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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On September 20 2015 09:02 K)Vincent wrote: sorry but if you still mid master after 4 years then you understand nothing of this game... That is some of the most defective logic I have encountered on TL. You are gm? And even if you are, you are still wrong. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On September 20 2015 09:02 K)Vincent wrote: sorry but if you still mid master after 4 years then you understand nothing of this game... About 95% of the people that play or played this game were never mid masters or have since dropped from mid masters. By that logic unless your presently a GM you know nothing of the game? | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On September 20 2015 06:08 Spyridon wrote: And if Zerg really is too easy to macro (which from playing both Terran and Zerg, I disagree) then that should be a balance issue rather than a design issue. Design should be focused on making the games features, feel, controls, mechanic, etc feel as good as possible. Then balance adjusts how "easy and hard" everything is. That's not true, though. Hypothetical scenario time: Let's invent a brand new WarCraft RTS, Humans vs Orcs. Humans have units and buildings, and Orcs don't. The way Humans win the game is by having perfect macro for twenty minutes straight. The way Orcs win the game is at the end of that twenty minutes, they flip a coin. If the coin comes up heads, Orcs win. If the coin comes up tails, Orcs lose. Now make Humans really really hard to play. Often Humans will fail to macro properly (50/50) and often Orcs' coinflip will come out tails (50/50), giving us a perfect 50/50 winrate. Our hypothetical game is perfectly balanced. But it's horrendously designed, because, apart from not being any fun at all, playing Humans takes a shitton of skill, while playing as an Orc doesn't take any skill at all. Balance CANNOT make up for shitty game design. It's that sort of thinking that actually got us into a lot of the problems we have in SC2 5 years down the line. "We'll just make a MSC unit that has three one-button solutions for everything that's wrong with the Protoss race!" We all know how that turned out. Photon Overcharge - it doesn't matter how skilled the Protoss is or the Terran is, for the next minute, the Terran cannot attack the Protoss. Recall - it doesn't matter how skilled the Protoss is or the Zerg is, the Protoss can get all of his units out of any surround at the click of a button. Binary outcomes at the touch of a button. First you make the game mechanically sound. Then you balance it into 50/50 form. Never the other way around. All we've had from WOL to the end of HOTS* was professional 50/50ing, but the game was never mechanically sound across the board to start, and the 50/50 bullshit has just exasperated existing problems, because now that Blizz really wants to fix those problems, what are they supposed to do with the band-aid solutions already in the game? Are they just supposed to remove the MSC? Completely retool it? It's a shitton of extra work, and they don't want to be doing it, so they don't. *with exception of WMs (more or less successful at forcing Zerg mechanical response) and Oracles (total failure at forcing Protoss not to deathball, because the deathball didn't get any weaker). | ||
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MaximilianKohler
122 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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K)Vincent
Belarus29 Posts
On September 20 2015 09:13 ShambhalaWar wrote: That is some of the most defective logic I have encountered on TL. You are gm? And even if you are, you are still wrong. yes I am gm, after 2 years of playing and I want an hard game like BW was, not an easy game | ||
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flipstar
226 Posts
On September 20 2015 09:02 K)Vincent wrote: sorry but if you still mid master after 4 years then you understand nothing of this game... No need to apologize, shitty logic from an unknown random doesn't really hurt me in the feels. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On September 20 2015 10:07 K)Vincent wrote: yes I am gm, after 2 years of playing and I want an hard game like BW was, not an easy game HOTS gm or LOTV? What pro team you play on? I mean if its that easy, you must be like rank 10 or better right? | ||
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Jaedrik
113 Posts
