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Source
So despite Senior Game Designer David Kim being oceans away, he's still managed to produce the following thoughts about our most recent balance update.
Macro Mechanics
As you know, we've been focusing our discussions on trying to decide what the best move is for the macro mechanics. After many hours of playtesting and discussions, we decided to try out the changes mentioned last week.
First of all, we would like to point out that we saw the poll and posts relating to macro mechanics this week, and we'd like to thank you for the discussions. We don't agree with the idea that macro mechanics should be completely removed. When we tried this, and many of you pointed this out, each of the three races lost a bit of their identity and uniqueness.
Secondly, we'd like to also clear up a misconception in this area. The goal of testing these changes wasn’t necessarily about making StarCraft II easy to play or easy to master. The goal was to see if we can free up clicks on less interesting parts of the game so that we can see those clicks being utilized in more exciting to see parts of the game. We clearly believe StarCraft II is one of the most challenging games to master in the world and this pursuit of mastery is a critical component of the game. Instead, we're adding new modes such as Co-op Missions and Archon mode to make the game more approachable. Now let's talk more about the details of what we've found this week:
Terran
The Terran MULE isn't difficult to execute, even when we compare the automated one versus the Heart of the Swarm one side-by-side. Therefore, we believe this week’s balance update is the way to go for Terran.
Protoss
For Chrono Boost, we're realizing that the new version isn't always better than the old version. We are currently worried that this change is a bit of a side-grade than an upgrade overall due to it being better in some situations and worse in others. However, we would still like to pursue trying out this new version so that we can learn more about it. The main concern on this side is, yes it's true that the new one is cool and different, but is it actually what's best for the game? If it is, we will make the switch, and if not we can always revert it back to what we have in HotS.
Zerg
We're now leaning towards the fact that auto inject might not be the direction we want to go in the long-term. The primary reason is we've seen, and will continue to see, perception issues that diminish great Zerg players with arguments such as, "Zerg has no macro to do," or "every Zerg, no matter the skill level, can macro well because it's just all automatic." What it boils down to is we think the gain of having auto inject does not outweigh this negative perception that the change creates.
For example, offensive warp-ins was not something that was unbeatable, and it wasn’t a strategy that allows low skilled players to beat pro players on a consistent basis. In Protoss matchups, we saw better players winning games. However, it has been seen by players and our community as a strategy that just makes Protoss play gimmicky and less skillful. So, just like auto inject, this was something that we decided to change because the cool factor of having easy access to offensive warp-ins without having teched to something didn’t outweigh the negative perception that it was creating.
Therefore, we'll be trying out the queuing up version in the next balance update, so please focus on playtesting this change and let us know your thoughts and feedback.
Advanced Ping Options
With the addition of Archon mode and Co-op missions, we have been looking at ways to improve communication in team games. We heard from several people at the community summit that they would like to see something similar to the advanced ping options available in Heroes of the Storm. We liked this idea, and so we’ve been working on a version that makes sense for StarCraft II.
Right now what we’re thinking is when you hold down the ping command, you see a panel of options for more specific commands: Attack, Defend, On My Way and Retreat. This sends a message to all of your allies and creates a beacon in the world that they can see. Also, when issuing regular pings (not through this panel) on units, structures or resources, a specific message and beacon are created to help provide more context for your teammates as to what you’re calling out.
While playtesting an early version of this internally, we received feedback that the ping hotkey is cumbersome. We’re considering changing the Quick Ping hotkey to Alt+Left Mouse Button. To make room for this, we would move the default hotkey for Toggle Healthbars to the apostrophe key (‘). We’re looking at this because we feel that using pings is a more frequent action for the average user. Of course, these hotkeys can be customized for those who prefer different setups.
Balance in the Beta
This week, we also wanted to discuss the last phase of the beta. The decision on what to do with the macro mechanics will be one of the last design changes to the game, so we'll be focusing on balance tuning. One thing to remember though, is the highest level players are still playing HotS, and this level is where balance problems are the most apparent. We've seen this exact thing back in the HotS beta. Because the top-end players focus on current tournaments, it's difficult to gather data at that skill level, and even if they do play for a week or two, it's just not enough time for them to figure out what's optimal in the new game. For example, Hellbat drops, a simple and easy to execute strategy, wasn’t seen as being overpowered during the beta but we had to react with a patch after the game went live.
Therefore, while we will do our best to balance the game as best as we can before the launch, we expect there might be some issues that will need to be solved right after release, especially when tournaments begin next year. We will definitely be putting extra emphasis on the game balance right after the game launches in order to react quickly to any problems that arise.
