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darthcaesar
United States475 Posts
The fact that carriers can now run away combined with the removal of the thor's single target AA ability makes carriers extremely difficult to deal with right now. I've tried thors, cyclones, mass bio/drops, mass viking/liberator/BC, mass widow mine, etc. Please don't reply with "don't let protoss get carriers." Assume we're there already and protoss has carriers. Has anyone been successful with dealing with carriers cost efficiently? | ||
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SkaPunk
United States471 Posts
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
To me, it seems a macro issue, unless we are talking about 35+ min games (in HotS time). In order to make Mass Carriers really worth it, Storm has to be out, which means LATE game. In that case, army control is also heavily important, as you mandatorily need Ghosts and EMP in a lategame situation, which is the only terran unit you did not name here. 2 good EMPs would easily take 40% of the Protoss HP out in a second, which is a very big deal. Specially with Adepts now in the Toss arsenal. Transitioning to Carriers is extremely expensive, time-consuming, quite exploiteable early-midgame, and relatively easy to contest (not just straight counter) with good anticipation with Bio+Viking, also WM heavy. You should be able to contain severly and pressure Protoss, build some Orbitals and turrets, and expand while he is contained. Macrowise, Marines and Mines should be very cost efficient vs interceptors, and economic midgame should favor Terran heavily (comparing it to a passive Protoss). But if you arrive to that point in the game that wars are long, economic, and with bank and Lategame units come in decent numbers, try to outmacro Protoss, remove SCVs for Mules, and go full Maru (Bio+Mine+Viking+Ghost heavy + Nukes). Cyclones are also a good addition, but you need armor. Statwise, Cyclones should destroy Carriers.Also look for WoL Mass VikingBCGhost if it gets to Skytoss. Today's game in Proleague (Classic vs Maru) was a priceless lesson of late game TvP. IMAO Thors are a waste since the AoE is very small and interceptors spread, and the other AA mode is garbage (less impactful than a viking). Cyclones are good, but as vikings, you need numbers. And having the right numbers of everything in a BioMech strat is hard. Provide the replay so we can analyze! | ||
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
When you have a mass of carriers, what have you lost them to? | ||
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crown77
United States157 Posts
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19365 Posts
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On July 29 2015 08:55 crown77 wrote: god willing with the next patch they're going to let the cyclone shoot up w/ no upgrade and that means u can start accumulating cyclones earlier and when toss goes for air transition u can punish just like in BW.... late game u can use mobility to shut down new/ninja expansions down and use mines and cyclones slowly widdle down the fleet... u can unburrow mines if he doesn't commit all interceptors and burrow them again when they all launch he wont have money to remake First we have to nerf its ground damage to oblivion before we can do that, but I really would like to see the cyclone become an anti-air staple and replace the thor entirely in all compositions where ppl are getting them in order to help with anti-air. The moving shot is just dumb against ground units, but against more mobile air units that can use terrain to escape, it could prove to be very interesting. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10740 Posts
On July 29 2015 09:39 BisuDagger wrote: Carriers can't dodge seeker missiles. Get the damage upgrade and fire away! Recall can dodge seeker missiles, and also HT's can feedback ravens. | ||
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
On July 29 2015 09:41 GGzerG wrote: Recall can dodge seeker missiles, and also HT's can feedback ravens. Ravens are also useless against the interceptors when "launched" away from the carrier. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 29 2015 09:39 BisuDagger wrote: Carriers can't dodge seeker missiles. Get the damage upgrade and fire away! Carriers can easily dodge them. | ||
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darthcaesar
United States475 Posts
I think that the main issue that I'm having is that I've been playing mech vs Protoss for quite a bit now, so my usual TvP strategy revolves around being defensive in the midgame, which lets Protoss get carriers. I feel like I'm forced into going bio TvP in order to punish carriers, but I hate going bio, especially now that ghosts can't snipe HTs. I've been trying to do some kind of bio mech liberator hybrid, but that too has a relatively weak midgame. So if I do my mech stuff, Protoss scouts it and goes Carriers, and I don't have much of a way to punish it. If I do bio, then I usually end up playing a more "regular" (HTs, archons, etc) TvP, which I'm not the biggest fan of doing, but I might have to return to doing that. I'm going to try to figure out a way to punish Protoss that tries to go carrier with some kind of midgame push. The problem is that I have to attack basically the second they start carrier production or I'll get overwhelmed. On July 29 2015 08:49 CannonsNCarriers wrote: How about another way to frame the question: When you have a mass of carriers, what have you lost them to? In LotV, I've never lost in this situation (;^>) | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
