TvP - how to deal with carriers? - Page 3

JackONeill

861 Posts

July 30 2015 02:03 GMT

#41

On July 30 2015 10:39 i)awn wrote:
Carriers have been cost unefficient

Cost inefficient. HAHAHAHA.
Oh wait you're serious. That's even funnier HAHAHAHA XDDDD

Carriers aren't used in TvP in WOL and HOTS because it's nearly impossible to transition into air against terran (you lack the AoE to deal with marines). Against zerg, the ability from zerg to pop 20 corruptors rapidly makes the transition quite impossible too.

However, carriers are the most cost efficient unit in the game if you have 8+ carriers. It just DESTROYS anything. Now with the interceptor ability of LOTV, you can pay to obliterate a zone without risking the carriers. That and the fact they are produced much faster.
So yeah if they wanna make carrier viable as a unit, they have to make it so that only massing carrier, just like massing only battlecruisers, is easy to counter. Because right now, watching a few LOTV streams, I haven't seen any way to deal with carriers except killing the protoss while he's transitionning.

Aquila-

516 Posts

July 30 2015 17:34 GMT

#42

So here are 2 replays of me vs carriers, I try to play mech or skyterran in TvP lotv and I knew both games from the start that they are going carrier. They are already going into them when I am getting my production up, there is no way to punish them with a timing before they can get them out.

Both these games my opponents played pretty terribly and should be much lower ranked than me in hots.

First game I try mass widow mine and later liberators. There are cannons everywhere and the archons/colos on the ground deal with the mines, the archons also splash the liberators.
http://www.file-upload.net/download-10806947/TvP-mass-mine-vs-carrier.SC2Replay.html

Second game I planned to go skyterran from the start so I went straight into liberator and starports and spent all my gas in my air army with upgrades, minerals on hellbats. My army can somewhat deal with the carriers but he just warps in stalkers and I cant deal with both air and ground units at the same time and had no gas to build anything good on the ground.
http://www.file-upload.net/download-10806944/TvP-carrier-vs-liberator-viking.SC2Replay.html

SkaPunk

United States471 Posts

July 30 2015 19:18 GMT

#43

Carriers are super good in lotv, I think the mind set that most of the people here have is what is wrong. Instead of trying to fight the carriers one on one, I think its important to try to flank them after they drop the interceptors, counter attack, and bait. Maybe marines cant win one on one, but they certainly can beat anything when the carriers arent around. Sprinkle some ghosts to emp the MSC or HTs and take the whole map.

SkaPunk

United States471 Posts

July 30 2015 19:52 GMT

#44

On July 31 2015 02:34 Aquila- wrote:
So here are 2 replays of me vs carriers, I try to play mech or skyterran in TvP lotv and I knew both games from the start that they are going carrier. They are already going into them when I am getting my production up, there is no way to punish them with a timing before they can get them out.

Both these games my opponents played pretty terribly and should be much lower ranked than me in hots.

First game I try mass widow mine and later liberators. There are cannons everywhere and the archons/colos on the ground deal with the mines, the archons also splash the liberators.
http://www.file-upload.net/download-10806947/TvP-mass-mine-vs-carrier.SC2Replay.html

Second game I planned to go skyterran from the start so I went straight into liberator and starports and spent all my gas in my air army with upgrades, minerals on hellbats. My army can somewhat deal with the carriers but he just warps in stalkers and I cant deal with both air and ground units at the same time and had no gas to build anything good on the ground.
http://www.file-upload.net/download-10806944/TvP-carrier-vs-liberator-viking.SC2Replay.html

Hey man, I watched your games and thought you did a good job. You're probably much better than me, but I thought for the sake of discussion that I would throw my two cents in.

