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look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2
Yeh, that's the problem with your argumentation. Your making up your own facts that aren't true. League of Legends is by far the most succesful MOBA.
but about prize pools
Which is a ridiclous and irrelevant metric. This is due to a difference in business model of Dota and LOL. But this high price pool doens't benefit anyone but pro players.
I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game
Again rewriting facts so they fit your head. Heroes of the Storm isn't a failed game. Surely much more played than Sc2, but ofc not as played as LOL and Dota, but that would also be a ridicilous criteria.
More importantly, however, is that you aren't differenating between easy to learn and difficult to master. Inject is problematic as that raises the learning barrier significantly, whereas the game can obtain a higher skillcap in different ways. The issue with Heroes of the Storm is that it's easy to learn easy to master.
It's fine that you have the opinion you have, but stop rewriting facts and setting up ridiclous criteria. When you tell midmasters that they know nothing about the game you come out as a dumb elitists whom every game designer should absolutely ignore since you have no logical skills and can't analyze anything remotely objectively.
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Actually Heroes of the Storm is the most popular MOBA. Not in terms of active players, viewership or any other relevant metrics, but in terms of live games shown on ESPN.
#fanboy argumentation.
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Was gonna respond, but a mighty dane has already replied excellently. Please don't waste too much time on him though, he's either a troll, stupid or both.
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On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear
I somewhat agree with you on elitism but :
1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2
2. You come off as a douchebag
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On September 19 2015 04:24 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 04:18 Big J wrote:
so blizzard lets the community bully them around once more. With these kind of updates... They are literally asking for it. "We saw the poll but screw it, we are keeping things what WE like"
Lol that poll is super small sample. Why do u assume only people in TL plays sc2 lol
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On September 20 2015 20:04 CptMarvel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear I somewhat agree with you on elitism but : 1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2 2. You come off as a douchebag
Ha he does and I think there are certainly ways to make the game harder and more interesting than injects. People tend to forget that Zerg macro by design should be easier. They also have to manage economy and the balance of units v drones, creep spread, and fending off early harass which is typical to slow the Zerg economy.
If you want a more difficult game than find features like creep spread to include. It creates an interesting dynamic, easy to see if doing it well both as a player and viewer, and as a player if you aren't great spreading creep it isn't auto lose it just becomes something to work on that would improve your play.
At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery. That way you could inject without looking at base just put all queens on one hot key and hit inject and they would all then inject the nearest hatch. You'd still have to remember to inject but make it slightly less mechanically tough especially later in the game with several queens.
But ultimately I just feel like you could get rid of inject keep queens for defense and creep and find a more interesting way to make Zerg tough if needed. And if Zerg macro is too easy without injects you can make the units less powerful to balance. Zerg should be cheap units streaming across the map. Zerg macro should be easy by design not made artificially hard with injects just for the sake of making things hard.
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France24237 Posts
On September 20 2015 20:44 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 20:04 CptMarvel wrote:On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear I somewhat agree with you on elitism but : 1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2 2. You come off as a douchebag At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery.
I kinda like this idea. I wonder if you can put it into practice without too many problems.
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On September 20 2015 20:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 20:44 FLuE wrote:On September 20 2015 20:04 CptMarvel wrote:On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear I somewhat agree with you on elitism but : 1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2 2. You come off as a douchebag At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery. I kinda like this idea. I wonder if you can put it into practice without too many problems.
If you go back to old inject... nothing easier than that. No clue why anyone who was against autoinject wouldnt be againt that for the exact same reasons though.
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France24237 Posts
On September 20 2015 21:00 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 20:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 20:44 FLuE wrote:On September 20 2015 20:04 CptMarvel wrote:On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear I somewhat agree with you on elitism but : 1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2 2. You come off as a douchebag At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery. I kinda like this idea. I wonder if you can put it into practice without too many problems. If you go back to old inject... nothing easier than that. No clue why anyone who was against autoinject wouldnt be againt that for the exact same reasons though.
thing is it's not the same, you still have to perform the cycle and time it well. I think it would be a best of both worlds solution.