I would think their AoE would just annihilate the interceptors once you have 'enough' liberators on the field... | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
With that said, the only current "counter," if you can call it that, to the carrier from Terran are widow mines getting lucky shots on masses of interceptors. If you play mech, try to go avilo lategame cyclone+mine™ and use mines to take out the interceptors and lock onto the carriers. If you play bio...mass marines should work...but for some reason actually doesn't in practice. You need mass mines with marines as well. Otherwise, at the current moment carriers beat everything and anything cost for cost in LOTV. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On July 29 2015 11:55 ffadicted wrote: Liberators are mch better at the mass AOE murder of interceptors than widow mines imo Has anyone run this through the unit tester? | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1547 Posts
On July 29 2015 16:37 Big J wrote: BCs do technically counter them. Even without using Yamato they should win due to their 3armor rendering the interceptors harmless. Problem is that carriers built much faster and BCS need yamato upgrade and is very vulnerable to feedback. Cyclone mine generally does better as liberators are squishy and succumb to carrier dps fast before they can start working on interceptor counts BC on equal count will kill carriers with focus fire but carrier not only builds faster, but can release interceptors and run away. | ||
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1613 Posts
It always was countered by Vikings. What's the problem with this in LotV? | ||
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doihy
668 Posts
On July 29 2015 17:46 Jenia6109 wrote: How a LotV Carrier became much better that HotS Carrier? It always was countered by Vikings. What's the problem with this in LotV? Less resources + carrier ability. Carrier ability allows carrier inteceptor to attack when the carriers aren't there. There for the carriers arent in danger of being sniped and can do continuous damage. The protoss player trades minerals (interceptors) and keeps hit and running. On top of that they can build some tempests as well. | ||
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BiiG-Fr
Canada109 Posts
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Carrier's ability is irrelevant. How is it a problem if the protoss player throws interceptors at you? Carriers alone can't beat a bio army. You need splash damage as well. You should be able to destroy all his interceptors immediately which is extremely expensive for your opponent. I seem to lose against carriers no matter how far ahead I am in a game. I'll have 3/3 ups on bio, +3 attack on vehicles, and still lose against ~ 0/1 carriers with marines, thors, widow mines, and vikings (obviously target firing carriers). If the situation you are describing is accurate and not exaggerated due to rage, the only answer is that you were waaay behind in army supply, or you forgot very basic micro like activating simpack / burrowing your mines. How a LotV Carrier became much better that HotS Carrier? It always was countered by Vikings. What's the problem with this in LotV? Vikings aren't good against carriers, especially if combined with storms. It can only work as a timing if you surprise your opponent when he still has a small amount of carriers (which is much harder in lotv because carriers build faster). Thors are better but they aren't great either. The only other counter to carriers are BCs (spam yamato and win), but they are pretty hard to get and you need to commit to mech upgrades. So definitely the best answer is to go marine/medivac/widow mines and attack. Source: played carriers a lot vs terran both in hots and lotv. Quit playing it after the widow mine buff which allowed them to oneshot interceptors with splash damage made carriers become a joke (I tried again in lotv hoping the new buffs changed something but nope, mines still turn interceptors into a firework). | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
1 shot off a WM is very likely to kill 3-5 interceptors, which is quite equal cost-wise. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On July 30 2015 01:31 JCoto wrote: From what I've seen, it's all about MassWM, with either Bio, Viking or Cyclone support. But MASS WM, with up to 30 mines at least. 1 shot off a WM is very likely to kill 3-5 interceptors, which is quite equal cost-wise. 30 widow mines is a waste. 10 widow mines shooting already kills 80%+ of the interceptors. It doesn't even depend on the carrier count because of how splash damage works. | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
widow mine is ok, but has the same problem vs storm. Widow mines really dont kill interceptors that reliably. Its supposed to be an incredibly strong lategame composition, and the mistake is 100% before the opponent has mass carrier. You need to be active, and if you see low base carrier (iE. 3 base carrier) then you can take 5 bases relatively easily, and just flood WM - liberator - vikings - bcs later. If its super endgame, and youre both on unlimited amounts or recources (more or less), im sure liberators massed will do better than anything. | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
interceptors are fairly expensive (more so since you will likely run out of minerals quicker in Lotv) For endgame compositions, 12 carriers will cost 2500 minerals and 6 will cost 1250 each time they fully have to replenish interceptors. Release interceptors practically destroys them all after 43 seconds of timed life. | ||
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owlman
