 2 winners in a game of Starcraft. Overcoming this frustration is what makes starcraft so amazing in the first place. in other games you can lose or win too, but u get fun while playing them. In sc2 u get fun only if u win - there is no fun in game itself. It's realy frustrating.
A little exaggerated, but this is what we're trying to say.
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On September 27 2015 01:43 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 11:19 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 09:50 Beastyqt wrote:On September 26 2015 07:49 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 07:41 Chaggi wrote:On September 26 2015 07:30 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 07:22 Charoisaur wrote:
I can't speak about others but I have WAY more fun with sc2 than with any other game. And that's not just since I made master league. even when I started playing as a silver scrub I had so much fun with the game that I hardly played anything else anymore. Maybe the problem is with you and not with the game. You are also posting on Teamliquid, of course you must like the game to be reviewing the game's fan site. I'm not trying to be condescending, I love the game too. That's why I'm here. But think for a moment about the casuals or even semi serious players who were turned off because of oracles, DTs, mines, banshees, etc. Obviously they are not on teamliquid. They might not have even bought the game. The numbers don't lie. HotS has less players than WoL. WoL has less players than BW. HotS has less players than WoL but I doubt it's cause of the game play. It's probably cause LoL and DoTA and CS came around and were amazing. WoL had stupid amounts of hype to it and it was the biggest esport till about 2011. I'm not sure if BW had more players than WoL either but BW was by far, a more frustrating game than WoL so you're just wrong. This is just stupid though. The logic that if the game was easier people would play it means nothing when SC in particular has a high skill cap. If you remove all of those things, there are still going to be things for people to whine about and nothing is going to change. First of all... easier? Not once did I say to make Starcraft easier. I said to tone down the frustrating points. That has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game. Brood War was a more fun game. That's why it was more popular. Believe it or not fun games become popular games. HotS has less players than WoL precisely because of gameplay. CounterStrike had a few players, then made the gameplay better and created the gambling system and became immensely popular. LoL was gaining players because its gameplay was being improved every patch. Here's solution to all your problems: go back to playing brood war, sc2 =/= brood war. If you dislike it as much as you do and you wan't to change it to brood war, why bother? Just go install SC1 and play? Brood War was more popular? Are you joking? The only place Brood War was popular was Korea, while now Starcraft II is popular in most countries and it is the best RTS there is right now. I never understood people who wanted economy, game play or anything to be more like brood war, THIS ISN'T BROOD WAR GUYS IT'S STARCRAFT 2, play it or leave it. If I wanted to play brood war I know where to find it. I don't wanna play a game with all the changes you brought up and anyone who loves SC2 doesn't want those changes either. EDIT: You can't keep up with the game and you want Blizzard to make it super easy, no cloak units, any unit that is fast gets nerfed so it's in slow motion, harass units are useleses, etc. that's a shittier version of SC2. People from Blizzard aren't dumb, they understand game is becoming even harder in Legacy which is why they are introducing Archon mode, grab a friend and enjoy the game. At the end of the day, games are supposed to be for fun, if you don't enjoy it play something more casual and don't stress about it. Where is the army movement? Where are the flanks? Where is the outmaneuvering? Where is creating three different squads of units and engaging on three different fronts? Where are the siege tank lines? Instead, you have one big blob of units and maybe 1 medivac or 1 prism flying around killing workers. . Are you and I watching the same game? On a professional level, this sweeping generalization of SC2 has not held true for years. If you're talking about a casual, 'playable' level, then you must understand that it is very nearly impossible for low-level players to accomplish intense multi-pronged play. Low-level players damn sure didn't play out four battles across six bases in Brood War, either. I understand what you're frustrated about and agree to some extent, but faulty assumptions and offensive generalizations really avail you nothing.
Short answer is land routes, controlling land, paths of reinforcement, and chunks of army are not that important because 1. harass is super strong 2. most common forms of harass come through the air, completely ignoring land
Multi pronged-- The prongs are seldomly chunks of army, that need to move by land to get into an aggressive position. The prongs are now mostly harass-ships, or doom drops.
In the end terrain, fighting over land, finding reinforcement paths, etc doesn't really matter when
1. killing workers as fast as possible is the name of the game
2. nearly everything good at killing workers is fast and flying.
Now from WoL -> HotS -> LotV, harass and air have been power creeping to incredible levels.