On September 19 2015 16:43 sd_andeh wrote: No, sir, not at all.Amazing how divided the community is. I for one wouldn't like macro mechanics being automated. It feels like cheating even, to me. And then there are people like you, most likely bronze-silver players who loves the idea of having everything automated for them so they can only focus on their army. But I really think that's the wrong direction, as on the highest level, two professional players focusing only on their army will be a very bad thing. On that level, player's micro mechanics and positioning are close to flawless, which means you need other mechanics in the game to separate the two and actually determine who the better player is. You have to realize that good players WANT to do more things than just control their army. StarCraft is beautiful that way - there's ALWAYS something you can do better/faster. Macro mechanics help that further, raising the skill ceiling and helps the better player actually show that he is better. I wonder, a year ago, would people like you not purchase the next expansion if everything wasn't automated? Isn't that a very new concept? I mean the sentence sounds really really weird to me. "I won't purchase LotV unless the macro mechanics are fully automated". That sounds so uber weird to me. Look, I'm no scrub. I don't blame other people or the game for my failures. I don't blame people for cheesing. I will honor the man who plays to win and whoops me with whatever mechanics or boosters there are found in a game. I want my opponent to break my knee backwards and throw sand in my eyes. I'm a Melee lover: camping with puff, chaingrabs, waveshine to jab upsmash or shinespikes, whatever, they're all legit even if I suck at or against them. The only real problem with the universal design of the game is l-canceling, but it doesn't share the first few problems that the macro boosters do that I listed about universal skill imbalance. I'd much prefer that the macro boosters of SC2 were entirely removed, though. Sir, if you read the post a few down from the one you quoted ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/495037-community-feedback-update-september-18#14 ), you will see my honest, design-based objections to Blizzard's decision and macro boosters as a whole. I bid you, instead of attacking me or my decisions to do what I please with my money (I've got no special loyalty, nor should anybody, in that sense I'm not part of the "community,") or calling my character into question, take issue with the position I formally hold. It also happens I believe SC2 in general doesn't have sufficient avenues or deep mechanics to provide good players with enough of the satisfaction and fun that comes with skill mastery, but we should focus on removing the shallow elements of bad design first lest they impede the others with their importance. On September 19 2015 14:25 Excalibur_Z wrote: Masterfully put, sir. :DI'm stunned at the backpedaling of the Inject Larva change. Completely stunned. Not the fact that it happened, because any experiment can turn out to fail, but the reason why it happened. I was having a discussion with some friends earlier about the game design behind Starcraft 1. Back in those days, Blizzard operated as a black box. Cross-sections of employees from various departments formed what were called "Strike Teams", and their job was to deliver feedback and suggestions to the designers. The designers, in turn, weighed that feedback and made decisions based upon whether the change made sense or not. One of my friends was on the Starcraft Strike Team and got the Overlord speed reduced from normal to the skycrawling blimp we all know. The Internet has since evolved as a communication tool. It's faster than ever to post something up on Facebook or Twitter or Reddit, it literally takes seconds. You don't have to take minutes to register on some obscure message board where something may disappear into obscurity, you instead spend a few seconds cobbling something together and vomit it out and tag some company accounts that you know. So, it's a lot more tempting for developers to seek out crowdsourced feedback because it's so readily available -- players are eager to voice their opinions! There's an inherent risk in doing this because the quality of that feedback can vary, and even the most popular ideas can be detrimental to the game experience. That decision is ultimately left up to the designers, as it should be. I don't know how extensive the Blizzard Strike Teams are anymore. I don't know how heavily their opinions are weighed now compared to in the past. I do know that Blizzard actively reaches out to the community for input, and that's no idle gesture. Would some community member's suggestion to slow SC1 Overlords down to their current speed have gotten the attention of the devs today? Who knows? The real dangerous precedent that I see is that the Larva Inject backpedal goes a step beyond community influence. The change was reverted because of a perception that may or may not have permanence. When SC2 was in early development, it went through wild shifts until eventually macro mechanics came into being. A lot of the community balked at this decision, calling it needless clicking and a chore -- especially regarding the Inject mechanic. There was a huge uproar about it. Now players can't see the game without it. It's a bizarre situation. If Blizzard had gone through with the Inject change and it made it into the live LotV game, players would have adapted to it. It's what they do. But, because maybe some Zerg players could be possibly ridiculed as unskilled noobs by toxic trolling players, they reverted the change. It's a policy change born from fear, the way I see it. For better or for worse, this never would have happened 20 years ago. Absolutely no chance. | ||
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CptMarvel
France236 Posts