The goal in the beta is to balance the game as best as we can for all skill levels right below the pro-level, and then focus on the pro-level balance heavily in the first weeks and months after the game releases. The timing of the game's release lines up well with this plan because there will be a few months break in WCS and other major tournaments out there right after the game releases.
As always, we look forward to seeing your feedback. Thank you!
- Dayvie
And that's it for this week. Please remember to keep your discussions civil and constructive.
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You beat me =/ great job though on posting it so fast for us teamliquid to see =)
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I'm glad that they mentioned Co-op and Archon for making the game more accessible, I'm sure this will be much more relevant to new/casual players than the state of macro mechanics because SC2 1v1 will be difficult either way.
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so blizzard lets the community bully them around once more.
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Economy, pace of the game...
Keep Dreaming Mr.Kim, your game is going to be so unstable and frustrating...Guess his platinum league mentality believes everything is roses in the valley...
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On September 19 2015 04:18 Big J wrote:
so blizzard lets the community bully them around once more.
With these kind of updates... They are literally asking for it.
"We saw the poll but screw it, we are keeping things what WE like"
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Are the ping changes a clone of LoL? Because that's what it seems like, and I really like that ping system
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Teamgames:
Just introduce push-to-talk like in CS:GO
Yes, that can be very annoying with random teammates just like in CS:GO. But with a easy "mute this guy"-option, this problem is mostly fixed. Pinging is just a gimmick, give us a easy to use option to talk with out teammates. Or the chaos in RTs continues.
I know there is Ptt in the game, but nobody every uses it: muting is complicated, it is hidden deep in the systems and I have never found one else using it. Now they make new ping systems instead of pushing the players for talking with each other.
And for F-Word-sake stop queeing random teams against premade teams. You did not due this in Warcraft III over 10 years ago, why do you do this in Starcraft II since 5 years. It is one of the greatest killing point for casual team games. And yes, 1v1 competitive is just not for everybody, 4v4 scene in Warcraft was gigantic, in SC II its much worse: RT vs premades, the stupid maps, zero communication...
David, do it!
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Zerg
We're now leaning towards the fact that auto inject might not be the direction we want to go in the long-term. The primary reason is we've seen, and will continue to see, perception issues that diminish great Zerg players with arguments such as, "Zerg has no macro to do," or "every Zerg, no matter the skill level, can macro well because it's just all automatic." What it boils down to is we think the gain of having auto inject does not outweigh this negative perception that the change creates.
Well, at least they are up front about their reasoning. I suppose I will just enjoy single player, just like I did with HOTS.
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Please remove mule and chrono.
I'm sure all protoss players and zerg players would be happy. (whether they realize it or not)
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Looks like I won't be purchasing LotV.
Sad, really. The macro boosters aren't fun unless perfectly automated.
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Well I guess there goes the era of no macro mechanics. I think that was the way to go but manual is better than auto. On the bright side, I'm glad I can practice now while knowing injects are here to stay I guess...
Still, I can't believe we didn't even end up with mules not having a limited range to reduce late game hammering. What the fuck m8. Might as well change chrono back too I'm guessing.
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On September 19 2015 04:24 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 04:18 Big J wrote:
so blizzard lets the community bully them around once more. With these kind of updates... They are literally asking for it. "We saw the poll but screw it, we are keeping things what WE like"
That's what every game designer should do, 99% of the community know NOTHING about game design.
They think without macro mechanics the game will be better because ... they think so.
So if blizzard actually listens to the community and removes mms and once the meta settles it becomes clear that it has made the game completely boring and stale ... guess who gets blamed for it? Surely not the community.
As a game designer you have to do what is best for the game. NOT what the community thinks is best for the game.
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On September 19 2015 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:That's what every game designer should do, 99% of the community know NOTHING about game design.
They think without macro mechanics the game will be better because ... they think so.
So if blizzard actually listens to the community and removes mms and once the meta settles it becomes clear that it has made the game completely boring and stale ... guess who gets blamed for it? Surely not the community.
As a game designer you have to do what is best for the game. NOT what the community thinks is best for the game. Nice appeal to authority, bro.
I cordially disagree. Removing the macro ( edit: ) BOOSTERS, not mechanics, outright is a far superior option to increase the fun for the vast majority than leaving them as they are. Now, if they were perfectly automated we could have the best of both worlds: the spectacle of race flavor and good design.