WoL: medivacs, warpgate,
Hots: oracle, mine, speed boost, speed muta
LotV: Tank pickup, prism range and warpin speed, SH, Liberator, adept shade (we asked for a damn core unit, not a phase shifting protoss reaper)
TL;DR
Harass is overshadowing army movement and positioning. Most of that movement is now for anticipating and deflecting harass, not to take ground or secure areas. Most harass is now speedy and from the air, exacerbating the problem.
i.e. Armies fly swatting dropships vs. Armies fighting other armies
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On September 26 2015 07:41 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 07:30 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 07:22 Charoisaur wrote:
I can't speak about others but I have WAY more fun with sc2 than with any other game. And that's not just since I made master league. even when I started playing as a silver scrub I had so much fun with the game that I hardly played anything else anymore. Maybe the problem is with you and not with the game. You are also posting on Teamliquid, of course you must like the game to be reviewing the game's fan site. I'm not trying to be condescending, I love the game too. That's why I'm here. But think for a moment about the casuals or even semi serious players who were turned off because of oracles, DTs, mines, banshees, etc. Obviously they are not on teamliquid. They might not have even bought the game. The numbers don't lie. HotS has less players than WoL. WoL has less players than BW. HotS has less players than WoL but I doubt it's cause of the game play. It's probably cause LoL and DoTA and CS came around and were amazing. WoL had stupid amounts of hype to it and it was the biggest esport till about 2011. I'm not sure if BW had more players than WoL either but BW was by far, a more frustrating game than WoL so you're just wrong. This is just stupid though. The logic that if the game was easier people would play it means nothing when SC in particular has a high skill cap. If you remove all of those things, there are still going to be things for people to whine about and nothing is going to change.
BW was nowhere near as frustrating as SC2. I never smashed my desk or slammed a door after playing BW for hours. I can't say the same for SC2.
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I definitely disagree with the idea of slowing mutalisks down. I could however understand large damage nerfs to the Mutalisk, Oracle, and Liberator, at least vs light units, and removal of speed boost on medivac.
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Thank you for your opinion and effort to improve SC2.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. All of your points is about specific aspects of the game which can be frustrating sometimes, but that doesn't make the game less fun. Being frustrated because of x unit or y strategy is understandable, but that frustration equating to less fun is only from your point of view. These aspects aren't fun if you don't know how to deal with it, but that doesn't mean there are zero means of handling them.
Blizzard built solutions to all the aspects of frustration you listed, and no doubt you already know and utilize some of them. The true fun comes from realizing/learning the solutions.
Your truths aren't absolute, they are only true to yourself and others. I find them untrue.
This is only my opinion, and you can disagree as I have disagreed with you. If you wish, you can agree to disagree, and we can end this discussion. Or you can reply with a reasonable comment, and I will make an effort to continue the discussion.
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Fun is subjective, the kind of game you want to make isn't Starcraft. There should be frustrating moments.
If people are too frustrated to play 1v1, removing Cloaked Banshees or Oracles isn't going to change that. There will just be new frustrations to whatever you die to instead. That's ok though, the game can be successful without the majority of the playerbase focusing on competitive 1v1 at first.
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Welp, everyone has their own opinion. I don't agree with OP, I enjoy starcraft both as a spectator and as a player. I guess that's why I don't get all the LotV change threads etc......
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I get it, OP. I do! You're suggesting radical changes that will just shift the frustration to other things--essentially, your suggestions would break the game in unforeseeable ways, and then another you--or you again--would post this same exact thread with another list.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On September 26 2015 07:09 MrInocence wrote:
Team Liquid, your focus is wrong. Horribly wrong.
On September 26 2015 07:30 MrInocence wrote:
You are also posting on Teamliquid, of course you must like the game to be reviewing the game's fan site.
On September 26 2015 07:51 MrInocence wrote:
And this is the ultimate problem with team liquid.
"Don't like it? Too bad."
On September 26 2015 08:54 MrInocence wrote:
But seeing as how TL is made of mostly semi-casual (ranking and improving) , semi-hard core (masters?), hard core (tries to hit top masters/gm), and professional players (gm), only the things that affect them matter.
On September 26 2015 12:13 MrInocence wrote:
@My_Fake
That's just how the starcraft community is. It's also why I try to avoid Team Liquid, that kind of attitude is accepted and encouraged here.
On September 26 2015 16:00 MrInocence wrote:
That's the attitude of a vast majority of Team Liquid. Doesn't seem very friendly to new people.
On September 26 2015 16:19 MrInocence wrote:
I joined TL five years ago and have been on here very very seldomly, only when I have something to share or when I want to learn. I don't like the elitest attitude here, so I avoid it.
On September 27 2015 02:32 MrInocence wrote:
And that's what we have in TL... the people who actually devoted those thousands of hours despite many many frustrations. Myself included. I've played this game for five years now.