France58 Posts
carrier cost 350/250 6 pop (+100 mineral to get full interceptors) and take 90 seconds to build --- vs --- liberator cost 150/150 3 pop take 60 sec to build and can be reactored. WM rape interceptors aswell, 10-15 is a good number. Honnestly you shouldn't die to carrier as a terran | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
21 x 3-3-3 Carrier 1 Mothership , Army value 12500, 6800 vs 3-3 28x liberator 22 x vikings. Army value 8000 6000 terran won with 5000 4000 left. Within the first volley of shots, the interceptor count went from 170 to 40 | ||
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Sogetsu
514 Posts
On July 30 2015 03:37 weikor wrote: after doing some testing, i can guarantee you that mass liberator is the answer to carrier. The interceptors die within a matter of seconds, the DPS drops quickly and you easily win 21 x 3-3-3 Carrier 1 Mothership , Army value 12500, 6800 vs 3-3 28x liberator 22 x vikings. Army value 8000 6000 terran won with 5000 4000 left. Within the first volley of shots, the interceptor count went from 170 to 40 Wow nice! And Libs can then go on AG Mode, as well Vikings down to ground if needed, interesting | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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owlman
France58 Posts
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TT1
Canada10045 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On July 30 2015 05:53 Aquila- wrote: So I correct myself, mass widow mine doesnt work either. There are cannons and you cant actually kill the carriers themselves. Tried liberators but he had archons on the ground that splashed the liberators. All the theory crafters here should try to play a higher level game, imo carriers are way too strong and too easy to get. What do you mean for higher level game? You don't care about killing the carriers when the protoss player is starved out and can't build anything because all his minerals are being thrown into interceptors. And again mass widow mine is stupid. Bio+ mines is the way to go, much cheaper than anything else, once your opponent is out of interceptors you can kill the carriers very easily with stimpacked marines. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On July 30 2015 03:37 weikor wrote: after doing some testing, i can guarantee you that mass liberator is the answer to carrier. The interceptors die within a matter of seconds, the DPS drops quickly and you easily win 21 x 3-3-3 Carrier 1 Mothership , Army value 12500, 6800 vs 3-3 28x liberator 22 x vikings. Army value 8000 6000 terran won with 5000 4000 left. Within the first volley of shots, the interceptor count went from 170 to 40 Exactly what I thought last page... I experienced this first hand, wasn't just talking out of my ass haha Thanks for testing! | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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i)awn
United States189 Posts
Looking at the rest of this thread, seems the liberator will make sure we will never see the carrier vs Terran, just like in HotS and WoL  | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On July 30 2015 10:39 i)awn wrote: Carriers have been cost unefficient Cost inefficient. HAHAHAHA. Oh wait you're serious. That's even funnier HAHAHAHA XDDDD Carriers aren't used in TvP in WOL and HOTS because it's nearly impossible to transition into air against terran (you lack the AoE to deal with marines). Against zerg, the ability from zerg to pop 20 corruptors rapidly makes the transition quite impossible too. However, carriers are the most cost efficient unit in the game if you have 8+ carriers. It just DESTROYS anything. Now with the interceptor ability of LOTV, you can pay to obliterate a zone without risking the carriers. That and the fact they are produced much faster. So yeah if they wanna make carrier viable as a unit, they have to make it so that only massing carrier, just like massing only battlecruisers, is easy to counter. Because right now, watching a few LOTV streams, I haven't seen any way to deal with carriers except killing the protoss while he's transitionning. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
Both these games my opponents played pretty terribly and should be much lower ranked than me in hots. First game I try mass widow mine and later liberators. There are cannons everywhere and the archons/colos on the ground deal with the mines, the archons also splash the liberators. http://www.file-upload.net/download-10806947/TvP-mass-mine-vs-carrier.SC2Replay.html Second game I planned to go skyterran from the start so I went straight into liberator and starports and spent all my gas in my air army with upgrades, minerals on hellbats. My army can somewhat deal with the carriers but he just warps in stalkers and I cant deal with both air and ground units at the same time and had no gas to build anything good on the ground. http://www.file-upload.net/download-10806944/TvP-carrier-vs-liberator-viking.SC2Replay.html | ||
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SkaPunk
United States471 Posts
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SkaPunk
United States471 Posts
