|
Currently in the Beta, Adepts have almost made all other gateway units non-existent. Whether this is due to overlap between roles or just the fact that the unit is new cannot be determined.
To solve this issue, as well as to make Protoss macro more interesting, I propose that some units only be gateway-accessible, while others are strictly warp gate accessible. This not only makes the Protoss macro much more interesting, but will allow for all units to be seen. Blizzard has commented on how the zealot and Adept slightly overlap. If one is exclusive to gateway and the other exclusive to warpgate this could solve that issue.
Example: Gateway Accessible units: Adept, (Dragoon-or a unit that is somewhat similar to stalker, but more beefy and better in straight up combat situations), HTs, Sentry,
Warpgate Accessible Units: DT, stalker, zealot. sentry (again).
I feel like this would remove the over prevalence of the Adept in games, and could also weaken some of the Adept all-ins.
It would also serve as a skill determining factor for toss macro: who can keep changing their gates/warpgates to build the right unit. Scouting would also be more powerful against protoss because the enemy could better determine what units the toss player is making by looking at the state of his Gateways.
An upgrade at the twilight or something could decrease the time in it takes to switch between gateway-warpgate.
The only overt negative I see to trying this is that the zealot would not be available early on which may be needed for ling/rine rushes.
Any thoughts on this idea?
|
Currently in the Beta, Adepts have almost made all other gateway units non-existent. Whether this is due to overlap between roles or just the fact that the unit is new cannot be determined.
I voice the opinion, the main reason why Adepts have almost made all other gateway units non-existent is for the obvious reason, the Adept is simply better than the Zealot & Stalker in the early phase of the game, especially before the Twilight research are done. Early light units (zealot, zergling, marine) are destoryed by Adepts and armored units (stalker, maraduar, roach) no not deal enough damage to actually kill Adepts at a fast enough pace before teh Adepts can escape with their innate ability. For cost, stats, and utility from their range and transfer ability, they are the best overall chocie in almost every early game stragtey. To me, it feels like Blizzard just gave them so much stats to be Protoss answers to all of early game issues, and the only thing keeping them from being completely overpowered is their highly specialized damge.
Overlap, especially between the Adept and the Zealot, is really not a hard issue to fix with a few number tweaking. Zealots has a lot of actual good & potential strenghts that the Adept does not fill. In battle, Zealots can actually deal with every Armored unit that doesn't deal splash damage (Maraduar, Siege Tank, Stalkers, Immortal, Roach, Ravager) very cost efficently, but the only issue is, they're slow. For example, if Zealots could get Charge at Cybernetic Core, they could easily find their way into early army compositions because until the big hitters comes out, Zealots are actually powerful for their cost.
To solve this issue, as well as to make Protoss macro more interesting, I propose that some units only be gateway-accessible, while others are strictly warp gate accessible. This not only makes the Protoss macro much more interesting, but will allow for all units to be seen. Blizzard has commented on how the zealot and Adept slightly overlap. If one is exclusive to gateway and the other exclusive to warpgate this could solve that issue.
For your solution (which isn't new), I'm personally find the entire notion of spliting up what units can be made from which building really stupid. First, Robo Bay & Stargate are essientally this to Warpgate/Gateway. Secondly, Warpgate is hands down the better of the two building in giving the player more stragatic & mechanically options. Its funner and allows different tactics to employ that a regular Gateway can never allow. Saying that, Warpgate is extremely powerful and it does need to get tone down in its strenght.
I know the common reasons to want to divide the units from which building: wanting to buff Gateway units, wanting to have a reason to use Gateway since that building exist, thinking warpgate is unbalanceable, we should be given an option, defenders advantage, or in your case, to make different units more viable (even though the zealot was already overshadowed by the Stalker before the Adept). And all I can say to them is, Blizzard can design the game in where the Protoss is fun to play, balanced in comparative to the other races with resorting to all-in or cheese tactics, and still have a good Core gateway army.
The only thing that really matters is, how willing is Blizzard in make changes to the Protoss race. With the upcoming warp-gate nerf (that I'm happy to see finally happen), there is a small hope, but there is so much more room that they improve on.