Edit: On September 19 2015 04:55 Ansibled wrote:How are automated macro mechanics 'good design'? It's not so much that automated macro boosters are good design as it is that the current incarnation of macro boosters are inferior design.
The objections go thusly.
#1: A 'good macro', used here to mean the optimization of income and spending, is more powerful, thus more important, than any other skill, strategy and micro being the next two in line, at most levels of play.
So, #2: a player who specializes in macro will likely beat players who have comparable levels of all other skills yet inferior macro.
#3: the macro boosters do exactly as the name implies, thus are directly responsible for this imbalance.
#4: the macro boosters eat up the precious commodity of actions (such as in APM), therefore anyone who wishes to have good macro must sacrifice their micro and (to a lesser extent, for when using macro skill is sufficiently high the use of boosters becomes optimally rote and costs less thought,) strategy.
#5: optimizing the use of boosters is tough because it is a non-intuitive rote that must be ceaselessly hammered to properly learn when to devote thought / actions to the use of boosters and when to devote it to other things.
Therefore, macro boosters are directly responsible for the diminishing of micro and strategy.
Automated macro boosters addresses #4 and #5 primarily, thus is superior.
However, the removal of the macro boosters would address problems #1-3 as well.
But, automated macro boosters provides spectacle and flavor. I believe that problems #1-3 far outweigh the gain from spectacle and flavor.
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First of all, we would like to point out that we saw the poll and posts relating to macro mechanics this week, and we'd like to thank you for the discussions.
I am at least very happy to know that they actually saw and paid attention to the poll, they don't agree with it, but at least it got on their radar.
A more robust ping system would be a really great addition, glad to hear they are working on that.
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On September 19 2015 04:54 Jaedrik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:That's what every game designer should do, 99% of the community know NOTHING about game design.
They think without macro mechanics the game will be better because ... they think so.
So if blizzard actually listens to the community and removes mms and once the meta settles it becomes clear that it has made the game completely boring and stale ... guess who gets blamed for it? Surely not the community.
As a game designer you have to do what is best for the game. NOT what the community thinks is best for the game. Nice appeal to authority, bro. I cordially disagree. Removing the macro mechanics outright is a far superior option to increase the fun for the vast majority than leaving them as they are. Now, if they were perfectly automated we could have the best of both worlds: the spectacle of race flavor and good design.
How are automated macro mechanics 'good design'?
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Release date is too soon =\
LotV is your last chance.
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On September 19 2015 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 04:24 WrathSCII wrote:On September 19 2015 04:18 Big J wrote:
so blizzard lets the community bully them around once more. With these kind of updates... They are literally asking for it. "We saw the poll but screw it, we are keeping things what WE like" That's what every game designer should do, 99% of the community know NOTHING about game design. They think without macro mechanics the game will be better because ... they think so. So if blizzard actually listens to the community and removes mms and once the meta settles it becomes clear that it has made the game completely boring and stale ... guess who gets blamed for it? Surely not the community. As a game designer you have to do what is best for the game. NOT what the community thinks is best for the game.
Or maybe it's because it was tested and the majority of people (not whiney terrans) enjoyed it much better.
I haven't been able to get back into the game since they put them back in. ( compared to playing 25 games ish a week during th beta otherwise)
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On September 19 2015 04:58 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:On September 19 2015 04:24 WrathSCII wrote:On September 19 2015 04:18 Big J wrote:
so blizzard lets the community bully them around once more. With these kind of updates... They are literally asking for it. "We saw the poll but screw it, we are keeping things what WE like" That's what every game designer should do, 99% of the community know NOTHING about game design. They think without macro mechanics the game will be better because ... they think so. So if blizzard actually listens to the community and removes mms and once the meta settles it becomes clear that it has made the game completely boring and stale ... guess who gets blamed for it? Surely not the community. As a game designer you have to do what is best for the game. NOT what the community thinks is best for the game. Or maybe it's because it was tested and the majority of people (not whiney terrans) enjoyed it much better. I haven't been able to get back into the game since they put them back in. ( compared to playing 25 games ish a week during th beta otherwise)
Same here.
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So, just like auto inject, this was something that we decided to change because the cool factor of having easy access to offensive warp-ins without having teched to something didn’t outweigh the negative perception that it was creating.
This is probably one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Worst fucking comparison. How on earth can someone be as stupid and incompetent.
Guess I shouldn't expect better from the guy who thought nerfing mines and buffing tanks would add more diversity and maintain balance even though basic logic would tell us otherwise.
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EPT