On July 31 2015 02:34 Aquila- wrote: So here are 2 replays of me vs carriers, I try to play mech or skyterran in TvP lotv and I knew both games from the start that they are going carrier. They are already going into them when I am getting my production up, there is no way to punish them with a timing before they can get them out. Both these games my opponents played pretty terribly and should be much lower ranked than me in hots. First game I try mass widow mine and later liberators. There are cannons everywhere and the archons/colos on the ground deal with the mines, the archons also splash the liberators. http://www.file-upload.net/download-10806947/TvP-mass-mine-vs-carrier.SC2Replay.html Second game I planned to go skyterran from the start so I went straight into liberator and starports and spent all my gas in my air army with upgrades, minerals on hellbats. My army can somewhat deal with the carriers but he just warps in stalkers and I cant deal with both air and ground units at the same time and had no gas to build anything good on the ground. http://www.file-upload.net/download-10806944/TvP-carrier-vs-liberator-viking.SC2Replay.html Hey man, I watched your games and thought you did a good job. You're probably much better than me, but I thought for the sake of discussion that I would throw my two cents in. In the first game, with the widow mines, I thought you did a really good job pushing him back. Although I'm not really a fan of pushing straight into such a good defensive unit like the carrier, it did seem to be effective. I even thought that you were going to pull ahead and roll over him at points. I think the biggest issue was that you didnt expand fast enough to take your 4th and 5th. It looked like you were taking the more efficient fights, and right when it seemed like the tied had turned your income sort of went to shit. I just dont think that a protoss going carriers should expand for the terran does. I also think that maybe you could have burrowed a mine at likely expansions, which with his 1 obs, would have been a gigantic pain in the ass. Also it seemed like the mines were doing a lot of dmg to the vikings, maybe keep them in a flanking position? or in the back but ready to chase? Maybe that would leave them vulnerable to the stalkers. In game two, HOLY SHIT ADEPTS ARE GOOD AGAINST HELLBATS. Did not realize. Im not really sure what the solution was in this game. Quite clearly, the liberators were super effective against the carriers, but with 4 starports, im not sure how to deal with those stalkers and adepts. The liberators definitely werent enough to do anything except slow them down. Maybe when you see a big ground army get 1 more factory and get some tanks and hellbats to just be the core of your army? Anyway, thoughts? | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
if you dont scout them before they have like 6 carriers its really hard to take them down and you have to keep them in their base as long as possible while you build counter units | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
On July 31 2015 02:34 Aquila- wrote: So here are 2 replays of me vs carriers, I try to play mech or skyterran in TvP lotv and I knew both games from the start that they are going carrier. They are already going into them when I am getting my production up, there is no way to punish them with a timing before they can get them out. Both these games my opponents played pretty terribly and should be much lower ranked than me in hots. First game I try mass widow mine and later liberators. There are cannons everywhere and the archons/colos on the ground deal with the mines, the archons also splash the liberators. http://www.file-upload.net/download-10806947/TvP-mass-mine-vs-carrier.SC2Replay.html Second game I planned to go skyterran from the start so I went straight into liberator and starports and spent all my gas in my air army with upgrades, minerals on hellbats. My army can somewhat deal with the carriers but he just warps in stalkers and I cant deal with both air and ground units at the same time and had no gas to build anything good on the ground. http://www.file-upload.net/download-10806944/TvP-carrier-vs-liberator-viking.SC2Replay.html This is game 1. at 7 minutes you see a fleet beacon, 2 stargates with a WM drop - you lose 700 recources to 0 at 8 minutes he attacks with Adept voidray - your defense is out of position and recourses lost is now 1800 to 750. He also manages to kill your third orbital, while his nexus is already mining. at 9, you go for a counter push that deals decent damage, trading even recources and stopping his mining at his third. Your third isnt mining either, so its even economy. Recourses lost is now 8300 - 7300. // during this time you often float over 400 minerals, taking a 4th or even 5th would have been completely uncontested winning you the game. You opt to stay on even bases - note how he could never kill a new base at any point during this time. You also have a planetary at your third vs air ... the use can be debated. at 12 he takes his 4th before you do. at 14 you push, he manages to clean up all your widow mines (barely), and some hellbats join the fight, which seem pointless. Recourses lost is now favoring him by 800 more than before. While he also has a 4th, and you dont. small pokes favor him constantly, and youre falling more and more behind due to being behind in economy at 16, recourses lost is now over 4000 difference it does stay fairly even and balances out well, your widow mines take some good trades, then some bad ones. But hes always a base ahead. Harrasing those outlying bases would have been very easy with hellion runbys. at 21 point you YOLO and just send all your widow mines into his third into cannons and lose them all. what the hell?, and youre asking why you lost? You never harrass outlying bases and in the last engage there are 30 hellions and 20 liberators that get smashed by superior numbers of archon carrier colossus. That last fight was SUPER awful. You clumped up all your liberators and they all got splashed by all 3 archons. Additionally hellbats were sold out at that time. then you bad manner him ~~ cant really say you did a great job at executing the build Game 2 lets sum it up. Being behind in economy and sacrificing units is not the way to win vs carriers. Protipp : Skyterran also includes some units that can shoot ground if his composition is 50% blink stalkers. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