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On September 20 2015 21:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 21:00 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 20:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 20:44 FLuE wrote:On September 20 2015 20:04 CptMarvel wrote:On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear I somewhat agree with you on elitism but : 1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2 2. You come off as a douchebag At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery. I kinda like this idea. I wonder if you can put it into practice without too many problems. If you go back to old inject... nothing easier than that. No clue why anyone who was against autoinject wouldnt be againt that for the exact same reasons though. thing is it's not the same, you still have to perform the cycle and time it well. I think it would be a best of both worlds solution.
You dont have to switch screens so it's supereasy to do with a queen controlgroup, the queen is still playing the game for you automatically by performing a targetsearch+walk+cast action. So regardless whether one hated it for the "difficulty reason" or the "automation is catagorically bad reason", both are in full effect here.i guess difficultywise its ever so slightly harder than fully automated.
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France24237 Posts
On September 20 2015 21:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 21:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:00 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 20:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 20:44 FLuE wrote:On September 20 2015 20:04 CptMarvel wrote:On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear I somewhat agree with you on elitism but : 1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2 2. You come off as a douchebag At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery. I kinda like this idea. I wonder if you can put it into practice without too many problems. If you go back to old inject... nothing easier than that. No clue why anyone who was against autoinject wouldnt be againt that for the exact same reasons though. thing is it's not the same, you still have to perform the cycle and time it well. I think it would be a best of both worlds solution. You dont have to switch screens so it's supereasy to do with a queen controlgroup, the queen is still playing the game for you automatically by performing a targetsearch+walk+cast action. So regardless whether one hated it for the "difficulty reason" or the "automation is catagorically bad reason", both are in full effect here.i guess difficultywise its ever so slightly harder than fully automated.
I fall into the category of guys that really disliked the full automation, because the player was literally not involved anymore. It's not the same here. Everyone keeps saying how easy it is to produce continuously as T even during huge battles, but we still see production gaps in the best players' tabs. I would at least like that solution to be tested.
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On September 20 2015 21:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 21:08 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 21:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:00 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 20:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 20:44 FLuE wrote:On September 20 2015 20:04 CptMarvel wrote:On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear I somewhat agree with you on elitism but : 1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2 2. You come off as a douchebag At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery. I kinda like this idea. I wonder if you can put it into practice without too many problems. If you go back to old inject... nothing easier than that. No clue why anyone who was against autoinject wouldnt be againt that for the exact same reasons though. thing is it's not the same, you still have to perform the cycle and time it well. I think it would be a best of both worlds solution. You dont have to switch screens so it's supereasy to do with a queen controlgroup, the queen is still playing the game for you automatically by performing a targetsearch+walk+cast action. So regardless whether one hated it for the "difficulty reason" or the "automation is catagorically bad reason", both are in full effect here.i guess difficultywise its ever so slightly harder than fully automated. I fall into the category of guys that really disliked the full automation, because the player was literally not involved anymore. It's not the same here. Everyone keeps saying how easy it is to produce continuously as T even during huge battles, but we still see production gaps in the best players' tabs. I would at least like that solution to be tested.
You made the queen like one makes a hatch, gateway, barracks, reactor. That was your involvement.
But Im not a fan of altering inject mechanically while not following the reasoning why you target it to begin with. Though that solution is one of the closest to removing it without removing it.
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SoCal8910 Posts
i find it fascinating that DK removed the inject changes based on perception. curious.
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On September 20 2015 21:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 21:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:08 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 21:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:00 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 20:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 20:44 FLuE wrote:On September 20 2015 20:04 CptMarvel wrote:On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear I somewhat agree with you on elitism but : 1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2 2. You come off as a douchebag At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery. I kinda like this idea. I wonder if you can put it into practice without too many problems. If you go back to old inject... nothing easier than that. No clue why anyone who was against autoinject wouldnt be againt that for the exact same reasons though. thing is it's not the same, you still have to perform the cycle and time it well. I think it would be a best of both worlds solution. You dont have to switch screens so it's supereasy to do with a queen controlgroup, the queen is still playing the game for you automatically by performing a targetsearch+walk+cast action. So regardless whether one hated it for the "difficulty reason" or the "automation is catagorically bad reason", both are in full effect here.i guess difficultywise its ever so slightly harder than fully automated. I fall into the category of guys that really disliked the full automation, because the player was literally not involved anymore. It's not the same here. Everyone keeps saying how easy it is to produce continuously as T even during huge battles, but we still see production gaps in the best players' tabs. I would at least like that solution to be tested. You made the queen like one makes a hatch, gateway, barracks, reactor. That was your involvement. But Im not a fan of altering inject mechanically while not following the reasoning why you target it to begin with. Though that solution is one of the closest to removing it without removing it.