On September 20 2015 09:26 pure.Wasted wrote: That's not true, though. Hypothetical scenario time: Let's invent a brand new WarCraft RTS, Humans vs Orcs. Humans have units and buildings, and Orcs don't. The way Humans win the game is by having perfect macro for twenty minutes straight. The way Orcs win the game is at the end of that twenty minutes, they flip a coin. If the coin comes up heads, Orcs win. If the coin comes up tails, Orcs lose. Now make Humans really really hard to play. Often Humans will fail to macro properly (50/50) and often Orcs' coinflip will come out tails (50/50), giving us a perfect 50/50 winrate. Our hypothetical game is perfectly balanced. But it's horrendously designed, because, apart from not being any fun at all, playing Humans takes a shitton of skill, while playing as an Orc doesn't take any skill at all. Balance CANNOT make up for shitty game design. It's that sort of thinking that actually got us into a lot of the problems we have in SC2 5 years down the line. "We'll just make a MSC unit that has three one-button solutions for everything that's wrong with the Protoss race!" We all know how that turned out. Photon Overcharge - it doesn't matter how skilled the Protoss is or the Terran is, for the next minute, the Terran cannot attack the Protoss. Recall - it doesn't matter how skilled the Protoss is or the Zerg is, the Protoss can get all of his units out of any surround at the click of a button. Binary outcomes at the touch of a button. First you make the game mechanically sound. Then you balance it into 50/50 form. Never the other way around. All we've had from WOL to the end of HOTS* was professional 50/50ing, but the game was never mechanically sound across the board to start, and the 50/50 bullshit has just exasperated existing problems, because now that Blizz really wants to fix those problems, what are they supposed to do with the band-aid solutions already in the game? Are they just supposed to remove the MSC? Completely retool it? It's a shitton of extra work, and they don't want to be doing it, so they don't. *with exception of WMs (more or less successful at forcing Zerg mechanical response) and Oracles (total failure at forcing Protoss not to deathball, because the deathball didn't get any weaker). Excellent post. Excellent. Though while most of SC2 has been a complete failure design-wise (and that should come as undeniable to anyone who's played the game since the beginning) they did get some things right tbh. I think the whole Terran race wasn't subject to that many problems over the years and has always been fun to play/watch. Zerg and Protoss have however ranged from barely decent (Zerg most of the time) to god awful horrendous (Protoss all the time). I don't know what to say anymore. I, like a lot of RTS-accustomed people, have been soundly complaining about the game's design ever since 010 and NOTHING substantial has happened. I stopped playing two years ago and have since watched SC2 dig its own grave. I had high hopes for LotV when it was announced but the way Blizzard handled this beta is, I'm afraid, the nail in the coffin. Oh how this company has fallen... | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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Jaedrik
113 Posts
On September 20 2015 11:14 NKexquisite wrote: This isn't just about balance--this is about universal design.I like the thought that one TL poll should be the end all, be all on a balance issue... If the game were balanced purley on TL polls, well... LOL Nice attempt at a reductio ad absurdum though. I appreciate it, it's a very powerful tool, but it doesn't apply properly in this case, as that's not the premise or principle people are going off of when they refer to the fact that the majority of players clearly enjoyed the game more when the boosters were entirely removed. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On September 20 2015 11:09 CptMarvel wrote: Excellent post. Excellent. Though while most of SC2 has been a complete failure design-wise (and that should come as undeniable to anyone who's played the game since the beginning) they did get some things right tbh. I think the whole Terran race wasn't subject to that many problems over the years and has always been fun to play/watch. Zerg and Protoss have however ranged from barely decent (Zerg most of the time) to god awful horrendous (Protoss all the time). I don't know what to say anymore. I, like a lot of RTS-accustomed people, have been soundly complaining about the game's design ever since 010 and NOTHING substantial has happened. I stopped playing two years ago and have since watched SC2 dig its own grave. I had high hopes for LotV when it was announced but the way Blizzard handled this beta is, I'm afraid, the nail in the coffin. Oh how this company has fallen... I completely agree about the races. Terran honestly plays a lot like BW Terran did, sure losing a couple key points like science vessel play and tanks haven't been in good shape much of the time, but overall they are a lot like BW Terran with some new upgrades. As of WoL beta and ever since then, Zerg and Protoss however, are basically different races. They tried to "make the races more unique" but in the process lost the essence of each race. Even their