On July 31 2015 05:24 weikor wrote: This is game 1. at 7 minutes you see a fleet beacon, 2 stargates with a WM drop - you lose 700 recources to 0 at 8 minutes he attacks with Adept voidray - your defense is out of position and recourses lost is now 1800 to 750. He also manages to kill your third orbital, while his nexus is already mining. at 9, you go for a counter push that deals decent damage, trading even recources and stopping his mining at his third. Your third isnt mining either, so its even economy. Recourses lost is now 8300 - 7300. // during this time you often float over 400 minerals, taking a 4th or even 5th would have been completely uncontested winning you the game. You opt to stay on even bases - note how he could never kill a new base at any point during this time. You also have a planetary at your third vs air ... the use can be debated. at 12 he takes his 4th before you do. at 14 you push, he manages to clean up all your widow mines (barely), and some hellbats join the fight, which seem pointless. Recourses lost is now favoring him by 800 more than before. While he also has a 4th, and you dont. small pokes favor him constantly, and youre falling more and more behind due to being behind in economy at 16, recourses lost is now over 4000 difference it does stay fairly even and balances out well, your widow mines take some good trades, then some bad ones. But hes always a base ahead. Harrasing those outlying bases would have been very easy with hellion runbys. at 21 point you YOLO and just send all your widow mines into his third into cannons and lose them all. what the hell?, and youre asking why you lost? You never harrass outlying bases and in the last engage there are 30 hellions and 20 liberators that get smashed by superior numbers of archon carrier colossus. That last fight was SUPER awful. You clumped up all your liberators and they all got splashed by all 3 archons. Additionally hellbats were sold out at that time. then you bad manner him ~~ cant really say you did a great job at executing the build Game 2 lets sum it up. Being behind in economy and sacrificing units is not the way to win vs carriers. Protipp : Skyterran also includes some units that can shoot ground if his composition is 50% blink stalkers. So you basically watched the replay and wrote down what you saw, good job making a protocol of the games. But you never suggested anything that I can do except harassing with hellions, and I tried. There are multiple cannons at every base so widow mines or hellions dont do anything. He also has warpgate btw. Game 2 I spent all gas on making units so I survive vs his carriers. "Some units that can shoot ground". Like what? Pulling gas from nowhere to add factories, having less air units and then I make what units that are good vs stalkers and carriers? | ||
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SkaPunk
United States471 Posts
On July 31 2015 05:24 weikor wrote: This is game 1. at 7 minutes you see a fleet beacon, 2 stargates with a WM drop - you lose 700 recources to 0 at 8 minutes he attacks with Adept voidray - your defense is out of position and recourses lost is now 1800 to 750. He also manages to kill your third orbital, while his nexus is already mining. at 9, you go for a counter push that deals decent damage, trading even recources and stopping his mining at his third. Your third isnt mining either, so its even economy. Recourses lost is now 8300 - 7300. // during this time you often float over 400 minerals, taking a 4th or even 5th would have been completely uncontested winning you the game. You opt to stay on even bases - note how he could never kill a new base at any point during this time. You also have a planetary at your third vs air ... the use can be debated. at 12 he takes his 4th before you do. at 14 you push, he manages to clean up all your widow mines (barely), and some hellbats join the fight, which seem pointless. Recourses lost is now favoring him by 800 more than before. While he also has a 4th, and you dont. small pokes favor him constantly, and youre falling more and more behind due to being behind in economy at 16, recourses lost is now over 4000 difference it does stay fairly even and balances out well, your widow mines take some good trades, then some bad ones. But hes always a base ahead. Harrasing those outlying bases would have been very easy with hellion runbys. at 21 point you YOLO and just send all your widow mines into his third into cannons and lose them all. what the hell?, and youre asking why you lost? You never harrass outlying bases and in the last engage there are 30 hellions and 20 liberators that get smashed by superior numbers of archon carrier colossus. That last fight was SUPER awful. You clumped up all your liberators and they all got splashed by all 3 archons. Additionally hellbats were sold out at that time. then you bad manner him ~~ cant really say you did a great job at executing the build Game 2 lets sum it up. Being behind in economy and sacrificing units is not the way to win vs carriers. Protipp : Skyterran also includes some units that can shoot ground if his composition is 50% blink stalkers. Please try to contribute something constructive to the discussion. This was basically just condescending and unhelpful. | ||
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