In the first game, with the widow mines, I thought you did a really good job pushing him back. Although I'm not really a fan of pushing straight into such a good defensive unit like the carrier, it did seem to be effective. I even thought that you were going to pull ahead and roll over him at points. I think the biggest issue was that you didnt expand fast enough to take your 4th and 5th. It looked like you were taking the more efficient fights, and right when it seemed like the tied had turned your income sort of went to shit. I just dont think that a protoss going carriers should expand for the terran does. I also think that maybe you could have burrowed a mine at likely expansions, which with his 1 obs, would have been a gigantic pain in the ass. Also it seemed like the mines were doing a lot of dmg to the vikings, maybe keep them in a flanking position? or in the back but ready to chase? Maybe that would leave them vulnerable to the stalkers.

In game two, HOLY SHIT ADEPTS ARE GOOD AGAINST HELLBATS. Did not realize. Im not really sure what the solution was in this game. Quite clearly, the liberators were super effective against the carriers, but with 4 starports, im not sure how to deal with those stalkers and adepts. The liberators definitely werent enough to do anything except slow them down. Maybe when you see a big ground army get 1 more factory and get some tanks and hellbats to just be the core of your army?

Anyway, thoughts?

EleanorRIgby

Canada3923 Posts

July 30 2015 20:04 GMT

#45

i think the biggest thing about dealing with carriers is scouting the switch as early as possible and keeping their economy as low as possible. turrets, vikings with a few liberators + bio/ghosts can deal with it well.

if you dont scout them before they have like 6 carriers its really hard to take them down and you have to keep them in their base as long as possible while you build counter units

weikor

Austria580 Posts

July 30 2015 20:24 GMT

#46

This is game 1.

at 7 minutes you see a fleet beacon, 2 stargates with a WM drop - you lose 700 recources to 0
at 8 minutes he attacks with Adept voidray - your defense is out of position and recourses lost is now 1800 to 750. He also manages to kill your third orbital, while his nexus is already mining.
at 9, you go for a counter push that deals decent damage, trading even recources and stopping his mining at his third. Your third isnt mining either, so its even economy. Recourses lost is now 8300 - 7300.

// during this time you often float over 400 minerals, taking a 4th or even 5th would have been completely uncontested winning you the game. You opt to stay on even bases - note how he could never kill a new base at any point during this time.
You also have a planetary at your third vs air ... the use can be debated.

at 12 he takes his 4th before you do.

at 14 you push, he manages to clean up all your widow mines (barely), and some hellbats join the fight, which seem pointless. Recourses lost is now favoring him by 800 more than before. While he also has a 4th, and you dont.

small pokes favor him constantly, and youre falling more and more behind due to being behind in economy

at 16, recourses lost is now over 4000 difference

it does stay fairly even and balances out well, your widow mines take some good trades, then some bad ones. But hes always a base ahead. Harrasing those outlying bases would have been very easy with hellion runbys.

at 21 point you YOLO and just send all your widow mines into his third into cannons and lose them all.
what the hell?, and youre asking why you lost?
You never harrass outlying bases and in the last engage there are 30 hellions and 20 liberators that get smashed by superior numbers of archon carrier colossus.

That last fight was SUPER awful. You clumped up all your liberators and they all got splashed by all 3 archons. Additionally hellbats were sold out at that time.

then you bad manner him ~~ cant really say you did a great job at executing the build

Game 2 lets sum it up.

Being behind in economy and sacrificing units is not the way to win vs carriers. Protipp : Skyterran also includes some units that can shoot ground if his composition is 50% blink stalkers.

Aquila-

516 Posts

July 30 2015 21:29 GMT

#47

On July 31 2015 05:24 weikor wrote:

Show nested quote +

So you basically watched the replay and wrote down what you saw, good job making a protocol of the games. But you never suggested anything that I can do except harassing with hellions, and I tried. There are multiple cannons at every base so widow mines or hellions dont do anything. He also has warpgate btw.

Game 2 I spent all gas on making units so I survive vs his carriers. "Some units that can shoot ground". Like what? Pulling gas from nowhere to add factories, having less air units and then I make what units that are good vs stalkers and carriers?

SkaPunk

United States471 Posts

July 30 2015 22:28 GMT

#48

+ Show Spoiler +

On July 31 2015 05:24 weikor wrote:

Show nested quote +