I for one would love to see the Adept usage to fall down and it's not because I think Adept are stupid or OP (though, they sort of are). I just want to see Adept usage to fall down because I want variety in Protoss army compositions, but trying to force different army compositions through limations while just leaving 1 unit head & shoulders the better unit in most situations in regardless of the enemy is the stupid & less fun design route to force compositions.
As for just something else, what if Blizzard was to tie the ability to "change a Gateway to a Wargate" to the Nexus, making it cost like 50-75 energy (and remove the Warpgate reserach). This would easily slow down the all-in rushes since you would be giving up a lot of chrono boosts (assuming it doesn't get removed) and would act in somewhat in a similar manner to indiviual transporting Overlords. Giving players the option to get wargate early on without the huge fear of Protoss placing 8 gateways and transforming all of them at once. Let alone, this would give Gateway a more pratical use since they will stay longer in the field before getting swapped to Warpgate.
|
Mass adept rush is incredibly hard to deal with, as Terran.
I like some of the elements of the adept, but ... they are basically an early-game super-fast Blink Zealot that throws his blades. Seriously, how can a unit have high HP, high damage output, temporary invulnerable teleporting, fast ground speed, have a ranged attack, and require zero upgrades or support to be fully operational? Really, guys?
Maybe make it a ranged attack, or a super short range? Terrible?
|
On August 13 2015 09:03 TimeSpiral wrote:
...and require zero upgrades or support to be fully operational?
You do know Blizzard Entertainment is designing LOTV right? David Kim leading?
As bad as the Adept is, and it's terrible, the Warhound was worse. As the Warhound was the answer to Mech units being bad, the Adept is the answer to Gateway units being bad.
Hopefully Blizzard will see the light again.
I also think that the idea of swapping back and forth between Gateway and Warpgate would be boring. Like doing an Inject every X amount of seconds.
|
Better solution would be
1. For balance...Balance the stats of adepts (and zealots, stalkers, etc.) properly so that all are worth building in certain cases
2. For lore/flavor/assymetric balance: revise the protoss production method for gateway and stargate units
Gateways...warp in a unit instantly to the same location as the Gateway on the map, and then cooldown
Warpgates...warp in a unit to any pylon power location on the map, and then cooldown (units summoning in fast or slow depending on presence of Warpgate/Warp Prism is a good idea)
Stargates...warp in a unit instantly to the same location as the Stargate on the map, and then cooldown
OR
warp in a unit to the Mothership (slow speed), and then cooldown
rebalance by increasing buildtimes and/or costs of Gateways/Stargates, have Carriers start with 0 Interceptors...similar to High Templars with only 50 energy.
|
Why do people keep insisting that Gateway Macro would be more "interesting" if you had to constantly cycle back and forth between the 2 structures? Am I the only one who finds that kind of gameplay jarring and annoying? The last thing I want to be doing is wait for my Warpgates to shift back to Gateways because I want a different comp of units. Nevermind the fact that if I'm trying to remax after a fight this is an even bigger issue.
It's not Gateways that needs a change, its warp-ins.
|
On August 13 2015 09:27 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 09:03 TimeSpiral wrote:
...and require zero upgrades or support to be fully operational?
You do know Blizzard Entertainment is designing LOTV right? David Kim leading? *snip*
I do, of course. Blizzard is a mega-company of near infinite awesomeness, responsible for bringing great games, events, and communities to life since the early days of the great Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. And David Kim is a high-level designer at said company, near the top of the game design industry, and way more awesome, and high-profile than you or I. I think he's doing an awesome job.
|
Adepts are far too good early game, very solid and interesting mid game, and close to useless lategame.
The unit has potential but it needs work.
Best solution for WG : split energy and warp-in power.
|
Shouldn't transfer be a research at the twilight council, like the other gateway unit abilities? Oh yea, instead they made it a beef upgrade. Maybe it should be both?
|
On August 13 2015 09:03 TimeSpiral wrote:
Seriously, how can a unit have high HP, high damage output, temporary invulnerable teleporting, fast ground speed, have a ranged attack, and require zero upgrades or support to be fully operational? Really, guys?
On August 13 2015 10:09 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 09:27 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 13 2015 09:03 TimeSpiral wrote:
...and require zero upgrades or support to be fully operational?