The point I think any why this isn't a bad solution is that you still have to remember to do it, and ultimately that is what macro is mostly about, remembering to do it. The actual clicking with mbs etc isn't that hard for any race really when you get down to it. I don't find a solution like this much different than say smartcast.
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Everyone keeps saying how easy it is to produce continuously as T even during huge battles, but we still see production gaps in the best players' tabs
Production gaps of a couple of seconds doesn't matter. Macro is not what differentiates pro players.
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France24237 Posts
On September 20 2015 21:57 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 21:25 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 21:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:08 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 21:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:00 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 20:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 20:44 FLuE wrote:On September 20 2015 20:04 CptMarvel wrote:On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear I somewhat agree with you on elitism but : 1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2 2. You come off as a douchebag At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery. I kinda like this idea. I wonder if you can put it into practice without too many problems. If you go back to old inject... nothing easier than that. No clue why anyone who was against autoinject wouldnt be againt that for the exact same reasons though. thing is it's not the same, you still have to perform the cycle and time it well. I think it would be a best of both worlds solution. You dont have to switch screens so it's supereasy to do with a queen controlgroup, the queen is still playing the game for you automatically by performing a targetsearch+walk+cast action. So regardless whether one hated it for the "difficulty reason" or the "automation is catagorically bad reason", both are in full effect here.i guess difficultywise its ever so slightly harder than fully automated. I fall into the category of guys that really disliked the full automation, because the player was literally not involved anymore. It's not the same here. Everyone keeps saying how easy it is to produce continuously as T even during huge battles, but we still see production gaps in the best players' tabs. I would at least like that solution to be tested. You made the queen like one makes a hatch, gateway, barracks, reactor. That was your involvement. But Im not a fan of altering inject mechanically while not following the reasoning why you target it to begin with. Though that solution is one of the closest to removing it without removing it. The point I think any why this isn't a bad solution is that you still have to remember to do it, and ultimately that is what macro is mostly about, remembering to do it. The actual clicking with mbs etc isn't that hard for any race really when you get down to it. I don't find a solution like this much different than say smartcast.
my opinion too. Actually hitting the buttons at the right time may not be very difficult, but you still have to remember it whereas the automated queen remembers it so you don't have to.
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On September 20 2015 22:06 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 21:57 FLuE wrote:On September 20 2015 21:25 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 21:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:08 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 21:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:00 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 20:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 20:44 FLuE wrote:On September 20 2015 20:04 CptMarvel wrote:
[quote]
I somewhat agree with you on elitism but :
1. LoL is arguably more successful than DotA2
2. You come off as a douchebag At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery. I kinda like this idea. I wonder if you can put it into practice without too many problems. If you go back to old inject... nothing easier than that. No clue why anyone who was against autoinject wouldnt be againt that for the exact same reasons though. thing is it's not the same, you still have to perform the cycle and time it well. I think it would be a best of both worlds solution. You dont have to switch screens so it's supereasy to do with a queen controlgroup, the queen is still playing the game for you automatically by performing a targetsearch+walk+cast action. So regardless whether one hated it for the "difficulty reason" or the "automation is catagorically bad reason", both are in full effect here.i guess difficultywise its ever so slightly harder than fully automated. I fall into the category of guys that really disliked the full automation, because the player was literally not involved anymore. It's not the same here. Everyone keeps saying how easy it is to produce continuously as T even during huge battles, but we still see production gaps in the best players' tabs. I would at least like that solution to be tested. You made the queen like one makes a hatch, gateway, barracks, reactor. That was your involvement. But Im not a fan of altering inject mechanically while not following the reasoning why you target it to begin with. Though that solution is one of the closest to removing it without removing it. The point I think any why this isn't a bad solution is that you still have to remember to do it, and ultimately that is what macro is mostly about, remembering to do it. The actual clicking with mbs etc isn't that hard for any race really when you get down to it. I don't find a solution like this much different than say smartcast. my opinion too. Actually hitting the buttons at the right time may not be very difficult, but you still have to remember it whereas the automated queen remembers it so you don't have to.
Isn't that exactly what macro cycles are for?
My personal one is
+ Show Spoiler +
[All Hatcheries] - how much larvae do I have?