art and music became completely different styles. Funny how as time went on Zerg in HotS and LotV, almost everything added to the race in expansions except Ravagers was basically arere-implementing all the mechanics Zerg had in BW exactly, but lost in the transation to SC2. Think about it... Hydra move speed, Ultralisks being stronger, "Dark Cloud", Lurkers... All things that Zerg should have had since the beginning! And Protoss, they have stuffed mechanics that were not well-received down Protoss players faces for years... The design should have stuck with the overall essence of SC1, just giving some upgrades on top of that. Rather then weakening the essences of each race and trying to turn SC into something that feels foreign to the players following the series, unless if you are Terran. Then it feels somewhat reminiscent. | ||
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MaximilianKohler
122 Posts
On September 20 2015 10:03 ROOTFayth wrote: did you buy HOTS? I waited for a few years for it to go on sale for $10, then I bought it for the campaign only. I'll likely do the same with lotv. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18063 Posts
On September 20 2015 11:09 CptMarvel wrote: Excellent post. Excellent. Though while most of SC2 has been a complete failure design-wise (and that should come as undeniable to anyone who's played the game since the beginning) they did get some things right tbh. I think the whole Terran race wasn't subject to that many problems over the years and has always been fun to play/watch. Zerg and Protoss have however ranged from barely decent (Zerg most of the time) to god awful horrendous (Protoss all the time). I don't know what to say anymore. I, like a lot of RTS-accustomed people, have been soundly complaining about the game's design ever since 010 and NOTHING substantial has happened. I stopped playing two years ago and have since watched SC2 dig its own grave. I had high hopes for LotV when it was announced but the way Blizzard handled this beta is, I'm afraid, the nail in the coffin. Oh how this company has fallen... ATVI and Blizzard are doing just fine. the nail in the coffin would be extending the development cycle and putting more resources into something that is not even going to make $0.1 Billion in revenue no matter what they do. the dumbest thing Blizzard could do is put its best guys and more resources into the financial black hole that is the RTS genre. the executive producer in an interview at WCS stated that he doesn't see anything from Blizzard replacing SC2 for at least 10 years. steering resources away from the financial black hole that is the RTS genre is a smart move. Blizzard is slowly and consistently pulling back from the genre. There isn't much demand. 1994 - WC1, 1995 - WC2 , 1998 - SC1 , 2002 - WC3 , 2010 - SC2 no replacement for SC2 until 2025 at the earliest. Blizzard isn't "falling" .. Blizzard is leaving. | ||
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CptMarvel
France236 Posts
On September 20 2015 15:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: ATVI and Blizzard are doing just fine. the nail in the coffin would be extending the development cycle and putting more resources into something that is not even going to make $0.1 Billion in revenue no matter what they do. the dumbest thing Blizzard could do is put its best guys and more resources into the financial black hole that is the RTS genre. the executive producer in an interview at WCS stated that he doesn't see anything from Blizzard replacing SC2 for at least 10 years. steering resources away from the financial black hole that is the RTS genre is a smart move. Blizzard is slowly and consistently pulling back from the genre. There isn't much demand. 1994 - WC1, 1995 - WC2 , 1998 - SC1 , 2002 - WC3 , 2010 - SC2 no replacement for SC2 until 2025 at the earliest. Blizzard isn't "falling" .. Blizzard is leaving. What I meant in falling is that they used to be able to make high quality games. Obviously... not anymore. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On September 20 2015 10:07 K)Vincent wrote: yes I am gm, after 2 years of playing and I want an hard game like BW was, not an easy game Cool story. Unfortunartely old BW elitists are the minority, and unless you pay *100000 the purchasing price of the average player, there isn't money in making a game just for you. | ||
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K)Vincent
Belarus29 Posts
On September 20 2015 10:56 ShambhalaWar wrote: HOTS gm or LOTV? What pro team you play on? I mean if its that easy, you must be like rank 10 or better right? hots, I play for TES, so? Honestly a guy who is stucked in mid master for 4 years saying "I want auto-inject" hurts my ears... no offence | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 20 2015 18:04 K)Vincent wrote: hots, I play for TES, so? Honestly a guy who is stucked in mid master for 4 years saying "I want auto-inject" hurts my ears... no offence Honestly, a gm stepping out of the shadows to bash on people is either a fraud or socially incompetent... No offence. | ||
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K)Vincent
Belarus29 Posts
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