You do know Blizzard Entertainment is designing LOTV right? David Kim leading? *snip* I do, of course. Blizzard is a mega-company of near infinite awesomeness, responsible for bringing great games, events, and communities to life since the early days of the great Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. And David Kim is a high-level designer at said company, near the top of the game design industry, and way more awesome, and high-profile than you or I. I think he's doing an awesome job.
I'm glad you decided to fall back in line and offer your unconditional and unwavering support to Kim Jong... I mean David Kim, after initially questioning him.
You will like what he does to Starcraft. Just like we loved what Blizzard did with Diablo III.
|
On August 13 2015 15:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 09:03 TimeSpiral wrote:
Seriously, how can a unit have high HP, high damage output, temporary invulnerable teleporting, fast ground speed, have a ranged attack, and require zero upgrades or support to be fully operational? Really, guys?
Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 10:09 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 13 2015 09:27 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 13 2015 09:03 TimeSpiral wrote:
...and require zero upgrades or support to be fully operational?
You do know Blizzard Entertainment is designing LOTV right? David Kim leading? *snip* I do, of course. Blizzard is a mega-company of near infinite awesomeness, responsible for bringing great games, events, and communities to life since the early days of the great Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. And David Kim is a high-level designer at said company, near the top of the game design industry, and way more awesome, and high-profile than you or I. I think he's doing an awesome job. I'm glad you decided to fall back in line and offer your unconditional and unwavering support to Kim Jong... I mean David Kim, after initially questioning him. You will like what he does to Starcraft. Just like we loved what Blizzard did with Diablo III.
You got me! I'm an intolerable hypocrite.
In all seriousness. I'm in the beta, and giving my feedback, like they asked. And I can simultaneously believe they're doing a great job, while also dropping the "really, guys?!" line when they test--imho--bad choices, like the Invulnerable Death Bomb and the Ranged Blink Zealot.
And if I would have known that Diablo III was essentially 1942 (Capcom, 1984), but themed medieval horror, I probably would have liked it.
|
Seriously, how can a unit have high HP, high damage output, temporary invulnerable teleporting, fast ground speed, have a ranged attack, and require zero upgrades or support to be fully operational? Really, guys?
Well when you put it like that, it does seem that Blizz are quite clueless at times. Seriously, they need to ask themselves when they make a unit or adjust its stats (especially for Protoss) - what happens when some cheeser just makes lots of these early game??
and close to useless lategame
Why should every unit be useable late game? Look at the reaper for instance. I quite like having units that have a certain window of opportunity to use them as it gives a feeling of progression in your play as your composition changes with time. It might be nice if reapers were a little more useful than just being the first, or second army unit that you make.
|
On August 13 2015 23:30 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 15:22 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 13 2015 09:03 TimeSpiral wrote:
Seriously, how can a unit have high HP, high damage output, temporary invulnerable teleporting, fast ground speed, have a ranged attack, and require zero upgrades or support to be fully operational? Really, guys?
On August 13 2015 10:09 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 13 2015 09:27 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 13 2015 09:03 TimeSpiral wrote:
...and require zero upgrades or support to be fully operational?
You do know Blizzard Entertainment is designing LOTV right? David Kim leading? *snip* I do, of course. Blizzard is a mega-company of near infinite awesomeness, responsible for bringing great games, events, and communities to life since the early days of the great Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. And David Kim is a high-level designer at said company, near the top of the game design industry, and way more awesome, and high-profile than you or I. I think he's doing an awesome job. I'm glad you decided to fall back in line and offer your unconditional and unwavering support to Kim Jong... I mean David Kim, after initially questioning him. You will like what he does to Starcraft. Just like we loved what Blizzard did with Diablo III. You got me! I'm an intolerable hypocrite. In all seriousness. I'm in the beta, and giving my feedback, like they asked. And I can simultaneously believe they're doing a great job, while also dropping the "really, guys?!" line when they test--imho--bad choices, like the Invulnerable Death Bomb and the Ranged Blink Zealot. And if I would have known that Diablo III was essentially 1942 (Capcom, 1984), but themed medieval horror, I probably would have liked it.
And if I would have known that the Adept was essentially the Warhound, but Protoss themed, I probably would like it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