[Queens 1-4] - >= 25 Energy? If yes, double tap and inject, go back to army
Look at resources -> spend resources depending on larvae and scouting information
(Back to army -> scout, attack if needed)
And my eyes are on the minimap whenever I don't consciously look at stuff (i.e. queen energy).
This is what I aim to do in every game in a practiced interval (around 5-10 seconds) and it keeps me injecting automatically.
Imho, if you have to consciously remember to inject, you're doing it wrong.
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On September 20 2015 18:09 K)Vincent wrote:
is just my opinion guys, I wany an hard game... I don't want an user-friendly game like Blizzard did with Heroes of the storm that is a fail game... look at mobas for example, the most successful one is Dota2, the hardest one... and I'm not talking about twitch viewers but about prize pools. Honestly a guy saying "I'm not low league, I stuck in mid master from 4 years and I complain cause I want auto-inject" is one of those players that Blizzard shouldn't hear
Most successful RTS is simply not enough at the moment. There is literally no competition in RTS scene. You are competing against other games like Counter Strike, MOBAs etc. and Starcraft is losing that competition HARD. If there is no entry level game to make people familiar with the gameplay, then the harder games can't flourish because the people who would eventually change from an easier game to the harder one are playing another genre.
Since Starcraft is pretty much the only competitive RTS it needs to be easily approachable. Maybe Warcraft 4 or some other company is able to create this entry level RTS so that the competitive scene can flourish in the future, but at the moment we need to ease the mechanics slightly or we are going to lose to the easier competition.
I personally understand the need for very hard game, but I don't see how it could work in the current situation.
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France24237 Posts
On September 20 2015 22:33 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 22:06 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:57 FLuE wrote:On September 20 2015 21:25 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 21:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:08 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 21:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 21:00 Big J wrote:On September 20 2015 20:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 20 2015 20:44 FLuE wrote:
[quote]
At the least make queen inject a one button mechanic where you hit inject and queen injects closest hatchery. I kinda like this idea. I wonder if you can put it into practice without too many problems. If you go back to old inject... nothing easier than that. No clue why anyone who was against autoinject wouldnt be againt that for the exact same reasons though. thing is it's not the same, you still have to perform the cycle and time it well. I think it would be a best of both worlds solution. You dont have to switch screens so it's supereasy to do with a queen controlgroup, the queen is still playing the game for you automatically by performing a targetsearch+walk+cast action. So regardless whether one hated it for the "difficulty reason" or the "automation is catagorically bad reason", both are in full effect here.i guess difficultywise its ever so slightly harder than fully automated. I fall into the category of guys that really disliked the full automation, because the player was literally not involved anymore. It's not the same here. Everyone keeps saying how easy it is to produce continuously as T even during huge battles, but we still see production gaps in the best players' tabs. I would at least like that solution to be tested. You made the queen like one makes a hatch, gateway, barracks, reactor. That was your involvement. But Im not a fan of altering inject mechanically while not following the reasoning why you target it to begin with. Though that solution is one of the closest to removing it without removing it. The point I think any why this isn't a bad solution is that you still have to remember to do it, and ultimately that is what macro is mostly about, remembering to do it. The actual clicking with mbs etc isn't that hard for any race really when you get down to it. I don't find a solution like this much different than say smartcast. my opinion too. Actually hitting the buttons at the right time may not be very difficult, but you still have to remember it whereas the automated queen remembers it so you don't have to. Isn't that exactly what macro cycles are for? My personal one is + Show Spoiler +
[All Hatcheries] - how much larvae do I have?
[Queens 1-4] - >= 25 Energy? If yes, double tap and inject, go back to army
Look at resources -> spend resources depending on larvae and scouting information
(Back to army -> scout, attack if needed)
And my eyes are on the minimap whenever I don't consciously look at stuff (i.e. queen energy).
This is what I aim to do in every game in a practiced interval (around 5-10 seconds) and it keeps me injecting automatically. Imho, if you have to consciously remember to inject, you're doing it wrong.
yeah but that routine is what makes you (I guess) a solid player and differentiates you from casuals. The routine wouldn't change much in fact.
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Was willing to give the game a shot (had they removed ALL the boosters) but, nope, they're just going to revert back to HotS and i'm just going to have to give up hope on StarCraft as a franchise :/
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EPT