Confirmed. The Team Liquid community is fucking awesome. <3
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On September 27 2015 01:43 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2015 11:19 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 09:50 Beastyqt wrote:On September 26 2015 07:49 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 07:41 Chaggi wrote:On September 26 2015 07:30 MrInocence wrote:On September 26 2015 07:22 Charoisaur wrote:
I can't speak about others but I have WAY more fun with sc2 than with any other game. And that's not just since I made master league. even when I started playing as a silver scrub I had so much fun with the game that I hardly played anything else anymore. Maybe the problem is with you and not with the game. You are also posting on Teamliquid, of course you must like the game to be reviewing the game's fan site. I'm not trying to be condescending, I love the game too. That's why I'm here. But think for a moment about the casuals or even semi serious players who were turned off because of oracles, DTs, mines, banshees, etc. Obviously they are not on teamliquid. They might not have even bought the game. The numbers don't lie. HotS has less players than WoL. WoL has less players than BW. HotS has less players than WoL but I doubt it's cause of the game play. It's probably cause LoL and DoTA and CS came around and were amazing. WoL had stupid amounts of hype to it and it was the biggest esport till about 2011. I'm not sure if BW had more players than WoL either but BW was by far, a more frustrating game than WoL so you're just wrong. This is just stupid though. The logic that if the game was easier people would play it means nothing when SC in particular has a high skill cap. If you remove all of those things, there are still going to be things for people to whine about and nothing is going to change. First of all... easier? Not once did I say to make Starcraft easier. I said to tone down the frustrating points. That has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game. Brood War was a more fun game. That's why it was more popular. Believe it or not fun games become popular games. HotS has less players than WoL precisely because of gameplay. CounterStrike had a few players, then made the gameplay better and created the gambling system and became immensely popular. LoL was gaining players because its gameplay was being improved every patch. Here's solution to all your problems: go back to playing brood war, sc2 =/= brood war. If you dislike it as much as you do and you wan't to change it to brood war, why bother? Just go install SC1 and play? Brood War was more popular? Are you joking? The only place Brood War was popular was Korea, while now Starcraft II is popular in most countries and it is the best RTS there is right now. I never understood people who wanted economy, game play or anything to be more like brood war, THIS ISN'T BROOD WAR GUYS IT'S STARCRAFT 2, play it or leave it. If I wanted to play brood war I know where to find it. I don't wanna play a game with all the changes you brought up and anyone who loves SC2 doesn't want those changes either. EDIT: You can't keep up with the game and you want Blizzard to make it super easy, no cloak units, any unit that is fast gets nerfed so it's in slow motion, harass units are useleses, etc. that's a shittier version of SC2. People from Blizzard aren't dumb, they understand game is becoming even harder in Legacy which is why they are introducing Archon mode, grab a friend and enjoy the game. At the end of the day, games are supposed to be for fun, if you don't enjoy it play something more casual and don't stress about it. Where is the army movement? Where are the flanks? Where is the outmaneuvering? Where is creating three different squads of units and engaging on three different fronts? Where are the siege tank lines? Instead, you have one big blob of units and maybe 1 medivac or 1 prism flying around killing workers. . Are you and I watching the same game? On a professional level, this sweeping generalization of SC2 has not held true for years. If you're talking about a casual, 'playable' level, then you must understand that it is very nearly impossible for low-level players to accomplish intense multi-pronged play. Low-level players damn sure didn't play out four battles across six bases in Brood War, either. I understand what you're frustrated about and agree to some extent, but faulty assumptions and offensive generalizations really avail you nothing.
I pre-ordered as soon as it was available, because I know I'm going to have fun enough for my money's worth on the campaign. But I do wish that I had more fun with the multiplayer. I don't agree with all of his points, and I agree with almost none of his solutions, but I do feel that he's half right about his accusations. There are a lot of ways that I can end up losing a game or an engagement that just doesn't feel fun, and that's a problem that feels like it's gotten worse in HotS than WoL, and worse in what I've played of LotV than HotS.
I don't agree with his implications that radical changes need to be made, or even that any units need to be removed. But if WMs didn't 1-shot Drones and Probes with splash, the times that a Terran manages to clear out an entire mineral line wouldn't feel so insultingly unfair. I'd feel like I'm being given a fair shot at counterplay if it takes more than one mistake to receive "terrible terrible damage". 2-shotting workers seems fair. 1-shotting, no.
Oracles are very frustrating to lose against, and they can completely lock down certain playstyles in a really ugly way. They wouldn't need to have their attack removed, but I think it's pretty clear that it destroys things way too fast. Once again, moving to a number of shots required to kill workers that is higher than the current state of affairs seems wise. Especially important is that they don't slaughter Marines like they do. Almost all of these complaints can be dealt with by implementing measured, reasonable changes.
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You all forget two important things:
1. Over half of the people who buy any version of Starcraft, buy it for the campaign only.
2. Many more people played customs in BW than they did ladder.
I think the biggest mistake with SC2 was they did not treat Arcade seriously at the start and lost their playerbase. It's too late to save it now, the players have all gone to LoL just like me 
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There is only one way to make something fun.
Tell your audience a narrative, tell them who they are in that narrative, and only allow them to do things that help push that narrative.
Example:
You are an individual warrior in a large scale battle. => MOBA
You are a general guiding your armies to war => Chess
Spending thousands of words talking about balance is just stupid overall when the discussion should be about fun.
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SC is losing players because there are so many other great games out there; competition is fierce.
BTW I disagree with most of the proposed changes and wanted to voice that.
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EPT
